Throuple help!

[Dolly76]

Hi! My first post! Really hoping for some insight, suggestions and support.

I'm Dolly, 49, in a throuple relationship with Steve and Louise for 18 months. Steve and Louise have been married for 30 years and this is their first and only ever throuple relationship.

They decided to dip their toe in the water 6 years ago as Louise is (obvs) bisexual and Steve wanted to support that, but found it difficult to find a female who was more than curious and who wanted a serious set-up. We met 2.5 years ago in a quad. That didn't work out and long story short, here I am. There is a lot to what got us here, but most of it not relevant to this post. Maybe that's for another day.

Louise has a medical condition which means that sometimes she feels inadequate, although in reality nothing about our life stops because of it. She also suffers from some mental health issues, partly because of her condition, but mostly because of childhood trauma. This manifested first when she was 19 following the birth of their first child. She is 51 now. She is seeing a psychiatrist weekly.

Steve, 54, has his own issues, but deals quietly. He is a strong man, mentally and physically, and interested only in ensuring that we are both happy. Selfless. In touch with his feminine side in terms of communication and emotions.

There is A LOT of love going all the way around and it's quite remarkable how this has developed and the depth of feeling in all the dynamics.

But we have an ongoing issue. Louise, because of her problems, from time to time will see things that aren't there. She will compare the relationships and decide that Steve and I have more fun (in every way) together, that the feelings are deeper etc., etc., with me and him than they are with him and her, or me and her. To me this is ludicrous! They have been together for so long, their relationship is solid, they are madly in love with each other still, after all this time, yet still she questions it, even sometimes going so far as to say that we are with her because we think we should be, like a duty thing!

She is now saying that sex as a three is too difficult, and it hurts her, as although in her sane moments she knows it's untrue, she sees isolated actions and decides that they indicate a preference or a better way. We have never done one-on-one sex, so this is a problem now. We have always all preferred a three-way interaction, and Steve and I are adamant that we don't think this is going to work for us.

How do we navigate this? I love them both more than I have ever loved anyone in a monogamous relationship prior to this. I do not want it to go wrong, but I can't help feel that I am the issue, while both of them are adamant I am not the issue, and they both want us all to stay together. I have always said I wouldn't walk out on them if we hit an issue, and I don't want to, and won't do that.

So what next?!

D xx

 

[LaminarFlow]

Hey Dolly, welcome.

I'm sorry this is happening.

A triad is fulfilling 4 relationships
Steve + Louise
Louise + You
You + Steve
Steve + Louise + You

So every dyad has to have their own relationship to find a certain balance.

What does Louise mean with isolated actions? Inside or outside the bedroom?
If you don't have just one-on-one sex, is Louise not okay with having you and Steve sex whilst she is next to you? You could still involve her with hugs and kisses, and not give her the physical work because she has to think about it too much.

Is there any way you could involve Louise more in the "fun" or just give her extra attention when she comes back from the psychiatrist? It just sounds she's mentally taxed.

 

[Dolly76]

Hey Dolly, welcome.

I'm sorry this is happening.

A triad is fulfilling 4 relationships
Steve + Louise
Louise + You
You + Steve
Steve + Louise + You

So every dyad has to have their own relationship to find a certain balance.

What does Louise mean with isolated actions? Inside or outside the bedroom?
If you don't have just one-on-one sex, is Louise not okay with having you and Steve sex whilst she is next to you? You could still involve her with hugs and kisses, and not give her the physical work because she has to think about it too much.

Is there any way you could involve Louise more in the "fun" or just give her extra attention when she comes back from the psychiatrist? It just sounds she's mentally taxed.

Thanks for your reply!

The isolated actions could be interactions inside or outside of the bedroom. Things that then don't feel balanced to her. In reality, as I am the 'newbie,' the interactions between them inside and outside of the bedroom are far more practised, easy, normal and close than my interactions with them individually. I don't have a problem with this, as I understand the reality of our relationship, and that a longstanding marriage would or should feel and look more connected.

It's not that she is physically tired and cannot join in sex, although sometimes there are challenges. It's that mentally she is making my and Steve's sex out to be something closer maybe, or in her eyes better, or more. It really is not the case.

