Is my partner abusive?

Hello dear community!
I’ve been coming back to this forum as a silent reader over the years again and again - now I’ve finally made an account to kindly ask you for feedback on my current fuck up.

I am in a hierarchical poly relationship with Max since seven years. I would prefer non-hierarchical relationships, as they fit my ideals better, but Max needs the safety of being primaries for each other. He has currently two other partners, one since years but they live far away and one quite new in another city nearer by.
I am and have been for the longest time without other partners as it takes a lot for me to crush on someone and we’ve talked often how I miss dating someone new - I was more than happy though to experience second-hand New Relationship Energy via compersion

So now two weeks ago the magical thing happened: I met someone new and it clicked. Let’s call him Ron. Our first date was amazing and I left with butterflies, we did not get physical as this always needs Maxs „okay“. Max needs to know everything in advance that happens for me in other relationships. He want veto rights and know in advance about date plans, kissing, sex, overnights, everything would need a prior okay and only in little steps. So I told him about the date and got an okay for kissing. I had my second date with Ron and we made out which was amazing and hadn’t I been set these boundaries from Max I would have loved to go further. But we didn’t. Then Ron got sick. He caught a cold and was pretty ill for two days, recovered quickly from the symptoms but is still exhausted since more than a week now. I told Max all about the sickness.

Now the fuck up:
Ron and I had a date scheduled which was okay for Max, but the evening of the date Ron just … ghosted me. Knowing that Ron is still very exhausted and sleeping a lot (he also has a broken arm at the moment, body doing all kinds of healing), I assumed he must have overslept our appointment. I called the next day to ask what happened and he was very apologetic about it all. Said he decided to take a nap before our date so he’d be fit for it and just slept though until 1am. I believe him, but expressed my discontent about him not immediately texting me when he could have. We still both wanted to see each other since it’s been a bit more than a Week already since our last date and I came over to his place. We had a lovely time, kissed and talked a lot.
The next day I was with Max at my place, and he asked about my postponed date. As I was still talking about the exhaustion Ron was experiencing, Max interrupted with asking if I kissed Ron, to which I simply said well, yes. Then I could watch Maxs face drop - He was SO disappointed. He asked me if I haven’t even thought about him, the possibility of contagious diseases I could give him or that I should have simply asked prior to this date again if it is currently okay for Max that I kiss Ron. I was too stunned to say much. I apologized profusely. I tried to reassure Max that this does not mean I did not consider him or think about him during the date at all. I also carefully laid out the check ins I had done with Ron: that he has been at the doctors the day before who said he probably isn’t contagious with anything as he’s not coughing, sneezing etc. and the Covid and glandular fever tests ran negativ in the lab already (he usually never gets sick why he went to the doctor from the beginning on regularly). This info though did not regulate Maxs disappointment or fear.
Since then I apologized many times and started writing down things to discuss in our poly relationship which also have never been addressed prior. Maxs intention would be to rather not having to have to write down any agreements etc as he says everything is common sense to him. Unfortunately his common sense does not apply to my ideals and also my usual common sense is clearly overridden by the NRE excitement.
I’m super sad as I cannot see Ron until things with Max are resolved and talked through to a broader extent and also because my efforts towards building trust with Max in regards of open relationships are completely in shards now. Why is this so hard? If I’d be at the beginning of the relationship with Max I’d simply get to the conclusion we’re not wanting the same style of poly, but I am too emotionally bonded with him and just want to make him happy.

--- EDIT: After reading the first replies I am seriously questioning this dynamic and have thus renamed the thread and am even more confused than before.

Yikes! Max sounds super insecure and fearful. If you've been reading around the boards for a good while now, I'm sure you've seen the consensus that there shouldn't be that much control of one partner over their partner's other relationships.

It's like you two are just starting to practice polyamory, after him having had other gfs for seven years now. Of course, dating others is the fun part of polyamory. Being okay with your partner(s) dating others is the real test. You have natural compersion, it seems, whereas Max is quite the opposite. He is feeling very insecure, competitive, possessive, etc., you name it. That's come as a shock.

