Advice regarding boundary violation

ksandra

ksandra

New member
My partner recently had a date at our house. Normally we don't bring dates home as we have a very small apartment with zero noise separation and if one of us is out on a date the chances are that the other one needs to be home for work or studying, but because of the circumstances and his date being from out of town, it made sense to have her over and I made arrangements to be out of the house for most of the day.

The two requests I made were that I have use of a clean house at 7:00pm and that she wasn't there when I got home at 7:00pm. Totally happy if they wanted to go for dinner or to a bar or whatever, but right now I'm working on a project pretty much from the moment I wake up until the moment I go to sleep and I am extremely stressed and exhausted and I didn't want to be at all social/wanted to take a nap when I got home. We also have a boundary of no marks from other partners. This is something that we both mutually want and up until now have maintained and been successful at over the last two years.

When I came home at 7:10pm she was still there, our bed was completely stripped, and despite numerous conversations and check ins about the time, my partner had somehow come to the conclusion that what I had actually asked for was to have the house at 7:30pm. He is also covered, head to toe in bite marks, scratches, and nail marks. He swears he didn't feel them happen despite a couple of them having broken skin.

I feel completely betrayed. I went out of my way to make sure that they had a place to hang out, despite it being much more convenient to be working from home, and none of my requests were respected. My partner spoke to his date about marks and she agreed to the boundary and it feels like that agreement went completely out the window and now every time I see him all I can see are the bright red teeth marks around his neck.

They have both asked what they can do to make this situation better and I am at a loss. As it stands right now I never want to see her again. This was a first date and I am so unimpressed by her behaviour and his that I am sorely tempted to veto any further dates (we have both agreed to having veto rights in our relationship, we have never used it since normally we just talk out conflicts and this isn't something we want to change). As it stands I do not want to invite her back in to my home and I will not be this accommodating with scheduling again but I also recognize that I am hurt and upset and still extremely stressed out and exhausted, so I don't think I am approaching this issue with very much patience, forgiveness or compassion. I would like to move past it, but I can't seem to get a handle on these feelings and the desire to *do* something to make this better.

I would very much like some advice on how to best move forward. Please refrain from telling me to adjust the no marks boundary or to get rid of veto.
 
In our intimate network (1990s), many were in "public contact" jobs: teachers, doctors, flight attendants, investment advisors. Many of us therefore stated some variant of NO MARKS OUTSIDE THE UNIFORM, PERIOD.

She came into your home & decided it was okay to piss in the corner. In fact, as many corners as she could get to. If that's how she makes a first impression, I'd doubt that any improvement would be sincere, much less lasting -- but experience has made me cynical that way & YMMV.

And your putz (all meanings) of a "partner" let her, & probably giggled about it. And shrugged it off. And probably thinks you're overreacting about the whole trainwreck.

Why the heck should you "approach this with compassion" -- who the hell DIED?? :rolleyes:

Yes, sure, you ARE gonna have to "move past it." But it may not be easy for you, because it's clear that fences MUST be reestablished OR moved OR added OR hardened. Start with "I need MY house at 19:00 sharp." Only a guess, but I feel like the "territory marks" she left on your (ergh) partner wouldn't have seemed like such a major issue IF she'd been gone AND the bed had been properly changed.

If he can't do THAT, I feel like it's a stack of passive-aggressive revolts against "your rules." Maybe you need to sleep separately for a while -- like in your own apartments. He should consider that.
 
Ugh. I would be pissed off too in your shoes. You tried to accommodate a new situation (date lives out of town) and it sounds like you were clear in your expectations, yet he still cocked it up. At the very minimum, I think him using your apartment to date others in should be off the table indefinitely. That would seem to be the most immediate and sensible consequence of him violating your trust.

As tempting as it is to see her as being equally to blame and disrespectful, really, the responsibility falls on your partner. I think once the initial anger dissipates, you might feel more able to engage with him. Let him know just how hurt this has made you, and how hard it's going to be to think positively of him seeing her again in the future, but I would try to avoid making any rash veto-like decisions - if nothing else, I really do see this as HIS fuck up, not hers, so veto-ing her may not actually do anything to change his future behaviour. For now I'd recommend that you ask him to give you a bit of space to process your anger, and come back to it in a few days. Miscommunications do happen, so maybe he did genuinely think you meant 7.30pm. I think it's more likely that he didn't fully understand what a big deal opening your home to another relationship was for you, why you had concerns about it, and why his ability to follow through on your agreements is so important to you. A case of him thinking with his little head, instead of his big one. It happens, and I think it can be forgiven, but not until he actually understands why what he did was so shitty. Do you think there's a bit of him taking you and your relationship for granted in there? If so, call him out on it.
 
ksandra said:
We also have a boundary of no marks from other partners. This is something that we both mutually want and up until now have maintained and been successful at over the last two years...

