Unsteady primary and metamour dynamic

[polynewgirl08]

Code names for ease:
-Sally (me - female nesting partner/primary)
-John (nesting partner/hinge)
-Ted (John’s boyfriend)

Hi everyone, I'm looking for some advice on how to handle some unsteady dynamics between my primary and metamour.

I’m Sally (26 F) and John is my nesting partner of 5 years. We have agreed to be primary partners. We have been swingers for 2 years. He recently wanted to open up to be poly in the last year, as he is bisexual.

He started dating Ted earlier this year, and while there have been challenges for me, I have grown comfortable with their relationship over time.

A common thread over the last few months is that Ted has some life/behavioral changes that he and John have agreed he needs to make. Ted has made progress, but has also made mistakes. John wants Ted to find a good woman to date, clean up his hygiene, find a career, and essentially grow up. Ted struggles with this, as these are a lot of life changes.

I try to stay removed from this, but over the past few months I’ve realized I’ve been pulled into these cycles where John gets annoyed, or feels like things are not working with Ted, and vents to me and leads me to believe they’re ending things. But then, when the reality of losing his relationship with Ted hits, he seems to forget and wants to rekindle, and the cycle starts again.

I feel upset because, like I said, I’ve gotten to a point of being comfortable with their relationship, and then when things go south I feel almost resentful towards Ted and John, like I just figured things out and now I guess we may go back to being mono.

Selfishly, being new to poly, when John expresses difficulties, I have hope that we will be the two of us again. But I also see his need and desire to have a male partner and feel bad that he is dealing with these issues. I also feel upset that we are having to focus on this in our relationship. So I have a range of emotions from anger, understanding and selfishness, to sadness.

I feel like we may benefit from being parallel poly, but our life is very intertwined and we’ve been practicing KTP. Additionally, John takes comfort in being able to lean on me for support.

Any advice on how to handle this unsteady dynamic is appreciated.

 

[Magdlyn]

Hmm, I can see how you're being exposed to the seesaw of John's feelings about Ted and their relationship. I think this could be broken down and helped by seeing whose job is whose, and letting them deal with it.

It's not your responsibility to be John's relationship therapist. You can tell John he's giving you TMI and suggest he talk to someone outside the relationship, a sympathetic friend, hopefully a poly-friendly friend, or a therapist. If he's oversharing still, you walk away, leave the room or house, or hang up the phone. Counseling John on his relationship woes is not your job. It's John and Ted's job.

John is being critical of Ted about Ted's grooming, lack of job, lack of a gf, etc. These are not John's things to fix. He can state his feelings about all this to Ted, and then give Ted the space to work on these issues, IF HE WANTS TO and sees the need. Otherwise, John could be quiet, have his dates with Ted, and leave Ted's personal growth to Ted. If Ted doesn't want to change, and John is frustrated, he can break up with Ted.

It sounds like everyone is too much in each other's business. I am sure you're all doing it out of kindness, but it's not really helping. It does sound like it would be healthier for you to spend less time with John and Ted, moving to more of a parallel poly situation.

If John isn't thrilled with Ted's lack of hygiene, he could tell Ted he doesn't want him to come over for a date unless he's taken a shower and has clean clothing on. To be honest, lots of people (men, especially) don't see the value of being clean before a date. (I don't get it, but being "nose-blind" is a thing.) If Ted still arrives dirty (as he gets used to this idea), John can request he take a shower there before the date continues. He can provide body wash, towels, a toothbrush and toothpaste.

If Ted has no job and is broke and can't help pay for when they go out on dates, John can gently discuss how to deal with this: having dates that cost nothing, for example. He can gently ask what Ted has done that week on the job search. But if Ted is actually doing nothing to seek employment, and is sponging off of John, John can decide if Ted is really an appropriate dating partner.

Again, though, all this is none of your business. You've probably already suggested similar ideas to the guys... I'd get to the point where I just wouldn't want to hear about the problems, and bow out completely. If John doesn't have you to vent to, maybe he'd give up on Ted for good sooner?

 

[polynewgirl08]

Hmm, I can see how you're being exposed to the seesaw of John's feelings about Ted and their relationship. I think this could be broken down and helped by seeing whose job is whose, and letting them deal with it.

