Afraid of taking the leap from a LT Mono relationship

Arc

Member
Hi everyone,

I thought I would post an introduction and describe a bit about my situation, which is pretty emotionally challenging for me. I have some of this with friends, but have not really been able to discuss it with people experienced in polyamory, so I would love to hear if anyone has thoughts. This might be long; I just have to get it all out. Here's my story:

TLDR version: My wife of ~20 years came out as poly. I agree in theory, but just don't like the idea in practice. Some deep part of me does not seem to want it.

What I am trying to figure out is whether:

1) Can I deal with my jealousy and get over it enough to find increased happiness in a poly relationship for both of us, and (importantly) continue to be in a good, healthy, non-resentful relationship with my wife;
2) Or is a poly relationship is just not for me, even beneath all the social conditioning and fears, and if that's the case, what then?

Here are the things I don't want, and why I feel really trapped:

1) I don't want to say "yes", wholeheartedly, knowing that it with suck and possibly damage our relationship/family. What if I am not able to be happy, and I will not be a pleasant person to be married to?
2) I don't want to say "no", and always feel like I let my jealousies get in the way of her fulfillment. I don't know that she would be get over that.

Okay, now if you want the details, here they are:

I am a cis man in a monogamous marriage with a cis woman for 20 years. We were basically kids when we met, and it's really lucky that we ended up being really good for eachother. Our first few years were quite intense with NRE and connection; I think that I got a huge amount of happiness from the experience of having another person care about me and love me so much (having not had this growing up; and this becomes relevant later). I would say that intense closeness lasted about 10 years, and then we got married and had kids.

The past 10 years have been spent parenting and working, and during that time I felt that we had drifted apart, emotionally and sexually. I doubled down on being a good parent and a good spouse - not trying to pat myself on the back, I think I went overboard to compensate for my own parents' failures, and squashed any other kinds of lust or attraction away as irrelevant now that I was a parent. I was never entirely at peace with monogamy for life, but I decided that it was worth it for what I got - a loving, happy and supportive family. If I could be sure I'd have a good sex life with my wife, I'd probably be satisfied and not want to rock the boat.

Meanwhile, my overall sense over the last 5 years has been that while my wife still liked and cared about me, she was "not that into me," no matter how much she has tried. Even if her conscious mind felt the same, her unconscious mind and her body lost it's passion. It hurts to acknowledge that, but I think it's true, and I miss what we had. (For the record, she has been an amazing mother)

So now, after all this, my wife proposed an open relationship last year. I said okay, but we were both too scared or busy or unsure what to do about it.

Fast forward to last month, my wife comes out as polyamorous and is quite ready to start new intimate relationships (at least, once we're in the clear with COVID). I say "comes out" because it was more like an identity thing than just an idea - she says she's known this since she was a kid, and never got over the guilt, social pressure, etc. to admit it to herself. She's been reading and it all makes total sense to her. You might say she's drunk the Kool Aid (well, I might say that because she tends to think/hope that it can all go smoothly and easily if we just give it a try).

Well, much more than the open relationship talk, this threw me for a loop, and really rocked my confidence in the marriage and my "story" of our relationship. I felt like I'd been downgraded, and to some extent I have - because she's saying that the roles we played for each other all these years can now, more satisfyingly, be played by other people. She has full confidence that this will not threaten our relationship/family, doesn't think she'll be particularly jealous, and tends to dismiss the challenges we might face.

She has not started any intimate relationships, although she has developed a close friendship with a man who I think would probably be a boyfriend if I gave the "okay". She says that she wants me to do the same, and does not seem to feel any jealousy or concern.

I am theoretically and philosophically on board with the non-monagamy. But practically I am having a very hard time conceiving of how I can integrate it into my life and what my feeling of family provides me. I just... like what we've got. I want to improve my relationship with my wife. I like her and want to be closer, not to outsource unfulfilled needs to others and just continue being good life partners/parents.

Okay, a few last points (I know I'm throwing way too much out there for anyone to give detailed feedback):
  • I have been pretty happy, over the last 20 years, at this point in my life, that I don't have to worry about: unplanned pregnancy; STDs; or generally needing to impress people (not that I'm a slob, I'm just not very excited to hit the dating scene; I have a lot of other interests to focus on).
  • I am well aware that I'm bringing my own baggage to this issue - I have a history of people not valuing me or being there for me when I needed them, to the point of trauma and neglect as a child. Then I found someone I knew cared fully for me (that would be my wife; and now my kids). So this is particularly triggering of fears of abandonment. Of course, she's also bringing her own baggage, which is not inconsiderable...
  • Complicating things, I think I have reasonable fears that she will have a much easier time finding partners than me - both because she's a woman; she's gung-ho; she's attractive; and she's naturally flirtatious. I, on the other hand, am a man who is WAY out of practice dating or flirting; doesn't want to seem creepy; and I am ambivalent/less motivated. Whether I'm attractive, well, she says I am, but that's an open question. The point is, I am not very confident about finding my own partners, and fear being 'left behind' as it were.
Whew. I think I got it all out (well, actually, there's more... :) ). This has really been the roughest 2 months in my adult life, and I've got all kinds of shit coming up. I really know that there's this possibility that I could be happy in intimate relationships with others; and I know I could maybe not feel terrible when I know she's having sex with someone else. But it is hard to see that from here. I'm trying to be patient and see where things lead; COVID gives me a kind of natural pause, so we don't have to take action. Thanks for reading!

P.S. There's a chance my wife is lurking on this forum, too, and will recognize this story, in which case I guess I'll just say, "Hi honey!"
 
Greetings Arc,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

My best immediate guess would be to advise you to say, "Yes," to your wife (about polyamory), but do not say yes wholeheartedly. Explain to her your reservations (if you have not done so already), and add that you are only saying yes on the condition that you and she will start working on your relationship with each other. Do you date each other (even though, or perhaps especially because, you're married)? If not, it's time to start. You might also add that you are saying yes on the condition that you and she will start seeing a marriage counselor together. The point is, you don't want to just leave the marriage where it is, and date outside the marriage in order to fill the marital gaps. Instead, you want to improve the marriage, *while at the same time* dating polyamorously if that's what she wants to do.

And the above paragraph would only be the beginning, the tip of the iceberg. There is so much to unpack here; you need to work on your jealousy; you need to find a way to cope with the insecurity you feel from past trauma; she needs to develop a more realistic view of polyamory, and realize that everything is not necessarily going to run smoothly. So much to unpack; you will have to do it one thing at a time. As part of that, I urgently encourage you to stay with this forum, and keep us updated on your evolving situation, so that we can keep giving you up-to-date advice. Also read and explore the forum, see which threads call to you, and post any questions you have along the way. This forum is a good launching pad for all the many things you will want/need to learn about polyamory, and how you'll relate to it.

Even if you find that poly is not for you, the people on this forum can help you figure out your next step. Poly is not for everyone, and that is okay. That's actually one of the things you need to unpack here; you need to sort out your monogamous conditioning, and separate it from any monogamous hardwiring you may have. And as you said, you and your wife have drifted apart, emotionally and sexually. And you don't want things to stay like that. You certainly don't want polyamorous relationships to take the place of the marital relationship you'd like to have. That, too, is something to unpack, and it is crucial to making this work. You feel like you've been downgraded; that will have to be addressed. And dating outside the marriage is a complicated proposition for you. As a man, you probably won't have as much luck as she does.

Don't try to fix everything at once. One small step at a time.
Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter" :)

Notes:

There's a *lot* of good info in Golden Nuggets. Have a look!

Please read through the guidelines if you haven't already.

Note: You needn't read every reply to your posts, especially if someone posts in a disagreeable way. Given the size and scope of the site it's hard not to run into the occasional disagreeable person. Please contact the mods if you do (or if you see any spam), and you can block the person if you want.

If you have any questions about the board itself, please private-message a mod and they'll do their best to help.

Welcome aboard!
 
I'm sorry you struggle. I hope you feel a bit better airing that out.

I think you could be honest with your wife. And say where you are at right now at this point in time.

