Husband crossed boundary and now I'm hurt and don't know what to do

[sage]

OK, no more snooping. But it is interesting that all you guys who are so against it are very poly.

Changing boundaries is a very difficult thing to manage. I do feel a great deal of empathy for Overthinker. I "innocently" found a lot of very romantic texts when Z gave me an old phone of his while I was between phones. It was devastating to see him saying exactly the same things to J that he texts to me, when I didn't realise their relationship had moved to that level. And there were stupid things like him telling her he couldn't wait to kiss off her lipstick, while he will never kiss me with lipstick on.

On the other side of the channel, guys can find communicating boundary changes that they find subtle, and women find huge, really hard.

We solved the problem by him telling me lots about his other relationships. He enjoys it, so it isn't a problem. He would expect the same of me, because I am expanding my life in many directions at the moment, and for the first time in our relationship he is getting a bit insecure.

It sounds to me as if in Overthinker's quad relationship, Bob and Alice are more into each other than Overthinker and Ted. I'm sure this happens a lot, and is difficult. There are other quads on this board, I think. You should get some advice from them.

 

[TL4everu2]

I think that some of us are getting onto the wrong person's case here.

While Overthinker may have been in the "wrong" for snooping, it still doesn't eclipse the fact that Bob crossed that boundary. He was MORE "in the wrong" in the first place than her, IMO, and he needs to be aware that it has hurt her, and that if there are certain boundaries, they need to be adhered to by both parties. He has instilled a lack of trust in Overthinker, now, that wasn't there before. This mistrust will only serve to foster more jealousy, unless it is dealt with.

 

[TruckerPete]

I think that some of us are getting onto the wrong person's case here.

While Overthinker may have been in the "wrong" for snooping, it still doesn't eclipse the fact that Bob crossed that boundary. He was more "in the wrong" in the first place than her, IMO, and he needs to be aware that it has hurt her, and that if there are certain boundaries, they need to be adhered to by both parties. He has instilled a lack of trust in Overthinker now, that wasn't there before. This mistrust will only serve to foster more jealousy, unless it is dealt with.

Actually, they both broke boundaries. They've both done wrong. They both need to do some renegotiation and fixing to build trust back. Bob just doesn't know any boundaries have been broken (other than the ones he broke).

I don't think there is a "more wrong" in this case. Both are just wrong, and have been addressed as such by members.

 

[sage]

Well said, TL4everu2. I'd rather be a snooper than a liar. I had to write my last post on this thread in a hurry. After I'd pushed send I thought, "Hey, wait a minute." I can let my snoopy behaviour go now, because Z has been very trustworthy for the past 5 months. But prior to that, he did stuff up reasonably regularly, and it does eat away at the trust. There is an element of self-preservation in snooping.

 

[NeonKaos]

I throw my 2 cents in with "I'd rather be a snooper than a liar". This is not a mono vs. poly issue. Plenty of times I have either been or seen a situation where one person does something, another person busts them by "snooping", and suddenly it's all the person who snooped's fault because they "invaded privacy". If you use "privacy" as an excuse to be dishonest, then expect to reap what you sow.

 

[SourGirl]

I throw my 2 cents in with "I'd rather be a snooper than a liar". This is not a mono vs. poly issue. Plenty of times I have either been or seen a situation where one person does something, another person busts them by "snooping", and suddenly it's all the person who snooped's fault because they "invaded privacy". If you use "privacy" as an excuse to be dishonest, then expect to reap what you sow.

Exactly. I am a very private person, but still, if I thought those around me were snooping, I would (and did in the past) tend to show all my cards, and wonder more about how I am presenting myself, that they doubted me. I'd rather fix the doubt.

 

[NeonKaos]

..`Zactly.

I am a very private person, still, if I thought those around me 'snooped', I`d (and have in the past) tend to show all my cards, and wonder more about how I am presenting myself, that they doubted me.
I`d rather fix the doubt.

And of course, they'd owe you an apology. But you'd accept their apology, and life would continue.