It's not your responsibility to be John's relationship therapist. You can tell John he's giving you TMI and suggest he talk to someone outside the relationship, a sympathetic friend, hopefully a poly-friendly friend, or a therapist. If he's oversharing still, you walk away, leave the room or house, or hang up the phone. Counseling John on his relationship woes is not your job. It's John and Ted's job.

John is being critical of Ted about Ted's grooming, lack of job, lack of a gf, etc. These are not John's things to fix. He can state his feelings about all this to Ted, and then give Ted the space to work on these issues, IF HE WANTS TO and sees the need. Otherwise, John could be quiet, have his dates with Ted, and leave Ted's personal growth to Ted. If Ted doesn't want to change, and John is frustrated, he can break up with Ted.

It sounds like everyone is too much in each other's business. I am sure you're all doing it out of kindness, but it's not really helping. It does sound like it would be healthier for you to spend less time with John and Ted, moving to more of a parallel poly situation.

If John isn't thrilled with Ted's lack of hygiene, he could tell Ted he doesn't want him to come over for a date unless he's taken a shower and has clean clothing on. To be honest, lots of people (men, especially) don't see the value of being clean before a date. (I don't get it, but being "nose-blind" is a thing.) If Ted still arrives dirty (as he gets used to this idea), John can request he take a shower there before the date continues. He can provide body wash, towels, a toothbrush and toothpaste.

If Ted has no job and is broke and can't help pay for when they go out on dates, John can gently discuss how to deal with this: having dates that cost nothing, for example. He can gently ask what Ted has done that week on the job search. But if Ted is actually doing nothing to seek employment, and is sponging off of John, John can decide if Ted is really an appropriate dating partner.

Again, though, all this is none of your business. You've probably already suggested similar ideas to the guys... I'd get to the point where I just wouldn't want to hear about the problems, and bow out completely. If John doesn't have you to vent to, maybe he'd give up on Ted for good sooner?

Hi Magdlyn, thank you for the advice. The last part of what you said stuck out to me, I think my love and support for John does enable him to stick it out with Ted, but it's become messy. Almost like he wants validation from me that he's doing the right thing. To me, it's like watching a friend make bad decisions about an ex and after you give them advice, they still do what they want. It puts me in a really awful position as his lover and as a metamour myself. John doesn't like the idea of parallel poly as he wants us to be around each other and friends, but I think we can be parallel in the sense that I need to stay out of their relationship woes as I'm honestly not an unbiased party. They recently "broke up" again and John felt guilty for breaking up with Ted so now they are back in the loop again, but this time John did say that they need to go back to therapy and if we all move forward we need to lean on our poly friendly therapist.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Yes some boundaries around how much is shared seem necessary. However, I'd argue that John insisting Ted needs a "good woman" is problematic. If someone was telling me I needed a "good man", I'd be less inclined to accept what is likely more valid advice around my hygiene.

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi Magdlyn, thank you for the advice. The last part of what you said stuck out to me, I think my love and support for John does enable him to stick it out with Ted, but it's become messy. Almost like he wants validation from me that he's doing the right thing. To me, it's like watching a friend make bad decisions about an ex and after you give them advice, they still do what they want. It puts me in a really awful position as his lover and as a metamour myself.

Right. So you can stop doing that. Define your own feelings and needs, establish personal boundaries, and enforce them. Be strong. Don't let your soft feelings for John make you do things that make you feel bad.

John doesn't like the idea of parallel poly, as he wants us to be around each other and friends.

John, as the hinge, can want this. That's understandable. But you don't have to be friends with Ted, if you're getting nothing out of it but discomfort and frustration. You can say, "No thanks. I love you, but not even for you will I do things that are harmful to myself, or have no value for me." And enforce this. Tell John you want him to date Ted outside YOUR home. Or arrange to go out when Ted comes over, at least.

I think we can be parallel, in the sense that I need to stay out of their relationship woes, as I'm honestly not an unbiased party.

Right.

They recently "broke up" again, and John felt guilty for breaking up with Ted, so now they are back in the loop again. But this time John did say that they need to go back to therapy, and if we all move forward, we need to lean on our poly friendly therapist.