Of course, lots of couples who may go on to successful poly partnerships may be insecure upon starting out, and want to take things in small increments. But you expected more freedom at this point because you've been with Max, and he's been poly-dating, for a pretty long time. He was complacent as the only one dating, and probably enjoying the ease of that.

started writing down things to discuss in our poly relationship which also have never been addressed prior. Max's intention would be to not have to have to write down any agreements, as he says everything is common sense to him. Unfortunately, his common sense does not apply to my ideals...

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I'd say, go ahead and define your needs and preferences, writing them down as you like. Max can dislike the lists. That's on him. But you can't read his mind about what is okay and not okay for you to do! His fears were completely unexpected, it seems.

Him complaining that you kissed Ron and so might carry a cold virus back to him is just silly. Everyone knows colds are more contagious before symptoms show up, and for the first 3 days, and after that usually aren't contagious. That's just Max being jealous and insecure.

There is a book called Polysecure which might help him.

I would never stand for that kind of control coming from my partner, myself. I will go as far as I want sexually on any date, as long as negative STI lab results have been shared, and condoms are used. I reserve the right to fuck on a first date if seems right to me. (I probably wouldn't unless the person and I had been talking online a while and already discussed safer-sex practices.) If you don't want Max to control what you do on a date, just refuse to tell him what you did! That's personal info between you and the new person, IMO, anyway. Just tell Max you felt safe, were safe, and had fun.

I could say more, but I'll leave these thoughts as is for now.

I don't know if this helps you any.

Our first date was amazing and I left with butterflies, we did not get physical as this always needs Maxs „okay“. Max needs to know everything in advance that happens for me in other relationships. He want veto rights and know in advance about date plans, kissing, sex, overnights, everything would need a prior okay and only in little steps.

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Why would you agree to this?

Why can't Max process all this ahead of time? If this is polyamory, you WILL be doing all those things with others.

Why would you agree to primary-secondary if you prefer a different model? Just to keep dating Max?

All this fuss over a kiss just because Max doesn't do his poly "homework" ahead of time?

Why would you want to be this micromanaged?

If I’d be at the beginning of the relationship with Max I’d simply get to the conclusion we’re not wanting the same style of poly, but I am too emotionally bonded with him and just want to make him happy.

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This sounds odd to me. Could you please be willing to clarify?

Are you saying you are codependent on him now?

Are you dealing in coercive control?

This explains it in a way most can understand.


Do you want to live this caged up... just because that makes him happy?

Galagirl

Magdlyn said:

Yikes! Max sounds super insecure and fearful. If you've been reading around the boards for a good while now, I'm sure you've seen the consensus that there shouldn't be that much control of one partner over their partner's other relationships.

It's like you two are just starting to practice polyamory, after him having had other gfs for seven years now. Of course, dating others is the fun part of polyamory. Being okay with your partner(s) dating others is the real test. You have natural compersion, it seems, whereas Max is quite the opposite. He is feeling very insecure, competitive, possessive, etc., you name it. That's come as a shock.

Of course, lots of couples who may go on to successful poly partnerships may be insecure upon starting out, and want to take things in small increments. But you expected more freedom at this point because you've been with Max, and he's been poly-dating, for a pretty long time. He was complacent as the only one dating, and probably enjoying the ease of that.



I'd say, go ahead and define your needs and preferences, writing them down as you like. Max can dislike the lists. That's on him. But you can't read his mind about what is okay and not okay for you to do! His fears were completely unexpected, it seems.

Him complaining that you kissed Ron and so might carry a cold virus back to him is just silly. Everyone knows colds are more contagious before symptoms show up, and for the first 3 days, and after that usually aren't contagious. That's just Max being jealous and insecure.

There is a book called Polysecure which might help him.

I would never stand for that kind of control coming from my partner, myself. I will go as far as I want sexually on any date, as long as negative STI lab results have been shared, and condoms are used. I reserve the right to fuck on a first date if seems right to me. (I probably wouldn't unless the person and I had been talking online a while and already discussed safer-sex practices.) If you don't want Max to control what you do on a date, just refuse to tell him what you did! That's personal info between you and the new person, IMO, anyway. Just tell Max you felt safe, were safe, and had fun.