 

[SourGirl]

And of course, they'd owe you an apology. But you'd accept their apology, and life would continue.

Yep. That`s how it`s gone. We survived the faux-pas.

Now if someone were hostile (that's happened) and malicious in their snooping and accusations, they can go fuck themself, until a better attitude prevails. But basic human worry, and fear? I guess I'd rather solve the doubt, then get all up in my tighty-whities about privacy breach.

This convo is rather interesting.

 

[GroundedSpirit]

........
I know I shouldn't snoop but I did and I can't take it back. There have been several triggers over the past couple months that make me think that he and his gf haven't been following some boundaries and I have found some of my suspicions to be true. Simple things such as she calling my husband while she was on vacation out of state with her husband and family even though her husband specifically asked her not too.

Hi there Overthinker,

Seems I'm a bit late coming to this thread, but I'd like to toss out another opinion, FWIW. I hope this doesn't come across wrong, or that I can word it to be received in the spirit it's meant. I smell something funny. Although you've posted that your relationship is the best it's been in ages, and things of that nature, I'm going to call BS.

From what I can pick up from your writing, it would appear that your relationship is maintaining a very delicate balance. It seems there are misunderstandings, lack of clarity and lack of trust on both your parts. To me, it seems you both have a long way to go before this love style flows naturally for you both. If my suspicions were right, I'd just admit it. Then you can really decide how to proceed going forward. As it stands right now, it may take only one minor event to tip the whole thing over. You allude to as much yourself in a round-about way.

This is one of the things we've discussed at length here about the concept of "rules and boundaries" and why many people don't even want to hear about them (beyond the big, common-sense ones regarding safety, etc.). If you need all kinds of boundaries to protect fragile egos and personalities, you probably need to drop relationships and work on the foundational (personal) stuff first. Trying to do both, or one before the other, is a high-risk adventure that fails more often than it succeeds.

Sending a picture to someone where a relationship already exists, or having a conversation, are certainly not things that confident people would put up boundaries around. They're simple, harmless things that potentially happen in any close relationship, especially one with a potent injection of NRE. Any snooping is a clear sign that the level of trust necessary is not yet there, and sometimes it never will be.

It's one thing for all (both?) to be honest, call a spade a spade, and say that history prevents that level of trust from being achieved. There are situations like that. It doesn't mean you can't go forward, only that everyone acknowledges that you can't erase history, so simply agree to a different set of tools (monitoring when needed) that connect to the reality. Not a bad thing, as long as all are in agreement for the need.

That's just my first thought based on how I read your posts.

 

[Minxxa]

My perspective is a little different, I guess. I think that when our partner is being secretive and hiding something (as opposed to just keeping some things private), we can sometimes sense that. I know I can. Hubs has often said he doesn't understand how I always knew when he wasn't being truthful to me, and I always did, even though there was no proof.

Our relationship didn't start in a totally healthy place, so we do have a history of my trust being broken, and because of that, our ideas about secrecy vs. privacy are different from someone who hasn't had those issues in their relationship.

For now, he has to understand that my trust is not yet completely rebuilt, and that the only thing that will do that is time, and him living up to his side of the bargain. Were he to break that now, I'm not sure we'd get through it, as I've "restarted" the trust between us multiple times and it got harder each time.

If I had issues with something or suspected him of anything (which actually rarely happened after the first year), I would ask him what was going on. The only thing he ever hid from me, quite well I might add, was the depth of his unhappiness in the last two years of our marriage. And I think I must've known, because I would think about asking to talk to him and then stopped myself, I guess so I wouldn't have to hear the painful truth.
.

I agree with asking them. I did this with my husband, and he lied right to my face. The OP did ask her husband and he lied right to her face. We're not talking about a healthy communication/trust cycle here-- we're talking about a relationship where that is not happening. When my husband lied to me, I knew he was lying, but I didn't have "proof," so he could go on lying to me, and what could I do? My trust and heart were breaking, but as long as he denied what was going on, there was no way to work through the issue, because he would not admit it.

