Advice about red flags in a very specific poly situation

Z

ZippyZappyYeah

New member
Hey all! I hope this is an acceptable use of the forum... my apologies if I'm in the wrong corner, please do delete if so! I'm just looking for some advice from people who get it. I made the classic mistake of asking a monog friend for advice the other day and am now feeling quite judged and confused.

Basically, I'm a bit worried one of my partners has a different attitude to cheating than I do. I am not sure whether to take this as a red flag, or whether my trust is safe with him.

Let's call him Sandwich. Sandwich and I have been seeing each other for about six months now. Both of us have an anchor partner that we live with, and we're both fairly new to polyamory. Given that we're such newbies, it's actually been quite lovely, romantic and relatively drama free so far. But, the other day, on a date, he mentioned that he believes cheating is a normal part of life, and nothing to feel too guilty about. This stressed me right out.

Apparently, he and his primary girlfriend (Yoghurt) got together when he was cheating on an ex-partner with her (Yoghurt). They were pretty young, but I don't feel good about the blase way he said it. My impression was that he believes all's well that ends well, and now he and Yoghurt are in a stable relationship, cheating on his long-term ex was just a bit of youthful messiness. When I was a bit scandalised, he laughed it off. Am I being a prude?

Also, it seems like a lot of Sandwich and Yoghurt's stories in non-monogamy involve someone cheating on someone. The first person they saw together in a nonmonogamous context was cheating on their partner. Right now, Yoghurt is dating someone who is cheating on his wife... who just gave birth to their first child. And the last guy Yoghurt dated was cheating on his partner too. (This is all via secondhand reports from Sandwich. I've not met my metamour yet. It would probably be good to in the near future!)

It's really none of my business what my metamour gets up to, especially since I don't know her. But I find Sandwich and Yoghurt's attitude to cheating a little weird in a poly context. Like, I know it happens sometimes, but surely it's best to try and avoid it? And surely if you're committed to growing healthy poly dynamics, you'd try not to get involved with monogamous drama?

I might be being judgmental about something that doesnt really concern me. But I'm a bit worried that this has implications for how much I can trust Sandwich's word. There have been times when we've had little conflicts, and I had the slight impression he was just telling me what I wanted to hear. If he thinks cheating is kind of inevitable at the end of a relationship, who's to say he isn't going to cheat on me, or otherwise betray my trust?

Valid panic or classic overthinking? Thanks for your perspectives!
 
Valid concern (with a bit of overthinking).

Take it at face value: Your partner has cheated before, and has no problem dating cheaters.
He just does not uphold the same ethical standard you do.

He's not the only person in the world who's kinda accepting of cheating. I've even seen a cheating relationship transition to polyamory. But it's really not reassuring.

You will have to decide whether he's a suitable dating partner for you or not - it's possible he wont cheat on you, because he can just plain tell you; but it's also possible that someday he will.
 
Hello ZippyZappyYeah,

It is hard to get poly advice from a monogamous friend, usually they just assume that polyamory itself is the problem. I think you are making the right move, by coming to Polyamory.com for advice.

Cheating certainly happens a lot, largely because polyamory is a forbidden solution, and most people see cheating as the only way to love multiple people. But just because it's popular, doesn't make it okay. I disagree with sandwich's philosophy, cheating is a big deal, and should only be done under the most extreme circumstances, if at all.

The thing that's concerning about sandwich's attitude is, that if he could lightheartedly cheat on his ex, then he could lightheartedly cheat on you. And this is something that can happen in polyamory. Just because you're poly doesn't make you cheating-proof. Any instance of getting involved with someone new, without the knowledge/consent of (the) existing partner/s, is defined as cheating. You are right to be worried about that.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.
 
It's probably a good idea to make it clear between yourselves what constitutes cheating. Different dyads can have different agreements about what is considered cheating. My husband doesn't have any interest in knowing if I meet someone new and get a crush and try dating them to test compatibility. If it turns out there is compatibility and things get more serious, then he's happy to be told about this new (by then, not so new) person. On the other hand, my partner has always been keen to know right from a first crush stage. He thrives on compersion.

When do you want to know? First flicker of a crush? Before an actual date? Before a first kiss? After the "third" date? When he's caught feels? Because your line for what constitutes cheating may be different from his, or Yoghurt's, line.

Does your line leave room for Sandwich to have a spontaneous date if someone interesting enters his sphere on some random Tuesday afternoon? Or do you want veto power, explicit or implicit, because you have to be told... when you're unreachable, or acknowledge a text... you may not see?

Where does your need-to-know begin? If you and he have wildly differing expectations on that then perhaps you're a red flag for each other.
 
