Guidelines & Boundaries vs. Rules: Merged Threads, General Discussion

[MonoVCPHG]

This thread, along with attending our monthly poly meeting, got me to thinking about my requirements to be healthy in my relationship and in the agreed-upon boundaries Redpepper and I have.

I was explaining polyfidelity to one of the group members, and the look I got in return made me pause and reflect. It wasn't disapproval or judgement. It was genuine disbelief, I think. It had a lot to do with my total compersion for Redpepper and her husband, when I can't even fathom the idea of another man coming into her life above the depth of a close friend, i.e., sexual intimacy in many forms.

I had a chat with her about how I felt things were maturing in our group, as well as in other social areas, where she is finding the community that she so badly wants. I told her I was feeling selfish, and that my requirements were unfair to her, in light of her just finding all of these interesting, open-minded and poly friends.

I was not saying anything had changed for me, as far as how much I loved her, and in wanting to continue building our future. Nor am I any more able to or even want to alter my boundaries. I wanted her to know that, regardless of what happens to us, I will always love her and be a part of her life in as positive a way as I can be, forever. It kind of felt like giving her the option to be set free, for lack of a better description, and letting her know there could never be anything other than love in my heart for her.

If things were to change for us, we will find a way to be in each others lives. We both feel it is meant to be no other way.

I asked her to always be true to herself. She reaffirmed that she has what she wants and is fulfilled. Neither of us can look way into the future and see what will transpire. We will continue to work towards or goals and see where the journey takes us.

I guess the purpose of this comment is simply a reminder to check in with your boundaries, even if it may change things, or they seem to be working fine. Being true to each other and ourselves is the first priority in building a long and happy life with those you love, in my humble opinion.

 

[Ceoli]

Honestly, I make it a point not to get involved with partners who have a lot of rules in their primary relationships. Generally, when I become involved with a partner or couple as a secondary relationship to an already existing primary relationship that has a lot of rules in place, I find various situations can come into play:

1) The person or couple is using me to enhance their own relationship with each other. No thanks. I'm not an accessory. I'm a person with needs.

2) The couple is insecure in their relationship, which means that I have to constantly worry about inadvertently hitting boundaries that create tension between all of us. Again, no thanks. I don't enjoy relationships where I have to walk on eggshells.

3) My relationship with that person does not have the ability to develop along its own natural path because of restrictions placed upon it by other partners.

I understand the need for some couples to put these rules in place, but since it would restrict my freedom within the relationship as a third, it wouldn't be an appealing situation for me.

I honestly prefer to let love develop on its own, and let it grow along the path that's right for that relationship, and I would never want to place any restrictions on how my partners love (aside from safe sex practices for everyone involved). Also, when I'm involved with a couple, I've always found that the more secure they are in their relationship with each other, the more secure I am in my relationship with them.

 

[redpepper]

Honestly, I make it a point not to get involved with partners who have a lot of rules in their primary relationships.

I would agree with you, if it were an established poly couple. When my husband and I were starting out, we made rules to protect our relationship and ourselves. I think, if I were looking again, it would be very different, now that we have experienced ourselves within poly. I have different rules for my husband than I did before, and I am far more relaxed now that I know what we are capable of and I know he isn't going to leave me.

 

[Ceoli]

I would agree with you if it were an established poly couple. When my husband and I were starting out, we made rules to protect our relationship and ourselves... I have different rules for my husband than I did before. I am far more relaxed, now that I know what we are capable of and I know he isn't going to leave me.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to have rules, or anything like that. I'm just saying that I don't want to be involved in such a situation, because it would probably end up being a very unfair situation for me, as the person outside of the couple (whether I'm dating one or both of them). I would rather not bear the brunt of the issues that they're trying to work out. When entering a relationship, I don't want to be the tool a couple uses to work out the issues of their poly explorations. Fortunately, I don't have to, because I choose not to be involved in such situations.

I also think it isn't always about being established in poly for the couple, but it is always about being established as a couple. The couple that I'm dating now is very new to poly, but because of the security in their relationship, it creates an open and secure situation for me.

 

[XYZ123]

Hmm... I think a great many of our rules are made to protect our children. When we started dating, we were both in other relationships and there really weren't any rules other than complete honesty. Now we have to have them when considering any others, at least until the new relationship is secure. Think of it more as our kids are primary and we have to make rules for our relationships to be sure they aren't hurt or neglected by the other relationships or our reactions to them.

