Advice for another poly in a mono marriage

T

turtle786

New member
I have been married monogamously to a wonderful woman for a decade. She has a chronic illness that often puts her in a lot of pain, and we haven't been able to have children. One day, while out for a nice dinner, we started talking about my sexuality and my desire to join a local group for queer people of colour, and my qualms given that I present as straight and have not experienced homophobia. From discussing my childhood experience of intimacy with another boy, we moved to talking about the regret that I felt over repressing that side of my sexuality. In a few days, she told me of her own accord that we could later on look into having an open marriage. While I now realize that she only meant that I could eventually have sex (no romance or emotional attachments) with other men, I was ecstatic and felt that at last she was accepting me as a polyqueer person.

As time went on, she came to realize that I was interested in people other than men as well, and that I didn't feel able to have sexual relationships without a deep emotional connection and vulnerability. We read parts of The Ethical Slut together, and she asked me to tell me what model of polyamory I would be interested in, and she would think about it.

I recognize now that saying, "We could be polyamorous later" does not mean "We're polyamorous now." But, to my shame, I betrayed her trust with a colleague who was visiting town for a few days. This colleague and I shared a great deal with one another very quickly, and she told me about a bad relationship she had had with a mutual acquaintance, which she had never gotten over. The first mistake I made was to take my colleague to a bar and then to dinner with another colleague, without inviting my wife. Then, as my colleague left town, I asked her if she would take my hand for 2 seconds. I held her hand and said, "I know that you can't control whom you love, but please remember to love yourself. You are worth it." Then we hugged and said goodbye. The next mistake I made was maybe a week later on Messenger: I said to my colleague that I had a bit of a crush on her. She did not reciprocate, but my last mistake was that for weeks, we were chatting together on Messenger about both personal and work things.

A week or two after my colleague had left, I told my wife that I was attracted to her. Over the next month, we spoke quite openly, and felt very good at times, including passionate intimacy. But most of the time I was faced with her pain at this news. For fear of hurting her, or because I (wrongly) didn't think it was important, I didn't tell her about the bar, the hand-holding, or that I had told my colleague I had a crush on her. Big mistake. My wife became especially distraught and angry when she saw from our credit card bill that we had been to a bar, when she found out from a mutual friend whom I'd told about the crush talk, and when she went through my diary and found out about the hand-holding. What was especially hurtful was that I didn't cut off communication with my colleague as soon as my wife suggested it; that took another month, and the intervention of a couple's therapist.

In therapy, I accepted that I had been unfaithful. I apologized. My wife took polyamory off the table, and we formalized a number of boundaries. After feeling that I had the chance to be my true self, I was devastated and depressed, but I knew that it was my own fault, eventually I resolved to repress my desires and concentrate on my career.

A year later, in coronavirus lockdown, I have begun to evaluate whether I have changed, and whether I can go on like this. My wife and I have not talked to each other about our feelings in a year, I have felt neither romantic nor sexual desire for her, and we have not been able to have sex. We've been kind to one another, and I appreciate her qualities of creativity, intelligence, courage and forthrightness all the more. I've seen her through a failed IVF procedure, and I've seen her help members of her family in a remarkable way. I love her, but I don't think I can live in this way. I am afraid, and almost sure, that I will desire other people again, that I won't be able to repress it, and that I will either be unfaithful again, or go through the pain of cutting those people off again and again.

A few days ago, after a failed attempt at intimacy, we started talking again about our situation. Nothing has changed: she is monogamous, and I am polyamorous. We both hold resentment: she because I was unfaithful, and me because she read my diary. But we love each other in our own ways, and I can't bear to hurt her. I have never brought up the possibility of separation, though she is always afraid of it, and she has said to me that if I feel I must be polyamorous, then I should divorce her. Of course I rejected that possibility; she was particularly ill at the time. Today she said to me, "I feel like you're holding me at gunpoint. If we separate, I will never be able to have children (she is in her late 30s)." Her point is that she feels that I have the upper hand, because I don't stand to lose anything major. I think that that is true.

