When SO wants her own....

S

Seekinganswer

New member
Hi Everyone,

I posted our story ('Struggling to breathe') a couple of weeks ago. Thank you all for the support and sound advice you gave.

So this is where we are. We're almost 5 weeks into our poly journey. For 2 weeks of those, my husband and his OSO were broken up. Mind you, the break up was a relief for me, as the tension was driving me nuts.

His OSO felt like a 'third party.' The sticky point was that she felt that her needs were not met and that she was happier during the affair than when it came out in the open. According to her, my husband was more attentive then, and now seemed that everything revolved around me.

During our many discussions, we had agreed to take things slow, as I needed time to come to terms with the affair they had for 9 months. In addition to this, she wanted reassurance from me that at some point I should be okay with them having kids(!). I am not interested in that, as we already have 2 kids. I told both of them this. She did not like this because it was too restrictive. My husband, on the other hand, would would like to have kids with her, and eventually have her move into her own house on our estate, but only if I'm agreeable to it.

We talked about this at length. In the end, she said she would like to have her own man, and have the freedom to do what she wanted with him, including having children. So she broke it off.

Anyhow, 3 days ago they made up. This time, my husband is saying we should stop focusing on future plans and just enjoy each other's company. So has also promised to relax and go with the flow and not make any demands. She goes out and meets other people instead of sitting and waiting for my husband.

However, I feel though that leaving such matters hanging to 'enjoy and see how things develop' is kind of vague. I am the only one opposed to the 'future plan.' I'd be more comfortable if we had a clear idea of where we were heading. I think I've had just about enough surprises.

Still, surprises continue. It's Sunday. She called today because she wanted to see my husband. My husband works at least 11 hours/6 days a week. As his assistant, his OSO is with him all day. I work a few doors away and can see him whenever I want. The kids, on the other hand, see my husband, at the most, an hour or two before bedtime. Sunday is the only family day we have. I feel this is unfair for both my husband and his OSO to have a Sunday evening, as they had spent a night together this week already. I do realise that spontaneity adds to the fun, but given our family situation, we need to schedule so that everyone, especially the kids, do not come short. How do you handle the time management?
 
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I haven't read your blog posts, but from what you write here I want to say this: the children's needs come first, and they need to spend time with their dad. All the adults in a situation can speak for themselves, but you and your husband must speak for your children.

If your metamour is experiencing a crisis of some kind, taking some time away from the kids may be warranted, but it should be clearly understood by all parties as a special circumstance, and not something that can be a regular occurrence. Your children need their father, and there is no substitute for his presence.

If she is just missing him and desperate to be with him, sorry. The kids' needs come first. Besides, she enjoys the lion's share of his time already.

That's my advice for the immediate question at hand. If I may speak to the broader situation, I would strongly caution you that your metamour may be a cowgirl looking to cut your husband out of your herd. She has already stated her desire for a man of her own. And she wants yours. I would watch her actions carefully to determine whether she is moving to cut you out.
 
Fidelia said:
If I may speak to the broader situation, I would strongly caution you that your metamour may be a cowgirl looking to cut your husband out of your herd. She has already stated her desire for a man of her own. And she wants yours. I would watch her actions carefully to determine whether she is moving to cut you out.
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This was my impression, as well. Her comments seem very selfish, all about her, not about her love for your husband. This women says she wants children with your husband, but doesn't think twice about pulling him away from the children he already has. What's going to happen if she gets her wish and has a child with your husband? Will your children be abandoned for the new ones?

Now, the part of me that always wants to think the best of people is saying that it's time for a sit down with all three of you to have a serious discussion about boundaries. Sometimes it takes a situation to develop before any of us realize that there could be a problem. It's time to voice your observations, not through your husband, but directly to her and him together. Maybe they are both so deep in NRE that they just don't see it, maybe not.
 
Thanks, Fidelia. We have talked and talked ourselves hoarse about our situation, mostly about OSO feeling left out. My husband says we do more talking than doing things. But you are right, we are going to have to set up boundaries. I think the talking is something we have to accept, if this is to work.

Sneacail, these boundaries or restrictions are the reason OSO broke it off. She said she needs her freedom to do what she wants. However, since this week, she says she is no longer focusing on the babies, and is in it for the fun now. So now my husband feels like he needs to take care of her, and I believe he is afraid he will lose her if he does not pay attention to her needs. But if this "taking care of" is eating into our family time with the kids, I am not willing to accept it.
 