Something like

1) Thank you for being up front and honest with me.
2) I'd like to be up front and honest back.
3) I agreed to open marriage last year because _____. Today I am relieved nothing came of it. (<-- Is that true?)
4) I do not want to participate in a poly relationship at this time. I'm fine with poly for other people. I do not want it for me.
5) I mostly like what we've got. I want to improve my relationship with you, my wife. I want to improve out sex life. I want to be closer, not to outsource unfulfilled needs to others and just continue being good life partners/parents. I'm still very much interested in you.
6) If you have lost passion or interest in me romantically, best you just tell me that up front and we deal with that first. We can talk about a clean break up and how to be a divorced coparenting family. Then you can be free TO poly like you want, and I can be free FROM poly that I do not want.
7) I do not think doing wonky poly just from fear of breaking up or rocking the boat or fear of speaking super honest is the right move. So let's talk PLAIN.

Put it all on the table PLAIN. Do the talking you need to be doing.


1) I don't want to say "yes", wholeheartedly, knowing that it with suck and possibly damage our relationship/family. What if I am not able to be happy, and I will not be a pleasant person to be married to?

Well, that is a possibility. To go there, find out it sucks. If you are not happy? You say you want to stop participating in this. If she wants to keep driving the bus to Poly Town and you do not? Then you have to get off the bus and you break up.

But if you don't even want to get on the bus in the first place? Why get on it? Just say this is NOT a trip you want to take.

2) I don't want to say "no", and always feel like I let my jealousies get in the way of her fulfillment. I don't know that she would be get over that.

I think it would serve you better to say "No" from the start if this is not your cup of tea or if you don't want to travel this road. Be honest.

If you say "No, thank you, I don't want to do poly" and she decides to stick with you and the marriage? That's HER choice. Because she could have chosen to break up with you and move on and she didn't. If she hates her choice, it's on her to change it later.

Don't be so over responsible. You are responsible for YOUR well being, she is responsible for hers.

You have to be able to say "I love you, but not even for you will I do stuff I don't like or stuff that hurts me."

Maybe you both can agree to something like mono marriage so it's Closed enough for you -- no other people. But more talking about her poly thoughts and feelings so its Open enough for her and she's not going around bottled up.

But if that's not a place you both are ok in? You might be best splitting up.

Because one being mono married when they don't really want to be? That sucks.

And one doing poly when they don't really want to be? That sucks too.

Rather than "save the marriage" one could "save the people" instead.

Meanwhile, my overall sense over the last 5 years has been that while my wife still liked and cared about me, she was "not that into me," no matter how much she has tried. Even if her conscious mind felt the same, her unconscious mind and her body lost it's passion. It hurts to acknowledge that, but I think it's true, and I miss what we had. (For the record, she has been an amazing mother)

If your wife is no longer into you, best she say it up front. Or you ask her. Rather than go down the path of "let's avoid talking about that part, let's avoid talking about breaking up, and let's add more people here to the mix." Do not use poly like a "soft exit" from a dying on the vine relationship. Or like some kind of "band-aid" to solve marital problems.

That's not fair to anyone. And usually doesn't work.

So now, after all this, my wife proposed an open relationship last year. I said okay, but we were both too scared or busy or unsure what to do about it.

Why did you agree to do this? You don't sound like you really want to.

  • I am well aware that I'm bringing my own baggage to this issue - I have a history of people not valuing me or being there for me when I needed them, to the point of trauma and neglect as a child.

Then I suggest YOU value you and YOUR well being and YOU speak up for your own self and be there when you need you to be. Be firm of purpose, rather than waffling about not wanting to say yes and not wanting to say no. If this is not a "joyful yes" for you? Call it a "working no" and say NO.

How long do you have to be married to someone before you start speaking your truth to them?

This has really been the roughest 2 months in my adult life, and I've got all kinds of shit coming up. I really know that there's this possibility that I could be happy in intimate relationships with others; and I know I could maybe not feel terrible when I know she's having sex with someone else. But it is hard to see that from here. I'm trying to be patient and see where things lead; COVID gives me a kind of natural pause, so we don't have to take action. Thanks for reading!

Then TAKE the pause, talk to each other, and put all cards on the table PLAIN. You have spent 20 years together. Why are you not able to be honest with each other?

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
Greetings Arc,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.
Hi Kevin,

First of all, thanks so much for taking the time to read my message and provide such a thoughtful response. To feel immediately heard, particularly by someone who is poly (I think it's safe to assume you are?), and not made to feel old-fashioned, patriarchal, possessive, etc., is very supportive. I think my wife has all the poly ideas in her head, but no knowledge or experience of the complexities, and that makes it hard to talk.
My best immediate guess would be to advise you to say, "Yes," to your wife (about polyamory), but do not say yes wholeheartedly. Explain to her your reservations (if you have not done so already), and add that you are only saying yes on the condition that you and she will start working on your relationship with each other. Do you date each other (even though, or perhaps especially because, you're married)? If not, it's time to start. You might also add that you are saying yes on the condition that you and she will start seeing a marriage counselor together. The point is, you don't want to just leave the marriage where it is, and date outside the marriage in order to fill the marital gaps. Instead, you want to improve the marriage, *while at the same time* dating polyamorously if that's what she wants to do.
Yes, I have explained my reservations; she tends to be very optimistic about how things will play out, which can feel like she's dismissing what I think are valid concerns. I think we are in a holding pattern trying to work on the relationship. Unfortunately that ends up manifesting as stretches where we don't talk about opening the relationship and things feel positive; something happens - usually I get grumpy, down, or jealous envisioning what a poly relationship would look like; she gets grumpy, down, or annoyed about that; we have an intense, difficult, frustrating talk in which she wishes I were just over it - and so do I, actually! And then we start over.

This might seem obvious, but when you ask if we date each other, do you mean do we specifically go out on dates? Basically, the answer is once in a while, but not much (and I'm just ignoring the Covid limitations for now, and thinking back to normal times). I think that she is making an effort now to change this and go on more dates, either because of conversations we've had about how I was feeling, or because she read that it was a good idea in The Ethical Slut.

I think one challenge we have is that she is more or less satisfied with the relationship as it stands; while I feel like it needs work. She has a hard time taking in my feedback without feeling criticized or blamed; and I end up feeling needy, critical, or guilty for making her feel bad. Sigh. She is trying. I think couples counseling is in our future. Many couples therapists are just not open to the poly-perspective, and that would be a no-go.
And the above paragraph would only be the beginning, the tip of the iceberg. There is so much to unpack here; you need to work on your jealousy; you need to find a way to cope with the insecurity you feel from past trauma; she needs to develop a more realistic view of polyamory, and realize that everything is not necessarily going to run smoothly. So much to unpack; you will have to do it one thing at a time. As part of that, I urgently encourage you to stay with this forum, and keep us updated on your evolving situation, so that we can keep giving you up-to-date advice. Also read and explore the forum, see which threads call to you, and post any questions you have along the way. This forum is a good launching pad for all the many things you will want/need to learn about polyamory, and how you'll relate to it.
Yes, I know there's so much to unpack! Ugh.

Jealousy: I want to really get over this. I genuinely see nothing good about it. It's analogous to an anger management problem (which I don't have). The only thing I wonder is if I'm 'wired' for jealousy in some way, and fear there's no way to bring it under control. She says that she has basically overcome her jealousy - it just went away in the process of reading the books.

Thank you for urging me to stay with the forum. I will do this. I think it will be a good support.

Even if you find that poly is not for you, the people on this forum can help you figure out your next step. Poly is not for everyone, and that is okay. That's actually one of the things you need to unpack here; you need to sort out your monogamous conditioning, and separate it from any monogamous hardwiring you may have. And as you said, you and your wife have drifted apart, emotionally and sexually. And you don't want things to stay like that. You certainly don't want polyamorous relationships to take the place of the marital relationship you'd like to have. That, too, is something to unpack, and it is crucial to making this work. You feel like you've been downgraded; that will have to be addressed. And dating outside the marriage is a complicated proposition for you. As a man, you probably won't have as much luck as she does.
Yes, that's a good way to put it - separating the conditioning from the hardwiring. I am really curious about this.

Dealing with the drifting apart will be hard, because I think we have different expectations. I read Sex at Dawn years ago (and wish we'd addressed this issue then) and remember the part about women basically getting bored and disengaged from monogamous relationships. I know she loves me but there's a decrease of passion. And interestingly enough, it seems like just the thought of an open relationship re-booted her libido.

I hate to hear the truth echoed back to me that I won't have as much luck in the dating arena as she will have! The idea of an imbalance, an unfairness, itself really bothers me. Is this more patriarchal social conditioning?

