A VERY BAD start!

[Magdlyn]

It does seem like a very loosely viewed term that is trendy and thrown around.

Vanilla? Or polyamory? J/k I know you mean poly. I'm not a swinger, but kinky, so I call non-kinky people vanilla.

I met a guy that lived alone and was claiming he was poly. He had 5 girlfriends that he claimed he was having sexual relationships with. Once in a while he would invite all of them over at the same time. On occasion some of them would have sex… but not all of them. Sometimes one of them would be very upset. I was there as an extra to fill in. To me, he was just dating a bunch of women.

Sounds more like polysexuality than polyamory... Unless he truly loved his gfs as people and it wasn't just about the sex.

The primary secondary model works until the secondary wants to be a co primary.

I don't personally believe much in the co primary situation. The main reason is that there will likely be some kind of situation that will expose the fact that it's not REALLY equal. Like who is going to be invited to the company Christmas dinner where it's a very conservative environment, yearly bonus check gets handed out. Not likely to be showing up with two dates and introducing them as co primaries. Just stuff like that.. it does come up, and it does expose issues.

Lots of people here have co-primary situations, however. There are several people blogging (in our blog section) that are doing it well, and long term. The thing is, things don't need to be "equal," only "fair." And some people are working in environments where it's OK to be "out."

My last long term relationship with a man was almost co-primary deal. He lived quite close by to my gf and me (she and I live together). We spent a lot of time together, and also time chatting each day online. He was married, but had time and energy to be very bonded with me. We supported each other through major health issues, he helped me with home maintenance, we took an interest in each other's families, etc. etc.

 

[Dagferi]

The primary secondary model works until the secondary wants to be a co primary.

I don't personally believe much in the co primary situation. The main reason is that there will likely be some kind of situation that will expose the fact that it's not REALLY equal. Like who is going to be invited to the company Christmas dinner where it's a very conservative environment, yearly bonus check gets handed out. Not likely to be showing up with two dates and introducing them as co primaries. Just stuff like that.. it does come up, and it does expose issues.

Co primaries works just fine. I have had two for 4 years now.

Whomever is free is who attends work functions with me. Both men attend kid functions on a regular basis. Kids introduce their dad as such and Murf as Murf. While I don't scream from the rooftops look at me I am poly. I just live my life. I used to worry about being judged.. Guess what most people don't care about my home life nor my sex life. I get more you go girl reactions than anything.

I share two separate homes with my husbands. I travel between the two. I am very vanilla. No group sex or swinging or etc in my life. My life is pretty boring actually.

 

[Bluebird]

I don't personally believe much in the co primary situation. The main reason is that there will likely be some kind of situation that will expose the fact that it's not REALLY equal. Like who is going to be invited to the company Christmas dinner where it's a very conservative environment, yearly bonus check gets handed out. Not likely to be showing up with two dates and introducing them as co primaries. Just stuff like that.. it does come up, and it does expose issues.

There's no hierarchy with my loves. It's all equal - where they want it to be. We are all out, and perfectly ok with being so, with everyone we know. When it comes to work functions - who would WANT to go to the company Christmas party as a 3? Lol Both of my guys are fairly introverted, just getting one of them to agree to go to something can be a chore. If both of them REALLY want to go to something, then they both do. *shrugs* It's not been an issue, anyway.

It was important to me that if I was going to "do poly" that the person I was dating never felt secondary. And once I fell in love and we decided we wanted to be on the relationship escalator, there was no way either of my partners were going to feel less than, if I could help it.

I really think your wife is in the wrong here, Bella. It doesn't matter what happened in the past. As adults, there shouldn't be a "tit for tat" going on, and cheating is a terrible thing. I don't see this situation being poly, I just see it as being hurtful and dishonest. I hope your relationship is able to heal from this breach. Multiple breaches, actually. You are much more forgiving than I am.

That said, I think you do need to see someone to work on communication. If you guys were great at it - your wife still wouldn't be harboring this resentment and throwing it in your face like it excuses what she did. Maybe you are a terrific communicator, but as a couple, it's broken down and you need to work on it together. Or, you need to walk away, because she has way too much baggage right now - this carrying past hurts forward, using her pain as ammunition, cheating with multiple people, being willing to have sex with someone else who is cheating, being willing to lie to her spouse and to someone else's spouse about the infidelity, and then not being able to own her mistakes. It's just a big bowl of not cool.