She sees the psychiatrist online. We always make sure we both have the hour after her appointment to sit down and support her after it happens. She shares what she psychiatrist has said and sometimes we are asked to do things to help, which we always do.

We can be no more supportive and understanding and affectionate and loving and caring than we are, but something needs to change, as we are in this endless cycle of the same issue.

D x

 

[LaminarFlow]

Thanks for your reply!

Happy to help!

The isolated actions could be interactions inside or outside of the bedroom. Things that then don't feel balanced to her.
In reality, as I am the 'newbie,' the interactions between them, inside and outside of the bedroom are far more practised, easy, normal and close than my interactions with them individually. I don't have a problem with this, as I understand the reality of our relationship, and that a longstanding marriage would or should feel and look more connected.

Just because you're the "newbie" does not mean you have to diminish your connection to each of them individually. You have also the right to feel secure, valued and able to live and feel out your NRE in this relationship.

It's not that she is physically tired and cannot join in sex, although sometimes there are challenges. It's that mentally she is making mine and Steve's sex out to be something closer maybe or in her eyes better or more. It really is not the case.

Would you three be willing to go to a poly-friendly therapist together and separately that focused on this? It seems the dynamic is a mentally taxing issue that can only be resolved through Louise working out and owning her own feelings.

She sees the psychiatrist online. We always make sure we both have the hour after her appointment to sit down and support her after it happens. She shares what she psychiatrist has said and sometimes we are asked to do things to help, which we always do.

We can be no more supportive and understanding and affectionate and loving and caring than we are, but something needs to change as we are in this endless cycle of the same issue.

 

[Magdlyn]

This is an interesting situation, since happy successful and long-lasting triads (throuples) are actually quite rare in the world of polyamory. Quads are also rare. Your quad fell apart, for reasons you have not shared. I wonder if something similar happened in the quad as is now happening in your triad.

Of course, comparison, jealousy and insecurity are extremely common in polyamory. We have all been raised within in a culture that expects and supports monogamy. Even though same-gender sex and love has more support now, monogamy is still expected.

Many couples new to polyamory come from swinging, where it is MF-couple based, with some FF sex allowed (generally not much MM sex allowed or supported). The expectation in swinging is that there won't be romance between couples, just friendship and casual sex. Of course, this often backfires, and love does develop. That has led to the increasing popularity of polyamory.

However, some couples decide that even if they are polyamorous, they will only love and have sex together, with one shared partner, or one other shared couple. They seem to think this will prevent jealousy. However, the reality is, it can and does INCREASE jealousy, comparison, feelings of inadequacy, as you are experiencing. Each love between each person will be different in quality, and find expression in different ways. You aren't all clones of each other. You are an individual. So is Louise. So is Steve.

When you say you three only do threesome sex, do you mean that once Steve and Louise began the quad with you and your ex, and now have continued with just you, that they gave up on having one-on-one sex with just each other at all, and only ever have sex with you (and your ex, when they were in the picture)? Or do they indeed have one-on-one sex with each other, but you never get to have one-on-one sex with either of them? Do you also go out on (vanilla) dates only as a threesome, or do any of the dyads get to go out on dates one-on-one?

I don't know if one-on-one activities would help Louise at all, but maybe she misses that with Steve, if it just never happens anymore.

I don't know what her mental issues are. It's great she's getting therapy. Rather than allowing yourselves to be so concerned, could you take a step back and let Louise deal with Louise problems sometimes? Not everything is something for you and Steve to "solve."

My partner suffers from ADHD/anxiety/depression, and sometimes when she's having a fit about something or another, I just take a step back and let her go off and fuss and whatever, without stepping in to try and "solve" it for her. I've found that actually empowers her and is more effective, in the long run. I just think, or say, "There you go again. That's how you are," and take myself out of it. She does having coping skills, she just has to practice them. She's had 7 years of intensive therapy, and takes meds, and knows what she needs to do to feel better. I will of course be loving to her after her crisis, but I don't feel it's my part to solve her mini-crises. You can't argue rationally with someone who is being irrational.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Dolly76,

I kind of feel like you should all just power through your emotions, as the issues here are strictly emotional, you and Louise are feeling things that are not actually happening. A poly-friendly therapist might be able to help, if you can find one. The bottom line is, don't break up over stuff that isn't really happening. Sit with your emotions and let them happen, but also have some faith in what you know objectively.