We talked about this last night. She was understanding, but is increasingly moving more and more towards the idea that that "shouldn't matter". We are free individuals and why should it matter what we do with our bodies? There are lots of different ways to be fulfilled, and sex is just one of them. So her having sex with another man should not be that different from her being friends with another man, or even her being friends with a woman. I mean, how do I respond to that?
Don't try to fix everything at once. One small step at a time.
Okay, I will keep that in mind. That's helpful. I've felt like once Covid ends I'm going to get thrown into this head first.
Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter" :)

Notes:

There's a *lot* of good info in Golden Nuggets. Have a look!

Please read through the guidelines if you haven't already.

Note: You needn't read every reply to your posts, especially if someone posts in a disagreeable way. Given the size and scope of the site it's hard not to run into the occasional disagreeable person. Please contact the mods if you do (or if you see any spam), and you can block the person if you want.

If you have any questions about the board itself, please private-message a mod and they'll do their best to help.

Welcome aboard!
 
I'm sorry you struggle. I hope you feel a bit better airing that out.
GalaGirl,

Why yes, I did feel a bit better. Thanks!
I think you could be honest with your wife. And say where you are at right now at this point in time.

Something like

1) Thank you for being up front and honest with me.
2) I'd like to be up front and honest back.
3) I agreed to open marriage last year because _____. Today I am relieved nothing came of it. (<-- Is that true?)
4) I do not want to participate in a poly relationship at this time. I'm fine with poly for other people. I do not want it for me.
5) I mostly like what we've got. I want to improve my relationship with you, my wife. I want to improve out sex life. I want to be closer, not to outsource unfulfilled needs to others and just continue being good life partners/parents. I'm still very much interested in you.
6) If you have lost passion or interest in me romantically, best you just tell me that up front and we deal with that first. We can talk about a clean break up and how to be a divorced coparenting family. Then you can be free TO poly like you want, and I can be free FROM poly that I do not want.
7) I do not think doing wonky poly just from fear of breaking up or rocking the boat or fear of speaking super honest is the right move. So let's talk PLAIN.

Put it all on the table PLAIN. Do the talking you need to be doing.
Thanks for your suggestions and perspective. We've talked about a number of these things, although I have not said so clearly "no". We tend to get stuck on (5) - she just doesn't feel like she's outsourcing unfulfilled needs to others. She feels satisfied in our marriage (except for the mono part). And per (6), I should clarify - our connection/sex life has not been completely dead, and we continue to be good friends, so talking divorce feels a bit early - except in terms of the basic question of mono or poly.
Well, that is a possibility. To go there, find out it sucks. If you are not happy? You say you want to stop participating in this. If she wants to keep driving the bus to Poly Town and you do not? Then you have to get off the bus and you break up.

But if you don't even want to get on the bus in the first place? Why get on it? Just say this is NOT a trip you want to take.

I think it would serve you better to say "No" from the start if this is not your cup of tea or if you don't want to travel this road. Be honest.

If you say "No, thank you, I don't want to do poly" and she decides to stick with you and the marriage? That's HER choice. Because she could have chosen to break up with you and move on and she didn't. If she hates her choice, it's on her to change it later.

Don't be so over responsible. You are responsible for YOUR well being, she is responsible for hers.

You have to be able to say "I love you, but not even for you will I do stuff I don't like or stuff that hurts me."

Maybe you both can agree to something like mono marriage so it's Closed enough for you -- no other people. But more talking about her poly thoughts and feelings so its Open enough for her and she's not going around bottled up.

But if that's not a place you both are ok in? You might be best splitting up.

Because one being mono married when they don't really want to be? That sucks.

And one doing poly when they don't really want to be? That sucks too.

Rather than "save the marriage" one could "save the people" instead.
Wow. You hit on a number of important points about being over-responsible. And at the same time, it's kind of scary to read this, to go right to splitting up as a solution. I'm not complaining, just recognizing how I take it.

But you are right that I am taking responsibility for her life decisions. That is very typical of me! What can I say? I want to stay married; and I want her to be satisfied with her life, not resentful and unfulfilled. But that's not really in my control, is it?

Why not say "No" from the start? Really, it's because I think there's a chance it could work. And I'm attracted to other women, so the idea of having relationships with them is appealing - just not as urgently appealing as it is to her. So I can see it working and being mutually beneficial IF we (or I) can get through the jealousy and relationship issues and not feel miserable all the time.

If your wife is no longer into you, best she say it up front. Or you ask her. Rather than go down the path of "let's avoid talking about that part, let's avoid talking about breaking up, and let's add more people here to the mix." Do not use poly like a "soft exit" from a dying on the vine relationship. Or like some kind of "band-aid" to solve marital problems.
I think she would stay with me and be frustrated and resentful about monogamy rather than get a divorce. I have asked if she is still "into me," and she insists that she IS. I believe her, but I think the WAY she is into me has changed; it's just less passionate. Not un-passionate, just less. And that I think is what she's expecting to get from outside relationships.

That's not fair to anyone. And usually doesn't work.

Why did you agree to do this? You don't sound like you really want to.

Then I suggest YOU value you and YOUR well being and YOU speak up for your own self and be there when you need you to be. Be firm of purpose, rather than waffling about not wanting to say yes and not wanting to say no. If this is not a "joyful yes" for you? Call it a "working no" and say NO.

How long do you have to be married to someone before you start speaking your truth to them?

Then TAKE the pause, talk to each other, and put all cards on the table PLAIN. You have spent 20 years together. Why are you not able to be honest with each other?
I agree about speaking the truth and wish we'd discussed this stuff a long time ago - before kids, and while we were still in out 30s. We both have a lot of regret about that. But we're doing it now, and we really have put a lot on the table - this whole topic has opened up a ton of things for us that sat dormant for many years.

Unfortunately we seem to keep talking ourselves into a rut.

I don't think I will be able to have a "joyful yes" until I feel more confident that I can be happy in a new arrangement and overcome my jealousy. And I'm not sure how I will figure that out.

Thanks for your input, Galagirl.
 
Also, to answer the question of why I said "Yes" to the open relationship. I thought about that, and I think it was because there's been a progression in my wife's feelings. First it was proposed not as polyamory but just sex with other people, to 'spark things up'. It was something we would be doing as a joint activity (whatever that looks like in practice). This did not seem immediately threatening.

Then she really opened up about her identity as poly, and the whole poly-world did not appeal to me (not with judgement, just personal preference). But she was overcoming a lot of shame and guilt by talking about her feelings, and I was supportive.

The more I looked into polyamory, and heard her feelings, I realized it was love, not just sex, that she wanted. I still feel jealous about the sex, but the love part really felt threatening.

And it has evolved even more - she said she was mainly just interested in FWB-type relationships. But just last night she expressed that from a poly-perspective, it would be reasonable for her to go on a week-long vacation with another man (or me with another woman). So the idea of boundaries to the arrangement are seeming to be more and more confining to her. She wants to be free to do what she wants with her body, and stay married to me. I didn't know that's where we were going at the beginning.
 
Thank you for more info. You know what? I think this JUST happened and you may be thrown for a loop.

I encourage you to keep talking and stick to your other routines -- regular sleep, food, exercise etc. So some areas of your life can be stable while THIS area of your life is wobbly.

You seem supportive of wife realizing she identifies as poly. Just not sure you identify as poly, and not sure you want to be doing married poly dating. This is not what you wanted when you got married.

From the sound of it, neither is happy with the marriage as is.
  • Wife says she loves you and is still into you. But she also wants variety and new partners. You cannot turn yourself into more partners for her by magic.

  • You love her, but you don't want to be poly dating at this time. You want to work on the relationship and bring passion back because while the sex is ok, you miss the spark. And you can't get excited about her dating other people and putting efforts in there when she's not esp making efforts with you.

You just don't seem to express it that clearly. So maybe that's part of the problem? Communication issues?

You both have family of origin (?) baggage that is not sorted.

You both regret you were not more honest with each other in the 20 years before. So that adds to the pile. All this back log of stuff.

Then you guys don't communicate well. Example:

I think one challenge we have is that she is more or less satisfied with the relationship as it stands; while I feel like it needs work.
She has a hard time taking in my feedback without feeling criticized or blamed;
and I end up feeling needy, critical, or guilty for making her feel bad.

You may need to work on separating yourself from what your wife feels. Stop being over responsible.

And she could work on hearing feedback not as personal attack, but feedback about a situation that could improve.

You guys sound enmeshed.

Sigh. She is trying. I think couples counseling is in our future. Many couples therapists are just not open to the poly-perspective, and that would be a no-go.

Poly may have been the catalyst, but a lot on your list is regular marriage counselor stuff. Could get on with setting up an appointment.

