Advice on Poly rules

This is a semantic discussion about how the word cheating is defined.

Yup. People who are dating potential need to talk to "calibrate" word usage to avoid misunderstandings. It's part of the "getting to know you."

It's a common problem of mine as I don't understand tone, attitude, facial expressions, and the like. It's all about the words for me, but most people ignore the words and that's frustrating.

That is something to mention to new potentials.

I mean me and the wife have had all those talks, but new people... ya there's a mountain of discussion I would like to have that 99% of the population has zero interest in discussing. haha

And that right there can help you weed out people who aren't going to be compatible. Dating is work, but that's the point of dating right? To find the compatible people?

Galagirl
 
So say you have a long-term partner. Or a live-in partner. They've put years and years of emotional work into your relationship. Then you get a new partner. Is the new partner automatically given the same time, attention, and consideration as the long term partner? At what point, if any, will the established partner be expected to give up time, sex and energy from you because you'll now need to allocate that elsewhere?

Let me start by restating that this is my goal, and if anyone else finds something that works for them, and everyone is happy more power to them. That said mostly. So time, energy, and attention yes, and from go. Consideration no, but that's not about equality in my opinion that's about how dependable the relationship is. However, this is true of anyone new you meet. As an example, if I've had John as a friend for 10 years and I just met my new friend Paul I'm going to give John more consideration. This means I'm going to react differently if John pushes me when he's mad than if Paul does it because I know John much better and he has a history of not doing that. I'm going to be more open to John's justifications for "bad" behavior than Paul because of the history of the relationship. Now, this is just how I operate, and I'm not saying it's the right or wrong way to live, it's just what I feel is "right". To me, a partner is an equal, so their vote counts the same, they deserve the same amount of time, energy, and attention. Well to be fair if there was a hangup in my long-term partner I was aware of that I felt required more attention I would give it, BUT I still feel like this is an extension of consideration, not additional attention specifically because of the length of the relationship. Maybe you see that as splitting hairs, but that's the way I feel, and again if everyone consents and they're happy with it do whatever rocks your boat, this is all just a framework to start a discussion with for me.
 
I think the safer sex section is worth a WHOLE SEPARATE PAGE. How do you define sex? Some people consider any genitalia touching sex, some only consider PIV/PIA sex. Some people don't actually think of oral sex as sex. Are you aware that many times when people get a standard STD panel that doesn't include HSV? Are certain STDs just straight up dealbreakers for sexual contact and others not? If there is a condom break or a slip, what is the expectation for notification and also how long until testing, back to barriers?

Safer sex stuff is a whole detailed conversation and a single bullet about condom use or fluid exchange doesn't really cover it even slightly. So I'd consider writing all of that out in detail as a way to document that all parties are on the same page about how each person practices safer sex.

I also think that a lot of the items on that list are not so much rules as just expectations of conduct? Sort of, this is my expectations for how we treat each other. So you may want to be more clear about what things are explicitly rules that everyone is agreeing to, and what are just "let's treat each other kindly" expectations.

Fair point. I didn't want it to be too long though. I have to rein in my desire to go into very fine details on topics like this when most people would prefer more of a 10,000-foot view. For me this is a compromise to like a 5,000-foot view where it's not as detailed as I want, and not as vague as most people want. I was trying for a happy medium, but if they wanted to discuss it I'd be on board. :p

Arguable all of this is "how we treat each other", and this goes into a little bit of detail on what treating each other kindly looks like...
 
Yup. People who are dating potential need to talk to "calibrate" word usage to avoid misunderstandings. It's part of the "getting to know you."

That is something to mention to new potentials.

And that right there can help you weed out people who aren't going to be compatible. Dating is work, but that's the point of dating right? To find the compatible people?