Just my 2¢,
Kevin T.

 

[Dolly76]

This is an interesting situation, since happy successful and long-lasting triads (throuples) are actually quite rare in the world of polyamory. Quads are also rare. Your quad fell apart, for reasons you have not shared. I wonder if something similar happened in the quad as is now happening in your triad.

Of course, comparison, jealousy and insecurity are extremely common in polyamory. We have all been raised within in a culture that expects and supports monogamy. Even though same-gender sex and love has more support now, monogamy is still expected.

Many couples new to polyamory come from swinging, where it is MF-couple based, with some FF sex allowed (generally not much MM sex allowed or supported). The expectation in swinging is that there won't be romance between couples, just friendship and casual sex. Of course, this often backfires, and love does develop. That has led to the increasing popularity of polyamory.

However, some couples decide that even if they are polyamorous, they will only love and have sex together, with one shared partner, or one other shared couple. They seem to think this will prevent jealousy. However, the reality is, it can and does INCREASE jealousy, comparison, feelings of inadequacy, as you are experiencing. Each love between each person will be different in quality, and find expression in different ways. You aren't all clones of each other. You are an individual. So is Louise. So is Steve.

When you say you three only do threesome sex, do you mean that once Steve and Louise began the quad with you and your ex, and now have continued with just you, that they gave up on having one-on-one sex with just each other at all, and only ever have sex with you (and your ex, when they were in the picture)? Or do they indeed have one-on-one sex with each other, but you never get to have one-on-one sex with either of them? Do you also go out on (vanilla) dates only as a threesome, or do any of the dyads get to go out on dates one-on-one?

I don't know if one-on-one activities would help Louise at all, but maybe she misses that with Steve, if it just never happens anymore.

I don't know what her mental issues are. It's great she's getting therapy. Rather than allowing yourselves to be so concerned, could you take a step back and let Louise deal with Louise problems sometimes? Not everything is something for you and Steve to "solve."

My partner suffers from ADHD/anxiety/depression, and sometimes when she's having a fit about something or another, I just take a step back and let her go off and fuss and whatever, without stepping in to try and "solve" it for her. I've found that actually empowers her and is more effective, in the long run. I just think, or say, "There you go again. That's how you are," and take myself out of it. She does having coping skills, she just has to practice them. She's had 7 years of intensive therapy, and takes meds, and knows what she needs to do to feel better. I will of course be loving to her after her crisis, but I don't feel it's my part to solve her mini-crises. You can't argue rationally with someone who is being irrational.

The quad broke down because my ex was very controlling, manipulative and liked things his way both in our relationship and in the way of playing the puppeteer, or so he thought, in the quad. He pushed things forward whilst at the same time feeding Steve and Louise with stories about things that I was doing outside of the quad which were simply untrue. In hindsight I would say he had some kind of issue with split personality.

When the quad was together, we started with my ex and me allowed to have other encounters in a swinging fashion, but I was not comfortable with this, and Steve and Louise wanted an exclusive arrangement. At that time, we had sex in our couples and within the quad. On one occasion each dyad swapped around on their own, but this was a one off.

Within our set up now, yes, you are right, we are only having threeway sex. Steve and Louise stopped having sex on their own when I joined them. Steve will not have sex on his own with me. He feels that it's wrong and this would cause guilt and also trigger Louise's mental health issues. Louise is happy to have one-on-one with me on an occasional basis and I do agree, she probably would like sex with Steve alone but both have said that on occasions that have presented themselves they have not done it, as they would feel guilty. Louise definitely does not want me to have sex with Steve on one-on-one. Everyone says that the ideal is that we all work towards a time when it's comfortable for this to happen in the future, but I'm not sure how this would play out.