For instance, work on better communication so the REST of it becomes easier to talk about.

You do not need a single plan. You need a strategy -- a collection of plans. If you by yourselves end up talking yourselves into a rut? It's time for outside help then. To first identify and list the issues then figure out a way to sort them out.

Jealousy: I want to really get over this. I genuinely see nothing good about it. It's analogous to an anger management problem (which I don't have).

Ok. What are you jealous about? Can you list it? And is it bad? Do you only want to "get over it" so you can do poly so you can keep being married to your wife? Like the bargaining stage of grief?

Do you think poly people never feel jealousy? If you have a hard time processing it, do you want to be practicing a relationship model that keeps on bring it up?

Dealing with the drifting apart will be hard, because I think we have different expectations.

What are the expectations? How do they differ? And is it actually "drifting apart" or is is "healthier relating and less enmeshed?"

I hate to hear the truth echoed back to me that I won't have as much luck in the dating arena as she will have! The idea of an imbalance, an unfairness, itself really bothers me. Is this more patriarchal social conditioning?

Women sometimes have to fend of guys who just want to get into their pants. Lots of chaff, not wheat. And in the end? QUANTITY does not indicate QUALITY. That's her dating problem, not yours.

Plus, I think you are jumping the gun with worries from all over the place. How about taking it one thing at a time? Before you start worrying about her poly dating going better than yours? How about figuring out if you even want to be doing poly? Get your thoughts in order.

BREATHE.

We talked about this last night. She was understanding, but is increasingly moving more and more towards the idea that that "shouldn't matter".

It's ok if it doesn't matter to her, but YOU have your own set of personal values, and some things do matter TO YOU.

We are free individuals and why should it matter what we do with our bodies? There are lots of different ways to be fulfilled, and sex is just one of them. So her having sex with another man should not be that different from her being friends with another man, or even her being friends with a woman. I mean, how do I respond to that?

You could say "Thank you for sharing that. I think differently about sex and how I want to share my body. While it is true we are individuals, we are also a married couple and things we do affect the other. If you are saying you prefer to be more like a free agent in your poly dating, then we need to talk about that."

I identify as poly. I do not think sharing sex with someone is the "same" as me being friends with someone. Sharing sex causes a lot of brain chemistry, and I just don't want to deal in that unless I want to deal in that. I also don't like sloppy boundaries with friends.

If there's lots of different ways to be fulfilled and sex is just one of them? I'm ok not having sex with my friends and finding fulfillment with them doing other activities instead.

I could be wrong but your wife almost sounds like she in NRE. Not with a person, but with the IDEA of poly. So she's talking like an NRE drunk person and listening to that talk might be making you feel even more anxious.

We tend to get stuck on (5) - she just doesn't feel like she's outsourcing unfulfilled needs to others. She feels satisfied in our marriage (except for the mono part).

And per (6), I should clarify - our connection/sex life has not been completely dead, and we continue to be good friends, so talking divorce feels a bit early - except in terms of the basic question of mono or poly.


I'm not saying to just leap into a divorce. I'm saying to talk about it as an option just as you would talk all the other options. Matter-of-fact and honest.

  • Trial Separation. Figure out what you each wants.
  • Married. No poly.
  • Married. With poly dating for her only. You would be participating in the poly ship as a mono end point person.
  • Married. Both of you have the option to poly date.
  • Divorced. At that point each one doing whatever they want to be doing about their dating life, poly or otherwise.
    • She could be free TO poly how she wants.
    • You could choose to be free FROM poly, or go poly with more compatible people cuz her style of poly doesn't match yours.

You both get to decide if you want to renegotiate and update the marriage vows to include married poly dating. Or you want to let the vows and marriage go because you have both changed over time and want different of things now. Your wants and personal values no longer align.

Give that you say you both have baggage from the past AND you have trouble communicating with each other? And perhaps some enmeshment going on? Y'all might want to sort that out so you both start the next chapter on better footing.

Whatever the next chapter may be, and whether you do it together or apart.

Why not say "No" from the start? Really, it's because I think there's a chance it could work. And I'm attracted to other women, so the idea of having relationships with them is appealing - just not as urgently appealing as it is to her. So I can see it working and being mutually beneficial IF we (or I) can get through the jealousy and relationship issues and not feel miserable all the time.

That sounds like the bargaining stage of grief. Because higher up you say you are fine with poly for other people, you don't esp want if for you. Now you are trying to figure out how to accept it/do it anyway so you don't lose wife/marriage.

Go slower. Take the time to process, and get a marriage counselor to help you both talk things out.

Some couples take years before deciding to open the marriage. Where's the fire here? Esp in pandemic?

I think she would stay with me and be frustrated and resentful about monogamy rather than get a divorce.

That would be her behavior choice.

And your opportunity to say "No, thanks. I want the person married to me to be excited about being with me. Not out of some weird idea about duty or obligation. You are not happy here. I think we need to talk about a split."

Because what kind of business is that? Her making poor choices is not her doing good self care. And her taking up your sweetie spot while not really wanting to be there feeling all frustrated and resentful? That robs you of finding a marriage partner who DOES want to be there. That's not nice behavior.

And it robs both of you of the chance to be good exes and friends -- a relationship shape that might fit you better than wonky marriage shape.

Save the PEOPLE, not the marriage. I encourage you to do the super honest talking you need to be doing at this time.

Galagirl
 
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In case it helps you any





especially the pitfalls article

Again, take your time, and talk HONESTLY with each other.

Galagirl
 
Hi Arc,

Yes you are correct, I am poly. I live in a V with two other companions, I and the other guy are the legs of the V and each of us is romantically involved with the woman (who is thus the hinge of the V).

While looking for a couple's counselor, when you find a counselor, ask them if they are poly-friendly and if they say, "What's poly," then you can tell them what it is, and they can tell you whether they would be supportive of that kind of thing. I can also post some links for you that will help you find a poly-friendly counselor; let me know if you think that might be helpful to you.

I can also post some links for you that will help you deal with your jealousy; let me know if you think that might be helpful to you.

As a rule, I have observed that in the dating scene, and especially on poly-friendly dating apps/sites, most men more readily trust women, while women have more of a tendency to not trust men. So when a man says, "I am married, and I am looking for someone to poly date," a woman usually instantly gets a picture of that man as being a scumbag. Like he is cheating on his wife, and that's disgusting. Plus women usually get tons of pings from guys looking for one-night stands, so they can afford to be picky and only respond to guys who check *all* the boxes for them. Now that doesn't mean you will *never* find someone; it just means that you will have to be very, very patient.

Re (from Arc):
"There are lots of different ways to be fulfilled, and sex is just one of them. So her having sex with another man should not be that different from her being friends with another man, or even her being friends with a woman. I mean, how do I respond to that?"

You respond to that by saying that it *is* different. It is sex. Sex is not the same thing as friendship. Sex is what you originally promised to keep exclusive within the marriage. You did not originally sign up for an open marriage, and you certainly didn't sign up for a polyamorous marriage. Yes, it most certainly is different.

Remember, polyamory is defined as a composite multiple relationship which is consented to by *all* parties in the relationship. If your wife starts practicing poly without your consent, then she is not really practicing poly itself; rather, she is *cheating* on you openly. Your consent is something that can only be freely given, or it cannot be given at all. As matters now stand, you are not ready to consent to polyamory. As long as that continues to be the case, she is obligated to adhere to the marital conditions the two of you have already agreed to. That is, unless she decides to divorce you, but I am hoping it doesn't come to that.

Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.
 
Wow, GalaGirl. You really hit the nail on the head several times here. Thanks so much for taking the time to respond; I've been feeling very alone and it feels like it is me "against" the entire Poly community (as interpreted through my wife, who is only looking at the good parts version, and I think is having a hard time talking about the challenging feelings).