I feel trapped. I'm at a total loss to think through the ethics of this situation. My therapist has so far encouraged me to talk to my wife to see whether she is still monogamous. Clearly she is. My therapist has also warned me that I will need to take the possibility of separation seriously. But I have ended a 7-year relationship before (ironically, after I had been cheated on), and it made me feel awful for hurting my partner. Separating might be wonderful for me, but how could I live with myself after hurting my wife so badly?

Any advice?
 
I doubt anyone will agree with me, but I don't see what you did as being unfaithful. I see it as something your wife is holding over you to make you feel guilty.

The argument that you have less to lose is bogus as well. You are already losing way more and it's not a competition anyway.

The whole thing about not being able to have children is just more guilt. Why would people even plan on having a child under these circumstances. And to use that as a reason to stay together?

It's up to you to decide if you can continue in a mono relationship. From what you say that isn't going to change.
 
Hello turtle786,

You seem to be torn between polyamory and hurting your wife. You do not want to leave her, yet leaving seems to be the only way you will ever be able to live a poly life. You are weighed down with guilt over your emotional affair with your colleague, yet you also feel resentment toward your wife because she is holding you back from a fundamental part of yourself. You feel you can't be poly when she is mono, yet mono/poly relationships happen every day, so you know it must be possible. No matter what you choose, you are going to lose something precious. And maybe on some subconscious level, you are trying to delay that inevitability. But for every day that you delay, a piece of you, of your true poly self, slips down the drain. Before you know it, you will have lived a whole life without ever knowing what it is to experience polyamory. That is the price you must pay, for your honor, if you want to stay with your wife.

Unless you can somehow convince her to accept a mono/poly marriage with you, but it doesn't seem like that can be done. Perhaps it can be done if you repeatedly talk to her about your dilemma, and about poly in general, about once every couple of weeks or so. After enough weeks, perhaps after a year, she may start to ease up on her perception of you and poly. But you have to ask yourself, how long are you willing to wait, for her to change her mind? What if in one year she is still of the same position? What if in ten years nothing has changed? Could you wait for fifty years? At that point, you might as well resign yourself to living monogamously (with her) for the rest of your life. I know it must be painful to contemplate that, but if you don't think about it now, it will happen of its own accord, and you won't have any say in your own destiny. Indeed, you are on this site in order to think about it.

I have to second what vinsanity0 said, it does not seem prudent to consider having children when there is such a deep divide in the marriage. If you do decide to have children, you will be committing yourself to stay in the marriage no matter what. And that might double as your decision to remain monogamous ... permanently. The only alternative scenario I can see is, first go ahead and have kids, then tell your wife that you are going to live polyamorously, with or without her permission, and that if she can't stay married with you when you're living like that, then the choice can be hers to divorce you. You will not fight it. But is that fair to your currently unconceived kids? She worries about not being able to have any kids, yet is she willing to bring kids into this world in a marriage with such a deep divide? Her having kids actually seems more feasible if you and she do separate.

I don't envy the position you're in. You have an array of painful alternatives to choose from, and carrying on as you have done for the past year is one of those alternatives. It seems that your wife's chronic illness has become for you the shackles that force you to stay, as leaving would render you unable to live with yourself. But if we're being honest, it seems to me that on some level, you do want to leave. Yes, I even suspect that you ache for the freedom to live as your heart desires, and that every time you fall in love with someone and have to reject them, a piece of you will perish. You even mentioned that you no longer have romantic or sexual desire for your wife. This poly issue is killing your feelings for her. How will she feel in ten years if things go on unchanged? Will she really be happy? Is it possible that divorcing her is the most loving thing you can do -- for both you and her?

These are some things you may want to think about.
Sympathetically,
Kevin T.
 
I'm with vinsanity--I don't think what you did (the "affair") was that awful. It actually seems pretty common that a similar scenario happens in a relationship where one spouse wants to be poly, and the other one says "maybe, it's on the table, but not quite yet." So the poly spouse thinks, "Okay, I have the freedom to have crushes now, as long as I don't act on them."

Then there is this gray area where what does it mean to "not act" on a crush. You might have been thinking, it's okay as long as there's no kissing/sexual stuff. Maybe flirting is okay. Maybe talking and going out to dinner and holding hands. But then maybe it moves a little faster than you were expecting. And you know your spouse isn't totally ready so you don't know how to bring it up. And then you find yourself hiding things, not saying what happened with the colleague. And then it's an emotional affair.