Seekinganswer said:
However since this week, she says she is no longer focusing on the babies and is in for the fun now. So now my husband feels like he needs to take care of her and I believe he is afraid he will lose her if he does not pay attention to her needs. But if this is eating into our family time, I am not willing to accept it.
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I'm back to my original impression, then-- cowgirl!
 
Cowgirl.

End of story.

OSO is being selfish and not practicing good poly ethics, if you ask me. Where is the empathy in this? There isn't. It's "me me me." That is all I get from this. I don't think this woman is the right fit for your family, and I don't think you all are a good fit for her, either. She seems to need a man that will be okay with her having lovers, but is dedicated to having kids and being there 24/7. There is nothing wrong with that, but your man is not the one who can fulfill that.

She already had the "baby chat," and the "moving in chat" with him, after a really short time. She has other plans for his life, and she has made that clear. Good for her for communicating, but the plans are not going to work out with him.

The only way I can see this working is if your husband becomes a tertiary, or a partner that is an addition to another that fills her needs. Therefore, being available during your family time would not be on the table at all, and she would have to go elsewhere for that need to be met.
 
Thanks Redpepper.
redpepper said:
Cowgirl. End of story.
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Yes, that was my thought when this talk about babies came up. However, the baby talk was during the affair time, before my husband had told either of us of the poly plan. Their relationship basically had developed up to a point where the next step was getting a house and starting a family. It was only after the affair was in the open that my husband explained to both of us about the poly future with all of us under one roof. Before that, OSO had believed that a life with my husband meant we would have to divorce, which he'd never promised.

I had a talk with OSO, and she reassured me again that she is happy, for now, to enjoy my husband's company, and will not focus on the baby talk, or moving in. She does not have other lovers, but goes out with friends when she feels like it, without expecting my husband to be there 24/7 for her. The agreement they have is that when she does find someone else, she has to tell my husband before becoming intimate with this person. I find that reduces the pressure all round, because until recently, she felt discarded when we had to go home to our kids and she spent nights alone.

I agree that in terms of her need to have kids, we are definitely not right for each other. We won't hold her back if she finds someone for marriage and kids. The only trouble is, I don't think my husband will ever be ready to give her up if the time comes, or if indeed she wants to move on herself.

In terms of safety, we are safer with her than going on the 'hunt' for the right one, as in our part of the world, HIV/AIDS prevalence rates are scary high, especially among married couples! Even more scary is that there is now a younger generation of people born with the disease and are not aware of their sero status, while unethical doctors have been known to forge negative results upon receiving money.
 
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Seekinganswer said:
Still on the safety matter (HIV/AIDS) as mentioned in previous post, this option would be suicidal.
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I have to disagree on this point, Seeking. It is possible to establish safe and stable poly relationships between healthy adults.

As for unethical doctors forging clean reports, I would think that one way to solve that problem is for all partners to reach agreement as to which doctors to trust, and all partners to go to those doctors for testing. Another possible solution would be for several partners to go together for testing, and arrange that no partner would ever be alone with the doctor or staff, thus precluding the possibility of under-the-table shenanigans. Neither approach demonstrates much trust in the partners or doctors involved, but in situations where you have reason to doubt the veracity of medical records, a little paranoia could save lives.
 
The only thing I have to add to the cowgirl comments is that your husband and his OSO have had 9 months to plan and dream. You've only been involved in the planning for the last 5 weeks. Of course you want things to slow down! I'm betting they didn't get to plans of babies and moving in together overnight, so if they didn't, why should you?

Changes to living situations aren't something to enter into lightly, ever. Everyone has to be on board 100% and truly want to make it work for everyone involved. If your husband really wants to make this woman a part of his life permanently, then the integration changes have to go slowly. Rather than trying to separate your husband from you and your kids, a better approach might be to come over for a family dinner and get to know the family as a whole a little better. Is there any reason why she can't be a part of family time, at least for a couple of hours on the weekend?
 
So what do we do? If she's a cowgirl, do we end this now before things get complicated? My husband (S) loves her and would like her to be part of our lives for 'as long as it lasts.' Perhaps S hopes that with time, we'll all be happy, and I'll embrace the baby plan, or in fact insist on it myself. :) He didn't understand my reservation on this until I told him to imagine me rosy and swollen with someone else's child. He frowned, wrinkled his nose and quickly pronounced, "That is not the same thing!!" He could not imagine it either. So there!