 

[Phy]

Well, we are vanilla and living co-primary. But I would say we clearly fit the poly-bill, whatever form it may take in whichever situation. Some sorts of poly are not my deal at all and I would call my men monogamous, or poly-friendly at best and still we call our relationship poly. Poly just has so many shapes, it is difficult to brake it down to one concept aside from the consenting and loving multiple relationship setup between adults.

Co-primary is playing at importance and involvement in each others life for us. And here everyone is joining every kind of family Christmas party or dinner regardless of the birth families I believe there are many that give their relationship a label that does not fit; like saying they are co-primary but living a hierarchy of sorts. And yes, this would cause discord.

But on the other hand, you thought of your wife as 'retired' in regard to certain aspects of your former relationship style, a label that did not fit her as well. And as you observed: It does expose issues naming stuff wrongly, because it is bound to disappoint expectations people associate with certain labels and concepts. Exactly the reason why you need to look at your current relationship and the expectations you and your wife are having towards each other.

 

[YouAreHere]

Another co-primary situation here... I'm mono, my partner is not, his other partner is not. He splits his time evenly between two homes (which are actually a fair drive apart), and considers them each his home. There are no legal sticky wickets with "primariness," since he's not married to either of us. We all go to his family functions, and NOBODY goes to his office functions, since he's asked if we could, they said no, and he declined.

That said, you have the steps down re. how to communicate within a conversation, but there's still a bit more than that. Your wife's comment made it clear that there's resentment there, and maybe some one-upmanship going on in the pain department. Why? Is there a long-term plan forward for healing as opposed to this tit-for-tat that's going on? How do you both get there? What does she need to ease the resentment? What do you need to ease the resentment?

Communication isn't just doing the right things within a conversation; it's having the right conversations in the first place.

(Edited to add that while re-reading this, my head turns the, "I'm mono, my partner is not, his other partner is not," into, "My name is Larry. This is my partner Darryl; this is his other partner Darryl." Clearly, I used to watch far too much TV. )

 

[Bella999]

Husband here:

Clearly people are not perfect, and I realized that back in high school when my first girlfriend started fucking another guy just a month after my first sexual experience. It jaded me for sure.

I think the swinging lifestyle always intrigued me, not just for the over the top sex, but also the idea of embracing non monogamy in a more realistic way.
I say realistic because based upon my observations, people don't seem to be very monogamous over a long period of time.

I am also not religious. I find it ironic that this guy my wife fucked is a devout Christian who goes to church every week and sing in the church choir. So with all the Bible reading and weekly advice (for years) from the pulpit, he still can't get the basics of "do not commit adultery".

I hate adultery. When it is non consenting and someone in the marriage doesn't know the other is fucking, it's adultery to me. I don't consider swinging adultery because we ARE adults and it is ALWAYS consenting.

I don't agree that he only needed her approval. He needed mine as well.
She is my wife and whether we are monogamous, swingers or poly, anything outside the boundaries of everyone consenting is WAY OUT OF BOUNDS.

We have been together for nearly 10 years. She has NEVER cheated or done anything outside of our agreements or our own code of ethics.

What really is most disappointing is that I can't say that anymore and I never will. This is a permanent thing I will have to live with now for the rest of our relationship. Looking at her and knowing she has followed our commitments is gone. That has been taken away from me. By her, by him and the other guy as well. Everyone is guilty. The guys know me well and I would have considered them friends until a few days ago. Now I have to look at them in a new way. It's not a better way. It really sucks.

 

[Bella999]

Husband Here:

Yesterday we both sat by the fireplace and talked for about 5 hours.
It was the first time we talked without flareups.

While she has accused me of cheating, I went over our agreements, and there were four of them regarding our sexuality, and it became clear that I had in fact followed protocol. There was no denying it.

We also discussed the swinging lifestyle and she agreed that had we stayed in that lifestyle, this absolutely would not have happened. It is also a fact that she has now returned to the lifestyle, but this time without me. Having a threesome is a great experience, but as swingers, this should have either happened with me or other swingers, not vanillas and not single vanilla people.

It absolutely bothers me that these two guys have shared my wife recently in a threesome and I have not had that experience with her in over 4 years.

She agreed, and we are seriously discussing getting back into the swinging lifestyle.

One of the points was that we only really have three realistic models to follow.

Monogamy,
Swinging,
Polyamory.

We have tried swinging and we did great. No issues, no problems and we were very good at it.

We have tried monogamy and we have failed miserably.

We have tried poly and that failed as well..... and quickly.... twice.

We are not BDSM or any other alternative lifestyle.