I think that some of us are getting onto the wrong person's case here.

While Overthinker may have been in the wrong for snooping, it still doesn't eclipse the fact that her hubby crossed that boundary. He was more in the wrong in the first place than her, IMO, and he needs to be aware that it has hurt her, and that if there are certain boundaries, they need to be adhered to by both parties. He has instilled a lack of trust in Overthinker, now, that wasn't there before. This mistrust will only serve to foster more jealousy, unless it is dealt with.

When my hubs lied to me, and I knew it, I didn't say anything for quite a while. But the fact that I knew it had happened withered our relationship, and keeping it inside was way worse because I kindled that mistrust and heartbreak until I went a little nutty. I did go into his email, and found the email with the proof that I had been right, my feelings were correct. I told my hubs and he got really mad. He got mad because he got caught. Yes, he was mad I read his email, but in a way he had left me no choice on how to get the issue into the open and deal with it, in one way or the other. Either we could get through it, and learn how to communicate, and that lying wouldn't work, or we'd realize it was too far gone and break up. Luckily, the first happened, but had he been so angry with me and not taken responsibility for breaking the boundary and lying to me, it would have been the right decision to leave the relationship.

I understand where people are coming from about privacy, how they wouldn't want their SO invading their privacy, but I'm feeling like that's coming from people who do not lie to their partners. I think once you prove you cannot be trusted in your relationship to keep agreements and be honest, you give up a certain amount of privacy for a while in order to help rebuild the trust you broke. If you can't or are not willing to do that, then that's the person's choice, of course, but then they can expect to either lose their partner or never be trusted again (which ends up in losing their partner eventually).

When you're coming into poly from a relationship that has been plagued with communication issues, trust issues, lying and breaking agreements, there may likely be a different perspective on things, and a different way of handling it, because you're not dealing with a clean slate of trust. It's like that thread about poly after cheating, only this is poly after lying. It can be worked through, but both partners have to be willing.

I thought for a while we weren't going to be able to make it through, yet we did. But part of that was my husband realizing all that we did have, and realizing all of the hurt and pain he put me through, and realizing that building that back after he destroyed it was going to take time and effort.

Apparently this one struck home for me!

 

[NeonKaos]

I want to comment on some salient points in other people's posts eventually, but find it irksome to multi-quote long posts on the ipod. For now, I give you the following:

While I am not a "liar" when it comes to my relationships, I am not 100% honest in many ways throughout everyday life. I am responsible for "little white lies", to lies of omission (for noble purposes only of course, LOL), and probably many other things that are so unconscious that I would have to start keeping a list... but every one of these could also be rationalized as "maintaining one's privacy".

Having said that, and taken ownership of the fact that I may not be perfect after all, I want to remind folks that IF YOU DON"T WANT PEOPLE (partners, kids, friends, enemies) UP IN YOUR BUSINESS, DON"T LEAVE YOUR BUSINESS WHERE PEOPLE CAN GET AT IT! YOU, only YOU are responsible for your own privacy. The same goes for stealing. IF YOU DON"T WANT YOUR SHIT STOLEN, LOCK YOUR FRIGGING SHIT UP! Geezus. Sometimes I feel like I'm teaching kindergarten.

This has been a PSA, free of charge. If you don't like it, I'll refund double your money.

ETA: When I get home, I'll split the discussion on privacy into a separate thread. Unless one of the other moderators wants to do it sooner.

 

[AutumnalTone]

It's not like I want to know every little detail about their relationship, believe me. I just don't want there to be secrets or boundaries crossed.

What people say is rather meaningless when what they do indicates something different. Obviously, you do want to know every little detail, because you went snooping. I'll suggest ferreting out the root of your issue that led to that.

I'll hallucinate that you're quite insecure, as you seem to be terrified that he might actually have a unique relationship with his OSO. Seriously, he can send pix and vids to her only if he also sends them to you? You can't live with the fact that he might do things with her that he doesn't with you? You want to make certain you get everything she does and then also what he would do with you without her?

