I am 7" long and 5.75" around. I did have a few exes who couldn't handle me at all and we did break up because of it. I really like her and luckily, I do have a wife from whom I can get penetrative sex. So I don't mind waiting for Kaitlyn.
Steve's ENM journey
- Thread starter Stevek
- Start date
Okay. Average girth is 4.6." So you're about an inch bigger than average. As you know, women's vaginas can expand to birth a baby, whose average head circumference is 13.34." Yes, this will usually burn, but it isn't meant to tear the vagina. (Hormones are released during labor to make the tissues extra stretchy.)
Anyway, please read up on vaginismus, aka pelvic floor dysfunction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaginismus#Neuromodulators
In pelvic exams by a doctor, these are the degrees of tightness/pain:
1. the person's pelvic floor has a spasm that can be relieved by reassurance.
2. the spasm is present, maintained throughout the pelvis, even with reassurance.
3. the person elevates the buttocks to avoid being examined.
4. the person elevates the buttocks, retreats, and tightly closes the thighs to avoid examination.
5. the person experiences visceral reactions, such as sweating, hyperventilation, palpitations, trembling, shaking, nausea, vomiting, losing consciousness, wanting to jump off the table, or attacking the doctor.
From reading the wiki article, I see this condition seems to be related to sexual trauma about half the time. You both seem very shy to talk about sex at all. I wonder if you both experienced being raised in a conservative environment, where sex talk was taboo. Maybe deep inside her psyche, your gf feels that having sex is bad or wrong, despite her physical desire to do it.
As for you, you haven't even been able to bring yourself to ask if she is a virgin. She's been "with" two guys, but you don't know what that means. You don't want to think or talk about her previous sexual experiences. But I think talking about this, what she's done, how it went, was there pain, etc., etc., would help immeasurably. She may have been sexually assaulted once or many times. So very many women have been. (Latest stats say more than half of all women have been sexually assaulted with physical contact, one in four raped. )
In polyamory, we can't express enough how important open honest communication is. It can be hard, but almost invariably brings the partners closer.
Anyway, please read up on vaginismus, aka pelvic floor dysfunction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaginismus#Neuromodulators
In pelvic exams by a doctor, these are the degrees of tightness/pain:
1. the person's pelvic floor has a spasm that can be relieved by reassurance.
2. the spasm is present, maintained throughout the pelvis, even with reassurance.
3. the person elevates the buttocks to avoid being examined.
4. the person elevates the buttocks, retreats, and tightly closes the thighs to avoid examination.
5. the person experiences visceral reactions, such as sweating, hyperventilation, palpitations, trembling, shaking, nausea, vomiting, losing consciousness, wanting to jump off the table, or attacking the doctor.
From reading the wiki article, I see this condition seems to be related to sexual trauma about half the time. You both seem very shy to talk about sex at all. I wonder if you both experienced being raised in a conservative environment, where sex talk was taboo. Maybe deep inside her psyche, your gf feels that having sex is bad or wrong, despite her physical desire to do it.
As for you, you haven't even been able to bring yourself to ask if she is a virgin. She's been "with" two guys, but you don't know what that means. You don't want to think or talk about her previous sexual experiences. But I think talking about this, what she's done, how it went, was there pain, etc., etc., would help immeasurably. She may have been sexually assaulted once or many times. So very many women have been. (Latest stats say more than half of all women have been sexually assaulted with physical contact, one in four raped. )
In polyamory, we can't express enough how important open honest communication is. It can be hard, but almost invariably brings the partners closer.
I just realized I missed your post #60! I am glad you've begun speaking more openly! Good start. Fingers crossed.
This weekend was long. My son found condoms in my glovebox that created some minor drama. It is resolved now.
I finally spoke to Kaitlyn about what happened on Thursday. I started by saying that we need to have open communication around topics like sex.
I asked her if she'd ever had penetrative sex, and her silence immediately answered my questions. After prodding, she said she never had any penetrative sex. Just oral. I felt bad and also weird. I really didn't expect to have sex with a virgin when we stared going down the poly path.
I asked her if she'd ever used a dildo. She had a mortified look and refused to look into my eyes. After some hesitation she said she never used one, but she did find her sister's dildo in her sister's room.