Our relationship started out as swingers. We actually met on a swingers site.
It was all up front and she was able to swing without issue. A lot of women can't. Some men can't. I have always looked at her as a rare "needle in a haystack". So I think that our swinging experience will save us... it is helping me with this as well. If this leads us back into the lifestyle I will be quite happy about that. It would certainly help me mentally with seeing how something like this happening could have a silver lining. At least something good could come out of this.... with us staying together. But I would hope that any jumping back into the lifestyle would be an honest move and not used as a distraction away from this situation.

 

[Magdlyn]

I am glad you two had a cool headed talk and have gotten some clarity. That's great! If I may point out, one thing you have wrong, however: you two have not "tried polyamory and failed." As has been clearly stated here, poly is having love relationships with more than one, with the knowledge and consent of all partners involved. Your wife cheated. She went behind your back. It was adultery, as you call it, or cheating. Just because she had one on one sex with a single guy, and group sex with him and a married man, and they are "vanillas"/not swingers, you can't call it (correctly) polyamory.

You and your wife are polysexual. You've done a good job at making having sex with others work previously, following your guidelines of sharing the act in the same space, most of the time. Or if there is one on one sex with another, you've managed to keep feelings of love for others at bay.

Now, your wife has changed. She has feelings for Artist Dude, she wants to move him into your home. She was out of control, thinking with her pussy, fucking two men you considered friends, who you see very often at your local hangout.

And yes, I understand you're very angry at these two guys as well. "Bros before hoes!"

What actions does she need to take to regain your trust? What actions do the other guys need to do to regain your trust, to make it possible for you to go to the cafe, and look them in the eyes? Even the owner's wife, how can you go to the cafe to relax, and be around her, knowing her husband cheated on her with your wife?

Is going back to swinging as a couple enough? Is she still in the tit for tat mode that she cheated on you for not supporting her well enough when her father died? Is she still grieving him? Does she need grief counseling?

All in all, I think something very deep is going on here, that ideally should be discussed with a swinging and poly-friendly counselor.

 

[IndieSolo]

A few things I'd like to point out...

I feel the need to address some of your misconceptions about poly. I know you say that you and your wife were in a poly triad with a bf of hers when you first met, and it ended because he couldn't handle it, but is quite clear that no one in your current scenario ever got to the point of "trying poly." Many times people come here saying that their partner "came out" as poly after having been caught cheating, but it's usually discovered to be just a flimsy, dishonest excuse to keep on doing what they were doing, now that they've been caught. Sound familiar?

Anyway, when others remarked here that the guy didn't need to go to you to ask permission to fuck your wife, you seemed to interpret that as us telling you that polyamory means all he needed to do was ask her. However, that was not exactly what those comments were about, IMHO. First of all, most people were reacting to your wording ("should've approached me first," "fucking my wife behind my back," etc.), because it comes off as if your wife is your property. It was just like you were saying, "He shouldn't have borrowed my car without coming to me to ask for the keys first."

I remember being in a workshop on relationships years ago, where my now-ex-husband kept referring to me as "my wife" while talking about some interaction I'd had with a guy that he did not like (it wasn't cheating or flirting or anything like that, but he was offended by something the guy had said to me). Something like, "How dare he say that to my wife!" It wasn't that he shouldn't ever refer to me as his wife, because I was his wife, but it was the energy with which he expressed those words. Everyone in the workshop pointed out to him how it sounded like I wasn't a person to him, but some object or status symbol that belonged to him. He eventually conceded that he was viewing an offense towards me as an offense against himself, as if he owned me and his property was being devalued by any kind of transgression against me.

Meanwhile, what the guy had said to me didn't faze me one bit and I handled it by ignoring it, and never felt I needed my husband to defend me because I'm a grown woman. I just tell this story to illustrate how a sense of ownership over a spouse can be revealed in many ways.

Anyway, I had the same reaction to your words when I read your initial post, because it sounded like the bigger offense to you was that your property was used by someone else without your permission, rather than agreements between you and wife not being kept by her. I mean, if he had approached you first, you wouldn't have told him to go for it without first finding out if she wanted to -- I would hope -- because she is her own person and her body belongs to her.

My next immediate thought about it was, specifically, "No, it wasn't that guy that should have approached you first, it was your wife who should have." Many, but not all, poly arrangements will have some sort of agreement where partners inform each other of any potential new romantic partners or dalliances. There is no standard or requirement in poly that the potential lover must contact and "ask permission" of a poly person's partner(s), nor even meet them, although many polyfolk may prefer to meet their partners' lovers at least before anything "serious" happens, like sex or falling in love, and most people will approach their partners and say something like, "Things are getting flirty between me and so-and-so, and I'm thinking of taking it farther. Are you okay with that?"