I could say more, but I'll leave these thoughts as is for now.

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Thank you for going into detail with me and sharing your thoughts over my point of view! As I only have friends who understand poly only in theory, but don’t practice it, it’s tough to get real feedback for me. I constantly feel like an asshole because I seem to underperform in terms of trustworthiness to Max. There have been similar scenarios from five years ago (being intimate with someone he’d vetoed out of jealousy reasons while I was abroad), which he now brings up again to basically say: See, this is why my trust in you is not there!

I have always taken accountability for my actions and mistakes in communication and tried to establish myself as a reliable und trustworthy partner ever since. E.g.: My last sexual interest prior to Ron now lies back three years and after several long months of being hot and heavy for each other but not being allowed to get anywhere further than kissing, my former crush retrieved his interest from me which had left me with resentments towards Max. I don’t want this story to repeat itself but I also don’t want to damage Max‘s and my relationship by pushing him over his own boundaries. He says it’s not compatible to his own relationships he’s had in the past years, as all of those were never as „hot and heavy“ as my style. Basically I’d have to have the same style and level of relationships he has in order for him to feel safe. Is there a term for that in poly language even? Is that „normal“? Any tips on how I could move out of these murky waters are more than welcome <3

GalaGirl said:

I don't know if this helps you any.



Why would you agree to this?
Why can't Max process all this ahead of time? If this is polyamory, you WILL be doing all those things with others.

Why would you agree to primary-secondary if you prefer a different model? Just to keep dating Max?

All this fuss over a kiss just because Max doesn't do his poly "homework" ahead of time?

Why would you want to be this micromanaged?



This sounds odd to me. Could you please be willing to clarify?

Are you saying you are codependent on him now?

Are you dealing in coercive control?

This explains it in a way most can understand.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1805945219344486824

You want to live this caged up... just because that makes him happy?

Galagirl

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Thank you as well for your questions, I will have to keep reflecting on them I guess… I‘ve never heard of coercive control, so the tweet you attached is really helpful for understanding. Tbh I don’t think Max would actively or consciously want to control me… He gets very hurt and shuts me out when my words or actions disappoint him though. He does talk to my metas and his friends about our relationship issues (which is fine for me, I think it’s healthy to ask for outside perspectives or get reassured in one’s own emotions) - but I wonder often how I get represented in those conversations because everyone seems to always be on his side and can’t understand my actions.

For example the recent fuck up:
Max told his friends and lovers that he can’t understand how I can be so egoistic and kiss someone who is so sick, that he overslept our date just the day before! Plus: He can’t believe how „cheap“ I am by rewarding that guy with kissing after getting ghosted like this.
If you’ve read my first post you have my POV already. Over the last days I only realized how deeply it also upsets me that Max calls any behavior of mind „cheap“, it does give it all a ring of slut shaming - I‘m so lost in mixed feelings.

And lastly, what is the difference in emotional codependency and just being deeply in love and therefore wanting the best for this very human being?

"...tried to establish myself as a reliable und trustworthy partner ever since."

You never will with Max, you have described an abusive relationship. He is the problem here, not you.

"And lastly, what is the difference in emotional codependency and just being deeply in love and therefore wanting the best for this very human being?"

The strength of your own boundaries. How you allow yourself to be treated. Are you always kowtowing to his decrees about how to exist in his world? You do x, he gets upset about x, you don't do x anymore. Have you made yourself "smaller", changed again and again to meet his comfort levels. Is there constantly *something* you won't do again because he expressed that it's not how he would have done it? Have you stayed before when he's insulted you (like calling you cheap)? Or is this him escalating his control?

I constantly feel like an asshole because I seem to underperform in terms of trustworthiness to Max.

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So maybe since Max is never satisfied and has odd standards, it's ok to break up, since you didn't want primary-secondary anyway, and this is becoming a drag. Then you'd be free and wouldn't have to feel bad anymore.

And you aren't an asshole. You are being slut-shamed/shamed because Max seems to like "punishing" you. Anyone would feel bad being badgered like that.