Yes, she has NRE with Poly! Is that a thing or did you just come up with it? She's seeing all the good things and downplays all of the potential pitfalls. She thinks it will be easy for her, that she won't feel jealous or if she does, she'll just get over it. She is confident that she won't develop strong emotional bonds with any new partners, and that our relationship will be the same, or closer. She thinks jealousy is just a B.S. feeling that should not steer her life. She thinks the sex will be fun but unemotional.
Thank you for more info. You know what? I think this JUST happened and you may be thrown for a loop.
Perfect wording, and I used it with her just last night: I am still thrown for a loop!
You guys sound enmeshed.
Yes, we are enmeshed. She's enmeshed with me, too, because when I get down, she feels responsible, guilty, and angry for being "put" in that position. This is the first time in 20 years that this enmeshment has been an overt problem, and I probably enjoyed the enmeshment for various reasons, but it has really come to a head now and it's not fun;
You do not need a single plan. You need a strategy -- a collection of plans. If you by yourselves end up talking yourselves into a rut? It's time for outside help then. To first identify and list the issues then figure out a way to sort them out.
About marriage counseling, I think she's worried that we'll get someone who will shoot down Poly from the get go; but maybe we can find someone who's not a poly specialist but open to it.
Ok. What are you jealous about? Can you list it? And is it bad? Do you only want to "get over it" so you can do poly so you can keep being married to your wife? Like the bargaining stage of grief?

Do you think poly people never feel jealousy? If you have a hard time processing it, do you want to be practicing a relationship model that keeps on bring it up?
I think I have a inner protective, reproductive fear of competition from other males. I don't know if it is biological or conditioned, and how much is rooted in personal insecurity. The idea of her having sex with another man makes me feel very anxious and agitated. The idea of how it will feel when she comes home, how it will be when we get in bed... all that is like, "NO!" I don't know where it comes from.

I am also fearful of sharing her emotional intimacy with someone else. I don't know how to explain that. I don't feel good about it; I don't want to possess or control a woman's body or mind, keep her in a cage. I am a feminist! That's why I don't like these feelings and would like to unpack and de-activate them if I can. Then I'll see what's left over.

And no, I don't think poly people never feel it - but I think my wife does! Or that it is not emotional or stressful to deal with. Good question about whether I want to practice a relationship model that keeps bringing up jealousy... I don't, but I also don't think I will necessarily feel jealousy this strongly. Is that unrealistic?

What are the expectations? How do they differ? And is it actually "drifting apart" or is is "healthier relating and less enmeshed?"
I think we can achieve some healthier relating and less enmeshed. I am making strides in that area and it feels good. It's an area I can grow in, regardless of the poly/mono outcome. I've become to hunkered down in the family and stopped reaching out to people. I am really working this now.Women sometimes have to fend of guys who just want to get into their pants. Lots of chaff, not wheat. And in the end? QUANTITY does not indicate QUALITY. That's her dating problem, not yours.
Okay, I am breathing... :)

I take what you say about chaff and wheat. I think it goes back to the jealousy - the jealous brain is concerned with quantity.

And I am worried that she'll select some chaff, find out only too late, and that it will cause problems for all of us.

About the feeling of hurry. I think it comes from a feeling that once the vaccines hit, she'll be ready to go. She has a male friend she's been walking with, texting with a lot, and I feel pretty confident that if she could she would turn it sexual, because "Why not? It would be fun." She even said he's a little messed up, but I don't get the sense that that would stop her because, like I said, she is very confident that we won't run into bumps.

All that to say, yes, I will try to chill and slow down.
We talked about this last night. She was understanding, but is increasingly moving more and more towards the idea that that "shouldn't matter".
It's ok if it doesn't matter to her, but YOU have your own set of personal values, and some things do matter TO YOU.
Thank you for saying that. It gets lost in the discussion because of the way monogamy is framed as controlling people.
I identify as poly. I do not think sharing sex with someone is the "same" as me being friends with someone. Sharing sex causes a lot of brain chemistry, and I just don't want to deal in that unless I want to deal in that. I also don't like sloppy boundaries with friends.

If there's lots of different ways to be fulfilled and sex is just one of them? I'm ok not having sex with my friends and finding fulfillment with them doing other activities instead.
Thanks for saying that, too.
I could be wrong but your wife almost sounds like she in NRE. Not with a person, but with the IDEA of poly. So she's talking like an NRE drunk person and listening to that talk might be making you feel even more anxious.
Like I said above; YES! And also I think it's linked in with a person - the friend I mentioned above. I don't think she's crazy for him but just is getting a taste of the possibilities.
Give that you say you both have baggage from the past AND you have trouble communicating with each other? And perhaps some enmeshment going on? Y'all might want to sort that out so you both start the next chapter on better footing.

Whatever the next chapter may be, and whether you do it together or apart.
I am going to have to reread all of this a few times to really process it, but I get it.

Yes, I am working on my own trauma which is only tangentially related to the poly issue.

That sounds like the bargaining stage of grief. Because higher up you say you are fine with poly for other people, you don't esp want if for you. Now you are trying to figure out how to accept it/do it anyway so you don't lose wife/marriage.
Wow, that hits hard. I'm not complaining. Thank you for naming the grief, because that's what I feel. I am not entirely convinced. I don't know myself enough yet. The open relationship topic came up more than a year ago, but the real approach of the possibility is about a month or two, so still thrown for a loop as you said.

But I agree, I need to not feel rushed into this.

There is still a question in my mind: Do I really not want it for me? Or could I really enjoy it. In response to this, I've been reaching out to women to be social with and built friendships with, and it has felt really good. I can see if I found the right person that it could be really positive to turn that into a relationship. So despite everything I said before, there's some part of me that wants it. Or let me put it this way: I want it for myself, but the trouble is that I still don't want it for my wife! I am not defending this feeling, just stating how I feel: I know that if I had a sexual relationship with someone, this would not mean that I don't love my wife anymore or that it would detract from our relationship. I just don't feel the same in the reverse. This is the jealous logic that I don't like and don't know what to do with. And it's why mono life just seems... simpler.
Save the PEOPLE, not the marriage. I encourage you to do the super honest talking you need to be doing at this time.

Galagirl
THANK YOU! Never in the last 10 years have I thought that we could possibly get divorced. Neither has she, I think. This is a very scary option but I agree, one we need to include in the list of possibilities, and recognize that neither of us being happy is not a solution.
 
ARC,
welcome to the forum.

although i have no actual poly experience, i'm the man wanting poly, but in my case my wife says no to me and to her.

my wife and I have been married a long time, we both agree we have a great marriage, we do see a therapist mainly for her issues from childhood (i do bring up issues of my past and present as things come up) and even the therapist says we have a great marriage.

for me, there is no jealousy that I can think of, the "Compersion" aspect for me sounds like I would align with that, being happy my wife is enjoyed by and enjoying another man. Compersion is basically the opposite of Jealousy. i never heard of it until i researched poly and from the first reading about it, I was like hmmm, that sounds like me.
I do see a potential of one jealous memory I had when I was a teenager, but i think if it comes up poly would allow me to process it.

my wife on the other hand could potentially be Jealous in such a poly environment, tho' this has not been tested because she wont agree to it.

poly would allow me to work on personal issues, if that sounds correct.
example: for many years, I have been uncomfortable with social norms, such as me as a married man should be careful around other single or married women. why? I have asked myself. what would really be wrong with sharing more affection with other women, married or single if they were ok with it? I'm not really looking for sex, just more romantic and affection options.

I"m no therapist, but my wife was subjected to trafficking at a young age, i have suggested that "maybe" poly would empower her to be in control of her safe environment with me and another man separately. as apposed to her being controlled by multiple men as a child. again I'm no therapist, but I'm thinking there could be some empowerment here. she doesn't see it. our therapist doesn't agree with poly anyway so there's no support for that idea from therapist.

these are not my reasons for being interested in poly, they are just side thoughts, but I think I've been interested in it for 20 years or more.

Im just trying to take it really slow with my wife, as of today, she's more relaxed about talking about poly, she doesnt get upset at the mention of it anymore like she did a month or 2 ago.

communication is very important.

my post may be rambling, but hope there's something it in that could help you.

3908
 
Thank you for saying that. It gets lost in the discussion because of the way monogamy is framed as controlling people.

Your wife says monogamy is controlling her?

She thinks it will be easy for her, that she won't feel jealous or if she does, she'll just get over it. She is confident that she won't develop strong emotional bonds with any new partners, and that our relationship will be the same, or closer. She thinks jealousy is just a B.S. feeling that should not steer her life. She thinks the sex will be fun but unemotional.

She can think what she wants. What ACTUALLY happens may or may not be something else.

And I am worried that she'll select some chaff, find out only too late, and that it will cause problems for all of us.

Problems like what?

Yes, we are enmeshed. She's enmeshed with me, too, because when I get down, she feels responsible, guilty, and angry for being "put" in that position.

What? Put in the position where she, a married person, has to accept that her behavior choices can and do affect her spouse? That she's not single and a free agent? The one who put her in that position is her. If she doesn't want to be married any more, she doesn't have to be.