Galagirl

From my experience dating is about putting your best mask on and convincing people to invest emotionally into you, and then once they do slowly lower the mask inch by inch to see if they run. I would love for it to be a getting to know you part but I've yet to find anyone who's open and honest to someone they are still getting to know. I do mention it, and many other things. I try to be open and honest in my dealings with potential partners, in other words, I shot myself in the foot on a regular basis and dramatically lower my success rates. Like you said though I'm looking for someone compatible and I'm too old, and too happy to deal with too much BS. Lastly, I would say relationships are work, dating is pretty fun and exciting. I mean who doesn't love them some NRE? But then as I said it's two people pretending to be something they aren't to make the other person like them. I feel like that sounds bitter... it's just to the truth that I've seen, but I doubt many want to acknowledge it.
 
I think the safer sex section is worth a WHOLE SEPARATE PAGE. How do you define sex? Some people consider any genitalia touching sex, some only consider PIV/PIA sex. Some people don't actually think of oral sex as sex. Are you aware that many times when people get a standard STD panel that doesn't include HSV? Are certain STDs just straight up dealbreakers for sexual contact and others not? If there is a condom break or a slip, what is the expectation for notification and also how long until testing, back to barriers?

Safer sex stuff is a whole detailed conversation and a single bullet about condom use or fluid exchange doesn't really cover it even slightly. So I'd consider writing all of that out in detail as a way to document that all parties are on the same page about how each person practices safer sex.

I also think that a lot of the items on that list are not so much rules as just expectations of conduct? Sort of, this is my expectations for how we treat each other. So you may want to be more clear about what things are explicitly rules that everyone is agreeing to, and what are just "let's treat each other kindly" expectations.
I second the idea about what constitutes sex and cheating. The OP says fantasies are fine, romantic feelings are fine... just as long as there is no sex. What is sex? (Let's not assume male/female sex only.)

Frottage (dry humping)
Penis in mouth
Penis in vagina
Penis in ass
Penis between breasts, etc.
Vulva, clitoris in mouth
Fingers, hands, feet, toes etc., on penis or on or in vulva/vagina
Fingers, fist in ass
Breast play:
- outside clothing
- in underwear (t-shirt/bra)
- (fingers only) on bare skin
- sucking on breasts/nipples/chest
Closed-mouth kissing
Open-mouth kissing, no tongue
Open-mouth kissing with tongue
Fondling the buttocks
Use of a toy on the vulva and/or inside vagina
Use of a toy in ass
FF "scissoring"
Watching porn
Browsing dating sites, flirting or having sexy conversations
Flirting, talking about sex in real life
Going dancing (in clubs, maybe while drinking, or even just taking dance lessons)
Cybersex with unpaid willing participants
Cybersex (cam girls or boys) involving payment
Unlawful molestation of minors
Mutual masturbation
Voyeurism
Exhibitionism (photos or irl)

Public displays of affection (holding hands, arms around each other, full body hugging, kissing on the mouth, sitting with your sides fully touching, laying a head in a lap, sitting on a lap)

Kinky activities that might not involve genitalia, but can be arousing (a short list)
Rope ties (artistic shibari)
Restraints
Dom/sub power exchange:
- age play
- diet restrictions
- sleeping rules
-clothing/hygiene/grooming rules
- masturbation limits
- chastity devices
- phone or text scheduled D/s "dates"
Pet and pony play
Water sports
Foot fetish
Various kinds of impact play (leaving marks or no marks?)
Collars, leashes, handcuffs
Various kinds of household service
Certain kinds of language and nicknames
Cages/confinement
 
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I second the idea about what constitutes cheating. The OP says fantasies are fine, romantic feelings are fine... just as long as there is no sex. What is sex? (Let's not assume male/female sex only.)

Public displays of affection (holding hands, arms around each other, full body hugging, kissing on the mouth, sitting with your sides fully touching, laying a head in a lap, sitting on a lap)

Kinky activities that might not involve genitalia, but can be arousing (a short list)

More semantics. As I mentioned before while I enjoy the discussion it's completely valid for people in different areas to have different definitions of the word.

