Hiding pain

Oh, this sounds like a case of differing love languages! There's a popular book - I haven't read it yet - a lot of peeps here are really into it. It's all about the ways we express love and how we want love expressed to us. Or something like that. Anyway, for example, some people need "acts of kindness" or "words of affirmation" to know that their partner is making an effort and expressing love, while others need "physical touch" or some other choices I can't recall now. There are tests to see which you are... when a partner becomes aware of your predominant love language, they see a choice in how to relate. And I've read here that often these things are surprising to the person who feels they've done enough because they expressed it in their love language to you but never thought in a million years that you need it expressed a different way, so you feel it was inadequate.

Quiz here: http://www.afo.net/hftw-lovetest.asp
 
sinew said:
Sometimes my husband is great, and sometimes not great. For him, the idea of supporting me is, I think, very tough. He says he feels like he messes up on this front all the time, but that sentiment doesn't seem to actually compel him to work harder at it. There is definitely an element of frustration on his part that what he believes ought to be plenty isn't enough (for me or Juliet, frankly).

In the end, I want to tell him when I'm in pain, but it causes so much confrontation that I dread it, too. It makes him defensive, and that doesn't help either of us.
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Hi Sinew,

This is one of the hard parts about getting on the same page. Although I haven't personally read the book either, I like NYCindie's advice to check out that Love Languages title. I've also heard good things about it. Maybe something in there can help get the ball rolling.

I suspect you're dealing with 2 things right now. Maybe it can help just to identify them together and see what each can do to bridge the gap.

There's likely a male vs female issue here. Men and women think differently, in many cases, interpret differently, and work on problems differently. That's neither good nor bad, just different. You each have to make allowances for this without letting it become a source of conflict.

There's also the logical vs emotional thing happening. He is trying to proceed based more on pure logic, and you are struggling more with the emotional conflict. You CAN choose, during any discussion, to only allow one side or the other to be discussed and analyzed. But you must take turns addressing both parts, so that one or the other isn't slighted. Pick one and start there. Work through some stuff, then switch to the other for awhile. I think this will help you both build your skills, and understanding of the other side, even though your base nature may lean one way or the other.

Does that make sense? Keep us informed.
 
The Five Love Languages book has been very interesting! I went on a relationship book shopping spree after reading some of that one, heh. There's some interesting research out there that I sure wasn't aware of, and it's eye-opening. At first, I was hesitant to look to mainstream relationship books, because I figured they would give me hell about the open marriage concept, but so far at least I've felt very encouraged about how to work on my marriage so that poly can work. I'm sure there's a lot of junk out there, but I've found several books so far that complement the Love Languages one and don't seem too gimmicky.

The original theme of this thread was whether or not it made sense to hide pain in my situation. I've read a lot in the past few days, and my current perspective is that while hiding it isn't right, becoming too attached to my pain is also something I need to watch for. A lot of the research in the books I'm reading now says that one partner telling the other constantly about how bad they feel invokes a shame reaction in the partner, that very often leads to a pattern of defensiveness based on that shame. A partner will often take the expression of pain as an accusation of failure. This may explain why most of my husband's reactions are not sympathetic.

I can definitely relate. My sense of shame and inadequacy is provoked very easily, and viewed from this angle, I think I can understand better why he might be blocking out all the times I've told him about my pain. He's protecting himself, because, as partners, we aren't in tune enough to be able to share our pain right now. I know that each of the times he's told me he was in pain, I've absolutely panicked, believing I'll lose him and be alone. I cope with this by deciding irrationally that I can fix everything, or by withdrawing into depression. I would not be surprised at all to learn that his coping mechanism has more to do with denial and "disproving" what I feel.

In either response, I think we're presenting and dealing with each other's pain poorly, and it's an area I'm going to try my best to find more techniques for handling. I'm realizing I've probably put the cart before the horse in all my efforts to work out my ability to deal with poly. There are a number of prerequisites, and among them are the abilities to express and interpret pain supportively. I have a lot of fear wrapped up in the idea that I won't be able to truly get on board with poly before his patience runs out, but I also realize that where I'm at with my present state of mind isn't right or wrong-- it's just reality. And if his patience does run out before I get to where he wants me to be, then our relationship just won't work out. It isn't what I want, but so it goes.

Thank you all for the insights and advice. You have really helped me.
 
I have found that sometimes we say one thing and our partner hears something else, in which case, we are not being effective in our communication. We might as well be speaking different languages. How we express ourselves can make a huge difference in the initial reaction our partner has.