Tbh, I don’t think Max would actively or consciously want to control me…

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Intent is not the same as impact. Even if he “doesn’t mean to,” if you find yourself changing your behavior to avoid arguments, criticism, or slut-shaming, that’s still changing yourself for him. That’s impact, whether or not it’s intentional.

And if you bring it up and make him aware his behavior dings you, and he doesn't adjust or change behaviors, won't see a counselor, or worse-- doesn't think there's a problem with how he behaves, and just keeps on doing hurtful behaviors, you could stop looking for "Why does he do that?" and simply get you out of harm's reach.

He gets very hurt and shuts me out when my words or actions disappoint him.

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If you are this "horrible," why doesn't he break up with you then, to be rid of "horrible" you? Don't you ever wonder? Or is that what he wants you for, to be his whipping post to project all his yucky on to?

Nothing you describe is you actually being "horrible." You just sound like want to run your own relationships as you see fit without being so micromanaged.

He does talk to my metas and his friends about our relationship issues (which is fine for me, I think it’s healthy to ask for outside perspectives or get reassured in one’s own emotions) - but I wonder often how I get represented in those conversations, because everyone seems to always be on his side and can’t understand my actions.

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It's good that you wonder, because even in a friendship, this kind of micromanagement is not healthy nor appropriate. You can't have one friend trying to boss the other ones around, telling them what they can and cannot do.

Or is that the unhealthy system in place here? Max is like a "King Bee" type, and all the friends buzz around him? Does he tell everyone what to do, and people hurry to do it, to stay in his good graces?

Kids do that in middle school. They start outgrowing that stuff in HS. Adults who still are doing Queen Bee/King Bee stuff are not healthy.

Max told his friends and lovers that he can’t understand how I can be so egoistic and kiss someone who is so sick, that he overslept our date just the day before!

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As a comforting gesture, because sick? I knew I'd catch my kids' colds and things. I still kissed them when they were sick.

And again, if he is going around telling his friends how "horrible" you are, why not solve it once and for all and break up? He doesn't have to date you. He doesn't have to deal with "egotistical" you any more. Gotta wonder, huh?

He can’t believe how „cheap“ I am by rewarding that guy with kissing after getting ghosted like this.

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Why does Max feel the need to insult you by calling you "cheap?"

Isn't it weird that Max thinks your affectionate gestures "belong" to him in some way, or that they are "rewards?" What are you to him? A real person, or a fancy car? And Max doesn't like it when other people use "his car" without his permission?

He says it’s not compatible to his own relationships he’s had in the past years, as all of those were never as „hot and heavy“ as my style.

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Max expects you to have the exact same dating style as him. That's not realistic or reasonable. Every person is different in how they look, their personality, their culture, how they grew up, etc.

Why would your other relationships have to be "compatible" to his other relationships? All these people don't have to hang out together. There's nothing wrong with parallel poly.

And lastly, what is the difference between emotional codependency and just being deeply in love, and therefore wanting the best for this very human being?

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You are on the slippery slope here, doing a primary-secondary model which you really don't want, bending over backwards to appease a guy who calls you names when he doesn't get his way. What's great about that? "But I love him!" is not a reason to stay in an unhealthy relationship.

You might look at www.coda.org and its resources.

To me, in healthy love--

• You are able to say, "I love you a lot, but not even for you will I do things I do not really want, or stay in things that hurt me. Asking me to hurt myself is asking too much."
• You can show up as your true self.
• You can be honest and direct.
• You are accepted as you are. Nobody is trying to change you or "mold" you.

To me, in codependency--

• You have lost sight of your own self, your own wants. You abandon yourself in service to your partner.
• You aren't actually "happy" that they are happy. You are relieved they are "happy enough" so they aren't raining new doom on you today.
• You think you are "keeping the peace," but really you are keeping silent and slowing shrinking yourself and losing who you even are.
• You're sacrificing your own needs to maintain connection/closeness, or just so they don't blow up in anger again, or get sad/depressed at you again.

You could ask yourself--

• If I make choices that Max doesn’t like, can I still feel secure in the relationship and in myself?
• Or am I afraid or dreading some reaction/retaliation thing from Max later?
• Do I feel responsible for Max's happiness, like I have to be his emotional regulator, because if I don't, here comes a new thing? Is it really me trying to protect myself from new doom, and not actually about his happiness?
• Do I contribute to Max's well-being after attending to my own basics? Or am I putting him first and neglecting myself?