There are some issues regarding our own insecurities when NRE comes into play, of course. But we'd never make rules to bind or use another person as a means to enhance our relationship, though I'd hope she would. We are quite secure, even after the first other relationship didn't work out. Otherwise we would never consider poly again.

Also, we are simply not looking, not hunting, not concerned with when or if a new relationship happens. We are just open to it. So we wouldn't expect anyone to wish for a relationship with us who didn't already understand and feel comfortable with our rules. And we wouldn't push, nor disrespect any rules she might have for herself.

 

[redpepper]

I don't want to be involved in such a situation because it would probably end up being a very unfair situation for me as the person outside of the couple (whether I'm dating one or both of them). I would rather not bear the brunt of the issues that they're trying to work out. When entering a relationship, I don't want to be the tool a couple uses to work out the issues of their poly explorations.

It isn't always about being established in poly. It is about being established as a couple. The couple that I'm dating now is very new to poly, but because of the security in their relationship, it creates an open and secure situation for me.

Well, if one is with an established couple, wouldn't they have their own rules within their couple about finding someone, and then change them once they know what rules you have? I hate the word rules. Boundaries, expectations, considerations seem more suited, somehow.

I too would be very skeptical about coming into a relationship that is going to dictate where I fit into it. It sounds like you have experiences that have left you resentful about this. I am feeling resentful about this, because my husband and I work very hard at making sure we are okay and that our relationship with Mono is okay. I know we call it a "V," but in terms of our commitment to each other, we are a triad. Sure, there is no intimacy between my men in the touching sense, but our "V" works because we all have rules together now. This has changed with time, and continues to mature and establish itself.

In the beginning, my husband and I needed our own rules to protect ourselves from people wanting to be with us that didn't work. We exercised these rules recently, actually, as a male friend of ours wanted to start a relationship with us. If we hadn't had some rules around how to approach this, we would be in a different place now.

I agree entirely with you, Ceoli. But I want to be sure anyone reading this realizes the importance of having couple rules/goals (poly established or not) that change and grow when they meet another that works for them in a triad. That's all. It's not all about the third coming in, and what they want, but about all three.

 

[redpepper]

I just talked to Mono, and he seems to think you mean that you don't want to be dictated to, as far as being able to see other people and do things that you want to do. If that is the case, then I have no beef with what you say. No one should ever tell anyone what to do and have the expectation that they will do it.

I am referring to someone coming into a relationship that is already established, and the couple thinking that they should have no rules in order to be appealing and keep the person coming in. That isn't safe for the couple, as it asks for a large amount of trust. I would certainly be very wary of someone who wants to dictate to me in that way. It just wouldn't be feasible and wouldn't happen.

 

[Ceoli]

Ok, let's see if I can be clearer. First, I'm not particularly resentful about any of my experiences. I've learned from both the good and the bad and all of them help teach me how to build healthy relationships. And there is still much to learn, as I hope there will be for all of my life. I was talking about what some of my and my friends' experiences have been when rules hinder the building healthy relationships. Yes, I've been burned by couples who have been too insecure to understand how to treat me, but I took the lessons from that and took my own responsibility in letting it happen. The good thing is that experiences like that help me to feel even more secure about choosing who I get involved with.

Second, I agree that the word "rules" isn't always a fair description. However, there are times when it's a pretty accurate description. I think it's pretty important for any relationship to be built on agreements about how they are going to be treating each other. I like having clear agreements for how I would like my partner to treat me and vice versa, but I can't see setting out an agreement for how my partner is going to treat other people. It's not an agreement if the other person isn't even there yet to participate in the making of it. Especially if the goal of those agreements is to restrict the ability of my partner to love someone other than me. I cannot put rules on how my feelings develop, so how can I expect rules to control how my partner's feelings develop?
So it's not fair for me to set rules for how my partner should feel about other people. If those feelings start changing how my partner is fundamentally treating me, then of course there's an issue. But I don't see things like my partner spending a night with another lover as something that changes how he or she loves me.