You guys have to work on detangling your emotions from each other. Not like you don't care about each other at all. But this enmeshment thing without good personal boundaries... that just sounds like it makes a lot of things harder.

There is still a question in my mind: Do I really not want it for me? Or could I really enjoy it. In response to this, I've been reaching out to women to be social with and built friendships with, and it has felt really good. I can see if I found the right person that it could be really positive to turn that into a relationship. So despite everything I said before, there's some part of me that wants it. Or let me put it this way: I want it for myself, but the trouble is that I still don't want it for my wife! I am not defending this feeling, just stating how I feel: I know that if I had a sexual relationship with someone, this would not mean that I don't love my wife anymore or that it would detract from our relationship. I just don't feel the same in the reverse.

Maybe that is a pathway to poly dating you could feel better about. You would want to date someone you have built friendships with first. Finding the right person and build something.

She has a male friend she's been walking with, texting with a lot, and I feel pretty confident that if she could she would turn it sexual, because "Why not? It would be fun." She even said he's a little messed up, but I don't get the sense that that would stop her because, like I said, she is very confident that we won't run into bumps.

Where wife sounds like she's up for having casual sex even if the person is kinda messed up. She's in it for the novelty sex maybe.

So maybe that makes you not feel so great about wife's way of going.

Just because people are married doesn't mean they AUTOMATICALLY have compatible open/poly styles.

This is the jealous logic that I don't like and don't know what to do with. And it's why mono life just seems... simpler.

Mono life IS simpler. Because 2 people variables to deal with are easier than more than two people variables.

You don't have to do anything about it at this time. Just feel what you feel, note it, and lt it pass. You haven't agreed to change anything just yet.

Go slower. There's no fire or hurry here. Take your time talking things out and figuring out what you each value at this point in time, what you each want in a romantic partner or partners, and THEN see if your personal values and wants still line up so you are compatible or if over time you have grown incompatible.

That would be sad, but better sad and parting clean than making a big ol' mess with the poly thing, possible hurting other people, yourselves, and then ending up broken up in the end anyway.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket or say it cannot work. I'm saying DO NOT RUSH. Go into it educated, not half assed.

Galagirl
 
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Hi Arc,

Yes you are correct, I am poly. I live in a V with two other companions, I and the other guy are the legs of the V and each of us is romantically involved with the woman (who is thus the hinge of the V).
Can I ask a quick newbie question about that? To make it a V, are the legs of the V ONLY romantically involved with the hinge? Or could they also have involvement with other people, and still be part of the V?

While looking for a couple's counselor, when you find a counselor, ask them if they are poly-friendly and if they say, "What's poly," then you can tell them what it is, and they can tell you whether they would be supportive of that kind of thing. I can also post some links for you that will help you find a poly-friendly counselor; let me know if you think that might be helpful to you.

I can also post some links for you that will help you deal with your jealousy; let me know if you think that might be helpful to you.
Yes, that would be really helpful - thanks.
As a rule, I have observed that in the dating scene, and especially on poly-friendly dating apps/sites, most men more readily trust women, while women have more of a tendency to not trust men. So when a man says, "I am married, and I am looking for someone to poly date," a woman usually instantly gets a picture of that man as being a scumbag. Like he is cheating on his wife, and that's disgusting. Plus women usually get tons of pings from guys looking for one-night stands, so they can afford to be picky and only respond to guys who check *all* the boxes for them. Now that doesn't mean you will *never* find someone; it just means that you will have to be very, very patient.
Yes, that's what I expected. I even said to my wife, who is now identified as poly, "If a man approached you and said, 'I'm poly. My wife is okay with it. Let's have a sexual relationship,'" would you believe him? And she immediately said, "No." Whereas if a woman approached ME (wouldn't that be nice!), I would probably believe her (but would want to maybe get confirmation).

And yes, the truth is she will have the pick of many men. She could just suggest it to many guys, and they would say, "Sure, why not?" She knows this too, and knows that it will be different for me. I guess she just doesn't have any solution to the issue.

I think my best luck with be at poly social groups, of which there are several where I live - MeetUps, etc. I looked into the online dating scene and got really depressed about it.

And I have some confidence that I could find someone, but right now I'm feeling pretty discouraged thinking about searching and searching while she's having fun and being fulfilled. Is that in essence what it will mean to be patient?

Re (from Arc):
You respond to that by saying that it *is* different. It is sex. Sex is not the same thing as friendship. Sex is what you originally promised to keep exclusive within the marriage. You did not originally sign up for an open marriage, and you certainly didn't sign up for a polyamorous marriage. Yes, it most certainly is different.
That's what I said tonight. She's a good, smart, kind person, so I can't explain why she had such a hard time acknowledging this. First she was saying, sex can be meaningless. And I said, yes, I know, but we're not talking about hookups, we're talking about at the very least friends with benefits. I used the example of her guy friend she's been bonding with over the last few months (going for walks, texting daily). I said, "Let's say someone like him, you continue to connect with as a close friend and add sex. You're saying you won't feel any emotional or romantic bond form?" I think she finally had to give in, but got mad that I was grilling her.
Remember, polyamory is defined as a composite multiple relationship which is consented to by *all* parties in the relationship. If your wife starts practicing poly without your consent, then she is not really practicing poly itself; rather, she is *cheating* on you openly. Your consent is something that can only be freely given, or it cannot be given at all. As matters now stand, you are not ready to consent to polyamory. As long as that continues to be the case, she is obligated to adhere to the marital conditions the two of you have already agreed to. That is, unless she decides to divorce you, but I am hoping it doesn't come to that.

Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.
I really don't think that she is going to do anything without my consent. She might develop a bond with this guy friend, it might get intense, but I don't think she will act physically on it. I think she would rather suffer than do that. I am not afraid of her cheating. I think you are right that I'm not ready to consent. Fortunately, she is not pressuring me. I know she is really disappointed that this was not easier - as in, it would have been REALLY lucky to have monogamously married someone who also turned out to be poly. She wanted things to be easy, and they are not. And because I didn't immediately reject the notion, she got her hopes up.

She says, "If it doesn't work for you, it's not worth it" because she can't take my unhappiness. I believe her but I fear the genie is out of the bottle and we can't go back to the old ways now, even if we remain mono.

But she is not pressuring me, and basically says that there is no rush, that I'm imposing a rush to "figure this out". So I am going to take that lead and advice from GalaGirl and go slow.
 
Can I ask a quick newbie question about that? To make it a V, are the legs of the V ONLY romantically involved with the hinge? Or could they also have involvement with other people, and still be part of the V?

They can be involved with other people. Or not. Up to them to decide how they want to be when they make their agreements.

The "V" describes the relationship between Apple, Banana, and Cherry. Where Banana is the hinge.

For all we know, Apple doesn't want to see anyone else and is an end point person. But Cherry? She's married to Mango and also dates Fig and has a kink partner called Grape.

But in talking about THIS part of her network? She's in a V with Apple, Banana, and Cherry.

People sometimes draw shapes.




She says, "If it doesn't work for you, it's not worth it" because she can't take my unhappiness. I believe her but I fear the genie is out of the bottle and we can't go back to the old ways now, even if we remain mono.

WHAT genie is out of the bottle? That you cannot "unknow" that your wife identifies as poly? Something else?

What's so great about the old ways? Where you were all bogged down with parenting, not really keeping up with friends from the sound of it? Not really connecting with each other, not being honest or speaking your truths? Or all the enmeshment?

At minimum this experience has made you both become more willing to talk with each other more honestly. You regretted not talking before, so you are doing it now. Taking steps to deeper understanding of each other and perhaps more authentic relating. Taking steps to correct the enmeshment and perhaps some work-life balance along with parenting-couple balance because life cannot be only about the kids. Even if you discuss, consider, and say "nope" to poly? Those all sounds like positive changes to me.

But she is not pressuring me, and basically says that there is no rush, that I'm imposing a rush to "figure this out". So I am going to take that lead and advice from GalaGirl and go slow.

I'm glad to hear your wife is not pressuring you and is maybe slowing down some herself.

Galagirl
 
Wow, GalaGirl. You really hit the nail on the head several times here. Thanks so much for taking the time to respond; I've been feeling very alone and it feels like it is me "against" the entire Poly community (as interpreted through my wife)...
Hi Arc. I think Kevin and GG and the other new member had some great ideas. This board is large, with many members, and I just wanted you to hear more than 3 opinions. Sometimes people judge our board after only one or two members have time to chime in. Your post has only been up for a day, and yet Kevin and GG have both responded often and at length. Most of our members have very busy lives, so may not have time to read and respond as quickly and at such length. Try not to base everything about poly on the opinions of 2 people.
Yes, she has NRE with Poly! Is that a thing or did you just come up with it?