Yes. Don't discuss John's problems with Ted without the therapist present. You be firm with John about this. In fact, you don't need to go to therapy as a V. Or maybe, go once, just so the therapist can see the threeway dynamic, but after that, you go with John, and John goes with Ted.

 

[GalaGirl]

A common thread over the last few months is that Ted has some life/behavioral changes that he and John have agreed he needs to make. Ted has made progress, but has also made mistakes. John wants Ted to find a good woman to date, clean up his hygiene, find a career, and essentially grow up. Ted struggles with this, as these are a lot of life changes.

But does TED even want these things? Maybe he's fine how he is.

From your past threads, John wants/wanted a lot of stuff from you too, that you didn't necessarily want for yourself.

John seems to have trouble staying in his own lane.

Whether or not Ted wants to make these changes in his life, why do YOU have to know about it or care? Why is John still oversharing stuff from that side of the V over on to you?

I try to stay removed from this, but over the past few months I’ve realized I’ve been pulled into these cycles where John gets annoyed, or feels like things are not working with Ted, and vents to me and leads me to believe they’re ending things.
But then, when the reality of losing his relationship with Ted hits, he seems to forget and wants to rekindle, and the cycle starts again.

Are you witnessing John do push-pull to Ted?

In your other post he was doing it to you.

Push-Pull — Out of the FOG | Personality Disorders, Narcissism, NPD, BPD

Definition: Push-Pull - A chronic pattern of sabotaging and re-establishing closeness in a relationship without appropriate cause or reason. The Emotional Boomerang Push-Pull describes the feeling many of us experience being in a relationship with someone who suffers from a Personality Disorde

outofthefog.website

Does John have some kind of PD or other health issue? That doesn't make his behaviors ok to do to people. But it would start to make some kind of sense.

Whatever he's got going on, here is where you get to set your limit of tolerance. It doesn't matter how many strikes -- but you set a firm number-- 1, 5, 10, 50. But it cannot be 500 or 5000 or 5 million, right? You do not become a doormat.

That's where you get to say:

"John, STOP. You are leaking things from that side of the V over on to me. I am not your free therapist or relationship coach. You have an actual counselor. Talk to them about this stuff, not me." Lather, rinse, repeat for however many strikes.

Say it was 3 strikes. "John, this is now 3 times that you have leaked things from that side of the V over on to me. I have told you repeatedly I am not your free therapist or relationship coach. You have an actual counselor and you don't talk to them. You keep dumping on me. Since you cannot respect my limit, I need to bow out of this relationship. I won't date people who don't respect me. "

And you end it, because enough is ENOUGH.

You set and ENFORCE your personal boundaries.

I feel upset because, like I said, I’ve gotten to a point of being comfortable with their relationship, and then when things go south I feel almost resentful towards Ted and John, like I'd just figured things out, and now I guess we may go back to being mono.

You don't have to do this. You have agency. You have autonomy. Your consent to participate in things or not belongs to you.

If you want polyamory, and John doesn't, or you want a CALMER polyamory than this, you could drop John and keep poly-dating yourself.

If you want monogamy, you do NOT have to sign up for a new deal called "Monogamy again with John." You can opt out and go build monogamy with someone else less prone to mood swings, more able to regulate their own selves, who doesn't use you for an emotional dumpster.

Selfishly, being new to poly, when John expresses difficulties, I have hope that we will be the two of us again. But I also see his need and desire to have a male partner, and feel bad that he is dealing with these issues. I also feel upset that we are having to focus on this in our relationship. So I have a range of emotions from anger, understanding and selfishness, to sadness.

If being with John and his moods is too much of an emotional rollercoaster, you can end it and not deal in the rollercoaster any more. There's some natural turbulence when going from monogamy to polyamory. Transitions come with a lot of changes. But you get to set a limit there, too, say, 6 mos, 12 mos, or even 2 years. But there's a limit to your tolerance for "newbie mistakes and adjustments." At a certain point it is no longer "newbie stuff that we will hopefully outgrow." It is simply "We are no longer newbies. This is just a wonky and unhealthy dynamic. Period."

How's this relationship when measured against this tool?