My husband tends to ask "Why?" instead of being sympathetic, putting my on the defensive when I'm already struggling with issues. It can make me feel as if he is calling me an idiot. What I hear is "Why in the hell would you feel that way? That's just stupid!" There are things that I do that put him on the defensive immediately also (can't remember what they are right now :p).

Do a search for Non-Violent Communication; it can make a huge difference. I don't know if there is a tag search on that here, but there is stuff all over the web.
 
What's been really helpful for Karma and me is a conversation like this:

"I am feeling this____. I think it is because of _______."

"Okay I am hearing you say you feel (what, in his words he thinks I am saying) and you think it is b/c of (again his interpretation of what I said.) Is that correct?"

"Yes/no clarification."

"Okay, what can I do to help? What do you need from me to not feel that way/feel better/heal?"

It's been hugely helpful. We learned that we spoke totally different languages, and had completely different definitions of the same word. Doing this made all the difference for us.

The thing is, though, Karma is willing to work, to hear me, to help me, and I him.

And I totally agree with you, Sinew, when you are only discussing the pain, it is very hard for the spouse to see or hear anything else. Karma and I had to restrict ourselves to certain periods of time. We only discuss the pain for a certain amount of time. Then that's it. For awhile it was even, he can only discuss *her* for a certain period of time, and then not again the rest of the night.

Then we focussed on us.

Eventually, we let go of the time frames, because the wounds were no longer so raw that it was all we talked about it. It was easier to handle bringing things up as we experienced them, b/c we weren't always having to discuss something painful or how horribly he hurt me.

I realised I wasn't recognizing him for the good things. So I made it a point to say Thank you. I also made it a point to say "When you did what I needed and followed my boundaries today, that meant a lot, and rebuilt some trust, because now I know I can count on you for that."

I've found that 1000 positive comments can be lost by one negative. I know the negative needs to happen and we have to discuss the hard stuff, so I make sure I am recognizing all the good stuff, as well.

Once all of that fell into place, not only was he more patient, but I healed faster and we grew closer.
 
Hi Sinew,

I just read all the posts in this thread and related to a lot of it.

My wife sounds like she is similar to you. She needs lots of space to process her emotions, and because of this, can tend to repress it, as well, or struggle to tell me. She has not wanted a poly life. I have realised that I have always been poly but have lived a mono life with her.

She is trying to be OK with the poly life, but she gets very emotional. I can tell it really hurts her. This makes it very difficult for me to truly engage in this life, because naturally, I don't want to hurt the love of my life. But the longer I keep waiting and not living what I consider to be an authentic life for myself, the more I am hurting too.

So we seem to be stuck right now.

The difficulty I have with her is that I feel she has not TRULY decided to change her belief systems around poly, and therefore, does not support poly. I think she feels forced into the decision because she doesn't want to lose me.

Grounded Spirit said something in one of his earlier comments about belief systems. I think there is a lot of truth to this. Perhaps Charlie and Juliet sense that there is more than just emotions coming out. Maybe they feel, like me, that you have not really chosen poly? In fact, just the other day, my wife said she feels like she has dipped her toe in the water with regards to poly, but not dived in. That's exactly how I feel about how she is!

For my wife and me, it means that I don't feel like we are on the same page. It means that it is very hard to move forward. And it is difficult for me not to resent the fact that she has not been able to make a full decision here.

The question here then is, how does one come to a point of diving in, not just dipping their toe in? I don't think it's a case of just clicking our fingers and saying OK, I'll jump in. The depth of emotions involved is too complex for that.

How does a mono person, who has not signed up for a poly life, make a decision to fully support and dive into this life (without it necessarily meaning that they live a poly life themselves, if they are truly mono)? If I felt like my wife had made this decision and had dived in, I am convinced that things would be different for us, and the painful emotions we experience would not be nearly as intense...
 
polyexplorer said:
How does a mono person who has not signed up for a poly life make a decision to fully support and dive into this life (without it necessarily meaning that they live a poly life themselves, if they are truly mono)? If I felt like my wife had made this decision and had dived in, I am convinced that things would be different for us, and the painful emotions we experience would not be nearly as intense...
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In order to embrace poly the way you do, she would likely have to be poly. And maybe she is not. If she is mono, then what you are asking for is basically like asking a devoted Muslim to embrace Christianity just because it'll make going to church easier for you. You can find a comfortable compromise in a mono/poly relationship, but to expect your wife to change how she fundamentally works, to make how you work easier, is a little selfish, don't you think?