Yes, this guy willingly took part in a dishonest cheating situation by engaging with your wife without your consent -- but consent is not the same thing as permission. If you do an Advanced Search here for threads with the word "consent," you'll find some good threads where we discuss the difference between consent and permission. Furthermore, focusing so much vitriol and blame on that guy kind of overlooks how your partner is an autonomous being who makes her own choices and decisions, and yes, she is the one who betrayed you and cheated. The two of you will never be able to get past this and heal if she continues to write her behavior off as just a mistake and not a serious betrayal of your trust. But you both have work to do - mainly forgiveness and letting go of resentments.

By forgiveness, I mean wiping the slate clean as if the transgression never happened. Yes, she needs to fully take responsibility for what she's done, and be willing to show remorse by earning your trust back with total honesty and trustworthy behavior -- but when you feel ready to forgive her, it will only work as long as you do not keep revisiting her betrayal and resenting her for it. And the same, of course, holds true for the resentments she's been holding over you for years. You both need to leave that shit behind in order to move on. It does sound like you might be heading in that direction and I wish you all the best as you work towards healing your relationship.


I also want to say that that the way you use the word "vanilla" has really rubbed me the wrong way, not just because I've always disliked that term, but because the way you've used it sounds like such a put-down. I know the kink/BDSM community uses the word to label people who are not into kink or BDSM, and many in poly communities use it to label people who are not poly. Oftentimes there is an air of superiority expressed by calling non-kinksters or monogamous folks "vanilla" as if they are boring or unenlightened. However, I've never seen it used as quite such a strong pejorative by anyone as you've used it here. It's almost as if I could see you spitting out the word.

Although this is a polyamory-focused site, non-poly folks are welcome here, whether they are monogamous or swingers. Polyamory and swinging are simply two different non-monogamous approaches that can be applied to relationships. Some people have multiple loving relationships (poly); some are polyamorists who also take part in swinging or casual sex; some come to poly from a swinging background because they realize they can't have sex without love; some try poly and find out swinging works better for them. While many polyfolk do take exception to the couple-centrist aspects of swinging, the general bias against gay and bisexual men in swinging communities, and/or the focus on "no emotions allowed" recreational sex (polyamorists are all about the lo-o-o-ove!), swingers are still welcome to be members here and post, as long as respect is shown for polyamory. Ask questions rather than making assumptions about poly.

Please also be more cognizant of the fact that there are quite a number of monogamous people who are partners in polyamorous arrangements, and many are valued members here. I would point out that there is nothing superior about poly or swinging. Both are equally valid, and so is monogamy. The key is always that, whatever the approach, it works for the people involved.

 

[GalaGirl]

This is day 3 since the bomshell. It seems my feelings and emotions are still changing by the hour. Nothing solid in my head yet. One minute I think "ok, it's over, time to get back to life as usual. The next minute I think we need to take a hard look at what is really going on. My wife want this to pass quickly and for me to brush it under the rug, keep lips tight and have everything just go back to how it was before this happened. I actually think that is doable. But what I am sometimes thinking now is, "what is best for me" rather than "what is best for her".

All the more reason to slow things down, and not make any new agreements while under deep stress. Work on self care first, get stable in your own self first, get your own thoughts organized.

Then DO figure out what is best for you. Figure out if you (want to keep going / this is still healthy for you to participate in) or if (you want to stop / this is not healthy for you to participate in.)

I get that this is hard to work through, but lean into it and work through it. Don't just sweep it under the rug.

Galagirl

 

[FallenAngelina]

......focusing so much vitriol and blame on that guy kind of overlooks how your partner is an autonomous being who makes her own choices and decisions, and yes, she is the one who betrayed you and cheated. The two of you will never be able to get past this and heal if she continues to write her behavior off as just a mistake and not a serious betrayal of your trust. But you both have work to do - mainly forgiveness and letting go of resentments.

Highlighting this aspect of nycindie's excellent post. Your wife cheated on you, Bella. That's what happened and it has nothing to do with your relationship model (poly, swing, mono, whatever.) Every relationship model succeeds or fails on the individuals involved, not because certain "types" are drawn to the "lifestyle." So focus on you two as individuals and focus on your relationship, not on the perceived successes or failures of other kinds of relationships.