I don't mean that it's not wrong to have an emotional affair. I just mean that it should be forgivable and understandable. After all, you'd been honest about wanting to be polyamorous, and your wife said it might be possible.

I agree with vinsanity that she's holding it over your head now. She clearly doesn't want to be poly and wouldn't be happy in a poly relationship. But I think you'll be miserable if you stay with her.

I'm not sure how she thinks she'll have children if you DO stay with her? I thought she couldn't have children? I imagine she must be grieving pretty hard about that. It is probably true that, if you separate, she doesn't have time to meet someone new, get remarried, and try IVF again before her fertile years are gone. And that is terribly sad.

But I'm not sure how staying with her would magically give her a child, either.
 
I'm sure the OP could clarify this. I wonder whether the IVF situation would be affected if there was a separation. I know that some places don't support IVF for single people the way they do for partnered people.
 
Honestly I do not think you will ever get a "joyous" yes from ypur wife.

So your choices are stay in your marriage or split and you pursue polyamory.

It would not be fair to bring children into an unhappy marriage. And if you think she will treat you any better when she has a child guess again.

Sometimes love is not enough.
 
I hear that you're trying very hard to be a good person. You're trying to put your wife's needs ahead of your own. You've gone to counseling with her.

I don't think it's a huge deal to get a crush on another person, and to have gone out once! And taking their hand for a few seconds is just a natural form of human contact.

Monogamy assumes the spouses own each other, and are strictly fidelitous all their lives. Of course, this rarely works out for multiple decades. We all get crushes. And people who say they don't are lying.

My ex husband knew I was prone to crushes and told me he'd never had one! After decades of lying he finally confessed in couples counseling that he'd fantasized about every attractive woman he'd ever met, imagined taking them home, undressing them and having sex. He'd lied to me to "set a good example." Instead, it destroyed us. It caused a huge breach, a black/white, good/evil split. I was the evil one. Supposedly. I tried my best to hide my crushes, to spare his fragile male ego, and to avoid his passive aggressive punishments. At least I was more honest than him!

Monogamy is a social construct, not a natural state for human beings. Many people put marriage before personal integrity, happiness, actualization. Of course, divorce is extremely common. Your wife is still young. She has plenty of time to meet someone who is more suited for her and shares her values. i split from my h at age 52 and even I had tons of partners to choose from over the past 12 years.

I know it's harder because your wife has an illness. Can she work? Take care of herself and her living space? Does she have other social support?

Maybe your marriage has run its course. You've grown apart and want different things, as my husband and I did. You also do not owe her a child! No one owes anyone that. (Unless you're a British royal. I supposed you owe the Commonwealth an heir and a spare.:cool: )
 
Thanks so much to everyone who has responded so far. I feel that you folks have so much collective wisdom from your experiences. Special thanks to kdt26417, whose post made me want to cry. I very often think the very things that Kevin has mentioned. We only have so much time in this life, and I cannot live a lie. There is so much of myself that is being lost with every love that I cut off. Yes, I know that if I were to separate, I would ultimately be fine, and probably feel much more free—except that I would carry tremendous guilt, and I do know about myself that my guilt can be crushing. But what if separation is the most loving thing I can do?

My wife is not totally infertile as far as we know. Her disease affects the uterus making conception difficult, and also making it very difficult to have penetrative sex, which we have had only about a dozen times in the past decade of our relationship. We have done a few rounds of IUI and two IVF rounds so far. She is now talking about a third IVF round, surrogacy, or adoption. Obviously she is desperate to have children, and it makes me very sad. I once felt the same way, and if a child were to come, it would make me so happy. But I've come to believe that it's more important to love people, whether they're our babies or elderly community members, or lovers. You are all correct that a baby is not going to fix our relationship. It seems almost like torture to tell her that we can't try to conceive right now, but I guess I'll have to. I've promised to give it one more go the next time she ovulates, and I don't think I can take that back. After that, definitely.