I've been in a mono/poly relationship for over 2.5 years, as the mono, and I can tell you I am no closer to completely embracing or fully understanding poly as a way to engage in relationships. I am very happy, but I doubt if there could ever be the same type of calm peaceful feeling that a mono relationship can provide. On the other side of the coin, I doubt if Redpepper will be able to achieve the same level of understanding and support from me as she does from her poly husband. But we are happy and committed.

Keep working and be patient.
 
Thanks, Mono, for your response. I appreciate hearing your perspective.

On the surface, it seems that the difference between the place you are at, the place my wife is at, is that I constantly feel like I am walking on eggshells with anything to do with poly. For example, I know she feels uncomfortable with me even reading this site. I feel her discomfort and pain.

I am not expecting her to embrace the poly life or perhaps even to fully understand it. But I do want her to want it for me. At the moment, she is forcing herself to allow it for me, but that creates tension for her and me. I am doing my best to give her the space and patience she needs. She is trying hard, but I feel there is a decisive point she needs to reach that she hasn't yet.

Using your analogy, if I were Muslim and she Christian, I do not want her to convert to Islam, but I want her to be supportive of me being Muslim, and want this for me because it is important to me.

So my question is, if indeed it is true that she there is a decisive point still to be reached, a tipping point, if you like, where one can want the poly life for their partner, even though they themselves don't want it for themselves, how does this decisive point get reached? Perhaps a complex question, but I'd be interested in responses.
 
I think it's important to realize it will likely take some time to adjust to such a huge shift in perception, especially if you had a monogamous deal with marriage and are now changing the game rules. To go into a relationship thinking it's one way, and then realizing it's something different, something that society at large isn't promoting, maybe something against everything you've ever believed, you don't just change your mind and adjust overnight.

I hear you saying that you just want her to be happy for you. I wonder if you realize what that means to her. You want her to change how she feels and what she's always thought, to be happy that you want to have emotional and sexual relationships with other people besides her. That is asking a lot.

What if she said she just wanted you to agree to be monogamous, and be happy with that? Could you adjust to being monogamous, give up your ideas of what you want and who you are for the other person?

I'm only throwing this out because I think that when you try to open an already established monoamorous relationship, you have to realize how much change that is, how much work, and that for some people it just won't be possible. I think not pushing and giving some time is not so much to ask.

I've heard stories about people who talk about polyamory, and it takes years before they actually open up, because it takes the mono person that long to adjust, and for the couple to work on their own relationship to get it strong to the point where poly is possible.
 
polyexplorer said:
So my question is, if indeed it is true that she there is a decisive point still to be reached, a tipping point if you like where one can want the poly life for their partner even though they themselves don't want it for themselves, how does this decisive point get reached? Perhaps a complex question, but I'd be interested in responses...
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That's a tough question, my friend. Does she really know what you want from polyamory? Do you? Polyamory is a such a broad term. Some people find a need to only have one other partner that they fell in love with, while others see it as a philosophical way to live life, always open to new relationships. One is easier to come to terms with for a partner who isn't poly, I think.

Maybe the decisive point never gets reached, and neither of you fully get the completeness you want from this relationship. I want Redpepper to always have her husband... but I am the boyfriend. If I were her husband, I doubt if I could ever "want" poly for her. Our situation is vastly different, from my perspective.

Patience and lots of talk are needed. If this is something you truly want, you have to be willing to assume some risk to achieve it. Gently push, and work through it, regardless of what that looks like. Ultimately, both of you need to be healthy, happy and fulfilled.
 
The idea of limiting the frequency and length of our heavy conversations is probably a good idea. I'm pretty familiar with the better ways to talk out conflict from my professional life, but I've found it pretty hit-or-miss in this situation. Charlie wants me to get better, but feels helpless, and I feel frustrated because my practical suggestions aren't in the spirit of what he wants. I suggest things like schedules and boundaries, and he says it's too complicated (which is probably true). What I really need to do is to "come around" to poly, and while he wants to give me time, he also doesn't want to hear that it could be a long, long time.

I have to agree with Minxxa's comments on Polyexplorer's situation. It would behoove poly folks who are trying to bring their mono partners around that this is no easier for the mono to want the relationship you envision than for you to want the relationship they envision. It seems like an impasse. I know that's how it has felt to me.

Polyexplorer, if your wife is like me, if she is trying, I implore you to celebrate that. If she is finding that she can open just a little bit to the idea, be grateful. Let her know you realize and are proud of how brave she is trying to be for you. If you can find a way to let this struggle bring you closer, you may find that she is able to adjust more easily than if she is feeling pressured. I virtually guarantee you that she can sense your impatience, and that is contributing to her discomfort. Here she is dipping a toe in what (for her) is water that's quite possibly infested with sharks, and you are making her feel bad for not being able to jump in.