That said, you seem to be laser focused on the shortcomings of others, how inept others are at achieving good relationships. You denigrate "vanillas," poly minded people and now even your wife has let you down. Instead of focusing on how people fail you, a more helpful approach might be to ask yourself why you keep drawing disappointment into your life. Relationships ALWAYS reflect what's going on inside of us. The way to change your experience of others is not to ask for "better behavior" but to change the story you keep telling yourself. People show up in ways that we ask them to, so if you're forever finding disappointment, reflect on why you might be focused on pulling this out of people. There are plenty of happy and successful poly, mono, swinging and BDSM relationships out there to be inspired by. You'll find a much more positive experience of people by changing your focus to what you and others are doing right, not by pointing out how this, that and the other gets it wrong again and again. This is all about you and what you're choosing to zero in on. Are you focused on "People always disappoint me" or are you focused on "Things are always working out for me?" The theme of your life today is always your choice and whatever you choose will be reflected in your relationships.

 

[polyciraptor]

I came to poly via starting swinging when I was 19.

Swinging was a lot of fun!

Then I accidentally acquired a girlfriend. Then I accidentally acquired a boyfriend. Then my husband got a girlfriend too

Eventually we decided we were poly, and that swinging wasn't really our thing. But casual sex with people we knew and liked and would socialise with, that WAS our thing. (Although in all honestly we went back to a swinging club last weekend, and we really clicked with a friend, which we weren't expecting at all!)

It might be that Bella-wife wants more attachments than swinging typically allows - maybe the "one and done" approach, as many swingers prefer to do, leaves her feeling like crap. But it sounds like it works very well for Bella-husband.

Moving from swinging to poly is also a little different - suddenly there are dates, where the other person is out with someone new, and you're at home alone. And suddenly you're thinking about how it just feels different when your partner really has emotions involved with her other sexual partners - what makes *your* relationship with him/her special?

I also don't consider swingers to be "not-vanilla". I'm into kink, and I can tell you that vanilla swingers and monogamous kinksters are equally disgusted by each other's existence, and I think the judgement on both sides is ridiculous and pointless.

It sounds like Bella-wife is doing something I tend to do, which is unhelpful. It's not conscious, but basically it's "I feel bad! I don't want to feel bad! I'm a good person! What about this time when you did something that made me feel bad! If I'm not right about being good NOW, I'm still right about you being bad in the past! Now it's your turn to feel bad!"

It is extremely unhelpful.

Don't change the argument.

Bella-wife broke agreements. That's the issue. Whatever her reasons. She could have spoken to Bella-husband about them. What was stopping her? Did she get the feeling he would already say no? Is there already resentment and trust issues? Do the two of you really listen to each other, accept each other's feelings, whether they're based in reality or not?

Bella-husband needs to think about what he wants. He feels betrayed, lied to, and like he has been restricted pointlessly by someone who went behind his back and helped themselves to stuff they are not allowing him.

Bella-couple need to work together if they both want to stay together.

I think moving the artist/cheating partner in with the two of you would be a truly awful idea. He and Bella-wife did nothing wrong, now they get what they want. Bella-husband was lied to (and is being asked to lie), and now he has to live with two liars, one of which he barely even views as a friend anymore?

I've been with my husband for 12 years. I recently ended a relationship which I was in for 8 years. I have some other relationships as well. I have many poly friends. Some relationships went well, some went badly. Same as my monogamous friends, and same as my swinging friends!

Poly works just fine, so long as the people involved tell each other what their feelings are, and agree on boundaries that they can stick to. Compatible communication styles are also pretty important, especially if you don't see each other often. But it can be as simple as one person loathing confrontations and trying to avoid them at all costs, and the other relentlessly pursuing them throughout the house trying to discuss it to death and find a conclusion at any cost.

I've been with my husband for 12 years, and everyone else however long; the only thing I've ever done that was cheating was keeping in email contact with an ex, when my husband wanted me to break ties with him. I hid it because I wanted to do it so badly, it felt natural, and I thought it was a stupid rule. And I thought, oh well, if he doesn't know about it, it won't hurt him.

That wasn't true though. It did hurt him, and it took him a while to trust me afterwards. And hiding it made me feel shitty. And actually talking to the guy made me feel guilty, as despite it not going against the letter of my agreements with my husband, it did go against the spirit of them.

If you think you'll have to keep it a secret because your partner won't like it, it's probably cheating. And you need to either re-negotiate your agreements with your partner, or find partners who do not require you to do things that go against your desires.