I don't think that she's selfish at all. She has helped me through periods of depression and a difficult legal case, has understood when I've had a hard time dealing with my love for someone else because I didn't act on it, and suggested the possibility of opening up the marriage in the first place, even if she took it away after my infidelity. She looked through my diary, but she has apologized very sincerely, and promised never to do it again. She can't really help being monogamous, and a monogamous outlook can't be "cured," I believe. I do think, though, that her disease has an enormous effect on her mental health, and that she feels inadequate as a woman whose fertility is compromised, and who cannot have penetrative sex without a lot of pain. She feels as if another person, especially another woman, would be a substitute for her, although I really don't want to have children with another partner, and I've tried to explain that for me, you add love on top of love; you don't substitute one for another.

I had to think a lot about whether what I did was infidelity. She had accused me before of having an emotional affair with another woman, because I was spending so much time with her, messaging so often, etc. But there, nothing happened; certainly not physically, and no one even said "I love you," in part because I thought it would be unethical. The problem with my colleague was mainly that I told her I was attracted to her. For a monogamous person, that is a betrayal, and I accept that I was wrong. At least I should have told my wife about my attraction before I told my colleague. I have not had the chance to mention that when she found out that I had told my colleague, I tried to explain it away to my wife. And when she asked me whether we had had any physical touch, I did not mention the hand-holding. I lied and I gaslighted her for a month. Then she read my journal, and we went into couple's therapy.

Most of you are saying that I need to separate. That is easy to say, but very, very hard to do. I have not even put it on the table myself. When she brings it up (expressing it as a fear she has, not as something she wants herself), I always say, no, I don't want to divorce, I want you and I want to be myself. I do think about living separately once in a while, and the idea does give me some peace, a sense of freedom, joy. But such a drastically different future is also really really frightening, and aside from hurting her, I would have to face the disapprobation of my family and our friends. When Kevin writes this

Perhaps it can be done if you repeatedly talk to her about your dilemma, and about poly in general, about once every couple of weeks or so. After enough weeks, perhaps after a year, she may start to ease up on her perception of you and poly.
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I immediately feel like clinging to this strategy and to believe that a mono/poly relationship is possible. Maybe it is a way of avoiding the inevitable, and probably even if she "accepts" my polyamory, it will just be on the surface, and she will resent me for forcing her. But maybe if I try to be non-coercive, not withhold things unreasonably (I don't have sexual desire and we should not be thinking about kids right now, but I can touch her, care for her, and support her), and not even put separation on the table, she will, after another year of just talking, appreciate that I'm trying my very best not to hurt her, and let me love the way I want.

I’ve read The Ethical Slut (first thing that I saw) and I’m currently reading More Than Two. But both of these books are mainly for practicing polyamorists. Is there something substantial about mono/poly couples; how they open up, and how they operate? I’m a big reader.

Magdlyn, just saw your post. Thanks for your kind words. My wife has the support of her friends, and I guess she would be able to move cities to be closer to her family if we were to separate. Yes, she is highly skilled and intelligent, and can work, although she's currently between jobs and the post-coronavirus market is scary. She has endometriosis. She isn't incapacitated; it's just that she is in pain at times, and may need surgery every 5 years. She is beautiful and smart, but I have an awful fear that she will not be able to find someone else who is up to her standards.
 
turtle786 said:
I immediately feel like clinging to this strategy and to believe that a mono/poly relationship is possible.
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I'm emotionally monogamous and will say that a mono-poly relationship is possible, but that is a crappy strategy. You can't repeat yourself enough to change someone into wanting poly. You can't educate someone into wanting what she does not want. A good mono-poly relationship comes from both partners wanting it. A crappy, make-do mono-poly relationship, such as the one you're in, comes from partners wanting very different things and putting up with compromise because they fear losing the relationship more than they value the happiness of the participants. This is old school monogamy (not even that "old," it's upheld everywhere as some sort of silly relationship gold standard, as is evidenced by the applause a couple receives when they announce how long they've managed to hold it together.) Mono-poly as a make-do compromise is crap. Regularly trying to convince someone to go along with it is even crappier.