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I, and many, if not most, polyamorous people refuse to date someone who is cheating on another partner or partners. Period. One of the things that defines ethical non-monogamy is openness, honesty and transparency around who all you are dating.

If I were dating someone, X, and I found out their other partner Y was unaware that X was dating me, I would consider myself complicit, or an accessory, in harming Y. I would immediately break up with X until such time as they had told Y they'd been involved with someone else (me), and got Y's joyful consent, or broke up with Y.

Cheaters gonna cheat. I would be afraid X would also cheat on me with Z. And if they'd lie to partners about whom they were involved with romantically and sexually, what else might they lie about, you know? For example, safer sex is highly important, and I don't want some sketchy person to date me, knowing they might not be careful about that.

The bottom line is, it's not polyamory unless everyone in the network is fully informed and happily consenting to this model of dating, this "love style."

That doesn't mean there can't be some privacy and discretion around sharing facts about one person you are dating with another partner. Like, I don't let one partner read texts I get from another partner. Never have, never will. I also don't share great detail about the sex I have with one partner with another. (I might sketch a broad general outline occasionally.) I also do not share personal details about one partner's past with another that the first partner has shared in confidence. That's violating their privacy.
 
Right now, Yoghurt is dating someone who is cheating on his wife... who just gave birth to their first child. And the last guy Yoghurt dated was cheating on his partner too. (This is all via secondhand reports from Sandwich. I've not met my metamour yet. It would probably be good to in the near future!)
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Not your circus, not your monkeys.

I've been Yoghurt. You may not like her, or me, but we're the people who will scratch that itch, and listen to his fears, and calm and soothe them and bolster his ego, and teach him some better communication skills and a recipe or two, and a skill or two in the bedroom, and how to listen and respond calmly when in a tense moment, and then send him home again rather than try and break up the marriage. Yes, as much as it's basically never talked about, "serial cheaters" - who may also be in open relationships - effectively operate as therapists with a bit of sex thrown in. I know that most readers will clutch their pearls at this, but I've repaired numerous relationships by being "the mistress". It's not the serial cheaters you have to watch out for, it's the serial monogamists who are out there to steal your partner out from under you.

We'll just borrow them and apply campground rules: Leave them better than you found them.
 
(and there's the pearls.)
 
Tinwen said:
I'm not judging you, I'm just really surprised :D
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Surprised that therapy often happens between the sheets? Or that I'm a person that gave it between the sheets? ;)
 
Evie said:
Surprised that therapy often happens between the sheets? Or that I'm a person that gave it between the sheets? ;)
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Both and neither. It's just an outlook on life I'm not used to.
I mean, it would not be so surprising if it were a one-time happening, but "repaired numerous relationships" sounds like you were seeking this dynamic out. Which is hard to grasp because for me, it would be such a bad fit.
But I don't want to hijack the thread, so we can as well PM.
 
Hahaha, no-one has time to seek out dynamics like that, they just appear.
 
Evie said:
Hahaha, no-one has time to seek out dynamics like that, they just appear.
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Back when I was actively dating, I had the idea I could offer "sexual healing" (to quote the title of an old song), but I never believed it would be ethical to "heal" or "teach" some married/seriously-monogamously-partnered dude to make him a "better man" to send back to his wife. I think any healing would be temporary, or illusory, or actually harming, not healing, no matter what "good" you think you did, being his mistress for a time.

Mistresses and cheating husbands doing whatever "between the sheets" (fucking or "therapy") might be a thing, whatever the mistress's motivation, but it's not polyamory or ethical non-monogamy. It's cheating, it's lying, it's deception. Ugh.

It's not prudish to feel turned off by a guy who is cheating on his wife to fuck you.
 
I never claimed it was ethical. I was simply offering another perspective that may reflect Yoghurt.
 
Evie said:
I never claimed it was ethical. I was simply offering another perspective that may reflect Yoghurt.
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It's an interesting perspective for sure, and I do like that it helps diversify the actions you can take within a scenario such as meeting up secretly with someone who hasn't been open with their partner. Even if someone believes that cheating is inherently wrong, there's definitely degrees of harm to it based on things like the frequency of it, the cheating people's intentions, and how they treat the partner who doesn't know.

I personally don't like cheating due to the fact that it inherently introduces an unbalanced power dynamic within the more committed relationship. Usually, one person is operating under the idea that their relationship has honesty as a part of the framework, while the other person is knowingly and covertly breaching that framework. The idea of a person going to the point of covertly dating someone starts going into gaslighting territory, which can really fuck someone up psychologically.

The paramour has a lot less ethical labor than the cheating partner does, especially if they're actually encouraging said cheating partner to treat their committed partner well. However, I don't think there's a way to do it cleanly without honesty being involved. Still polyamory, in my opinion. Just closer to covert/unethical polyamory.
 
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