 

[Bella999]

Poly works just fine, so long as the people involved tell each other what their feelings are, and agree on boundaries that they can stick to.

Consenting, consenting, CONSENTING!

Regardless of the lifestyle or arrangement, this has to be.

Tonight I was backed into a corner at The Cafe' and confronted directly by both the guy and my wife. I really didn't feel like talking about it all, and it was very uncomfortable for me.

Why and I having to have this conversation? I didn't start this.

Why and I having to forgive someone or everyone here? I don't want to have to forgive anyone, I wish this didn't happen.

I want everyone to know, because that is how I have always rolled once I got involved in the swinging. It was great to be so honest and everything above water. I don't like all the secrets and hiding stuff.

I have been instructed to NOT let the owner know that I know.... that he fucked my wife. I have been instructed to NOT talk about this with the Cafe wife or anyone else.... yet they can get to talk to one another about this..
I have only this internet forum to blog about it. The other guy can't talk to the Cafe owner's wife either.

Too much micro managing going on. Three people now have to keep secrets.
Me, him, and the Cafe husband. All sworn to secrecy so the wife never finds out. This sucks.

 

[InfinitePossibility]

I'm with you on the secret keeping. A while ago my partner spent an evening with an old friend of his. During this evening, he went to a private place with his friend where they were able to kiss and fondle without anybody seeing them. He and I are in a monogamous relationship - but at that time had no agreements as regards kissing others. So the kissing itself wasn't a problem. Although - due to this incident, kissing others is now not okay between us and I don't know when or if that will change again.

What made this a massive problem for me was that the kissing took place behind the back of the friend's partner. And was compounded further by my partner delivering a demand via his friend that I keep it a secret.

I loathe cheating. I tend to avoid being in the company of people who are having affairs and once dropped a FWB totally from my life when we spent a night together and then he told me he had a girlfriend who would be unhappy if she found out. Cheating is, to me, such an unkind way to treat another human being that I simply don't want it in my life.

For a long time I couldn't feel close to my partner. I felt as if he'd become somebody who is incompatible to be in a relationship with me. I found it very difficult to come to terms with his willingness to engage in something so unkind to his friend's partner. His assurances to me that it didn't impact on our relationship and had been "just a bit of fun" convinced me more that he'd changed in a way that I needed to get away from.

I came close to ending our relationship a number of times.

Eventually, though, we were able to speak to each other. Painfully, with lots of tension and upset and often the speaking had to happen via e-mail but we could communicate about it. He was able to let me know that he felt bad about what had happened, that it was ill advised, that he could see why I was upset about it.

After lots of discussions, I decided that I don't consent to keep the secret. I'll talk about it and I'll name the friend whenever and to whomever I like. I wasn't consulted and I didn't consent to this so I feel unbound by the secret. Luckily for my partner's friend, she isn't somebody I am friends with. I've tended to be in her company only a few times a year historically and these are events I'm usually happy to miss. Since this happened, I haven't seen her and we don't have friends in common so it hasn't come up. I think my partner has seen her maybe once.

 

[Phy]

This is a complicated situation and I am not quite sure how I would react to it. It is the main reason why one should not involve close friends and social circles in such bs. For me it would be important to clear the air. It would not sit well with me to be forbidden to feel comfortable in my own social space, so to speak and therefore I would regard the right to clear things up for me as important as their need to keep it a secret, because it is their social circle as well.

But no one could pressure me into lying, to be honest, therefore the course of action would be clear for me, if I could not bring myself to abandon those friends. My personal integrity would be to important for me to go through with this. Sorry for being stuck there, rock and hard place so to speak.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry yestedary was not a good day for you, Bella999.

I have been instructed to NOT let the owner know that I know.... that he fucked my wife. I have been instructed to NOT talk about this with the Cafe wife or anyone else.... yet they can get to talk to one another about this..

When you wife tries to "instruct" you, you could reaffirm your boundaries. Because she's basically cheated on you and moved on to bullying you. You could even affirm your boundaries today even if you didn't last night in the heat of the moment.

You could say

"1)I want you to stop ambushing me. At the cafe or anywhere else.

2) I am not forgiving anyone at this point. I expect you to come clean with everyone and make repairs before I think about forgiveness.

3) I want you to stop trying to involve me in your deception. I do not agree to keeping your secret. Stop pushing my buttons on that. BACK OFF!"