[snip]

My partner spoke to his date about marks and she agreed to the boundary...
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Are these boundaries or rules? If it's a boundary then you already have the consequence built in, but by the sound of the second part quoted above it's actually a rule. A boundary might be "I won't be in a relationship with someone who lets his other partners mark him", in which case the consequence is that you'll no longer be in a relationship with him. It might be "I won't be romantic with someone who lets his other partners mark him until the marks have gone away", in which case he's not getting any from you for a couple of days.

A boundary only governs what your reaction to an event will be, not the behaviour of anyone who might precipitate that event. You can make someone aware that you have a boundary, you can ask them to respect that boundary, but as soon as you tell them to abide by it it's a rule.
 
I'm sorry. That stinks. Your partner didn't hold up his end of the various sticks so you could come home and get to work on your project like you wanted. :(

You sound like you recognize that you are hurt and upset and still extremely stressed out and exhausted, and you don't want to over do it.

I could be wrong, but so far you seem to articulate this:

  • I never want to see her again. Implied: I would like you not to bring her here. (a request for your partner)
  • I do not want to invite her back in to my home. (a new boundary for you to keep.)
  • I will not be this accommodating with scheduling again. (a new boundary for you to keep.)

You have a veto, but don't sound like you want to go there first thing. When is this project due? Let's say in 2 weeks. You could temper the above to
  • I don't want to see her during this homework time. I would like you not to bring her here. Could you be willing to do that?
  • I do not want her in my home during this homework time. I will not be inviting her here.
  • I will not be this accommodating with scheduling again during intense homework time. Do not ask me now or in future. Make your own arrangements.
  • I cannot be doing big talks on top of a big project. What both of you can do is apologize, respect the above for now, and wait.
  • After homework time is over and project is turned in in 2 weeks, I will reassess what the non-homework time boundaries and requests are. I will check in for another talk at THAT point in time. I am too upset to do that effectively right now. And I am too busy with project to take energy/focus away from it.

Because if you still feel strongly about it later? You could increase the boundaries if he's going to keep dating her and/or veto and then he's not dating her.

But going with the blue gives you a chance to cool off and see how you feel after the project is turned in. It also gives you a chance to see if he steps it up or not.

Even if it was an honest miscommunication mistake with the 7:30 thing? He could step it up NOW, and not continue all loosey-goosey. Attend to that and all the rest of the dropped sticks.

  • If he was not punctual and tidy? He could be more punctual and tidy NOW.

  • If he told her not to mark him and she did, it's on him to hold her accountable. You may want to watch and see what he does about that. What does he do when people cross his boundaries?

  • If he no longer wants to keep this "marks" agreement? It's on him to make you aware. You are not a mind reader. He's still responsible for tending to this area. What does he do when he no longer wants to keep agreements? Does he make people aware ahead of time or not?

His appointment keeping, his messes, his body, his agreements -- all his things to attend to. Is he attending to them? Or dropping balls?

As for him showing up at home with marks? Do what the agreement says you do when that happens. Whether it is (you don't share sex with him til the marks clear up) or whatever the agreed to consequence is.

I see "Keeping your Word with some follow-through behaviors" as the main issue here. All the rest of the things seem to file under that.

Galagirl
 
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I agree with tenk and Emm. It may feel like it's the woman's fault... I mean she was a guest in your home and respectful guests follow the rules of the home, right? But, the truth is, she has no direct relationship with you. The two of you did not negotiate the rules of your relationship with your shared partner, you and your partner agreed on those rules. It was your partner's responsibility to ask her to leave before you returned, and it was his responsibility to put the apartment and bed back in the order it was in before the date. Vetoing her won't solve your problem because the boyfriend is the issue, not the other woman.

In your situation, I'd probably revert back to your original agreement that your home is your sanctuary, no dating other people in your home. Next time long-distance gf comes to town he can get a hotel room! That's a reasonable, natural consequence.

The marks are harder, in my opinion, because it is your boyfriend's body, and he does have the right to treat his body however he wishes to treat it. As Emm said, you have the right to have boundaries regarding this....if you do not wish to be in relationship with someone who is marked up, you can end the relationship. If it's just a matter of not wishing to see the reminders or his time with others, or a matter of the marks being triggery, you could, as Emm said, enforce a boundary of no intimacy while the marks are visible. But, that's very different from punishing him for how he treats his body. This is a post about marks that you may find helpful.
 
tenK said:
As tempting as it is to see her as being equally to blame and disrespectful, really, the responsibility falls on your partner.
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I don't agree fully. Yes, cleaning and communicating about time is his responsibility, it's their shared home. But if she did explicitly agree to no marks before, she is breaking her word. (There might be a some misunderstanding on what marks are, like bites or rope pressure marks disappearing within a few hours don't count, but those that break skin?)