We wanted to try having sex once again and went to her place. We had lube and condoms, so we tried, but I couldn't even get my mushroom head in. There was not a lot of foreplay this time, as I had to leave, since I promised my kids that we would watch a movie.
I told her that I will get a dildo for her so that she can practice. She just nodded.
I finally spoke to Kaitlyn about what happened on Thursday. I started by saying that we need to have open communication around topics like sex.
I asked her if she'd ever had penetrative sex, and her silence immediately answered my questions. After prodding, she said she never had any penetrative sex. Just oral. I felt bad and also weird. I really didn't expect to have sex with a virgin when we stared going down the poly path.
I asked her if she'd ever used a dildo. She had a mortified look and refused to look into my eyes. After some hesitation she said she never used one, but she did find her sister's dildo in her sister's room.
We wanted to try having sex once again and went to her place. We had lube and condoms, so we tried, but I couldn't even get my mushroom head in. There was not a lot of foreplay this time, as I had to leave, since I promised my kids that we would watch a movie.
I told her that I will get a dildo for her so that she can practice. She just nodded.
Seems Magdlyn's guess was right.
I hate to say it, but the next question seems to be: "Do you really want to lose your virginity with me? If so, why? Why did you choose a married man instead of a boyfriend you're in love with?" I mean, there are a lot of legitimate reasons to do so, but it IS a rather unusual choice.
Thanks for the reality check. I am gonna talk to her.Seems Magdlyn's guess was right.
I hate to say it, but the next question seems to be: "Do you really want to lose your virginity with me? If so, why? Why did you choose a married man instead of a boyfriend you're in love with?" I mean, there are a lot of legitimate reasons to do so, but it IS a rather unusual choice.
Well, his wife says he's a snack.
And as I said upthread, maybe she chose an older, more experienced man on purpose. It's so excellent that they've started talking now. Maybe another 19-year old wouldn't be as willing to approach this matter with sensitivity, or be as discreet around the whole thing (not telling his buddies, I mean).Kaitlyn has a great degree of shame around sex, it seems. She seems very embarrassed, even after having dated you now for over two months, and having kissed and groped you multiple times.
She was "silent" and needed prodding when you asked if she were a virgin. She was "mortified" to discuss dildoes. She just nodded when you told her you'd buy her one. I doubt she will practice with it on her own. I guess I meant that you could use it on her as part of foreplay. Although even an average penis-sized dildo will probably be too much for her, I am starting to think.
Just keep talking. Hopefully it (the talking about sex) will become easier the more you do it. 30 minutes of oral didn't relax her spasm, but more talking and trust might.
BTW, Emma wouldn't need to take the kids out for days to make space for you to have privacy with Kaitlyn. Just a few hours would suffice.
Maybe she chose someone more experienced because her previous attempts failed too. Or not! We don't know.Well, his wife says he's a snack.
I find it important to know why people do poly, and in this case, it's especially sensitive.
You mean well, but this could be perceived as pressure to perform, like using a dildo is something she has to do or should have been doing, so just be gentle in how you approach this. Maybe she has no reason to use one for pleasure right now, I don't think I had one at her age.
Right. She may or may not have attempted intercourse before; she may or may not have been sexually assaulted. It certainly seems she holds a lot of shame around sex, perhaps stemming from childhood indoctrination (since she's just out of childhood).
For example, members of the LDS (Mormon) church are strongly told that masturbation and premarital sex is wrong, sinful. I've seen videos where Mormon leaders (bishops) are seriously and urgently preaching that masturbation is akin to murder, just as bad as murder, because doing it "murders the soul." Fooling around with your bf or gf is seen as a sin, which must be confessed to the bishop. It can take much penance to be forgiven, and can prevent being "sealed" in marriage in the church, and lead to social ostracization, and of course, Mormon hell.
Some young Mormons hold such negative impressions of sex that even when they do get married, they can't have sex, or enjoy it if they do. Prior to getting engaged, some/many conservative Christians and Mormons are only allowed to go on big group dates. After becoming engaged, they might kiss, but the degree of this varies. Then they are just supposed to jump into PIV on their wedding night, after years of repressing their desires. You can see how scary that must feel.
In this case, by "doing poly," I guess you mean dating a married man who is in an open relationship. Maybe she wants to keep her independence, and prior to this she was made to only date young men from her church, where everyone is meant to marry young and start having babies. That's just speculation on my part.