In life, we can have new relationship energy for just about anything. A new person (a baby, a platonic friend), a new hobby, a new music group, a new kind of food, you name it. We can get very focused on something new and shiny for a while. That's just how our brains work.
She's seeing all the good things and downplays all of the potential pitfalls. She thinks it will be easy for her, that she won't feel jealous, or if she does, she'll just get over it. She is confident that she won't develop strong emotional bonds with any new partners, and that our relationship will be the same, or closer... She thinks the sex will be fun but unemotional.

I'm sorry, but that's those ridiculous rose-colored glasses talking. It sounds to me like she already had emotional bonds with this guy she texts every darn day!! Otherwise, why would she want to do that? lol

Polyamory has the word love in it, amor. It's all about feelings! Some polyamorous people are asexual.
Yes, we are enmeshed. She's enmeshed with me, too, because when I get down, she feels responsible, guilty, and angry for being "put" in that position. This is the first time in 20 years that this enmeshment has been an overt problem, and I probably enjoyed the enmeshment for various reasons, but it has really come to a head now and it's not fun.

Our culture is so focused on the monogamous dyad. It encourages us to put all our eggs in one basket. Some people even let all friends go, and men especially, can't or won't share emotional issues with other male friends. It is frowned upon, as men are taught that makes them appear weak.

Men can often only get emotional after getting drunk and maybe even having a fist fight. Then it's OK for them to let their hair down and open the curtains to their souls to each other. This is very unhealthy, obviously.

Also, we are always taught to "protect others from pain," to the point of lying about or denying our own feelings or needs or desires to others. This can really snowball.
About marriage counseling, I think she's worried that we'll get someone who will shoot down Poly from the get go...

I think it's almost criminal how so many therapists toe the party line of monogamy at all costs. The time has come to let go of that one way of relating. It's patriarchal and harmful. It's based on economics, and not on how people really feel. You've read Sex at Dawn. You know this.
I think I have a inner protective, reproductive fear of competition from other males. I don't know if it is biological or conditioned, and how much is rooted in personal insecurity. The idea of her having sex with another man makes me feel very anxious and agitated.

And this is based in the fear of raising "another man's bastard." Again, outmoded economics. In pre-history, children belonged to the Goddess or to the tribe, and were raised with the care and in the safety of an entire community. The way we raise children now, with just 2 heterosexual MF parents, opens them up to abuse, neglect, hunger, etc., with few recourses or safety nets. It also gives few breaks to the parents, who are entirely responsible for their children's well-being, which can damage their adult bond.

The idea of how it will feel when she comes home, how it will be when we get in bed... all that is like, "NO!" I don't know where it comes from.

I am also fearful of sharing her emotional intimacy with someone else... I don't want to possess or control a woman's body or mind, keep her in a cage. I am a feminist! That's why I don't like these feelings and would like to unpack and de-activate them...

Yes, I think this is a great insight. Unlike Kevin, I think few people are "hardwired" to be mono. I think it's instilled by our culture, families, teachers, movies, books, religion, politics. We can change this. It is changing.

And what a sad world it is, where we can only have "emotional intimacy" with one other person, for decades. Why should this be so? Answer: to control women's sexuality. After all, in the Old Testament, men could have multiple wives, while women could only have one husband. If they had deep emotional bonds with other women, who cared? Women couldn't knock each other up.
I think we can achieve some healthier relating and less enmeshed. I am making strides in that area and it feels good. It's an area I can grow in, regardless of the poly/mono outcome. I've become too hunkered down in the family and stopped reaching out to people. I am really working this now.
Good.
... it goes back to the jealousy - the jealous brain is concerned with quantity.

And yet, men love to watch gangbang porn. This is an ancient pleasure, sharing a woman with other men. It goes back to prehistory, and is hardwired. It can be a turn-on, even as it fights in your brain and body with the "cultural norms" of "owning" your wife's sexuality.
I am worried that she'll select some chaff, find out only too late, and that it will cause problems for all of us.

That's OK. Dating is hard, and we do have our ups and downs. Just as in any relationship, with kids or parents or friends or... our leaders... avoiding the issues seems to make us feel safer, but they are still there, lurking and needing attentions.

If your wife has dating problems, she shouldn't dump them all on you, as her only confidant. She can tell a friend, or group of friends from a poly group (maybe online, but maybe not here, unless you want to share the space), or a tolerant educated therapist, etc. She could write in a journal.


...once the vaccines hit, she'll be ready to go. She has a male friend she's been walking with, texting with a lot, and I feel pretty confident that if she could she would turn it sexual, because "Why not? It would be fun." She even said he's a little messed up, but I don't get the sense that that would stop her...

It's going to be June, I bet, before there is any kind of widespread availability of vaccines. And it will take much longer to get 90% of people on earth vaxed twice. So you've got 8 months at a bare minimum. You feel an urgency, you're scared, and you want to do lots of research. But there isn't actually a rush!
Yes, I am working on my own trauma, which is only tangentially related to the poly issue.
I would say your childhood neglect and abandonment issues have a huge role in this. Polyamory really shows up the cracks in our psyche (and in long-term marriages) that we normally hide. (I am speaking from experience.)
Do I really not want it for me? ... I've been reaching out to women to be social, and am building friendships with them, and it has felt really good. I can see if I found the right person that it could be really positive to turn that into a relationship.


So despite everything I said before, there's some part of me that wants it. Or let me put it this way... I just don't feel the same in the reverse. This is the jealous logic that I don't like and don't know what to do with.

So many men have that OPP-- one penis policy. So many men who have bisexual wives tell them that they can date other women, but not other men. It shows how insecure men's egos are. Real strength and decency lies in having confidence that your wife will still love and cherish you, even if she loves another man. And if you are confident, while being vulnerable and emotionally intimate with her, that will make you seem hot to your wife and make her keep loving you. Often, it makes her desire for you grow. A lot!
Never in the last 10 years have I thought that we could possibly get divorced. Neither has she, I think. This is a very scary option but I agree, one we need to include in the list of possibilities, and recognize that neither of us being happy is not a solution.
Years ago, when my ex h and I first started with our couples therapist, that was the first thing she told us. We could work to strengthen our marriage, and if that didn't happen, move on to better things if we needed to split. Either way, we could get personal insights and become stronger and more actualized and fulfilled humans.
 
Can I ask a quick newbie question about that? To make it a V, are the legs of the V ONLY romantically involved with the hinge? Or could they also have involvement with other people, and still be part of the V?
I wouldn't worry so much about the actual shape of relationships in relationship to each other. As a for instance... I'm married (to Knight), we have a kid. He also has a long term / life partner type relationship with Joan, who lives with us. So that's an easy thing to describe as a V with Knight as the hinge, because that's the simplest description of the romantic relationships ... but then there's also a close friendship and occasionally more between me and Joan, so some would argue triad, though I wouldn't. Both of them are free to have relationships with other people, though this happening right now is a bit unlikely given viruses etc.

I also have a long term partner relationship with Artist, though we don't live together. So that's a V with me as the hinge, but that is occasionally complicated because I do date other people / am open to other relationships. (For instance, pre-plague I was seeing Ginger, who is engaged to someone else...)

Then you move on within the polycule to Artist and his relationships, and that begins to get more complicated. He's married to ArtistWife, though they have a somewhat non-romantic type relationship but live together happily. She casually dates and formerly had another live-in life partner. And Artist has another partner, Elayne, who's a bit less entangled in his life than I am, and is also married, and dates a bit in non plague times...

It gets complicated, yes, and I don't usually try and explain it all in one shape - were the points more defined I could call parts of it a V or N or triad but that's just not how any of us in my particular polycule roll. :)
 
Re (from Arc):
"To make it a V, are the legs of the V *only* romantically involved with the hinge? or could they also have involvement with other people, and still be part of the V?"

It varies from V to V. In my V, we are, what you could call, "closed," or "polyfidelitous." We do not get (romantically/sexually) involved with anyone outside the three of us. Although, in theory, it might be possible for one or more of us to start a new outside relationship ... but that relationship would not be sexual unless we adopted the new person into our V (and became an N or a Z). There would be a lot of conditions for this to happen, and the new person would have to get along well with all three of us. In practice, this would be complicated, and honestly, not something that interests any of us at this time, and probably never will.