She did a really bad first impression indeed.
 
If it were me?

1 - No more partners in the home for an indefinite amount of time. I would need to feel safe in my space, which means that comfort level wouldn't change until I either really liked a partner of his OR a LOT of time had passed.

2 - No nudity/physical intimacy until marks had healed. This has been something I have done before with Hubby. He came home with a very unattractive-to-me mark right on his chest. I couldn't stand to look at it, so I asked him to wear a shirt at all times when I was around. The shirt was eventually a reminder as well, so sex was out of the question because that's all I could think about. The mark was left from an activity that is a big turn-off for me, a hickey or something wouldn't have been AS BAD (although I don't like marks on him at all - it is his body, though, so I get over it as much as possible). He wasn't happy, but understood that the risk of engaging in things that could leave visible turn offs is that I won't engage until they're gone.

As for rebuilding trust, I think it'll just take time. Cases of him proving that your boundaries and feelings ARE important. Give him those opportunities. If he fails, then you'll see how he really feels. If he steps up, you'll feel a million times better.
 
Hard for me to reply in depth because I have a hard time with this style of poly (insofar as it wouldn't be a good fit for ME personally.) I'm kitchen table and prefer harmony and at minimum friendship with my metas, and I'm solo-poly and not keen to have anyone live in my home. Having my home-space rights disrespected is cause for great stress to the point where having a partner even live with me isn't something I want. I can't control others, therefore in order to control my space, others must be kept out. The exceptions are my kids and my cat, the end.

But I do want to add my general appreciation for the words of GalaGirl (as always, very insightful) and particularly the notion that you consider a pre-negotiated cooldown period. Establish a safe space for yourself to deal with the stuff you HAVE to right now, and inform partner that you will need to revisit the rest in a less stressful time and space in the near-ish future. If the skudgy emotions become distracting to you, consider writing them down rather than opening them up with partner before the time has come.
 
Tinwen said:
I don't agree fully. Yes, cleaning and communicating about time is his responsibility, it's their shared home. But if she did explicitly agree to no marks before, she is breaking her word. (There might be a some misunderstanding on what marks are, like bites or rope pressure marks disappearing within a few hours don't count, but those that break skin?)

She did a really bad first impression indeed.
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^^This, although I'm willing to give her a bit of a pass since it was the first time they were together. The reason I say that is I don't know easy your partner is to mark, and if her previous / other partners have been difficult, she may have been surprised.

For instance, TheKnight is fairly difficult to mark and doesn't particularly like activities that leave marks. I'm almost impossible to mark although I *do* like those activities. He's been completely surprised by leaving a LOT of marks on partners who turned out to bruise like peaches, and I've had partners amazed they didn't leave me completely covered in marks (seriously, I often end up able to feel things days later that STILL don't leave marks).

So one or two marks I'd have been willing to overlook, but completely covered sounds intentional...
 
I agree with the posters who've said to go back to the policy of no lovers in your home, and also no nookie til the marks are gone.

But you really need to let him know how much you moved heaven and earth for them to be together, and how it felt like a huge slap in the face when your requests were disregarded so easily.
 
I'd be looking past her. This has nothing to do with her and you really have no idea the extent to which these rules were communicated to her. The 7 vs. 7:30 thing is understandable, but I'd be asking myself why my partner was interested in having extensive kinky sex with a first date from out of town in our home. To me, I'd be looking at what underlies that. He met someone from out of town, invited her to your home and got that intimate with her, all on a first date. I dunno - to me, this isn't an "of course" thing. That's a lot of intimacy with someone you both barely know. From my view, this woman wandered into something that she really has nothing to do with. I'd guess that there is a lot going on in your relationship besides this one incident.
 
tenK said:
As tempting as it is to see her as being equally to blame and disrespectful, really, the responsibility falls on your partner.
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I totally agree that 90% of this is my partner's responsibility. As far as having the house ready that was up to him, not her. But she had been told about the marks and my partner doesn't bruise easily at all. They're both saying they were unaware that they were leaving marks at all but given how hard you have to work to mark him I'm having a very hard time believing this as much as I'm trying to trust them.
 