When I suggested a dildo of an average-penis size, I didn't mean for Steve to suggest Kaitlyn use it on herself. I meant, during a sexual encounter together, for Steve to try inserting more than one finger, then this smallish dildo, before trying to insert his large penis. (However, his last attempt at intercourse with her was rushed and barely involved foreplay, unfortunately, with negative results, causing more disappointment and probably more shame.)
Tinwen, if you look at the wiki on vaginismus, and read around the internet about it, it's a condition that often requires medical help, psychotherapy, and physical therapy, including "reverse Kegels," and using dilators of increasing size, starting with ones about the diameter of a finger. You can see from the list I posted above about degrees of spasm and reaction that Kaitlyn is either a 3 or 4 on the list of severity. That's why I suggest her getting in to see a doctor about this. However, with her degree of emotional discomfort, I am guessing it would take some work and a lot of support to even get her to that point.
On the other hand, many people can greatly enjoy sex without PIV. There are many wonderful things to do that don't involve penetration. As a pansexual, I am all in favor of "outercourse." Perhaps this couple could just take PIV off the table, take the pressure off, and enjoy what is working for them so far, kissing, grinding, fondling, oral, etc. Heck, even cuddling naked in a bed beats making out in a truck.
Thanks for your posts. I am more confused and weirded out by what was revealed by Kaitlyn in the last few days.
As you folks, know Kaitlyn is the sister of Amy who first asked me out. Kaitlyn knew a lot about me before I knew about her existence. Kaitlyn knew that I was married and had kids. And according to her, she still liked me and wanted to be with me, despite me being married.
Now comes the big revelation-- she said that she is not poly. She is not interested in dating anyone else. She said she only has eyes for me. She said that she developed a huge crush on me the day she saw my pictures.
Then there were lot of tears when I asked her why she wanted to lose her virginity to me and suggested that she can find someone closer to her age. She thought I was breaking up with her.
I don't think she outright lied to me, but there were many lies by omission. I really like her and care for her, but this whole revelation is confusing me.
P.S. She also admitted that her previous sexual experience was not with guys but with a woman and with someone who identifies as a transman. So I am the first guy whom she has been with. Another lie by omission.
As you folks, know Kaitlyn is the sister of Amy who first asked me out. Kaitlyn knew a lot about me before I knew about her existence. Kaitlyn knew that I was married and had kids. And according to her, she still liked me and wanted to be with me, despite me being married.
Now comes the big revelation-- she said that she is not poly. She is not interested in dating anyone else. She said she only has eyes for me. She said that she developed a huge crush on me the day she saw my pictures.
Then there were lot of tears when I asked her why she wanted to lose her virginity to me and suggested that she can find someone closer to her age. She thought I was breaking up with her.
I don't think she outright lied to me, but there were many lies by omission. I really like her and care for her, but this whole revelation is confusing me.
P.S. She also admitted that her previous sexual experience was not with guys but with a woman and with someone who identifies as a transman. So I am the first guy whom she has been with. Another lie by omission.
Oh. At least now the gaps have been filled in.
This is no textbook situation where we can give tried and true poly advice.
Take your time to work out what's best for each of you.
My very personal opinion? It's perhaps not wise to choose the poly lifestyle because you like someone's picture, but it happened, and now she's head over heels in love with you, and you like her. I don't think it's bad to continue to date and have sex at this point. "I'm having a huge crush" is not a terrible reason to have first sex with a guy
It's important, however, that there aren't many false hopes or further miscommunication about what this relationship is. Be transparent, and don't let her build false hopes.
This is no textbook situation where we can give tried and true poly advice.
Take your time to work out what's best for each of you.My very personal opinion? It's perhaps not wise to choose the poly lifestyle because you like someone's picture, but it happened, and now she's head over heels in love with you, and you like her. I don't think it's bad to continue to date and have sex at this point. "I'm having a huge crush" is not a terrible reason to have first sex with a guy
It's important, however, that there aren't many false hopes or further miscommunication about what this relationship is. Be transparent, and don't let her build false hopes.
This is about YOUR integrity. You'll be a good husband and hinge and won't let yourself be pulled away.