Regarding the idea of a decisive point, I have some experience with that. I'm used to being able to put my mind to something and make it happen. I decide, and it stays decided. I've written pages and pages of instructions to myself, copied poems and passages, created flash cards (yes, geeky), and listened to tapes about letting go of negative emotion every day for months. I have tried like hell to decide to want poly for my husband, and it just doesn't work that way. It makes my heart ache in ways I've never felt before, and I am not an emotional person. I've even tried to just say to hell with all the problems I've still got with it, and I'll just be "in", for better and for worse. I don't recommend that approach.
 
sinew said:
the idea of setting boundaries still fills me with dread. How do I select which things I'm supposed to be accepting and which I'm not when I can't promise not to be upset by any of them? . . .

I'm working to overcome bitterness about the affair, a lifelong problem with jealousy . . . And I know they don't want to wait that long, so we're all going to have to learn to live with pain somehow...
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sinew said:
While hiding it isn't right, becoming too attached to my pain is also something I need to watch for.

I have a lot of fear wrapped up in the idea that I won't be able to truly get on board with poly before his patience runs out.
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sinew said:
Charlie wants me to get better. I suggest things like schedules and boundaries, and he says it's too complicated (which is probably true). What I really need to do is to "come around" to poly, and while he wants to give me time, he also doesn't want to hear that it could be a long, long time.

I have tried like hell to decide to want poly for my husband, and it just doesn't work that way. It makes my heart ache in ways I've never felt before . . .
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The thing that strikes me most about your posts, and especially the passages I've quoted above, is how much you keep seeing your process as a problem, as if you're not getting it right or good enough, and how bad you feel that you aren't able to give Charlie what he wants as quickly as he wants it. I think more compassion for yourself is in order.

The fact is that Charlie took what he wanted already, had his cake and ate it too, dishonestly. Just because you are agreeing to consider poly doesn't give him license to have a tantrum because he wants you to move more quickly. This is trauma you are recovering from. I feel that Charlie should be doing everything he can to earn your trust again. He needs to really see the beauty of your forgiveness and how much you have given him already, just in that. If he and Juliet have something so great, it can wait for you and Charlie to repair what broke between you -- but HE has major work to do on the relationship he has with you. It shouldn't all be up to you.

That being said, I really like your comment about being watchful for those moments you become attached to your pain. This is such an important awareness. It's like how a kid learns to get attention (bear with my analogy): kid falls down, scrapes his knee, it stings a little. He whimpers a bit, then starts to get up, only to realize that none of the adults around him noticed. Wants to be fussed over, so gets back down and starts to cry until someone comes over. With all the attention he receives, kid starts focusing on his boo-boo, and now it really hurts! This establishes a pattern of making some noise/creating drama and developing an attachment to pain to get attention. The kid, now an adult, still does it automatically, in some fashion, in all his relationships -- until he becomes aware. Then he has a choice.

The fact is that pain ebbs and flows, and real organic emotions rise of their own accord. When we dwell on certain thoughts over and over, we can manufacture emotions and hang on to them -- and doing that is a manifestation of attachment. It's good to look at our motives. The trick is to honor our process and know that sometimes it will feel like you've moved on, and then other times there will be sadness or what-have-you, but you need to find a balance between having patience for yourself and not giving into self-indulgence. This is a big challenge for myself, personally, as well.
 
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Thanks for the comments, kind people.

I am very aware that it is a huge shift to move from a monoamorous upbringing to a polyamorous one. I certainly don't expect that to shift overnight. We have been working through this for six years now. I don't think it's a patience thing, either.

I think that what I can do better is to let go of any sense of pressure or expectation. That's what I want to do for my wife.

The place that we are stuck is about deciding what we want. I have decided. I now know that to be true to myself I must live polyamorously. If my wife decided that she definitely wanted to be in a mono marriage and have someone love her, and only her, at an intimate level (and this is a perfectly legitimate thing to want), then I would have to say to her that I am not the person who can provide that for her.

We love each other deeply, so this makes things really difficult for my wife. On the one hand, she does want a mono marriage. On the other hand, she recognises my capacity and desire to love more than one, sees that this is good for me, and deep down, realises that I cannot keep going in a relationship that does not allow me to express this love for others. So, in her mind, the only choices are to get on board with poly or let me go. Not an easy choice! The difficulty is she has yet to fully make that choice. The difficulty for me is to give her the space and freedom she needs to come to that choice, when the longer this stalemate keeps going on the more pain I feel.