Whatever you do, please don't bring a child into this. Like Dagferi said, if you think things are tough now, you ain't seen nuthin yet if a child comes along. Children shake up even the best of relationships. Staying with someone because she really, really wants a baby and is fearful that she wouldn't find another father is really, really, really bad reason to make a baby.


"I have an awful fear that she will not be able to find someone else who is up to her standards."
"...a drastically different future is also really really frightening"
"...she feels inadequate as a woman whose fertility is compromised, and who cannot have penetrative sex without a lot of pain."
"...how could I live with myself after hurting my wife so badly?"

These words from you are very bad reasons to stay with someone. What kind of life do you have with someone when there is so very much guilt and resentment going on? I've been on every side of this and can say with confidence that if the guilt of being honest with your spouse is so great that you fear you'd not be able to live with yourself, then you are definitely in a relationship that is wrong for you. The good news is that these are simply fears, they are not facts. Fears feel powerful, but they can be changed. Don't let fear run your life, no matter your circumstances. Right now, fear is in the driver's seat. That is not a road to happiness. Honesty might be difficult, but honesty is what will take you to where you both want to go. I guaranteee you that your wife is not happy. You are not sparing her hurt by trying to shield her from the truth of yourself (which is usually why people have affairs instead of being honest.) Trying to spare a spouse the pain of honesty only leads to the erosion of intimacy. You can see that from your own experience. Following the lead of fears, shielding from the truth - this leads to misery. Only honesty ever takes us where we want to go.
 
I wouldn't consider a strategy of wearing down a partner to be ethical. Best case scenario is they finally give in just to shut you up. You get what you want, but at the cost of your partner's happiness. You may be able to fool yourself into thinking everything is fine, but that won't last for long.

A more likely scenario is that your constant bringing up of this subject will just be a reminder of how inadequate she thinks you think she is. Again, no happiness on her part.
 
FallenAngelina said:
"I have an awful fear that she will not be able to find someone else who is up to her standards."
"...a drastically different future is also really really frightening"
"...she feels inadequate as a woman whose fertility is compromised, and who cannot have penetrative sex without a lot of pain."
"...how could I live with myself after hurting my wife so badly?"
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I also feel like these statements indicate that polyamory probably won't work for you as a couple even if you'd eventually wear her down and talk her into a mono-poly-approach. One of the things I learned quite fast is that poly is most doable for people with a healthy amount of self-confidence, little insecurity about their body or sexual performance, good communication skills and little fear of abandonment.
Essentially being in a poly relationship as a mono partner often boils down to truely believing your partner when they say they love you no less and will not leave you. And that means that you have to believe yourself that you are just as good of a pick as someone else and worth of love and commitment.

I mean no disrespect but with your history of (perceived) betrayls, your wifes issues with her illness, self-esteem and fear of abandonment and your bad communication (intentionally keeping information for your wife, gaslighting) I don't think your relationship would survive poly anyhow.
You also speak about your wife quite patronizing. You say she is beautiful and smart, she has a supportive group of friends and family and she seems to know quite clearly what she wants (a monogamous sweety and children). Why do you presume her happiness depends on you/your marriage? You two seem disfunctional and unhappy; and women have children late and without a man in their live nowadays quite commonly.

Are you sure you aren't just using poly as a way to "soft-transition" out of a relationship you don't wanna be in anymore out of a false sense of martyrdom?
 
Have you ever heard of the concept of carrying your own baggage? Of being responsible for your own feelings and acts?

You are white knighting your wife. OK, she has endometriosis. She's not in a wheelchair, she's not unable to get up, walk around, groom herself, make food, do chores, drive, shop, go to work, and all that. I thought when you said chronic illness, you meant she was incapacitated, or extremely mentally ill and not managed.

It's not your job to "make" your wife happy. No one can make another person feel anything. She already knows you aren't mono. (Kevin always means well, but hardly anyone who is on this board as a regular agrees with his well meaning advice. And I don't think he ever reads and learns from anyone else.)

Again, you don't owe her a baby. You also weren't put on this earth to shield her from her own emotional management. I'm in a very tight and loving relationship, but we aren't "entangled" in this way. We have more respect for each other's strength.