I do agree that agreements and boundaries are good. I also think we agree that constant checking in around those boundaries is important for all involved. However, when rules are set out between the primary partners and only change in relationship to that and for the security of that partnership without consideration to the newer partnership (whether it's a satellite partnership or a triad or whatever) there's a much larger problem in play.

I'm just saying that I don't want to get involved with anyone who has preset rules about how how he or she is going to treat me and those rules being there for the sake of another person. To me, that means the agreement they have between each other isn't strong enough for me to feel secure in my relationship with one or both of them. This doesn't mean that I expect "carte blanch" or that I can come lording in with all my demands and needs and expect everything to be able to change to fit me. I have complete respect for agreements that exist between primaries and have no desire to force anything on that. However, I want to be able to build my own agreements without having preset rules forced on me too. So far, my experience has taught me that the more specific the rules are about how I'm going to be treated, the less strong the agreements are between the primary relationships I'm involved with or attached to.

 

[redpepper]

Wow, we have milked this topic, haven't we, Ceoli? Thanks for all that. I guess, in the end, it's just what works for individuals and couples alike.

 

[marksbabygirl]

I'm actually pretty sexually liberal. So long as no one is being used, abused, or hurt, it's fine with me what goes on behind closed doors. It's only myself and lover(s) I feel I have any right to have opinions and comfort zones regarding.

But what if they WANT to be used, abused or hurt?

Ok, that was a tangent.

I'm really glad to have found these threads on rules, boundaries and prescriptive... something or others... It's been very helpful (and extremely unproductive for my work day!).

 

[AutumnalTone]

But what if they WANT to be used, abused or hurt?

Well, see, then I have to go to all the trouble of arranging a good alibi, and that takes a lot of effort. The pay had better be good!

 

[whatamIdoing]

I know this is an older thread, but I'd love to resurrect it.

Struggling now with rules vs boundaries. Can't quite figure out the difference.

Hubby and I have our rules, but they've morphed over our 8-yr relationship (married 6). For example, when we started out swinging there was NO KISSING. That's changed. And while never mentioned until recently, we both knew that no one was in OUR bed without both of us being present.

Now all our boundaries are being bent and challenged. Our rules are needing to be written, at least verbally. And I continue to struggle.

 

[Derbylicious]

Thinking about how rules change, I've come to realize that it's better to have positive "rules" for the relationship(s) that you're in (for example, we will spend x amount of time with each other per week), rather than setting rules out for other relationships that a partner is engaged in (for example, no doggy style sex with anyone else). It's always better to work on a relationship that you're a part of, rather than trying to control what happens in other relationships.

Not too long ago, we had all kinds of rules in place, and one day I came to realize that all I really needed was to be kept in the loop. What that means is something that is still being defined. Sometimes I don't know that there is something I want to know until it comes up in casual conversation. It's a learning process.

I think that we are allowed to have criteria for ourselves about what we will and won't tolerate a partner of ours doing in a relationship. I think if you have a partner that wishes to do something that goes against your criteria, if it's something you can't handle, that it is your responsibility to end things and move on. We all have those deal breakers, and it's best to be honest about what those are up front so that everyone is on the same page.

 

[redpepper]

I wrote about this all on another thread recently, and on my blog, as well. I wrote about the difference between rules, boundaries and compromise. Might help.

 

[whatamIdoing]

I wrote about this all on another thread recently and on my blog as well. I wrote about the difference between rules, boundaries and compromise. Might help.

Redpepper I read it, TWICE. I will read it again. It still leaves me confused. Not your fault. It's my limitations. Lately my head is swimming.

 

[FlameKat]

WhatamIdoing, don't try to force yourself to understand. Let it seep into your consciousness. In other words, sleep on it. Let it come to you. Understanding intellectually and emotionally are two different things. You might need to understand emotionally before intellectually, or vice versa.

For me, its a combination of the two. I find that understanding glimmers and gleams, but I can't for the life of me 'get it'... until I have a moment that defines it in my heart. Weird, but that's me.

Either way, stressing about it won't help with the understanding. Give yourself a break. It will come. And we are all here for hugs and support until it does (and after it does, too).

 

[redpepper]

I read it TWICE. It still leaves me confused.

Really? Please ask questions. It's no work of art. It is what works for me. What makes sense to me might not make sense to others. I love the challenge of trying to explain, so please ask. If you do so here, please copy and paste the post here for others to know what we are talking about. Thanks.