4) If you don't clean up your own mess, I have to leave. I can't stay with you disrespecting me and my personal boundaries.
​

Boundaries are for YOU, not for other people. Your personal boundaries define what you will and will not tolerate around you. When people step on your boundaries? A consequence YOU can do is to walk away.

Normally I try to be calm and diplomatic. But she's being super provoking and she's not hearing you when you talk calm.

You may have to let her see you angry. And just become willing to make a public scene if she tries to ambush you again like last night. Jump up and shout "NO! I said to stop ambushing me!" next time. Knock over your chair and stomp out. All eyes on her. She'll think twice before ambushing you again.

I suspect the cafe ambush with her cheating partner is part of the reason the time/place was chosen. So you would NOT make a scene. So she could pressure you into doing her bidding.

So turn that idea on its head and just make a scene.

As for the rest? Whether over email or phone?

Go tell Cafe wife about the cheating trio. Say that you are sorry to be the bearer of bad news and hope she and her husband sort whatever they need to sort out. She doesn't deserve to be cheated on. She could get her STD screening.

Go tell the Cafe owner you know. And that you expect him to apologize to you and others he's hurt and to stop cheating with people in future.

Go tell Cafe Dude you know. And that you expect him to apologize to you and others he's hurt and to stop cheating with people in future.

Then tell Wife people know, and that you expect her to apolgize to you and others she's hurt and to stop cheating with people in future.​

If she wants you to stay --

Tell her you expect her to make repairs and earn back your trust -- via marriage counseling. That you expect her to ask for your consent first before starting a poly thing in future. That you expect her not to cheat, and not to paint cheating behavior with the "poly brush."​

Consequence for YOU to do if she doesn't straighten up her behaviors --

She doesn't have to do anything. It's up to her. But if she chooses to stay the same? She can expect you to leave. Because you don't want to be with an irresponsible person who makes messes and then doesn't clean them up. You have "I don't hang out with irresponsible people" as a personal boundary for yourself.​

You don't have to stay in the splash zone. Your "staying-ness" is YOUR choice.

I seriously think you are at the place where you have to take some action. It's not fun. There are no easy answers here.

So pick your hard.

I think the "best hard" is you going with what you value most. You say you value honesty and things out in the open the most -- so practice your highest value. Your wife's actions make that hard to practice right now, but practice it anyway. Be honest and get things out in the open.

If you don't? It teaches her that you say you value "honesty and out in the open" most, but really you value "not making a scene" higher than you value the honesty. It's a good bet she will use it again to her advantage in future. She already did in the Cafe Ambush.

If she does not clean this up and you stay? It's teaching her you might fuss at her some, but you still stay in the end. So she can do whatever she wants, she can just ignore your fussing, and she does not have to change her ways. Because you have taught you are ignorable and you don't actually have to be considered because in the end you stay anyway.

Do not teach this.

Rather than going along with secret keeping? Spill the beans and expect your wife to clean up her own mess and get on with repairing all the relationships she has to repair.

I have only this internet forum to blog about it. The other guy can't talk to the Cafe owner's wife either.

I know you don't like the idea of counseling, but having a counselor to talk all this over is a strong reason to go. You could reconsider. Or tell a close friend what's going on with you.

I am truly sorry you deal in this. You do not deserve to be treated so poorly.

But you have been. Now you have to figure out how you want to handle it.

Too much micro managing going on.

Decline her trying to micromanaging you. Say no.

Three people now have to keep secrets.

Decide you do NOT have to participate in unwanted secret keeping. She can try to foist that job on you but you don't have to sign up to do it.

Me, him, and the Cafe husband. All sworn to secrecy so the wife never finds out. This sucks.

Yeah it does suck! So decide to "un-suck it" for just yourself. Spill all the beans. Then that part's over with and it is not weighing you down any more.

Then deal with the next thing on your plate. One thing at a time.

When you've been given a load of crap and it stinks? Start shoveling. One scoop at a time.

Galagirl

 

[WhatHappened]

Poly works just fine, so long as the people involved tell each other what their feelings are, and agree on boundaries that they can stick to.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's that simple. X tells Y how they feel, and Y does....what?

We see this all the time in mono-poly situations, for example. Mono tells Poly, "You sleeping with another woman is really hard for me," and Poly says or does what?

In my case, XBF told me I could tell him anything. When I told him how I felt, he got upset, agitated, even angry. When I hesitated to tell him how I felt because he reacted so badly, he accused me of 'lying' to him by not saying what I really felt immediately (but refused to acknowledge his part in that.)