Also, deciding to live together and have kids is a bit more complicated in our culture (D and I are Ugandan). S would have to formally declare his intentions to the family in a traditional ceremony, with a dowry, which is actually a marriage. I know that sounds over the top, but that's how it is here. Any other way is considered disrespect to the woman concerned, and to her family, as well. So it's not just packing up and moving in. It is all a bit too much for me to consider. This is why I am more comfortable with the uncomplicated version.

Derbylicious, we've been out a couple of times with OSO (D), and the kids get along with her pretty well. Without the 'noose' of the future baby plans, she really is a fun person to be around. I've been out with her at pick-up time from school, so integrating her into our family is the least of the problems. I just feel that once we start involving the kids, we, the adults, should have sorted ourselves out. We have not.

On further discussion, S admitted to having persuaded D to meet on Sunday, so the pressure this time came from him. I made it clear that impromptu meetings between them are just not acceptable, given that there are others, myself and the kids, to be considered.

Fidelia, good idea about the joint testing. That should keep everything clean and transparent.
 
What to do now? Hm... good question.

Really, I think it's up to her. There will be no babies with your shared partner, it sounds like. So you can both let her know that. There will be no living together, it sounds like, so you can let her know that too. It sounds like it's not okay for him to just drop everything and go to her, so she shouldn't expect that either.

So where does that leave things? Well, you are willing to share your time with her, up to a point. What is that point? How much time? When?

You are willing that she be in his life at all. That is big!

You accept he loves her. That is big, and a lot!

You seem to have some very clear boundaries, and so does he. Se now has to figure out if it is worth it to stay with him, knowing those boundaries. She can negotiate them, and it will be up to the two of you if you are willing to budge on any or all of them. If you aren't, then again she will have to decide if it is worth it to stay, or go and find a man who is able and willing to join her on a journey into parenthood and cohabitation, possibly with your partner on the side.

This is how boundary-setting works, making compromises until everyone feels comfortable, or everything ends because it just isn't going to work.

You are on the right path, I think. You just seem to need some confidence in that. Just because she is nice and you enjoy hanging out with her doesn't mean you should compromise on what feels comfortable to you. The image of her will change pretty quickly if you compromise, as resentment will rear its ugly head and you will end up hating her. Stay firm and pleasantly adaptable until she brushes up against your boundaries and then, with some assertion, remind her where the line is. She will have respect for this and know where she stands with you, as will your husband.
 
redpepper said:
You are on the right path I think, you just seem to need some confidence in that... just because she is nice and you enjoy hanging out with her doesn't mean you should compromise what feels comfortable to you. The image of her will change pretty quickly if you compromise as resentment will rear it's ugly head and you will end up hating her. Stay firm and pleasantly adaptable until she brushes up against your boundaries and then, with some assertion remind her where the line is. She will have respect for this and know where she stands with you, as will your partner.
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This is a good point for anyone reading -

Sometimes people are passive about their boundaries. They will continue to push until they reach an externally-imposed limit. If they happen to over-step a boundary, they will not notice or not acknowledge unless the person whose boundaries they over-stepped says something.

I don't know if this is what is happening in the OP's situation or not, but this is something that I struggle with. It can be disastrous when the person whose boundaries are over-stepped is shy when it comes to speaking up about it.
 
Thanks, Redpepper.

redpepper said:
I think it's up to her. There will be no babies with your shared partner, so you can both let her know that. There will be no living together, so you can let her know that. It's not okay for him to just drop everything and go to her, so she shouldn't expect that either.
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I think, for now, she would rather be with S and put her future dream on hold. I find this suspect, as I was very clear to both S and D about how far I would like to go, which does not tally with her dream.

Here's why. When we first talked about poly with S, he asked me what I thought about inviting someone else into our sexual life, kind of a good friend with benefits. No talk of a long-term living situation, and certainly no babies. As S insists that his feelings for D are only enjoyable if I share with him, I have to be okay with whatever is planned.

redpepper said:
So where does that leave things? You are willing to share your time with her, to a point. What is that point?
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I can imagine a strong friendship with her, based on our shared love for S, and if we both get comfortable, maybe even try to explore the sexual side of it. She can visit us occasionally, join us in family activities, but alongside that, she is free to move on if she meets the right person for marriage and children. I do NOT want us to "marry" her, so to speak.