FallenAngelina said:
I'd be looking past her. This has nothing to do with her and you really have no idea the extent to which these rules were communicated to her. The 7 vs. 7:30 thing is understandable, but I'd be asking myself why my partner was interested in having extensive kinky sex with a first date from out of town in our home. To me, I'd be looking at what underlies that. He met someone from out of town, invited her to your home and got that intimate with her, all on a first date. I dunno - to me, this isn't an "of course" thing. That's a lot of intimacy with someone you both barely know. From my view, this woman wandered into something that she really has nothing to do with. I'd guess that there is a lot going on in your relationship besides this one incident.
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Sorry, to clarify she's a friend of ours who happens to live out of town. We've only just started to become friends with her, however I have been involved on an off again (when time and location works out) with her husband since we were in college and consider him a very good friend so she isn't a total stranger. I would never be comfortable with someone I don't know in my home during a stress period like this.

GalaGirl, thank you so much for your post. It's been extremely helpful. For the time being his partners are not welcome in our home, however this does feel somewhat hypocritical as my lover/this woman's husband has been invited to our home before. We did both manage to meet my live in partner's request of cleaning up after ourselves and we stayed out of the bedroom to respect him and, as mentioned before, no marks were left on me despite the fact that I would have loved that. Should I abide by the same rule? That also doesn't feel entirely fair since I've "played by the rules" so to speak.

We have spoken a lot, he wants to keep the agreement of no marks and I have decided I will not be intimate with him until they're gone and that he does need to wear a shirt around me. I think part of why I'm having a harder time with this is that I wanted time to process feelings about him having a date in our house since this was the first time and I wanted a bit of space to do that given how stressed out I feel and now I don't get that space because they're so obvious and while clothes hide the bulk of them there are two on his neck that can't be hidden.

There are a couple other things about this that are bothering me. Before their date she was totally silent on social media, when normally she likes to talk A LOT. Which is fine, she mentioned she had things going on in her life. Except that my partner's phone went off daily with her messages, like to the point where I had to ask if he could put it away when we were on a date. Not because he was ignoring me but because it was hard to talk with the constant vibrations from her. So I feel like maybe I was lied to but I don't really understand the reason behind it?

My self esteem has also taken a bit of a hit. I feel so totally forgotten about and disrespected by both of them. It's like once they got together they totally enjoyed the accommodations I made for them while simultaneously not caring enough about me to treat the requests I had around this situation seriously. Is there a way I can mentally reframe this so that it doesn't feel like such a personal insult? I had previously thought them to both be kinder, more respectful people so this entire series of events feels out of character for both of them.
 
It definitely isn't a personal insult, as I see it. They didn't say "Hey, let's be jerks to ksandra because she's a jerk" or whatever.

They--well, mostly your partner--were rude, inconsiderate, and thoughtless. But those things weren't something they did to you, they were something they chose to *be*. Even though it was your requests and rules being ignored, their ignoring the requests and rules wasn't about you at all, it was about them being rude, inconsiderate, and thoughtless. This is on *them*, mostly your partner, not on you.

That said, it's perfectly okay to feel hurt, or angry, or however you feel. Feelings happen. You have a right to tell them how you feel. You have a right to take steps to avoid those actions from them in the future.

And I might say to them, especially your partner, exactly what you say at the end of your last post, that this behavior seems out of character because you've known them to be kind and respectful, and you're disappointed with them about this.

(As a completely unrelated note, I bruise almost if someone breathes on me too hard, and I enjoy being grabbed roughly, bitten, etc. Which usually results in bruises and marks even if they aren't intended--and with Woody, sometimes they *are* intended. I have a limit with every partner I've had that any marks have to be where I can cover them with clothing; the only allowable violation of that is my wrists, because if Woody holds my wrists too tightly they're gonna bruise, and in the heat of things sometimes he doesn't realize he's gripping too tightly. I don't mind the marks, I like seeing them and remembering how they got there. Fortunately for me, Hubby likes seeing the marks and fantasizing about how they got there, so it works out pretty well for us...)
 
Hi ksandra,

I actually wonder if your partner was fibbing about the 7:30 thing. Like maybe he did know it was 7:00, but saying otherwise got him somewhat out of hot water? You know him better than I do, so you have a better idea if he would do something like that. In any case, I think it's fair enough to say he can't bring people to your apartment even if you can. He screwed up on the agreements. You didn't. Pretty simple.

Basically I think you got a rotten deal there and I sympathize. You mentioned that this was out of character for both of them, so who knows what to think.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
For the time being his partners are not welcome in our home, however this does feel somewhat hypocritical as my lover/this woman's husband has been invited to our home before.
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Why hypocritical? He is not you. Your skills, abilities, wants, needs and preferences sometimes might match his and sometimes might be totally different.

