Communicating seems to be over

L

lovinhimloviner

New member
Before I head to bed, I need to post this, so maybe I will have something to work with tomorrow. Harlan and I do not know how to talk to each other anymore. He said he is afraid to talk to me about anything because I can't control when I cry. He is afraid to talk to me. Talking to him usually ends up upset and mad. It is always the same conversation, even if the topic is different. I say something that bothers me, and I then hear how it is my fault that it happened, or that it is that way. He doesn't know how else to speak to me and I can't explain a better way to speak. Pissed tone of voice and blaming is not communication.

I don't feel like I have much of a relationship with him anymore, because what is a relationship if you can't talk about real issues? Small talk and what we did seems to be all that can be accomplished anymore. I am heading to be sad that it is getting worse rather than better. I wish I could express how I would rather be talked to, but I can't seem to do it. We are both bad about this. I can communicate with everyone else in the world but him. What kind of a decade-long marriage is that? Not much of one, if you ask me.

But I am emotional and tired, so I'm heading to bed.
 
I suggest counseling. A counselor can help you guys work through the emotions to reach what really needs to be said in a more effective way. And a lot of times, one person just needs to shut up and listen to what the other has to say, then step back to chew on what was said, and come back later with a clearer head.

This is a hard one for me. I always seem to need to get my two cents in right away, without any real thought or filter on anything. But I am getting better about it.

Also, writing things out is a great way to get what you're trying to say into a clearer, less threatening manner.

No matter what, do not retaliate with words! As angry as something may make you, bite that tongue! Wait until you've thought it through before responding. This may take until the next day or the next week, but make sure you have thought it through first. I've almost wondered if I'd make my tongue bleed sometimes. The heat of the moment is not the time to try and get your point across about very sensitive subjects. We all know it just ends up coming out wrong during those times.

One of my favorite quotes is: "Right actions produce right attitudes." Put the right actions into practice (even if you don't feel like doing it) and after a while, the right attitude will come along with it.
 
Counselling is a good idea, but you have a lot on your plate at the moment, so it may not be possible.

I am a crier too. It used to drive my ex-husband nuts. So we stopped communicating, and the marriage ended. I was determined this was not going to happen in my new (now three-year old) relationship. I told Z I cry when discussing hard stuff, because I can't help it. But he needs to ignore it, if he can, and focus on what I'm saying, rather than the tears. I find if I talk often, there is less emotional build-up, and so less crying.

Tell your husband that you need to be heard, and not fixed. The fixing can evolve later. Just start by asking him to listen to you and hold you without commenting.
 
Just holding me might even help. We always go to the bedroom because that is where there is privacy. He lies down with his back to me, and I sit there trying to think of what I want to say to make it come out the best way I can.

I know he doesn't mean to talk to me the way he does. He swears he hasn't changed in that department. Maybe he is right, but it seems like he is distant and angry. His tone of voice is what makes me cry usually, not so much what he says. After I cry, and he is mad, then it is usually what he says. We just can't seem to talk.

I have brought up counseling so many times, but I don't feel like I am worth the effort to him to go. So I go and focus on fixing me.

I know he loves me, but I am so afraid this will eventually end our marriage. It has nothing to do with Meg or John, because we are both really happy with our other relationships. It is us, plain and simple, and I am scared. When we stopped being able to talk to each other, it stopped being a strong couple and just started being here. This may not make any sense, but I had to talk to someone.

I know I can talk to John about anything, but I don't like talking about my marriage, because it already takes up so much of our life that I feel like I am neglecting him. I am trying to be fair with my time, but it is hard, with the three of us living together, to find a good balance.
 
Like Openbj and Sage said, counseling will help.

sage said:
I told Z I cry when discussing hard stuff, because I can't help it, but he needs to ignore it, if he can and focus on what I'm saying, rather than the tears. I find if I talk often, there is less emotional build-up and so less crying.

Tell your husband that you need to be heard, not fixed. The fixing can evolve later. Just start by asking him to listen to you, and hold you without commenting.
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I cry too, any time there is flood of emotions. What I have learned through our counseling is that the tears usually come when I feel I'm not being heard, or feel like I'm being dismissed (unless it's PMS week).

lovinhimloviner said:
I have brought up counseling so many times, but I don't feel like he thinks I am worth the effort to go.
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You don't feel like you're worth the effort, so no one goes? Or he won't go, so you don't feel like your worth the effort? For us, it took a major crisis. It was a choice between divorce or counseling. I just made an appointment and said, "If you want to stay married, you will go with me. The appointment is tomorrow at 7 pm." That was nearly a year ago, and we still are going once a month. It has made a world of difference and has been well worth it.