Read the second page:


To me, you are slipping into emotional/mental abuse territory here. This is not ok.

I'm no doctor, but in case it helps you name other behaviors you might be dealing in:


And it doesn't mean you stay in an unhealthy dynamic, either.

Galagirl

Evie said:

Is there constantly *something* you won't do again because he expressed that it's not how he would have done it? Have you stayed before when he's insulted you (like calling you cheap)? Or is this him escalating his control?

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My stomach dropped reading your replies. I changed the title of this thread. I don’t come across an outsiders analysis of him being potentially abusive for the first time, but I keep pushing this opinion out of my head. I think it’s all too minor to be called abusive…but if you ask like this: Yes, he’s insulted me before, like calling me an asshole and other unpleasantries. He usually does not apologize, because he says it should be okay to let anger out and I should know already he doesn’t really mean it like that. He apologizes sometimes when I ask him to, usually a few days later when I can’t get it out of my head. But he’s very eye-rolling about it.
We have been to couples therapy for a dozen sessions or so, and this apologizing topic has come up, too - Max since refers to “even the therapist said some things are not as bad as they seem”.
It’s like instead of him controlling his language towards me better it’s me who needs to do more work on my self esteem so these words don’t affect me that much.

So maybe since Max is never satisfied and has odd standards... it's ok to break up since you didn't want primary -secondary anyway and this is becoming a drag.

Then you are free and don't have to feel bad any more.

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I worry I won't survive this heartbreak though. I am so in love with this person and for the most part our relationship is very nurturing for both of us. I wish to develop healthier boundaries instead. But am I strong enough for this?

Intent is not the same as impact. Even if he “doesn’t mean to,” if you find yourself changing your behavior to avoid arguments, criticism, or slut-shaming, that’s still changing yourself for him. That’s impact, whether or not it’s intentional.

And if you bring it up and make him aware his behavior dings you? And he doesn't adjust or change behaviors? He won't see a counselor or worse... doesn't think there's a problem with how he behaves?

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Well... yes, he doesn't think he needs therapy for anything. He agreed on couples therapy and we both found it very helpful so far. I am in individual therapy, though. Yes, I keep adjusting my behavior, but I can agree to the reasons why! For example: I can be quite unreliable and forgetful (ADHD is a root cause for this) and keep trying to adjust to make quite normal expectations happen. I often fail normal expectations, like being on time ...

He just keeps on doing hurtful behaviors? You stop looking for "why does he do that?" and simply get you out of harm's reach.

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I don't get that line though... What do you mean by hurtful behaviors? I am the one with the hurtful behavior by not caring enough about him.

If you are THIS "horrible" why doesn't he break up with you then to be rid of "horrible" you? Don't you ever wonder? Or is that what he wants you for? To be his whipping post? To project all his yucky on to?

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Lately he more and more adresses this exact fact, that he's wondering if we should break up.

Or is that the unhealthy system in place here? Max is like a "King Bee" type and all the friends buzz around him? He really DOES tell everyone what to do and people hurry to do it to stay in his good graces?

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In many terms he definitely fits the king bee type. We are both activists, but when a collective is not liking his ideas he dismisses them pretty quickly and is disappointed.

Isn't it weird that Max things your affection gestures "belong" to him in some way? Or that they are "rewards?" What are you to him? A real person? Or a fancy car? And Max doesn't like it when other people use "his car" without his permission?

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Fuck, I never saw that connection between him calling me kissing Ron a "reward" with posession issues... Wow. I'll definitely bring that one up and see how he reacts.

Max expects you to have the exact same dating style as him? That's not realistic or reasonable. Every person is different in how they look, their personality, their culture, how they grew up, etc.
Why would you other relationships have to be "compatible" to his other relationships? All these people don't have to hang out together. There's nothing wrong with parallel poly.

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I know all that and agree, but its tough when coming to realize those things have never been talked about! And this after seven years of non-monogamy? I feel like a poly-baby suddenly!