She has high standards? Good luck to her. You're not up to her standard! You're not mono. Ha! So she just wants to use you as a sperm donor?

Anderson Cooper just became a dad. He's single. It can be done. If that is her priority, she can move heaven and earth to get herself a kid. It's not your responsibility. That's kinda gross, actually, to be seen as a sperm donor.

I mean, if you really want to donate sperm, you can do that without being married to her. As others have said, this is an unhealthy atmosphere to be bringing a child into anyway.
 
FallenAngelina's discussion of fear is spot on here.

I thought Kevin had many great and sensitive things to say. One thing I'd disagree on is the frequent chats he suggested. "Every couple of weeks or so" would be pointless and pretty erosive in this situation, I think.

You said of your wife:
she has said to me that if I feel I must be polyamorous, then I should divorce her
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Is it enough for you to be aware of your poly nature and desires, but not act on them? It doesn't seem so, based on your posts. This is a horrible choice but it is a choice and you have only one life to live.

I'd say take that comment of your wife's to heart. (I need nicknames here. I'm going to go with Starfish for your wife. Turtle - feel free to pick something else if you'd prefer.)

Starfish was previously open to considering poly. Now she's not. At all. Forever. Is that her position?

Ok - then what's yours? Can you flourish in that configuration? Or is it a crippling compromise you will grow to regret and resent? You fear the answer to this.

It's telling that you both still hold resentment over the incidents (your evasion/lies and her reading your diary). There's a phrase "build a bridge and get over it". I think we sometimes get stuck on things when we can't figure a way forward (separately or together). So we stand there pointing, saying "that hurt me" and "that hurt me", and the block sits on the road. Then we go away and come back at a later time, and the block is still there. Rinse repeat.

I'm sorry there is no risk-free choice for you, and there will be some pain/loss whatever you choose.

From what you've said, it doesn't sound like separation would prevent Starfish from having her own children, should she choose to. I hope the best for her in that aspect, but her dreams need not be yours. If she did conceive in her next cycle, what would that mean for you? Separation is not even the possibility of a possibility? People raise kids as a single parent all the time. I agree with Mags - you sound like a very considerate partner who made (to me) a forgivable mistake. If Starfish wants kids, but you don't anymore, there's nothing stopping her (as far as I can tell?) pursuing this with a sperm donor or through another way. Unless there are huge barriers for a single person accessing alternatives like adoption where you live, I can't see how Starfish's goals to have kids necessarily require you to stay in this relationship too, if you otherwise want out.

In fact, if she's concerned about parenting alone, it would be much kinder for you to make a break sooner than later, so she can have more opportunities to find a partner who would want to co-parent with her. There are also some single parents who band together to help raise kids together. A separation would give Starfish clarity as to what she'd need to be responsible for, if she still chose to try for kids.

You want to be able to stay with her, but you're not sure whether you can, without shrinking yourself.

I hope you can make a decision soon, one way or the other. If you decide to stay, it should be clear-eyed that this will now be a closed relationship. Maybe you can negotiate something like being able to express your poly thoughts / dreams within the context of a commitment to monogamy. But it shouldn't be with any pressure or expectations that poly will be on the table for Starfish. She's made that very clear to you.

If you can't bring yourself to choose monogamy in practice, then you need to separate. The sooner the better.

At the moment, you're not actively choosing. You're feeling the stuck-ness, it's overwhelming you. But "doing nothing" is a decision too, it just feels worse because it doesn't have a positive intention behind it.

I'm glad you have a therapist who seems to be giving you good guidance, here. Best wishes for where to go from here and I wish Starfish the best with her health and fertility journeys
 
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Oh, I somehow missed the whole page 2 of replies before posting. Whoops. Mine slots in between pages 1 & 2 :p Apologies to those whose comments I skipped over
 
Kevin always means well, but hardly anyone who is on this board as a regular agrees with his well meaning advice. And I don't think he ever reads and learns from anyone else.
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I don't want to derail this thread (and we can split this conversation off if need be) but I just wanted to respond to this. I'm not a consistently regular poster but I've been kicking about this forum for a while. I have always appreciated Kevin's kindness and thoughtful replies. I don't always 100% agree with his prescriptions and sometimes I 100% disagree! But I feel this forum is richer for his perspective (not just his well-meaning-ness). He sometimes contributes something I would have never thought to say, which upon reading, makes me think "oh, good comment, Kevin, I wish I'd been struck to say that myself." Which is my self-involved way of identifying that I value his opinions ;) In fact, I thought some of his comments on this thread were very good in this way.