Communication takes work. Stuff we might have been able to brush aside and ignore early on, eventually becomes a big deal. Facing each other is a big part of that. You can't communicate well if you're talking to someone's back!
 
True communication really is an art form. Unfortunately, very few of us get much coaching in it growing up. This could be really simple, because there's loads of help out there-- courses, seminars, self-help books, etc., that you have access to. But in order for that to work, you both have to acknowledge you are not communicating, and have the willingness and desire to fix that. If you have that, the rest is easy.

See if you can have just this conversation with him. This needs to be a "We both suck" kind of conversation, not one about who's the worst, at fault, etc. Just from your writing, I think it's obviously a true statement. "We both suck." Then see if there's desire to get better at it. Maybe there isn't. That's another thread.
 
Communication is a skill like any other. It has to be learned. Some people are natural at it, but most of us just aren't. And men and women communicate in completely different ways, which makes understanding what's going on, or really being said, that much harder.

I do agree that counseling is really going to be needed to help you work on communication skills. It's probably the #1 thing couples counselors do, because most of the issues couples have are because of poor communicating, or not understanding what the other person is saying. We can hear the exact same words and not get the same meaning out of them, so it's important to clarify what that person actually MEANS.

There's a woman who has studied all of this and written a few books about how people communicate and listen. Her name is Deborah Tannen, and the first book I read was called, "You just don't understand." It's about women and men in conversation. Total eye opener. There's another one called "That's not what I meant," which goes deeper into the misunderstandings people have when communicating.

There's a type of counseling therapy called "Imago" therapy. It's a bit slow, and not my favorite, but what they do is that the couple will sit, looking at each other, and one person will say what they need to communicate. The other person will sit for a minute, then repeat back to them what they think they heard. Then the first person will either say, yes that's what I meant, or correct them because that's not what I meant. There's a little more to it, and having a counselor there to catch things helps, but the basic concept can be applied by couples, especially when discussing difficult things.

That way, you sit and think about what you need to really say, and say it, and he tells you what he is hearing. He doesn't REPLY to it right away, he only tells you what he think you meant.

It can also help to clarify types of conversations. (I am learning to do this with my hubs.) Some examples:

"I am feeling a bit down and need to talk to you. I don't want you to try to fix anything, just listen to me, let me express it and hold me."

"I have some concerns about X. I need to express them to you, and know you have heard me, and are taking them into consideration. I do NOT need you to agree with my take on the situation, but I do need you to respect my concerns, and at least listen to them without blowing them off."

I too can get to crying during conversations. It's usually due to two things. 1) my concerns are not being listened to, and just blown off as me being "over-worried," "jealous," or "not seeing things correctly," or 2) my husband doesn't want to hear what I'm saying and reacts with that "tone" in his voice-- usually anger or frustration.

I feel your frustration. We have been in a similar place, to the point where we just stopped communicating. He is finally realizing that communicating isn't as hard as he thought, that it prevents a lot of problems in the first place, and that it's opening up a world that he didn't know existed.

But I tried for years to get him to understand that... and never succeeded. He finally got there on his own. I'm not really sure what was the turning point for him. Maybe I'll ask and see. But whatever it was, it was inside him, and not something I said to convince him.
 
lovinhimloviner said:
My husband and I do not know how to talk to each other any more. He said he is afraid to talk to me about anything, because I can't control when I cry.
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Most of us men were (wrongly) taught that crying is utterly unacceptable. It is possible that your own crying reminds your husband of some emotional pain he carries that would cause him to cry if he allowed the dam to break. People with suppressed and repressed pain generally feel uncomfortable about the free expression of feeling which they suppress in themselves. So this may be more about your husband's not crying than about your crying.

lovinhimloviner said:
I say something that bothers me, and I then hear how it is my fault that it happened, or that it is that way.
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Ouch! Please, please, sit him down and tell him that this is how it feels to you, that whenever you talk and mention anything that bothers you, that he makes it your fault, and then how that feels to you. Try to woo his empathy out of him. Say, "Darling, it would be so good for me if you could just empathize with me on this. How would it feel to you if I said all of the difficult things are your fault?"