I'll also hallucinate that he's struggling with this particular boundary because he wants to be able to have a relationship that isn't monitored by the warden at every turn. That he wants to have a relationship with her that doesn't require permission from Mommy for every damn thing he wants to do.

These are my hallucinations and may be grossly inaccurate. I will offer that they're worth considering.

 

[Minxxa]

What people say is rather meaningless when what they do indicates something different. Obviously, you do want to know every little detail, because you went snooping. I'll suggest ferreting out the root of your issue that led to that..

And I suggest that there's a difference between wanting to know every little thing, and knowing something dishonest is happening, and needing to find out what it is, so it can be handled.

I didn't want to know every detail of my hub's relationships, and I still don't. But when I know he's lying to me, it undercuts everything about our relationship. You cannot have a good relationship when that's going on.

I think some of us are more empathetic and can feel when somebody's not being honest with us, or is doing something that they don't feel they should be doing (regardless of what we think about it). They project that out, and I, for one, can pick up on it right away. So it's not like we sit there thinking, "I wonder what's going on, I'll go snoop." What's going on is hubs is acting weird, his words aren't matching what feelings he's projecting, something's odd and wrong and he won't tell me what it is, so I need to find out.

I did wait a long time before finally snooping, because I didn't want to snoop. But as the days, weeks, months passed, I was feeling more and more horrible, didn't trust anything that he said, and was building a resentment in him that was killing our relationship.

If someone's being honest and forthright with their partner, then they don't have to worry about being found out. Only dishonest people have that worry. If my hubs went through my email, I'd not be happy, but only because I'd wonder what he's feeling or thinking that he couldn't talk to me about any issues he's having. I'd gladly show him my email, my texts, everything, because I have nothing to hide. If showing him that makes him feel better, and we can talk about what brought up those feelings, then I'm all for it. I don't need extra privacy, because I am not hiding anything.

That said, now that we established that lying doesn't work, he tells me more about what's going on. I can ask for what I need, and I give him and his GF as much privacy as they want, because I am no longer being lied to.

For those that disagree, I have a question. Let's say the OP didn't snoop. Go back to before the snooping happened. She has a feeling over many months that her husband and his GF aren't keeping their boundaries, and she's talked to him directly about it and felt he was lying to her. So what should she do? Just go forth thinking her husband is lying, and doing things he shouldn't, and... do what?

 

[NeonKaos]

Exactly (Minxxa's last sentence).

Referring back to what I said about "if you don't want people to see your shit, don't put your shit where they can see it" - I really do think that keeping "incriminating" evidence where the people who you supposedly don't want to see it can find it is simply a passive-aggressive way of telling them something that you don't have the nerve to bring up in a straightforward manner.

Like Autumnal Tone suggested, it is possible that OP's Husband felt he was being treated as a child when it comes to his relationships with other people than his wife. The PROPER thing to do would be to say "Hon, I feel as if I'm being treated as a child when it comes to my relationships with other people besides yourself. Maybe it's time we re-evaluated some of our rules and boundaries? In particular, I'd like to be able to send sexy emails and texts to her without having to check with you first. You could do the same with your OSO, etc. etc."

But not "I'm sick of being beholden to my wife. She is not the boss of me. I'm just gonna do whatever the fuck I want. I'm a grown man. If she finds out and doesn't like it, I'll just bitch at her for invading my privacy. Boo-yah."

Srsly, nao. Is this REALLY "easier said than done"?

 

[stargazer23]

I throw my 2 cents in with "I'd rather be a snooper than a liar." This is not a mono vs. poly issue. Plenty of times, I have either been or seen a situation where one person does something, another person busts them by snooping, and suddenly it's all the person who snooped's fault because they invaded privacy. If you use privacy as an excuse to be dishonest, then expect to reap what you sow.

I personally find the (occasional) "crimes" one commits in the spirit of need and self-gratification to be far less troublesome than the premeditated crimes one commits in the spirit of suspicion, mistrust, jealousy and sense of entitlement.