For me Collin's definition sums it up: sex is physical activity between people that involves the sexual organs.

To your point (Fingers, fist in ass - Open-mouth kissing with tongue), I would include the mouth and asshole as sexual organs well. (I would give a pass for socially acceptable kissing. i.e. french people, family members, etc.)

I don't consider anything that doesn't involve physical contact as sex. I don't feel like, even someone as extreme as, people masturbating in front of each other is sex because even though genitals are involved they aren't touching. I would say that's breaking the spirit of the rule, without technically breaking the rule, though. No rule is going to be perfect though, and regardless of how much we try there will still be unforeseen loopholes that can be abused. While I enjoy those kinds of highly detailed discussions, again I don't find that others do. I also think that most people get a false sense of security with those types of discussions because as I previously mentioned every rule has some type of loophole to exploit...

On the public stuff, I feel like things like sitting in someone's lap or laying your head on someone's lap involves genitals, and would break the rule even though something was in between you. Whether it be pants or a condom a barrier in my mind doesn't mean you haven't involved your genitals.

On the kinky stuff, doesn't count as sex to me. That said if the person considers feet an erogenous area it would be included just like the mouth and ass. I don't so I don't think of it that way, but if I were with a partner who did and they did something they considered sexual with their feet it would be cheating in my mind.

I don't consider getting aroused to be sex or cheating. I firmly believe that a naked woman (or man) walking down the street hasn't agreed to or had sex with anyone. I think everyone's mind wanders and fantasizes about people they aren't currently in a relationship with, and I'm not about trying to guilt someone over a thought crime they have little to no control over. (and I'm not sure they should even try) The line in the sand for me is if you physically act on those fantasies. Again just my position on what does and does not sex/cheating, your mileage may vary.
 
I hear you. On this board, we do like to talk subjects to death, though, so you're in luck to have found us!

I agree that people's definition of sex varies. Therefore, a simple contract like you first proposed is only going to go so far.

I do know some people who don't think masturbation is sex. I do think that when I masturbate, I am having sex, with myself! However, I don't consider myself to be cheating on my partner or partners when I do it, because I am the only one involved.

I do think cybersex is sex.

Some people have "don't ask, don't tell" agreements, or even unspoken understandings, where they turn a blind eye to what their spouse/partner is doing with others. But if they really chose to look closely, they are condoning "cheating," to the point where they are in an Open relationship, but refuse to admit it, since they are basically hypocrites and want to "fit in to what society expects."

I do not think merely watching porn is cheating on a partner, but paying a cam girl or boy and asking them to do certain things while I masturbate would be sex, to me. And others (in closed relationships) would consider paying a cam girl or boy to do sexual things to be cheating, just as much as if you had actual sex with a sex worker.

I am not sure the purpose of your proposed contract. Would it be combined with more detailed discussions of the finer points, and the so-called loopholes, to determine the nuances, differences of opinions, and prevent misunderstandings?

My ex h considered that when I was dancing with another guy I was cheating on him sexually. (I could dance with another woman, even though he knew I was bi, lol.) Over the years, he became more relaxed about this, but only if we were at a wedding and he was watching me, or could watch me if he wanted to. But it seemed this only applied to weddings. The more casual the party, the more suspicious he became.
 
I hear you. On this board, we do like to talk subjects to death, though, so you're in luck to have found us!

I agree that people's definition of sex varies. Therefore, a simple contract like you first proposed is only going to go so far.

I do know some people who don't think masturbation is sex. I do think that when I masturbate, I am having sex, with myself! However, I don't consider myself to be cheating on my partner or partners when I do it, because I am the only one involved.

I do think cybersex is sex.

Some people have "don't ask, don't tell" agreements, or even unspoken understandings, where they turn a blind eye to what their spouse/partner is doing with others. But if they really chose to look closely, they are condoning "cheating," to the point where they are in an Open relationship, but refuse to admit it, since they are basically hypocrites and want to "fit in to what society expects."