He may actually feel that it is all his fault, while being afraid to speak it out loud. He may have some terrible terror that everything's his fault and so he's trying desperately to throw it off onto you because he feels terribly burdened with guilt or shame.

Maybe you can talk and get to a place where fault is not what is at hand, but opportunity, instead. Why not reframe things so that each of you, together, have this opportunity to recognize issues and problems in a welcoming way and to creatively and collaboratively work with them -- for your mutual benefit? It doesn't need to be anybody's fault. It can be a fun game of "Let's learn how to be happy together, for both of us!"
 
I know when I get frustrated it is hard for me not to get defensive. When the conversation (if you can call it that) ends abruptly with, "Yep, you're right, I'm wrong," when I didn't even mean to make it sound that way, it hurts.

I know it is both of us. We used to be able to talk about anything. I think what hurts the most is that I don't feel like we are best friends anymore.

Today I told him that I will miss him when I start working 60+ hours. The response I got was a frowny face and, "I don't know why you miss me so much. All I do is make you upset or mad." Now, I'm not sure what would have sounded better to me, but that just made me feel like crap. Made me feel guilty, when all I was looking for was love.
 
lovinhimloviner said:
I'm not sure what would have sounded better to me, but that just made me feel like crap. Made me feel guilty, when all I was looking for was love.
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And that is the moment you tell him, "Saying that just made me feel like crap. I don't need to feel guilty when all I wanted to do was express my love for you."

Why do you so easily give up on yourself?
 
nycindie said:
And that is the moment you tell him, "Saying that just made me feel like crap. I don't need to feel guilty when all I wanted to do is express my love for you."

Why do you so easily give up on yourself?
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This!

It's not too late. Sounds like he is feeling just as frustrated and no one knows how to fix it.
 
First, like everyone else said, get counseling. A skilled outsider will be able to help you and your husband sort through why you can't listen and talk to each other about important stuff.

Second, from your description, both of of you appear to be very worried about what is going on internally, emotionally, with the other person. It's gotten to the point where both of you are so wrapped up in what the other person is feeling that you cannot hear what the other person is actually saying. Your personal interpretation of the other person's feelings may or may not be accurate. However, focusing so much on what the other person is feeling, whether in response to you or not, has had the effect that neither of you can actually hear or talk about what is actually going on in your respective heads.
 
Well, every time I post on here, I say something to upset someone. So I am going to take a break from here and deal with my problems on my own. Thank you again for all of your advice. I will take it and use it the best I can and hope things will get better.
 
So what if they get upset? That's on them! You're not responsible for how they choose to react. You are responsible for your own well-being and emotional health, however. Bottling up all your hurt and feelings of loss will not do anyone any good. There is no good reason to set your own needs aside and defer to others just to appease them by "keeping quiet." They've all got some growing up to do. It isn't kind or helpful to shut you down every time you try to express yourself. All of you need to talk, talk, and talk some more, if you all want a healthy poly tangle.
 
nycindie said:
So what if they get upset? That's on them! You're not responsible for how they choose to react. You are responsible for your own well-being and emotional health, however. Bottling up all your hurt and feelings of loss will not do anyone any good. There is no good reason to set your own needs aside and defer to others just to appease them by "keeping quiet." It isn't kind or helpful to shut you down every time you try to express yourself. All of you need to talk, talk, talk.
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I tend to agree. And I'm not sure why you can't be allowed a useful outlet here, with experienced people to help you work through some issues and help you see what you need to discuss with the others.

Why do they need to even read what you post? If it's going to bother them to read it, then instead of you not posting, maybe they should not read?
 
Yeah, we don't know who the hell you all are. You could be behind me in line at the grocery store, for all I know.
 
Explanation, for hubby's sake

They tell me not to give up this site, my only support system. I am backing off for my own sanity because I can not deal with all the drama my feelings cause. Every time I write something it upsets someone.

This time it was Harlan. He thinks I make him out to be a bad guy. I don’t mean to. He has never been an abusive person and never would be. He was upset about a few things, so I feel the need to clarify a couple of them.

He did make more money than I did a couple of months ago, and did have to sell his grandpa’s car to help pay the rent. I’m not saying there isn’t an effort there anywhere but to me, and I’m sure this will cause a whole night worth of drama, it is few and far between. Before he got laid off the last time he worked for a month. That month he made more money than me.