If she's clearly unhappy in a non-monogamous relationship and doesn't reflect that, you might even need to let her go. Of course, to know that, you'd have to talk regularly about the relationship. It's not a decision to make overnight, and, imho, not a decision to make right now.
Kaitlin isn't a cowgirl. She's inexperienced with love, and she's IN love, so much so that she's willing to be a secondary/mistress. It's quite likely she had no fucking idea how hard this would hit her emotionally.
There's no telling if she can make non-monogamy work for her once NRE is over. It's quite normal even for poly people to only want one partner few months into a relationship (unless they have preexisting ones, and then they need to take care to focus on their original partner too! --- this could still happen to you, watch for that.
)That's what I meant by "don't let her build false hopes". She will never replace your wife, and she may at some point not be the only one you have sex with besides your wife.
Of course, if everyone is in, you could try building some lasting co-primary structure, but it's too early to tell if this makes any sense at all. You can discuss this option with wife as a hypothetical, but see if your relationship with Kaitlin lasts at least a year before working towards such an arrangement with such a young girl.
Don't harbor false hopes, either. Kaitlin is likely to leave you for a monogamous guy further down the road.
Being honest and transparent about a hard situation may hurt, but the disappointment of dishonesty hurts much more. So stick to your agreements and keep communicating them-- you are open/poly because you wanted more sex and romance in your life, but you're not the husband who leaves his wife for the young chick, and as far as I understand, your marriage isn't even ready for a fully non-hierarchical arrangement.
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Even if it's not a long-term match, since you care for Kaitlyn, you can help her a lot. Despite practical limitations, you can still be a thoughtful attentive partner (and from what you said, I believe you are).
You can find out together if the sexual issue you encountered loosens up with some patience and reassurance, or if it's indeed a condition requiring medical attention, as Magdlyn suggests.
You can teach her about sex and relationships.
You can help her articulate her needs, wants and boundaries, so that next time she starts a relationship, mono or poly, she goes into it with intention, informed, ready and able to communicate.
You can find out together if the sexual issue you encountered loosens up with some patience and reassurance, or if it's indeed a condition requiring medical attention, as Magdlyn suggests.
You can teach her about sex and relationships.
You can help her articulate her needs, wants and boundaries, so that next time she starts a relationship, mono or poly, she goes into it with intention, informed, ready and able to communicate.
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I finally told everything to my wife, Emma. I told her that Kaitlyn is not poly and she never had penetrative sex with anyone else and I am the first dude she ever dated. Emma was surprised and we discussed what to do next. I told Emma that I am willing to stop seeing Kaitlyn if she is not comfortable with what has happened. She said that she is glad I am discussing this with her.
She also echoed someone else's words here saying that Kaitlyn might just consider this a fling and I shouldn't be surprised if she breaks up with me in future. She told me to not do anything stupid and break her heart. Emma told me that Kaitlyn should be able to look back at this time with happiness and not regret and sorrow.
She also echoed someone else's words here saying that Kaitlyn might just consider this a fling and I shouldn't be surprised if she breaks up with me in future. She told me to not do anything stupid and break her heart. Emma told me that Kaitlyn should be able to look back at this time with happiness and not regret and sorrow.
It can be hard to decide how much to tell your SO about your OSO's personal issues, whether they are related to sex or not. I'm sure it's been worrying you and you wanted to tell Emma, who is probably the only polyamorous person you know in real life, and your best friend.
I personally don't think it's any of Emma's business or choice for her to tell you whether you can keep seeing Kaitlyn, even though she is so new to dating men.
Keep talking to Kaitlyn about her feelings about dating men, any fears she may have, traumatic experiences, etc. There might be memories she is burying that are getting triggered. I've even known men who were groomed, assaulted, and raped as young kids or young teens, who had semi-buried the memories out of shame or confusion, but which caused some issues later in life, even a decade or two later.
I personally don't think it's any of Emma's business or choice for her to tell you whether you can keep seeing Kaitlyn, even though she is so new to dating men.
Keep talking to Kaitlyn about her feelings about dating men, any fears she may have, traumatic experiences, etc. There might be memories she is burying that are getting triggered. I've even known men who were groomed, assaulted, and raped as young kids or young teens, who had semi-buried the memories out of shame or confusion, but which caused some issues later in life, even a decade or two later.
Your wife is a kind woman and I'm happy it went well.