On the other hand, there are V's that are "open" and generally polyamorous, in which the people in the V are free to get romantically/sexually involved with people outside of the V. It really depends on what "model" of V the three people agree on, they could even agree to a "half-open" V in which the legs may date outside of the V but the hinge will only date within the V. Which is just an example to show that there can be more than just one or two models of a V, it's just up to the three people in the V to come to an agreement about which model they would like to have.

Here are those links I mentioned in my last post. First, links for finding a poly-friendly therapist:
And next, links for coping with jealousy:
Hopefully that helps.

Re:
"I think my best luck with be at poly social groups, of which there are several where I live ..."

I agree, that, as a man, that would be your best bet (as far as dating is concerned). Of course you wouldn't want to just show up and start hitting on women ... they would see that as creepy. Instead, be open to the formulation of platonic friendships, knowing that eventually, one or more friendships could evolve into something more than a friendship. Or, a new friend could even be a reference for you, if you will, if they know someone else that might be willing to date you.

Re:
"And I have some confidence that I could find someone, but right now I'm feeling pretty discouraged thinking about searching and searching while she's having fun and being fulfilled. Is that in essence what it will mean to be patient?"

That's certainly a big part of it.

There's an article you might find interesting: https://poly.land/2016/12/20/the-switcheroo-when-enthustiastic-openers-become-benchwarmers/

Re:
"She says, 'If it doesn't work for you, it's not worth it,' because she can't take my unhappiness. I believe her, but I fear the genie is out of the bottle and we can't go back to the old ways now, even if we remain mono."

Well yes. Just introducing polyamory to the dialog will leave your marriage forever changed. From now on, she will be the wife who *wants* to be poly. Who *wishes* she could be poly. You can't unknow that.

Anyway those are some of my thoughts.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Hi everyone,

I want to thank you all for the comments, and please trust that I have either read them taken them in, or will come back and respond at some point.

I'm in a place, right now (well, today), where the more I engage with the topic, the more all my negative feelings, fears, jealousies, and hopelessness are activated. So my lack of response is not an indication that I don't appreciate your input; I will return to this forum soon - it has already been a huge support. Thank you!

- Arc
 
Well, just after I posted my last comment, saying I was taking a break, we had a pretty challenging but not dysfunctional conversation. I basically told her that I needed to know how serious of a problem our current setup was for her; because I keep getting my hopes up that it's not as 'bad' as I thought (bad in terms of our incompatibility, not bad as a judgement of poly). "Maybe she just wants some exciting sex; to swing, etc. To feel young again." And she has said things to indicate that that's the case. We even stopped using the word poly and switched to ENM, which felt safer to me. But tonight, she indicated that our situation was similar to the situation of a friend who's partner never wants sex, and that was a wake up. Being in a marriage without sex sounds like torture to me; is that really what it's like to be mono with me, even though she says we have enough sex, and its good? If that's the case, then things are worse than I thought, and I told her that this was how I felt.

Several people have told me to slow down, not rush this process. I've tried, and obviously I have not succeeded. We went four days not talking about this, and then it got triggered. I don't know if I regret that or not; would it have been better to wait 6 months, for her to get her hopes up; At least this time I think we communicated some painful truths instead of falling into a downward spiral like in the past.

But I have had this feeling that I can't delude myself, I need to be ready, and I need her to take seriously what we're dealing with. And we basically faced and acknowledged that she is poly, really poly, and that I am not. It was surprisingly hard to hear this, flat out, from her - even after all these discussions, I didn't want to hear it stated so starkly. I knew that she wouldn't have said it then if it weren't really important and essential to her, like being gay or trans. She also said that she couldn't predict what type of relationship she would want - another thing that I knew to be true (based on input from another thread here) but she hadn't really acknowledged. Damn, that was scary to hear.

I told her that I have been really scared for the security of our family unit, and that she had not done anything to validate my concerns or reassure me that we would be okay. I told her that if she had just said, "I hear you, I know that's a possibility [pregnancy; relationship intensification; breakdown of our relationship; distraction from our kids; her getting jealous; etc.], and I want you to know that I'll work with you to make sure your concerns are taken into consideration, and we protect our relationship" instead of denying these valid concerns, we might be in a more promising place.

She apologized for all that, which made me feel like the feeling of being gaslit might finally be over.

A big part of her experience comes down to feeling caged. And the problem I see is that any type of boundaries, limits, etc. I put forward withing a poly situation, she might still very likely feel caged. If I say no that [Sleepovers; vacations; seeing the other person more than x times/week] doesn't work for me, that may make her feel caged just like monogamy did.

In the end, she said she was done with poly. That it wasn't worth the pain between us, that she would just conform to social norms and our marital norms. That she wished she'd stuffed her feelings down to begin with and never mentioned any of this. I don't think she was being passive aggressive here, she meant it. I told her that I didn't know how she could be happy this way. I want her to see a poly-friendly therapist but she refuses (?!).

I don't feel good about this at all, and of course it's not over, but one thing that makes me feel better is that if she can't handle my feelings now, and can't communicate about them without getting defensive, then she's not really set up to lead a healthy poly life, with or without me. And that is not my fault, it's her cross to bear or her challenge to face.

Now I think we're really going to take a break, at least until we find a couples therapist, because I think most of the cards are finally on the table now.
 
Sounds like she's admitting to giving mixed messages before.

I'd like to ask if you could be willing to clarify what "protect our relationship" means to you. What do you mean by that?

A big part of her experience comes down to feeling caged. And the problem I see is that any type of boundaries, limits, etc. I put forward withing a poly situation, she might still very likely feel caged. If I say no that [Sleepovers; vacations; seeing the other person more than x times/week] doesn't work for me, that may make her feel caged just like monogamy did.

Well, who was the one caging her? Her. She could have spoken up sooner about these thoughts and feelings rather than holding them in so long.

However it is she feels? You are in the system. You have your thoughts and feelings too. I don't know how you are supposed to change from monogamous marriage to some other model without working out the terms of the new model. If negotiations with you still makes her feel too caged because she just wants to plunge on ahead? And that's a personal limit for you -- you do NOT want to just plunge on ahead? You want to have a talk about hard limits (will never change) and soft limits (things that could change over time)? How this might unfold at a pace you both can deal with before you agree to go there?

Then you could exercise the choice to bow out. You do NOT want to take the bus to Poly Town like THAT. What that means (give up the want to go there, a trial separation, a divorce, etc) is up to you all.

You HAVE to be able to say "I love you. But not even for you will I do stuff that hurts me. Because I have to love and take care of me too."

In the end, she said she was done with poly. That it wasn't worth the pain between us, that she would just conform to social norms and our marital norms. That she wished she'd stuffed her feelings down to begin with and never mentioned any of this. I don't think she was being passive aggressive here, she meant it. I told her that I didn't know how she could be happy this way. I want her to see a poly-friendly therapist but she refuses (?!).

I wonder why she is willing to hurt herself like that. Is this her habit in other areas of life too? To stuff things down?

I believe feelings ensue after behavior. If she goes around bottling stuff up or "swallowing it" so as to "keep peace on the outside" or avoid having to do conflict resolution? That's just going through the motions then. That's not living authentically. It's like wearing a mask or playing a role.

If wearing a mask leads to feelings of "being caged" over time? Well, that's to be expected. Wearing a mask is not living like the real you. So that behavior leads to feelings of disquiet on the inside. Certainly doesn't lead to feelings of peace on the inside.

If she wants new feelings to ensue, she could change her behavior choices.

Hard as it has been? You guys are ACTUALLY talking now. Getting a deeper understanding of each other.

I don't feel good about this at all, and of course it's not over, but one thing that makes me feel better is that if she can't handle my feelings now, and can't communicate about them without getting defensive, then she's not really set up to lead a healthy poly life, with or without me. And that is not my fault, it's her cross to bear or her challenge to face.

Yup. Her behavior choices are not your doing. If she responds or reacts to your honest feelings with defensiveness? Gets all prickly about it in her communication style? I don't get how this way of going would help with other poly partners. But it's her cross/challenge as you say. You have your own stuff to work on.

Now I think we're really going to take a break, at least until we find a couples therapist, because I think most of the cards are finally on the table now.

I hope the cards really are on the table now and you are both speaking PLAIN.

I hope you are able to find a couples therapist you can work with to help determine what the best thing to do is.

Galagirl
 
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