Louise and I go out together all the time. We have said that moving forward, we will make coffee dates out with all dyads separately so everyone has their own time. There are also leisure things that each dyad likes to do together inside the house whilst the other is doing something else. We have said we will focus on that as strengthening the dyads too.

Louise has been diagnosed with BPD by the psychiatrist. She has feelings of low self-worth because of her illness and also her childhood trauma. You are right, Steve and I are big 'fixers,' and can't bear to see her in a state of turmoil, but when she won't speak up and share her issues to let us help her, this makes everyone on edge trying to work out what they have done wrong. The atmosphere and connections then suffer. If I thought she could help herself, I would leave her to it, but it does not work like that.

I am now scared that this is going to break down. Everyone says that they don't want that to happen. I have raised that if we keep doing things the same way and expecting a different outcome we are not being realistic. I want this to work, but I am not in control of the outcomes. We are all at sea! x

 

[Dolly76]

I kind of feel like you should all just power through your emotions, as the issues here are strictly emotional, you and Louise are feeling things that are not actually happening. A poly-friendly therapist might be able to help, if you can find one. The bottom line is, don't break up over stuff that isn't really happening. Sit with your emotions and let them happen, but also have some faith in what you know objectively.

I'm with you on this one, except I'm clear on the reality of everything. It's Louise who seems to think that despite so much love, attention and care to help her and make things as easy and comfortable as possible, that we are only with her out of duty or necessity.

I am definitely not prepared to break up on false beliefs.

D x

 

[FeralGeek]

Borderline Personality Disorder is insanely treatment resistant and is one of the few mental health issues that regularly get passed on to kids because of how it integrates into personality and worldview. My ex-mother-in-law has it, my ex inherited a slew of similar traits and it… well, I never figured out how to make it work.

So good that she’s seriously working on this with her therapist, etc., but she’s going to struggle regardless of your situation. I’d recommend some therapy for yourself just to have an unbiased voice reminding you that her insecurities are not your responsibility.

 

[Dolly76]

Borderline Personality Disorder is insanely treatment resistant and is one of the few mental health issues that regularly get passed on to kids because of how it integrates into personality and worldview. My ex-mother-in-law has it, my ex inherited a slew of similar traits and it… well, I never figured out how to make it work.

So good that she’s seriously working on this with her therapist, etc, but she’s going to struggle regardless of your situation. I’d recommend some therapy for yourself just to have an unbiased voice reminding you that her insecurities are not your responsibility.

I have done a lot of reading about BPD and am encouraging Steve and Louise to do so too.

I will seek out some therapy for myself. The stuff I have read online has helped on realising that I am not the cause of her issues, which was my concern.

 

[FeralGeek]

I have done a lot of reading about BPD and am encouraging Steve and Louise to do so too.

I will seek out some therapy for myself. The stuff I have read online has helped on realising that I am not the cause of her issues, which was my concern.

I neglected to reiterate what you already arrived at, namely that people with BPD struggle with relationships across the board, even with monogamous partners. Being able to recognize where you are clearly not “the problem” (for lack of a more accurate/diplomatic term) is the most important thing for your own mental health if you’re going to stick it out.

She’s so lucky to have you both in her life. I hope she gets to feel that way sometimes.

 

[Magdlyn]

I'm sorry Louise struggles with this issue. One of my daughters was born with a mental glitch that was finally diagnosed as BPD when she was in her teens. It was a nightmare raising her in many ways, even though she does have many great qualities as a person. I've had to draw strict boundaries with her since then.

The book that helped me the most was Stop Walking on Eggshells. As you said, you and Steve are always on edge.

 

[GalaGirl]

I hope you feel a bit better for the vent. I read the whole thread. I'm just going to throw out ideas, okay? Some might stick to the wall and some might not. Make of it what you will. Maybe it helps give you other angles to think about.

But we have an ongoing issue. Louise, because of her problems, from time to time will see things that aren't there. She will compare the relationships and decide that Steve and I have more fun (in every way) together, that the feelings are deeper etc., etc., with me and him than they are with him and her, or me and her. To me this is ludicrous!