As to whether he (or any of us) learns from other people's comments... Eh. I mean, probably we all do, right? I mean, we must, subtly, somehow, over time. But we're almost all fairly damn opinionated here - mostly in a good way! I like the variety and I'm more interested in someone's ability to have a relevant point of view which they can express respectfully and coherently, rather than whether they agree with me or even most other people.

So anyway, to respond to Mags' quote above, you can count me as a regular who doesn't hold that view. (I note Mags said "hardly anyone" so maybe I'm the exception that proves the rule? I'd be surprised, though.
 
You are alive. You aren't dead. It's ok to notice beauty in the world and feel attraction to others. Some drinks and hand holding a hug goodbye is not a big deal to me. That's friend stuff.

I've told my friends I think they are cute/attractive.

I think both you and wife are making a bigger deal than it actually is about the colleague.

I also don't think this is about your wife being monogamous and you poly. I mean, there IS that incompatibility too.

I could be wrong, but the BIGGER problems here seems to be that neither of you feels that safe with the other one. You don't talk, really talk, about your feelings for a YEAR with each other? Sounds like you don't trust each other much. And don't feel safe here. So what is this then? Just going through the motions of marriage and just phoning it in?

Why stay here romantically tied? :confused: Habit?

My wife has the support of her friends, and I guess she would be able to move cities to be closer to her family if we were to separate. Yes, she is highly skilled and intelligent, and can work, although she's currently between jobs and the post-coronavirus market is scary.
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Well, she seems to be able to move on if you were to separate and have support.

She has endometriosis. She isn't incapacitated; it's just that she is in pain at times, and may need surgery every 5 years.
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That's a bummer about the endo. Yet people DO have things and deal with their patient stuff. So neither here nor there.

She is beautiful and smart, but I have an awful fear that she will not be able to find someone else who is up to her standards.
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Isn't that kinda HER thing to deal with? Along with whether or not she wants to adjust her standards? Cuz right now, you don't meet her standards for mono and you both aren't happy with each other. If she moves on to date new people, it's her concern then if she's successful finding people to date or not that meet her standards.

Not any concern of yours.

Right now it sounds like a peaceful dead relationship. You aren't at it hammer and tongs fighting all the time. Which I guess is better than going at it hammer and tongs. But... still kinda dead, no? Where's the pleasure in that? :confused:

I’ve read The Ethical Slut (first thing that I saw) and I’m currently reading More Than Two. But both of these books are mainly for practicing polyamorists. Is there something substantial about mono/poly couples; how they open up, and how they operate? I’m a big reader.
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Maybe Opening Up.

https://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

And some of the articles at practical polyamory.

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/downloadabledocuments.html

Obviously she is desperate to have children, and it makes me very sad. I once felt the same way, and if a child were to come, it would make me so happy. But I've come to believe that it's more important to love people, whether they're our babies or elderly community members, or lovers.
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And do you include loving yourself? Not like selfish, but like self care. Do you think it is loving behavior to keep you here like this? Or loving behavior to make babies when you don't feel that way any more?

You are all correct that a baby is not going to fix our relationship. It seems almost like torture to tell her that we can't try to conceive right now, but I guess I'll have to. I've promised to give it one more go the next time she ovulates, and I don't think I can take that back. After that, definitely.
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YES YOU CAN TAKE THAT BACK.

Your consent belongs to YOU. You can change your mind and say no about sex. You can change your mind about TTC.

https://www.boredpanda.com/consent-...oogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

You can say yes, and be completely naked and then say "Wait, changed my mind" and that's valid. You do not "owe" people sex or sperm for TTC.