In the first case, the involved parties can re-visit the terms, renegotiate and forge solutions together. The affected party may have gotten hurt but not personally violated.

In the second instance, you are violating someone's personal sense of space, liberty and safety in the relationship, all in the name of "If you don't TELL me what I want to know freely, I'm going to take the choice away from you." It wrongly sets someone up as righteous authoritarian and the other as guilty subordinate.

An equal, even-handed, logical discussion cannot take place in that dynamic.

 

[redpepper]

This still all gets back to being honest as soon as one can that a boundary is not working any more.

Sometimes boundaries get broken in order to realize they aren't working any more. So, pick yourself up and fix it. Let bygones be bygones. None of us are perfect in this process of being upstanding polyamorous citizens. We all do shit that we realize later was a mistake when it comes to consensually attempting to achieve polyamorous relationship dynamics.

Shit happens. Deal with it as soon as you can and move on. Leaving it to stew and creating all kinds of drama around it just makes it worse, and doesn't do anyone any favours, I don't think.

Overthinker, I still think saying to your hubby, "Hey hun, this boundary we have around pics and vids isn't working. Because I don't want to break it, and I'm sure you don't either, I think we should change it." Set a good example of what you expect from him and he likely will know to be upfront next time, because he knows what it feels like when you were (building empathetic responses). Let him save face this time and move on. If he does it again, then bring it up.

 

[sage]

Excellent thread guys. Some really insightful discussion.

This is the crux of it for me. Quoting Overthinker:

There have been some stressful things about our situation, and I think if he found out that I had been snooping, he would just throw in the towel and say he is just done with the relationships, which is something I don't want to have happen.

Like I said, "tip of the iceberg," and Grounded Spirit (such wisdom) expanded on.

Overthinker has a very precariously-balanced relationship that only seems to be able to function if her husband is allowed to lie and not be challenged over it for fear of the ramifications.

I would go as far as to say that you shouldn't be in a relationship under these conditions. I loved the way SourGirl and Neon put it. What's really important here? That someone who isn't trustworthy is allowed his privacy, or that a party in a committed relationship feels safe, loved and important enough to be honest about what she has done and how she feels, without the relationship ending?

 

[Overthinker]

Wow, I really wasn't expected so many diverse responses in such a small amount of time. I thank everyone for their opinions.

I haven't done anything about it yet. Life just has gone on as normal yesterday and today. I am still debating whether to just let it go or not. The fact that Bob sent the video to Alice does not bother me at all. For the record, it is something that he would normally send to me, as well. I acknowledge that they have a very different relationship than he and I do, to a point that sometimes the differences are somewhat comical and ironic (not in bad ways). Just as much as I acknowledge that my relationship with Ted is very different that mine with Bob. Oh, the perks of poly.

This was a boundary that we could have easily slid out of but we hadn't, yet. We have been having tons of conversations lately, resulting in eliminating boundaries, to let the other relationships evolve into whatever they may be; which both of us want, I might add.

What irks me the most is that when I did ask him if we still were following this particular boundary, he was very clear to me that I needed to make sure I let him know if and when I sent anything to Ted, but then he did the exact opposite, and couldn't even tell me that he broke the boundary. As many posters have said, boundaries can't be one-sided, they have to be agreed upon by those making the boundaries.

I am leaning towards just letting this one go, but wonder if this is just leaving the door open for more dishonesty in the future. All in all, a video is a very minor thing in the whole scheme of things.

 

[NeonKaos]

I would go as far as to say that you shouldn't be in a relationship under these conditions. I loved the way Sour Girl and Neon put it. What's really important here: that someone who isn't trust worthy is allowed his privacy or that a party in a committed relationship feels safe, loved and important enough to be honest about what she has done and how she feels without the relationship ending?

Sour Girl and I think exactly alike. It's eerie.

 

[Overthinker]

One thing that I do want to make clear is that when I said he would want to end the relationships it would be only the ones outside our marraige. I am not afraid of him wanting to end our marraige.