Oofff, thank you so much for all the resources and heavy questions there, galagirl! You are a gem! I'm definitely in some dark-orange areas - danger zone. I would love nothing more than to have a healthy conversation with Max about all these imbalances and issues - but I fear he will call me a narcissist looking for comfortable justifications online (happened before). I can't help but wonder if I'm the ne who is super manipulative and truly narcissistic by managing to turn some strangers in a forum on "my side" in a communication fuck-up I have comited originally.
I'll keep browsing these links you provided, but honestly, I am afraid I am getting too much in my head about it - and want to push it out again

Hello Rosalindsbaby,

It seems to me that you and Max have differing ideas about what constitutes a significant risk of transmitting a cold virus, and Max is upset at you because you didn't share his viewpoint about that. I suppose more communication could have at least revealed, before your third date with Ron, that you and Max weren't on the same page (about the risk of kissing). I still think Max is being a little extreme, and his idea that his perception should be common sense, is a little unfair, and unsustainable. Either the two of you should write things down, or at least communicate more in advance of dates with Ron. I don't think you betrayed Max, but obviously Max thinks you did betray him. To me this whole thing was a miscommunication, and Max ought to be okay about you continuing to date Ron. I know he isn't okay about that.

Such are my initial thoughts,
Kevin T.

Hello,
I don't think you did anything wrong.
I think your agreement about asking every step of the way is not working. Being "primary" is one thing - you can agree to give each other and family duties some priority. But having veto power over every detail is another thing.

I refrain from terms like abuse or coercive control. Unless you want to leave, I don't think seeing one's partner as the villain helps in any way. But sometimes we need to take a stance about what are our rights even if it means disrupting the peace.
If your husband is overly fearful, unfortunately, you may must stand your ground on some things that are uncomfortable to him. That means tolerating your own discomfort about his reaction to certain situations. Unfortunatelly that also means dealing with the backlash from him.
But accommodation must go both ways.

Rosalindsbaby said:

My stomach dropped reading your replies. I changed the title of this thread. I don’t come across an outsiders analysis of him being potentially abusive for the first time, but I keep pushing this opinion out of my head.

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Your body answered your updated thread title for you.

Deep down, you know that even if you consider the abuse to be minor, possibly even tolerable, you're not happy.

Thank you Tinwen and Kevin for your more "sober" opinions. And thanks to everyone who is still reading and commenting. After today I think I'm going to loose both people. I had to reject a meeting with Ron again, this time I explained that the reason is not that I don't want to see him (because I do, all the time!), but that I feel the need to clarify a few things with Max first. I explained Max being lost in the translation from theory to praxis and that I won't continue to allow him to control wether we meet or not and what to do. But that I'll have to talk to him first. Ron basically said that confirms all his worries and that he doesn't want to come in between us and is out. I can be "alone" if this is how it ends, but right now I'm just so angry that I am fucking things up again for myself and not even because I'm enjoying forbidden fruits or anything like it!

Hi Rosalindsbaby,

It seems to me that Max sets you up to fail, e.g., "I shouldn't have to talk about my expectations ahead of time, because my expectations are just common sense," and then when you do "fail," he is quick to guilt-trip you for it, and you are quick to agree with him and blame yourself. I don't know if you have something in your childhood that teaches you to accept the blame, and I can't tell if he is doing this on purpose. It could be that he is just very fearful, and has to be in a position of power over you to mitigate that. I understand that we are only hearing your side of the story. No doubt he has many good attributes, and is perfect for you in every way other than this one little thing. I just think it's not so little.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

One specific thing that is new in the way Max is treating me is the slut-shaming which happened. It's what confuses me the most because it seems so out of character for him. Since days it twists in my stomach but I didn't bring it up the last couple of times we have seen each other as Max was still very shut down from me and hurt. Since the day before yesterday he seemed to accept me and my apologies again, I offered lots of care but didn't dare to bring anything up yet. I didn't want to have another sleepless night tonight and just asked him if I could come over to talk about something that's been bothering me since. Max said he's probably too tired and would rather just cuddle and have relationship talks later this week. I can't cuddle this man with a twisted stomach like this! So I asked if we could maybe just talk on the phone, as I have this one echo from what he said and probably didn't mean, but it won't leave me alone.