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/rhntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_spectrum_10-13-2022.pdf

I feel like we may benefit from being parallel poly, but our life is very intertwined and we’ve been practicing KTP.

So try something new. Detangle. Be less intertwined. Do parallel, and STOP with the KTP. Just because John wants that doesn't mean you have to do it.

Additionally, John takes comfort in being able to lean on me for support.

It might be great for him that you allow him this kind of access to you, but at what cost to YOU and your health? You sound tired and drained by it all. How does it affect YOUR mental health when John whooshes stuff on you and uses you for an emotional dumpster? He gets to unload and feel better in the moment, and run back for another helping of weird, while you end up feeling slimed and put upon. Nothing really changes and the cycle repeats.

Is that a great deal for YOU? Maybe you want to change your mind about allowing him this much access to you. Maybe you want to put a limit on how much support you are actually willing to give.

Any advice on how to handle this unsteady dynamic is appreciated.

Are you still with your counselor and working on becoming less enmeshed with John? I hope so.

Be more your own person. Honor your own wants/well being. Go parallel. And if that's not enough, consider dropping John. You don't have to consent to be in this unsteady dynamic with him. He's the one bringing you drama. You don't have to be around it anymore if you don't want to be.

John doesn't like the idea of parallel poly, as he wants us to be around each other and friends

Too bad. John doesn't get to decide for the whole group. You and Ted have a voice in the things that concern you. You are already basic polite if Ted comes over for a date with John. That's good enough. You don't have to be friends with Ted, or hang out with Ted.

John did say that they need to go back to therapy

You don't need to know about John+Ted's couples therapy.

and if we all move forward we need to lean on our poly-friendly therapist.

YOU get to decide if you want to do group therapy with John and Ted. You could do individual therapy on your own WITHOUT either of them.

Here's a shocking thought -- it's okay for you to move forward WITHOUT these people. How about that? Has John ever considered it? Probably not!

It's almost like John wants to run his life, Ted's life AND your life. And he wants you all to become the PeopleBorg all enmeshed with each other.

You do NOT have to agree to ANY of that.

I'm surprised you aren't more angry about all this sloppy hinge stuff John is doing. It sounds SUFFOCATING.

I could be wrong in my impression. But I suspect it's the same as in this thread. John doesn't like the "new you" growing, learning to set boundaries, becoming healthier and less enmeshed with him. John doesn't want you becoming a healthier version of yourself, because that means he would be called upon to grow and drop his weird habits if he's going to keep up with healthier you. And he doesn't want to do that.

He prefers the "old you," who was at his beck and call doing all the emotional labor for him. Could any of that be going on here?

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Sally,

I kind of feel like John is dragging you into his issues with Ted, and that's not appropriate nor fair to you. Certainly you shouldn't have to feel like John and Ted are going to break up, only for that to be a false alarm and the cycle starts all over again. Do John and Ted see a couple's therapist? They probably should, as that would be the appropriate place for John to vent.

Kind of just repeating what the others have said,
Kevin T.

 

[Tinwen]

What does it mean that you're practicing kitchen-table poly? Did this guy, with his problems with employment and hygiene, move in, even though they've been dating for less than a year?

 

[MeeraReed]

Why does John think Ted needs to get a girlfriend? I'm with SeasonedPoly that this sounds problematic and like John might have deeper issues going on.

Does Ted himself want a girlfriend? If so, why? To explore his bisexuality?

If Ted wanted a second boyfriend rather than a girlfriend, would John be okay with that?

Why does John want Ted to have a girlfriend? To provide a "balanced" poly relationship so they each have female partners?

Or, a girlfriend to do all the emotional/physical/logistical work of teaching a grown-ass man how to have good hygiene, get a job, and grow up. Indeed, I have known many women who had to do that for their boyfriends. But usually they were monogamous straight men who had never been in a relationship, not bisexual poly men who are already in a relationship.

If Ted indeed wants a girlfriend, it might be challenging for him to find one, simply because he is in a poly relationship and that would limit his options. An experienced poly woman might not want to deal with a situation where Ted has an on-again-off-again boyfriend. Especially if the boyfriend is the one telling him he needs to get a girlfriend.

John seems kind of odd to me. Just because he wants KTP poly doesn't mean you have to agree to that kind of poly.