Why ludicrous? NRE lasts 6-24 mos. You and Steve are in the NRE window; so are you and Louise. But NRE for Steve + Louise was a long time ago. It's okay for Louise to miss that phase with him.

Do you just think that in private, or you actually tell her she is being ludicrous or silly?

They have been together for so long, their relationship is solid, they are madly in love with each other still, after all this time, yet still she questions it, even sometimes going so far as to say that we are with her because we think we should be, like a duty thing!

It sounds like you live with them. Some of that might be the mental illness talking. Was it any different in the home before you moved in? You'd have to ask Steve. And would it be better to change the living situation to a place with a different floor plan, or get a duplex, or something else for the long term?

She is now saying that sex as a three is too difficult.

Group sex is not a requirement in polyamory. Some people like both group sex and polyamory. Some want only group sex. Some want only polyamory.

Not sharing group sex right now means she doesn't have to witness things that her brain later misinterprets. So why not take a break or end all that?

It's also possible that the NRE for the idea of group sex and novelty wore off, especially after the weird ex from the former quad. What healing have you all done in regards to how that quad with the ex affected you and the group as a whole?

We have never done one-on-one sex, so this is a problem now.

Why is it a problem? You could have been doing it all along.

So... start doing 1:1 sex now.

• Louise + Steve
• Louise + you
• You + Steve

Why any of you feel guilt for sharing 1:1 sex is something y'all have to sort out. Why would you feel guilty about it? Where did this guilt even come from? Is it leftovers from the controlling ex?

All the dyads need their own date times too.

• Louise + Steve
• Louise + you
• You + Steve

Get it on the regular schedule. Then when Louise gets off in "brain gremlins" she has something concrete to look at that is fair to help her self soothe. The calendar schedule shows everyone is getting fair attention, time in 1:1, and there's also regular group hang-out time. She's not being treated like a group-sex-dispenser machine. She is not "too much."

Group sex, like anything else, is a skill one has to develop. People aren't instantly good at sharing group sex. It may be that in a quad it felt "even" to Louise, because people were in pairs, even in the same room. But a trio feels weird.

We have always all preferred a three-way interaction, and Steve and I are adamant that we don't think this is going to work for us.

Even when it was a quad y'all did trio group sex as a preference?

Why "adamant?" You can't demand Louise provide threesome sex.

Can you and Steve get your threesomes elsewhere with a partner who is up for that?

You are all newbies to polyamory, triads, group sex, and being cohabitating roomies. Be okay being new. And dang, y'all decided to do a bunch of new stuff at once. For Louise, the "whee!" NRE stuff may be fading, and now she's on the emotional roller coaster because each one of those things would be hard on its own. But this is like one leg in this roller coaster cart and the other leg in that roller coaster cart... it's a lot.

You can see a visual aid for stages of emotional change here. You can Google for others.

Navigating Change: Embracing the Emotional Roller Coaster - Sreejith Krishnan

Picture this: you're driving along a scenic route, enjoying the breeze and the beautiful scenery. Suddenly, your GPS ann... - Sreejith Krishnan

sreejithkrishnan.com

While more written is about in kink, like "sub drop" or "top drop," group sex is also a lot of stimulus. Louise could be confusing "group sex drop" with her mental health things. Or she could be having BOTH drop AND mental health things.

And if a new stimulus comes along, people don't get to clear all the adrenaline and other hormones. It's like chronic stress.

It's Louise who seems to think that despite so much love, attention and care to help her and make things as easy and comfortable as possible, that we are only with her out of duty or necessity.

So she has a core belief that she is a "burden" and doesn't like herself much, so she believes that people don't like her and are "faking." That's her mental health stuff. Whatever you and Steve do to "refill" the relief is only temporary, because she's the one punching holes in her own bucket and it leaks away. Until she stops punching holes, and learns to fill her own bucket, this is going to be a pattern for her, so you have to think about how much energy you want to give towards bucket refills. You can't be like filling the endless hole.

You are right, Steve and I are big 'fixers,' and can't bear to see her in a state of turmoil, but when she won't speak up and share her issues to let us help her, this makes everyone on edge trying to work out what they have done wrong.