To the best of my knowledge, there has not been a single application filled out or resume sent anywhere since then. Since it is going on two months now since he got laid off, I feel like his kids and I aren’t worth the effort it takes to at least try to get a job. If he still can't get a job, then I would be more understanding. But when there is just no effort, then what should I feel? He claims to never pass up a job, but it feels like he expects the jobs to fall into his lap with little to no effort on his part.

As far as communication goes, I obviously suck at it. I didn’t mean that I was perfect and he sucks. Never once did I say or think that I am perfect in any way. I just get really tired of never saying or doing anything right. It isn’t that I think Harlan is a monster or anything. I just want all of us to work together to deal with whatever comes up.

Harlan and Meg are more internal people. I understand that, I guess. I told him last night that I just miss us and how we used to be able to talk about anything. He then informed me that he hasn’t been able to talk to me since shortly after we got married. He said he was too afraid of upsetting me or making me cry. So for 9 years-- what? We haven’t really had the strong wonderful marriage that I thought we had?

I was crushed. I felt like our whole marriage was a lie or something. I know it isn’t that dramatic, but that is how I felt. After the hurt feelings and resentment that I am sure this will cause tonight, I will try to back off from here and maybe just send PMs instead. Maybe someone knows of another site that I can go to without anyone knowing, under a different name, that I can be completely honest without the drama of the fight that follows. I just wanted to make sure that everyone knew I love my husband and I do not think he is a horrible person at all. I just wish things were different.

I am also sorry for all of the retarded drama. I feel like I have PMS all the damn time now. It has just been a rollercoaster of emotions and I am about to break.

Harlan and Meg went out last night and I got a night alone with John. I was so relaxed and happy when they got back. Harlan seemed happy too, till he saw that I was in a great mood, after doing everything I could not to cry before he left. I know this is not the case, but I feel like he wants me to be sad with John too. He claims he wants me to be happy, even if it is John that does that for me, but he is still getting over the feeling of betrayal because John was his best friend. So he still gets upset to see me happy with him.

I never meant to fall in love with John, but he makes me happy. He talks to me about anything! He holds me when I cry and comforts me. I know I couldn’t live without John in my life-- ever. I need him and he needs me.

He isn’t working either, and he knows that bothers me, because we can talk to each other and hear what the other person is saying.

He has left for a few days to go to his parent’s house, to try to find a job closer to a bigger city and help his folks out some. I wished him luck and told him how much he means to me. Then he left. He hated leaving me with things in an upheaval, but it has to be done. Me starting a second job really really bothers him.

I love the fact that he is as emotional as I am, because it is easy to see what is going on with him. I love both of my guys so so very much. I can’t wait to get past all of this retarded-ass bull crap so we can enjoy our lives together.

I worry that Harlan wouldn’t be better off just being with Meg. I would never want to lose him, but why in the hell would he wanna stay with someone he hasn’t been able to talk to in 9 years? I just feel so bad that I didn’t even notice that our relationship wasn’t in a good place. I feel stupid now, looking back on what I thought was a strong enough relationship to get involved with polyamory. Had I known beforehand that everything was not how I thought, I would have never ever allowed myself to admit my feelings for John. We would have never gotten into this. Now it is too late. We are both 100% in love with other people and trying to turn our marriage into a stable one. I really wish I would have known that our marriage wasn't what I thought it was. It makes me feel so stupid!
 
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Lovin,' breathe, hon. One more time. Again.

Okay.

*hugs*

I'm so sorry Harlan's revelation hit you so hard. It's amazing how little we know about people we live with and adore, isn't it? Beloved has said and done things that have just clocked me-- shaken my foundation terribly. The fact that your mental picture of your marriage does not match Harlan's does not mean that you and he are doomed. In fact, you have a great opportunity.

I can feel the love you have for him, and he for you, through the screen. And I never got the sense that you thought it was all his fault, or that you weren't responsible, too. The walls between you two are crumbling, which is very, very painful. But it also means you two can now clear the rubble and build something even greater together.

*hugs* again

Maybe Meg and John should agree not to read what you write here. This could be your private venting space. I'm glad Beloved is not on this site. It would really hinder what I need to write and think about out loud here. I tell her anyway, but I process first. I respect the heck out of the folks that make it work with all their loves on the site.
 
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