Yes, I know that if I were to separate, I would ultimately be fine, and probably feel much more free—except that I would carry tremendous guilt, and I do know about myself that my guilt can be crushing. But what if separation is the most loving thing I can do?
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Guilt for WHAT? That things didn't pan out here after all? That happens sometimes in dating and in marriage. The thing goes as long as it goes. And then when it stops working? Could just stop. Rather than keep on trying to make a kite fly that just doesn't fly any more. That is not either partner's fault if they have grown apart or changed in values or what they want from life. It happens.

Respectful separation sometimes IS the last loving act one can do.

I get that none of this is easy. But if you are unhappy and there isn't a rose smelling choice anywhere and ALL the choices stink?

Pick your hard then. And pick the one with the least amount if stink.

To me it sounds like the least stinky choice is to start practicing super honesty and tell her you don't want to be making babies right now. And that you want to think about separating because it's been this long to no avail.


My wife and I have not talked to each other about our feelings in a year, I have felt neither romantic nor sexual desire for her, and we have not been able to have sex.
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Sounds like dead marriage then. Like why bother trying to convince her to go poly? Rather than just wrap up old business, clear the dead marriage, and then go poly on your own after you heal? :confused:

We've been kind to one another, and I appreciate her qualities of creativity, intelligence, courage and forthrightness all the more. I've seen her through a failed IVF procedure, and I've seen her help members of her family in a remarkable way.
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So you are pals now rather than spouses. Is that about it?

I love her, but I don't think I can live in this way. I am afraid, and almost sure, that I will desire other people again, that I won't be able to repress it, and that I will either be unfaithful again, or go through the pain of cutting those people off again and again.
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And for you the marriage is over and you are struggling with the grief of knowing it is. But not yet at final acceptance.

Is that it? I can only imagine how hard this is for you. :(

Even though hard... I still think you could get off the fence and start deciding SOME things. Maybe live apart for 6 mos to a year. After that make the call whether to try to be together better because the separation taught you that you missed each other SO much and resparked interest. Or divorce because the separation taught you that yeah... Not so much any more and didn't miss each other at all.

Otherwise make the call to split now. Because you love and like her a whole lot, but you don't sound like you are IN love with her any more and you are not meant to be the father of her baby (bio, adopted, or otherwise). So best to say it out loud now and own it. Rather than drag this on and one and on making misery for all.

Life isn't a dress rehearsal. You only get the one. So don't just linger here in this lackadaisical "meh." That robs BOTH of you from a new future doing something else that might be more fulfilling than this.

Galagirl
 
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YES YOU CAN TAKE THAT BACK.

Your consent belongs to YOU. You can change your mind and say no about sex. You can change your mind about TTC.

https://www.boredpanda.com/consent-r...mpaign=organic

You can say yes, and be completely naked and then say "Wait, changed my mind" and that's valid. You do not "owe" people sex or sperm for TTC.
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Omg GalaGirl, THANKS for saying this. It was my reaction to this comment too but I forgot to address it with my reply. Absolutely absolutely this.
 
I'm sorry for what I said about Kevin in this particular thread. Some of his advice was fine. Not that part about hammering away at this woman to try and win her over. That sounds terrible.

There's nothing to feel guilty about. Sure, you've been through a lot. I have some friends, family and lovers with whom I've been through a lot, but life changes happened and we no longer see each other. That's life!

And as Rupaul says, "If you don't love yourself, how in the hell are you gonna love somebody else? Can I get a Amen up in here?"

Again, not to harp on Anderson Cooper, but he started planning to adopt a child with his former partner. However, they broke up before the surrogate mother conceived and her pregnancy came to term. He said his former partner and he still consider themselves family. They seem to be on great terms. They just aren't partners anymore. But his ex will co-parent this child they planned for.

So, that's another way to go, if your (ex) wife conceives with this final IVF. You don't have to live with her as her husband though. If your lovestyles no longer match, move on. I'm sure both of you will find more compatible partners when the time is right.

For now, just think of the freedom to be yourself that singlehood will bring you! No one watching over you suspiciously, spying on you to make sure you are acting "correctly," as a proper "good" mono husband. BTDT. It was such a relief to be out from under that scrutiny and suspicion, living my best life and socializing with other poly friends and lovers who accepted me, got me, and celebrated me in all my unique authentic glory!
 
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