Unasked for help is not actual help. Your need to "fix" things might feel like you running right over Louise, especiallu if she has a hard time using her words to ask for help or to say "No thanks." People not respecting her voice is not going to make her feel valuable. It's just gonna fuel the "I'm worthless" thinking.

Why does other people having some feelings wig you out so much that you jump up to fix it, so you don't have to see them like that? Is this rooted in yout family of origin? Rooted in the manipulative/abusive ex? Do you need to think about www.coda.org? Or again... a counselor?

You don't need to "prove" your value here by jumping up to fix everything. If Steve is doing that and it triggers you into that "fixer" mode too... how come? Why not wait until Louise actually asks for help?

Are you good at sitting with someone? Not fixing their hard time for them. Just letting them be and sitting with them so they don't have to feel the hard things alone? Or offering a break and distraction from it, like respite? Is this a skill you need to grow?

You are dating a mental health patient. Some days are going to be good ones and others won't be. If you don't want to "see her like that" why are you dating her? Or living together with her?

Do you all have your own bedrooms in this floor plan at least?

I am definitely not prepared to break up on false beliefs.

If you are going to date a patient with chronic mental health stuff from her BPD, maybe you need to educate yourself and also see your own counselor for support in all that, and to determine where the line is between "appropriate and healthy level support" and "enabling poor behavior" lies?

That's another reason for having your own place. You'd get breaks from it all. And honestly, Louise would get breaks from seeing you and Steve together too, reducing her stimulus.

Galagirl

 

[GalaGirl]

I don't know if this helps you from the caregiving angle, but my father has dementia and a WHOLE bunch of other mental health stuff.

If I thought she could help herself, I would leave her to it, but it does not work like that.

You think Louise can't deal with herself, even though she's doing her patient-management plan and attending weekly counseling? How did she make it work BEFORE you were here? She made it to 51.

How does you thinking she's incompetent help? Does it add or take away from her feeling worthless?

My mom is like that. She thinks Dad can't do things, and butts in with "help" that coddles him and bugs him. He also milks the "Poor me!" thing in a twisted way sometimes, because he's contrary like that.

Me? I leave him be when he's in a funk. I make sure he's safe and I respect the funk. But I don't take his feelings on board for myself. I feel no need to "fix" his grumpy mood. Him sitting on the couch watching TV all grumpy isn't gonna kill him. I don't play into his pity party. I tell him he can be grumpy and watch TV while folding the laundry like usual. Or take a grumpy break and fold it after his show. That's his job -- folding laundry. So do it during his show or after his show today, but he's doing it. He can pick whatever show he wants. Know what happens? He gets over it faster. And he does the chores he can do.

He is fast to crank up and it takes him a long time to come back down. So me leaving him be is like taking the pot off the burner. It's still bubbling and hot at first, but left alone, he does come down and cool off. Letting him have choices about his show, and whether to fold during the show or after, lets him have some dignity, like an adult.

Mom, with her henpecking, "What about this? Have you tried that?" just keeps him cranked up and hot-headed. She thinks she's helping, but all she's doing it moving the boiling over pan from one burner to the next and sloshing hot water around. What she's actually trying to solve is her own anxiety by fixing his feelings so she doesn't have to feel anxious watching him be grumpy.

She will take over the chore of folding clothes, "helping him do it faster," but really she's enabling his laziness, and actually harming him, because he needs to be doing the things he still can actually do to exercise his brain. Let him have his things so he can still feel useful in the house.

Again, him sitting watching TV on the couch all grumpy isn't gonna hurt him any. People are allowed to have feelings, even big ones.

I don't know if this story helps you. You might think about a caregiver class if you are both a partner and a part-time caregiver for Louise now. You have to keep your own boundaries strong.

You and Steve might need to examine your emotional boundaries with Louise, how you are reacting or responding to her illness, and see what parts of it are her jobs to manage, and what parts are appropriate for you to help with, or not.

GG

 

[GalaGirl]

I am now scared that this is going to break down.

Why does breaking up scare you so much? It's normal in dating for people to break up sometimes. Some things work out and some do not. Some folks are long-term compatible and some are not.

Can you articulate what about it scares you?

GG