I do not think merely watching porn is cheating on a partner, but paying a cam girl or boy and asking them to do certain things while I masturbate would be sex, to me. And others (in closed relationships) would consider paying a cam girl or boy to do sexual things to be cheating, just as much as if you had actual sex with a sex worker.

I am not sure the purpose of your proposed contract. Would it be combined with more detailed discussions of the finer points, and the so-called loopholes, to determine the nuances, differences of opinions, and prevent misunderstandings?

My ex h considered that when I was dancing with another guy I was cheating on him sexually. (I could dance with another woman, even though he knew I was bi, lol.) Over the years, he became more relaxed about this, but only if we were at a wedding and he was watching me, or could watch me if he wanted to. But it seemed this only applied to weddings. The more casual the party, the more suspicious he became.

I was surprised two different people wanted to discuss semantics, that's unusual by my experience.

I'm not looking to cover everything, I'm just looking for it to get a bit more detailed than most people enjoy being.

I'm curious, why do you feel directed porn is sex? I assume it's the interaction piece, but theoretically, you could find pre-recorded porn that covers what you're directing. (or really close to it) For me, it would be like walking in on someone masturbating and telling them to continue as you leave the room equates to me having sex with them because I interacted with them? Of course, the line in the sand for me is physical contact so this is likely something others understand and I'm just missing...

The purpose is to give a starting point of the discussion for a loose set of rules on how the relationship will be structured. If during that discussion someone feels like going into more detail on a specific point it can be expanded to cover that as needed. I don't envision it being a discussion of the nuances of semantics, but it will likely bring up differences of opinion, set expectations, and help to prevent misunderstandings.
 
But then as I said it's two people pretending to be something they aren't to make the other person like them. I feel like that sounds bitter... it's just to the truth that I've seen, but I doubt many want to acknowledge it.

I get that happens sometimes.

I rather not play games like that. I can't do anything about how the other person chooses to behave, but I can choose whether or not *I* go around pretending or not. I rather just be authentic. Whether it is making a new friend or more.

It sounds like you have enough for now though on your draft agreements for conversation starting points. And the details of them you could sort with the actual potential.

Galagirl
 
It sounds like you have enough for now though on your draft agreements for conversation starting points. And the details of them you could sort with the actual potential.

Galagirl

Yes, thank you very much for your time and insights I appreciate the second set of eyes.
 
I don't see that anyone mentioned it in this thread, but there's the checklists from the book "Opening Up." The main link got weird over the summer but they are archived on Wayback Machine and can be viewed there.

Since you seem to enjoy discussion, maybe think about talking over them with potentials as you are forming agreements with them.

Creating Authentic Relationships

Open Relationship Checklist

Reflecting on Change

Self Evaluation

Galagirl
 
I don't see that anyone mentioned it in this thread, but there's the checklists from the book "Opening Up." The main link got weird over the summer but they are archived on Wayback Machine and can be viewed there.

Since you seem to enjoy discussion, maybe think about talking over them with potentials as you are forming agreements with them.

Galagirl

I downloaded all of them thanks. Sadly I have to be careful about the length of these types of discussions at the beginning of the relationship most people are full of passion, I'm trying to figure out what makes them tick. You may be able to be open, direct, and honest I've never found that to work. Don't get me wrong I still don't lie about the big stuff, but most people don't even initiate deeper discussions starting out so I can get around it.