So we phoned. I went and carefully laid out how I know we say things in affect which we don't really mean that way and how this also has happened to me in the past - including successfully relegating I ever said such thing. And that he said

He can’t believe how „cheap“ I am by rewarding that guy with kissing after getting ghosted like this.

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Basically he rejected me and everything I tried to say. This is not true, he never said that, how dare I to accuse him of slut-shaming basically. And that this just shows that all my apologies are worth nothing because I still apparently don't understand him and now even want to shift the blame towards him. No matter how often I repeat that I don't want to play blame games and this is not about blaming anyone, but just wanting to be able to talk about things that get said and what they trigger ... Max shuts me out again. "I won't continue this conversation like that." And that's it.

It just hurts so much right now. I keep remembering all these kinds of pain from all over the years - or even just the last few months. And get desperate even more - because yes, Kevin:

I understand that we are only hearing your side of the story. No doubt he has many good attributes, and is perfect for you in every way other than this one little thing. I just think it's not so little.

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He is perfect for me in every other way - but this thing is huge. And I am so, so lost right now. This has turned out to become more major than I could have anticipated.

Rosalindsbaby said:

Basically he rejected me and everything I tried to say. This is not true, he never said that, how dare I to accuse him of slut-shaming basically. And that this just shows that all my apologies are worth nothing because I still apparently don't understand him and now even want to shift the blame towards him. No matter how often I repeat that I don't want to play blame games and this is not about blaming anyone, but just wanting to be able to talk about things that get said and what they trigger ... Max shuts me out again. "I won't continue this conversation like that." And that's it.

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They call this "DARVO". It stands for Deny (This is not true, he never said that, how dare I to accuse him of slut-shaming basically), Attack (this just shows that all my apologies are worth nothing), Reverse Victim and Offender (I still apparently don't understand him and now even want to shift the blame towards him).

He should not be rewarded with cuddles for this.

ref2018 said:

They call this "DARVO". It stands for Deny (This is not true, he never said that, how dare I to accuse him of slut-shaming basically), Attack (this just shows that all my apologies are worth nothing), Reverse Victim and Offender (I still apparently don't understand him and now even want to shift the blame towards him).

He should not be rewarded with cuddles for this.

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I'm learning another new term here, thank you. But I'm instantly worried that this might be also the case for me towards him? I wanted to address the slut-shaming separately from the reason why Max said such things, but it didn't seem possible. Is it generally possible/okay to separate such issues out of a bigger context? Or would that be DARVO from my side => Deny his right to express his emotions how he felt them (call me cheap, or other names), Attack him with an accusation of subconscious slut-shaming, Reverse Victim and Offender because now its about my pain caused by him. Because honestly, that's pretty much how he sees the situation. I constantly wonder if I'm being injust, but at the same time feel desperate for wanting him to see and accept me.

Rosalindsbaby said:

I'm learning another new term here, thank you. But I'm instantly worried that this might be also the case for me towards him? I wanted to address the slut-shaming separately from the reason why Max said such things, but it didn't seem possible. Is it generally possible/okay to separate such issues out of a bigger context? Or would that be DARVO from my side => Deny his right to express his emotions how he felt them (call me cheap, or other names), Attack him with an accusation of subconscious slut-shaming, Reverse Victim and Offender because now its about my pain caused by him. Because honestly, that's pretty much how he sees the situation. I constantly wonder if I'm being injust, but at the same time feel desperate for wanting him to see and accept me.

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Please get away from this man as soon as possible for your own well-being. Be your own best friend and love yourself.

These intense warnings make me feel very confused and sad - are these issues really too big to work on? Would Max ever be able to lower his guards? One of Max‘s other partners, he’s with her since about 3 years, let’s call her Sue, became also a good friend of mine. Right now I wish I could talk to Sue about these patterns with Max and to what degree she agrees with the damage - as she knows Max and me also quite well. This is a very egoistical wish though, as this would certainly be a very uncomfortable situation for Sue and Max. Do some metas talk like this among each other? What would I need to ask prior to make this an ethical option?