 

[SNeacail]

Struggling now with rules vs boundaries. Can't quite figure out the difference.

This is the way I have always read it:
Rules = Absolutes, never going to change (i.e., no unsafe sex, no cheating, no lies, etc.)
Boundaries = Limitations based on each partner's insecurities or fears, subject to change and re-evaluation (i.e., no overnights if the kids are home, no sex with OP in "our" bed, don't let my friends see you, don't tell me the details afterwards, etc.)

 

[whatamIdoing]

Really? Please ask questions. Its no work of art and is what works for me so what makes sense to me might not make sense to others. I love the challenge of trying to explain, so... Please; ask. If you do so here, please copy and paste the post here for others to know what we are talking about. Thanks

Ok, let me try.

I can say that I have rules. The problem is that hubby and I made them a while ago. But that we've changed them. So since we managed to change them, I guess they are boundaries, based on your definition.

For example, we had a rule early on of NO KISSING. That changed to NO DEEP kissing. That changed yet again, and now kissing is allowed.

No fluid bonding at swing parties is a hard and fast rule. But when we swing with our friends (we are more poly than swingers with these folks, as they are our family), we lifted the no-fluid-bonding rule.

So I guess our rules are really boundaries, based on your definition.

The thing is, I get compromise, as everyone gives a little, some more than others. DH is doing a lot of that right now, and I'm very grateful to him I guess what I'm having a hard time with is rules vs boundaries. We never had to compromise much when swinging, and we had RULES. Now it appears that when both of us have the same boundary, it's a rule. For example, our hard and fast rules apply to us as a couple:

no one in the marital bed without both partners being there
no lying
no cheating
no ongoing flirtations or dating without your partner's knowledge and consent

We are having everything as we know it tested now, with the addition of J to our lives.

I am sure that the next big issue will come up with overnights.

 

[redpepper]

It appears that when both of us have the same boundary, it's a rule. For example our hard and fast rules apply to us as a couple.

no one in the marital bed without both partners being there
no lying
no cheating
no ongoing flirtations or dating without your partners knowledge and consent

Good points. A rule for you is when you both have the same boundary. The thing is that those you invite to be in your lives might not have the same "rules." Then what? The difference between poly and swinging is that it isn't couple-centric. To all have the same rules would be really tricky. The only thing I can think of that might be a rule, as far as you are describing, is that everyone get tested every 6 months (especially since you are fluid bonding) and that everyone uses safe sex practices if they are taking a new lover. What that means should be discussed also, I would think.

No lying, no cheating and no dating without everyone's knowledge are good poly ethics and the foundation of relationships, to me (respect, honest communication, integrity and empathy), rather than boundaries or rules.

For reference:

Compromise, to me, is what we do before a boundary is agreed upon. It's the space between something coming up, and getting to the point of comfortably sitting in an established relationship dynamic. It's the space where everything stops and no one moves forward until there is communication. It isn't comfortable for one or the other, but isn't meant to be. The goal is for discussion/communication to happen until there is a balance of semi-comfort for both/all parties, so that there can be movement forward in a relationship.

Boundaries are established at the end of negotiations, with compromise. It's an end result that is known to be fluid. I can sit with it and try out for a while, knowing that my partner is also somewhat comfortable and willing to see if something works. Quite often, the new boundary is like a young seedling that we need to nurture together in order for it to grow into a strong tree that everyone is comfortable with, and no more discussion is needed. When negotiations and communication have occurred, to the point of a boundary being set, I know that my partner(s) feel comfortable in the knowledge that they have been heard, respected, considered and cared for. I should come out of the discussion feeling the same way, and if I don't, or they don't, negotiations are still going on, and I need to encourage talking. (Sometimes a break is needed before jumping in again, as it is quite exhausting.)

Rules are ultimatums and completely off the table for me. I have never done well in a relationship where there are rules (unless I am setting them, in terms of BDSM). They have no place in my relationships. I will not be with someone who attempts to set rules, unless they are willing to turn to communication and negotiation that will bring us to compromising with the future goal of setting boundaries that work for the us. If they are unwilling, then I will not stay with them. Simple as that. My life is my own, and they will no longer be a part of it.