Time and space will reveal all.
 
Okay, I have typed, deleted, typed again, deleted again. And well, without writing a novel to spit out my POV, lol, it's like this.

TRUST- Once broken, it's very hard to mend. Like a pretty glass bowl glued back together, you will always see the cracks.

My husband is my life. (Well, throw our rugrats in there, too.) I was sitting here reading this and I guess I was a lil shocked. A few points here--

1. If my hubs cheated on me, or I him, it would be over in a flat second. That is a huge no-no in our house. Being dishonest and breaking trust is something we don't stand for with each other. I don't tolerate lying from my kids. I wouldn't want to wonder if the adult was being honest every day.
2. My husband is my protector. That being said, he would NEVER force me into a situation I was not comfortable with, whether that were poly or otherwise. I wouldn't ask him to change, just as he wouldn't ask me. We discussed becoming poly, and I didn't agree for a year. And this was for me to have a partner, not him.
3. I wouldn't hide my pain. If something hurts, I get it out, rather than let it fester. If you are not comfortable in this lifestyle, you shouldn't do it. Period.
4. Don't change just to make someone else happy. The SO that wants to be poly with mono partners, well, in the end, why force a square peg into a round hole just to make you happy? I spent many years when I was younger (I'm talking kid and teen, to old for that BS now) being someone I wasn't to please my parents, so-called friends, etc. No way I could do that as a adult. It's hard enough to go through the emotions of feeling you're not wanted anymore, or you don't please your partner anymore, without saying the relationship will be over if you don't do what I want in this, thus reaffirming those horrible feelings the partner was feeling, because there, you pretty much say you're not good enough. You don't please me.

Okay, off my soapbox. Just some insight from an insecure female who felt every ounce of this.

Chris
 
You're right, NYCindie, self-compassion is something I need to spend more effort on. It gets buried very quickly when I feel under pressure. And forgetting to show compassion for myself sets me up to make stupid decisions that I will regret.

Polyexplorer, I definitely respect that you've had the patience to work on this for 6 years. I have to say that if I try to get myself to accept my husband's poly life for that long and still can't to cope without suffering, I'd be gone. It would be terribly, terribly hard, but it would be the most compassionate thing for both of us. I don't disagree with his decision or yours. But after 6 years struggling, it may be time to accept that we aren't compatible, and that if we truly want happiness for each other, we should let go.

Just3, I love your conviction. :) I miss feeling so sure. I suppose everyone thinks they know what they'd do if they discovered their partner having an affair. But I would point out that as much as you hate lying from your children, you don't actually disown them when they do it. You might wish you could, especially when it's something very bad, but in the end love compels you to try and forgive. I think it's a lot like that, and that may be why more women forgive their cheating partners than men forgive their cheating partners.

Ironically, one of the first people I told about the affair, a long-time friend whose convictions about fidelity are very strong, told me a couple of weeks ago that his wife had just admitted to cheating. I felt terrible for him, but wondered if the same desire to repair the relationship would kick in for him they way it did for me. I know he loved his wife deeply. Alas, he looks at her now like a completely different person, and the divorce papers have been filed. It's just interesting how differently people respond to this kind of emotional event.
 
sinew said:
Just3, I love your conviction. :) I miss feeling so sure. I suppose everyone thinks they know what they'd do if they discovered their partner having an affair. But I would point out that as much as you hate lying from your children, you don't actually disown them when they do it. You might wish you could, especially when it's something very bad, but in the end love compels you to try and forgive. I think it's a lot like that, and that may be why more women forgive their cheating partners than men forgive their cheating partners.
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LOL. I wish I was sure all the time. But I'm often flying by the seat of my pants and hoping the day turns out well.

No, I cant disown the kids (tempting when I have a preteen right now...).

I think you're right that forgiveness is possible. It's not forgotten. I have been cheated on before and it hurt. Yeah... I tried to forgive. I tried to move on. And honestly, I would have, if it weren't for all the other lies mixed in.

My kids know it's a lot of work to make up for a lie, no matter how small. The same goes for an adult. I give allowances to kids because their motivations are childish ones, and children are impulsive. It's a lot harder to give allowances to adults because they are, well... adults. Most kids don't have a conscience, so when they lie it's just a self-serving thing that most the time they don't realize its going to affect someone else. So that's what we teach kids. Adults have already outgrown this, or they should. lol I have known many people my age who I swear were never taught anything about that.

I say, good luck! You seem to be a very strong person and your heart seems to be very caring. It's very brave to come ask for help and insight. And the advice here is wonderful. I have used it many times. :)

Chris
 
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