And the real problem here was: He had no intention of doing anything about the behaviors that were justifiably causing me to feel these ways. He had NO intention of telling his wife to behave herself, or meet me half way. So he yelled and accused instead.

His final conclusion was to never date a 'vanilla' again, although I've certainly done enough reading here to know that no poly woman would put up with the things he--or more importantly, his wife--was doing, either.

As to boundaries, I believe a lot of boundaries, set up to protect relationship 1, are not conducive to relationship 2, and/or not realistic. For instance, 'maintaining emotional boundaries.' It's impossible to simply decide "I won't really fall in love," or "I won't ever want to live with you." When we are engaged in romance, time together, intimate relationships, cuddling, sex....especially for years together with another person, these feelings generally do arise. But the desire of #2 to have these things with the hinge is often impossible due to the relationship with #1.

Again...this is what XBF expected of me. To have a Great Romance, to be and do all the things that gave him that great feeling, and yet not actually ever want anything--as if those great dates were all just happening in a series of individual bubbles and vacuums that had no real impact on anything, on me, on us. These aren't realistic expectations.

the only thing I've ever done that was cheating was keeping in email contact with an ex.... I hid it because I wanted to do it so badly, it felt natural, and I thought it was a stupid rule. And I thought, oh well, if he doesn't know about it, it won't hurt him.

That wasn't true though. It did hurt him, and it took him a while to trust me afterwards. And hiding it made me feel shitty. ....

If you think you'll have to keep it a secret because your partner won't like it, it's probably cheating..

Yes, all true. I think my XH justified his behaviors, his lies, his secret whatever-they-weres with other women the same way. He's now got all the freedom he wants with all those women.

 

[PinkPig]

Bella, I agree with the others. You don't have to agree to keep their secret. I wouldn't want to keep it either. If you don't feel like keeping it, just tell them you don't agree! Do not consent to something you don't want to do! It's as simple as that.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's that simple. X tells Y how they feel, and Y does....what? .................

As to boundaries, I believe a lot of boundaries, set up to protect relationship 1, are not conducive to relationship 2, and/or not realistic. For instance, 'maintaining emotional boundaries.' It's impossible to simply decide "I won't really fall in love," or "I won't ever want to live with you." When we are engaged in romance, time together, intimate relationships, cuddling, sex....especially for years together with another person, these feelings generally do arise. But the desire of #2 to have these things with the hinge is often impossible due to the relationship with #1.

I think it's all a matter of being honest with ourselves and our partners. And, being open to change. That's the key to me: no rigid boundaries around the shape, function, or form that any relationship will take. It's just not realistic because we change and evolve, just as life changes and evolves. But, for others, maybe it is realistic to set rigid boundaries around cohabitation, commingling of finances, etc. To me the key is to choose partners who's goals are compatible with ours. If living with someone else is not something one is willing to consider, then don't date monogamous people who are looking for that. WH, your x-partner didn't do poly very well, imo. That doesn't mean that poly can't be done well, though.

 

[Bella999]

So today after our morning fireside talk, she really wants to try Poly.
She finally is understanding that I would HAVE TO have the door open for
a "secondary" and I am open to trying that, but in reality, it's been a very long time since I have been dating and the world has really changed big time with all the new technology, etc... ( I don't even text!!!!)

I would have no idea where to start looking. If I approached some of the women I already know... well, they are vanilla types and it would be very uncomfortable for me to bring it up in conversation.. and the next day it would be all over town that my wife is having an affair and I am "looking".

So that being said, I think it would be better to find an existing experienced poly sister who already has a primary in place. And then with that being said, we would need to find one another attractive and interesting enough to want to date and get to know one another for God knows how long before we would be falling in love and be on the same page as this relationship that has already gained traction with my wife and her new lover.

She says she will hold off from further sex with him until I find someone that I am compatible with.... and she also needs to approve! ...... even though I had no choice in her relationship.

Where do I start?

The good news is that I am in the SF Bay Area... so there should be lots of open minds around here.. if not.. where?

 

[FallenAngelina]

The good news is that I am in the SF Bay Area... so there should be lots of open minds around here.. if not.. where?

It doesn't matter if you're in a poly playground or not, you two don't sound anywhere near ready to move forward with this. I don't even know where to start, there's so much screwy thinking here. You think of people as chess pieces. "A vanilla type?" "A secondary?" You've got the relationships all planned out and you're looking for some "poly sister" to come and fill the role of acceptable love object. All kinds of ick and ew going on here!!