  • He is in charge of articulating his ok-ness with things: He's ok with your lover around the shared home at this time.
  • You are in charge of articulating you ok-ness with things: You are not ok with his lover around the shared home at this time.

Seems fair enough to me. Each one is in charge of articulating their boundaries and making them known. The actual things don't have to be the same.

If he's ok with 1 box to see over the fence, why it is hypocritical if you are ok with 2 boxes? See image.

I think you would do better to focus on agreements that actually meet what each one needs at this point in time, rather than try to make it all "even."

If he does not need glasses to see, but you do, is it hypocritical for you guys to spend money on glasses for you? So you best get him some to make it "even" when they'd just sit in a drawer and be a waste of money?

Should I abide by the same rule? That also doesn't feel entirely fair since I've "played by the rules" so to speak.
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Hon, you guys could agree to treat each other how that person wants to be treated and honor reasonable and rational requests.

My husband likes Crest toothpaste. I cannot stand it. But that is what he wants and asks for. So I buy him Crest.

I like Tom's of Maine. He does not like that. But that is what I want and ask for. So if he's the one shopping, he buys me Tom's of Maine. In our bathroom, we have different brands. His and hers.

Are they the same? Nope. Step back: Is each person getting the toothpaste they prefer? Yep. That is reasonable and rational.

If he likes trains and I like jet planes do you think we are going to have his and hers transportation? NO. Because we are not made of money, and that is NOT both reasonable and rational for our circumstances.

You could step back from trying to have the exact same agreements for lovers in the home. And look instead to see each one is getting what they need/prefer at this time.

Is there a way I can mentally reframe this so that it doesn't feel like such a personal insult?
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Yes. Stop taking it personally. What you are thinking to yourself:

It's like once they got together they totally enjoyed the accommodations I made for them while simultaneously not caring enough about me to treat the requests I had around this situation seriously.
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What happens when you think that their behavior is a thermometer for how much they care about you? You feel like crap.

Let their behavior be a thermometer for keeping their word or not. They said one thing and did another. Result? They are failing at keeping their word. Nothing to do with you as a person. It's about them and their integrity. Integrity is when talk and walk match. You might not be happy about their behavior, but it is not about (your value as a person.) It is about (their behavior).

Ask for the behavior you want next, (maybe the time out stuff in blue above) and see if they deliver. If they can follow through on new words (talk) with supporting behavior (walk)? Then you can chalk it up to a mistake in judgement, and forgive it, and maybe work something out. Mistakes can happen.

You made a mistake in judgement here too. Big ol' project and did you say "No, sorry, may have to go elsewhere. I am busy using space here for big project?" Nope.

You chose to go against your norm of "Normally we don't bring dates home as we have a very small apartment with zero noise separation and if one of us is out on a date the chances are that the other one needs to be home for work or studying." There's a reason you guys normally do that. You chose to ignore it.

Could have stuck to the norm and expected him to go out or make his own other arrangements. It is his date, not yours. You didn't have to be helping with it.

Galagirl
 
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I don't know why you feel you need to reframe what went down. It was disrespectful and how could it not be personal and insulting when your boundaries were clearly communicated and discussed beforehand, yet were completely ignored? No need to try and make that into something else, just because you're uncomfortable with it. What they did sucked. I wouldn't recommend wallowing in the bad feelings but it is what it is. Though feeling yucky and resentful will pass, perhaps what happened is a wake-up call to look more closely at the dynamic you and your bf have.
 
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My partner and I are poly. We don't have veto powers. We don't have boundaries beyond safer sex practices. Basically we trust eachother to do the best thing for our polycule with any situation. We are non-hierarchical, but cohabitating. Our metamours are welcome in our home as it were their home - and it's their choice to come over or not - no pressure. I'm saying this so that you can understand where my questions to you are coming from.

I understand that you're upset, I am a little confused though. Why are you guys in an open relationship? Is it just sexually open or are you guys polyamorous? Quite frankly, it sounds like your partner had one hell of an exciting date...which is the point of being in an open relationship. Yes, a couple things didn't go as planned - but he's a human being and sometimes we drop the ball. I fail to see how you would even try to implement a rule about marks when it's not your body being marked. In some ways it seems like you guys are trying to control each others connections by extension. What is beyond seeing the marks? Jealousy? Insecurity? You seem to consider it a lack of respect for him to be marked..but why? And to mention veto power after their first date - it just seems fearful.

You were kind and gracious to make time in your busy schedule for your partner to connect with someone new - revel in that and know that your partner appreciates you and your efforts. He is clearly sorry for causing you discomfort - my biggest piece of advice would to try and dig deep for some compersion for your lover.
 
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