And as NeonKaos pointed out, the dangers of not being articulate on boundaries are very real. While the ones we have so far hurt D because she found them restrictive, I do not regret pointing them out. Right now, I am not comfortable pussyfooting around some salient issues.

But what does S think? This is one is tricky. He has repeatedly said that he would like us to really try to enjoy without the pressure of the "future talk." In fact, he promised D that if she trusts him, she will be really happy!! Hm... Note that he does not clearly state that there will be no babies, or traditional marriage or living together. To me, this sounds like a silent promise and very very dangerous. When I asked him, he said that he does not want to hurt D. I told him he has to decide what is important to him: placate D, let her float around in her dream, or be firm and let her know what he is offering. I will not tolerate such vagueness, and if he wants this to work, I cannot be comfortable under these circumstances.

And D? I know from past discussions with her that S promised her countless times that she will have a "happy life." She has interpreted this before as an affirmation that he will give her what she wants (babies and living with her). I tested the waters and asked her directly if she was still hoping for the babies with S. She said, "I do not want to focus on that now. Let's all just be happy." Vagueness again.

My take: we are doing a bad poly job of it as far as communication is concerned... no complete openness. Mostly, there are talks between her and him, me and him, her and me. Often, D does not want S to tell me some things, and vice versa. One thing D does not know is that S would like to interact with other interesting women that we both like, for various reasons. This he has not shared with D. He has a couple of female friends with whom he communicates and would like me to meet in the future. We are not doing anything about it yet, because all our focus is on the relationship with D, and quite frankly, it's very demanding. So there we are...
 
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Yeah, he sounds a little too vague. Perhaps he doesn't want to hurt her feelings. The thing is, though, that he will hurt her more if he continues to not figure out his stuff.

This sounds like a case of a primary relationship where the secondary wants to be a primary. There can be a lot of pain for someone who does not subscribe to the theory of primary/secondary relationships. Perhaps a conversation on this will shed some light on it for you and her. It could mean that the result is that she expresses that she just wants to be reassured that she is needed and loved by him, and that you appreciate her being in his life. Secondaries need support too. This doesn't mean that you have to back down from your boundaries, but meet her halfway and address some of hers.

There are some really great threads here on what it means to be a secondary. If you do a search you should come up with some. There is one called "The Secondary's Bill of Rights." There is some excellent information in there.
 
If she really wants babies, and he can't give that to her, he needs to let her go. She may be willing to compromise on that now, but eventually it will come up again. I know this because I didn't meet my partner until I was 39, and he already had children. We thought about it and he decided no, he couldn't do it, financially or timewise. So I had to make a hard choice, stay with the man I love, or leave and 'maybe' (in miniscule odds at my age) find someone I could have a baby with almost immediately.

It is no good her hoping he will change his mind if that's not going to be the case.
 
Redpepper, I havent even read all of the threads yet, but this is it. Spot on. Thanks.
idealist said:
It's possible that an un-merged person who is demanding more time, attention, etc., from a partner who is merged with someone else, or merged with a family, is a person who is actually desiring to be merged, and maybe doesn't realize it yet.
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D gets unhappy and feels like this situation is something she has to bear, like a cross. Her ideal was that she was to become the primary after our divorce, because the poly matter wasn't tabled yet. Now she knows she can't be married to S, yet that was what she expected. Given that polygamous unions are common here, she said she would be happy to be a second wife (with the same rights as I). Her idea of secondary is to have a home of her own, where S visits. This is polygamy.
 
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You are right, Fitchick.
FitChick said:
If she really wants babies, and he can't give that to her, he needs to let her go.
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This is my worry, that S would like to hang onto this, in the hope that she will be happy enough to be with him for now. We can't live like this! It is not fair for her or me. It's like a noose hanging over our heads. I do also feel it gives her false hope that in time the situation will change. He told her to be patient, and she will be happy, which could be misleading. What he meant is that she should let things flow as they are and she will still be happy with what we have.

So the last time she broke it off (apparently she did so many times during the affair), she continued to work as his assistant, and the tension could be cut with a knife. They ended up making up after 2 weeks and we were back to square one. Another attempt would have to be a complete severance of contact. Other than that, it's pointless to even try.
 
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