At his point though I'm tired of even doing that much. I find most people boring, it seems like all they want to do is bitch, and because women have been chased all their lives for sex (can you say testosterone) they seem to have an inflated sense of importance even though their life is fucked up, and they don't know how to do anything. When I was in financial ruin after the housing bubble burst I ran across this article and it changed my perspective on life - https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person and I look at people who say some version of "but I'm a good person" from that lense. Of course, as Einstein said “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” so maybe they are achieving their goals and I'm just judging them based on what my goals in life are. Maybe I'm just bitter from my most recent attempt at dating (I'm sure that plays some part in it), but it seems like everyone my age is going to work until they die, and they hate their life so much they get blitz out of their minds every weekend trying to escape. Wow, I got negative there... /stop rant
 
I have to say if I was dating someone, and he/she presented me with this list of rules, I'd nope out pdq. It's great to know what you want, to have dealbreakers, must-haves, etc., but there needs to be space for your partner's needs, wants and desires. Shouldn't relationship agreements be something you create TOGETHER, based on what you BOTH want? Seems like you're building a box then expecting your partner to fit in it. Just my opinion, others might applaud your concise knowledge of who and how exactly you want to to relationship.
 
I have to say if I was dating someone, and he/she presented me with this list of rules, I'd nope out pdq. It's great to know what you want, to have dealbreakers, must-haves, etc., but there needs to be space for your partner's needs, wants and desires. Shouldn't relationship agreements be something you create TOGETHER, based on what you BOTH want? Seems like you're building a box then expecting your partner to fit in it. Just my opinion, others might applaud your concise knowledge of who and how exactly you want to to relationship.

As I said in the initial post "This is more about having a starting point for me, NOT dictating rules". This list is going to be presented to anyone and tell them how the relationship is going to work. This list is to talk about my rough ideas for the relationship and then to discuss what the other person wants to MAC. (Move Add Change)
 
Don't get me wrong, I love and respect the Sheldon character in The Big Bang Theory, but this list of "rules" for a relationship reminds me a bit of his lengthy roommate contract. It's understandable and endearing that it gives him comfort but getting too formal about it can seem off-putting.

Establishing rules for a romantic relationship sounds a bit presumptuous. I wouldn't present this list on a first date. I'd keep it in mind as you got to know the person on more light-hearted fun dates. What I would do is discuss my desires and preferences, and my potential partner's desires and preferences. What would come up is personal boundaries, as well. These are not rules the other person must follow, they are your own comfort areas.
Like:
"If we get into an argument and things get too heated, and you or I start cursing (for example), I am going to leave the room/house to cool off."
"If your friend Fred comes over, I don't much care for him, so don't expect me to make him a sandwich and hang out."
"No one looks at my phone without my permission."
"I don't do anal sex. Period."
 
Don't get me wrong, I love and respect the Sheldon character in The Big Bang Theory, but this list of "rules" for a relationship reminds me a bit of his lengthy roommate contract. It's understandable and endearing that it gives him comfort but getting too formal about it can seem off-putting.

Establishing rules for a romantic relationship sounds a bit presumptuous. I wouldn't present this list on a first date. I'd keep it in mind as you got to know the person on more light-hearted fun dates. What I would do is discuss my desires and preferences, and my potential partner's desires and preferences. What would come up is personal boundaries, as well. These are not rules the other person must follow, they are your own comfort areas.
Like:
"If we get into an argument and things get too heated, and you or I start cursing (for example), I am going to leave the room/house to cool off."
"If your friend Fred comes over, I don't much care for him, so don't expect me to make him a sandwich and hang out."
"No one looks at my phone without my permission."
"I don't do anal sex. Period."

Well, at least it took a while before I got the "This is a bad idea" responses that didn't provide constructive criticism. You may love and respect Sheldon's character but your response seems to me like you look down on this type of behavior. My list fits on one page of paper on purpose, Sheldon's was dramatically longer, in dramatically greater detail, and I find it insulting to have that his absurd list was compared to my basic ground rules. Unlike you, however, I believe you are welcome to have ruleless romantic relationships. I can tell you I won't feel like it's "presumptuous", or have any other negative opinion of it so long as it's between consenting adults. Do what works for you, and I will do what works for me. And what works for me are some rules in place.
 
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