Agreements on sex protection, health and "specialness"

[Mimmi]

Dear All,

I came out as polyamorous four years ago now. (I fell in love with two people at the same time, tried making it work, but it didn’t.) Then I got in an open relationship, then afterwards in a monogamous relationship for one year. (We tried opening it up, but it didn’t work.) Glad that it ended, because towards the end there was a lot of gaslighting and manipulation from her side.

Point being that since then (1 year ago), I feel happier and more in line with my inner self and identity. This is the case also because I finally started dating and experiencing other prebuilt relationships outside of the monogamous scheme. This has come with a lot of joy, but also difficulty, given that, aside from participating in a couple of PolyAperitivos in my town, most of my loved ones (partners and non) are monogamous, or have had a few experiences with open couples, but know little about being poly. This often makes me feel lonely, and like the one expected to have all the answers and tools.

Q1: recommendations other than reading on how to build a network/divide the work with partners?

I find myself confused on what to do about a recent event taking place, which is why I could use some advice. Here it goes:

My partner Civ and I have been in a non-hierarchical relationship for the past 8 months now. He has another partner. (He has recently defined her as such. Before, it was his ex-girlfriend, who he still loved and had sex with.) And so do I. He is new to polyamory and, in general, is less experienced than me in romantic relationships and intimacy.

After the first two months, we started having unprotected sex. As time passed, this continued happening. I was often the one that proposed it. Whilst despite being happy to do it without, he was still worried about the risks, which is why he proposed an agreement: unprotected sex amongst us and protected with others (when it came to penetration).

At the time, we spoke about it only regarding health terms. No emotional connection or commitment was tied to it. (We had had a conversation already about me being poly and not hierarchical.) He told me the agreement was so that he felt the health risks were fewer. I agreed to the agreement because it felt like a compromise I was happy to make, and because after two years of sex with people without a penis, I thought I would do just fine using protection with other people I would have penetrative sex with. (Probably I had forgotten the general excitement I get doing it without and the freedom in choosing for myself.)

Aside from a couple of one-night stands in these eight months, I did not have sex with men. The last two months though, I have been seeing this guy (Pov), and once we did not use a condom. The first time I saw Civ after that I told him, and apologised for breaking the agreement, hence his trust. I told him I would get tested again (in general, our policy is to get tested often and have sex with people that do the same), and that Pov could too. I also told him that I am unsure about the agreement, and that maybe I would like to take some time to think about it more, because:
1. This agreement makes me feel not as free as I would like with my body.
2. It feels like, by imposing a rule on the other relationships, it gives a hierarchy vibe that does not fit how I feel.

When we had the conversation, Civ was very hurt. And only after spending a whole night talking and taking care of each other, I understood through what he told me that, for him, the agreement meant much more than that. It made him feel special and more secure, and me breaking the agreement made him feel like I had risked a central part of our relationship (fantasies, words, affection that come with our way of having unprotected sex), just so I could do that same thing with someone else. He told me his fear of replacement came out, and recognised that with the pain, strong feelings of jealousy, anger and sadness came out. He told me that even if I got tested, he thinks we can never have that special sex we had before. Now it’s lost.

We were both very respectful of each other. However, I find that we speak two different languages on this topic. For me, having unprotected sex with someone else does not mean I take away our sex (and all that it means) to have it with someone else. We can for sure talk about the health part, but despite understanding and respecting his emotions about it, my intention and way of living, love and sex is not exclusionary. What I mean is that, for me, I did not take anything away.

Sorry for the very long text.

 

[Evie]

Civ was eventually honest with you about the exclusivity of unprotected sex being an emotional thing more than a health thing. To me, in your shoes, this would show a fundamental incompatibility as I also agree with your statements:

1. This agreement makes me feel not as free as I would like, with my body
2. Feels like by imposing a rule on the other relationships it gives hierarchy vibe that does not fit much how I feel

So if I were you, I'd break up with Civ and look for more compatible partners. He's already told you that you'll never be a special sex partner for him again, so rather than have that thought in mind whenever you're attempting sex, leave that relationship in the past and find someone in the future who has a more compatible view.

 

[Magdlyn]

Civ was eventually honest with you about the exclusivity of unprotected sex being an emotional thing more than a health thing.

This can happen. It happened to me once, earlier in my relationship with Pixi. I had a long-term male play partner/FWB, and even though I was his only sex partner, and testing had been done, Pixi (who was my "primary" at the time, although we were open to finding co-primaries), didn't want me to stop using condoms with him. She said it was for health reasons, but much later, she realized herself that it was an emotional-claiming thing. She hadn't realized she felt that way deep down, so she couldn't tell me until she knew it herself.

So if I were you, I'd break up with Civ and look for more compatible partners. He's already told you that you'll never be a special sex partner for him again, so rather than have that thought in mind whenever you're attempting sex, leave that relationship in the past and find someone in the future who has a more compatible view.

Never say never. Using black and white words like "always" and "never" are not recommended in non-violent communication-type techniques. This guy is fairly inexperienced in sex/love. He's just had an experience. His gf not using a condom ONCE with another guy has suddenly "ruined" his ideal of sex with her? It will "never be special again"? Umm, things change. Everything changes. Maybe this relationship is not just based on sex, and with time, the condom/sex/specialness aspect can evolve and remain healthy, more reality-based, more mature overall. Maybe there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater because a relatively sexually inexperienced person had a reality-check and had something less than perfect happen.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Hmm, while I do get what you mean about wanting to have control over your own body, I feel like there is a layer of practicality and sensibility missing here. You know, the reason the majority of us do have some form of agreement around barriers is because we genuinely want to lower the risk of STD transmission.

No, it's not about emotional connection for a lot of people, but there is still a need (IMO) to talk to people about their sexual habits when it comes to contraception and testing regimes. It does feel like you've missed a whole bit where you acknowledge that you're barrier free with one or more people, so you have to take some consideration around who else you go barrier free with, because you put those other partners at risk.

I actually assumed you were male, but others think you're female. Either way, people with vaginas/people who are penetrated are at higher risk of getting STDs than people who penetrate, so it has been somewhat surprising to me that your post has been about not wanting hierarchy or the emotional commitment of an agreement to wear condoms, but very little about how you intend to ensure you don't contract or transmit STDs.

As a partner to you, I'd want to hear more about the clinical side of how you intend to handle all this, because otherwise it kind of sounds like you just want to be totally available to others in case they want to fuck you bareback, rather than it being about your own autonomy. You say it's about having control and being non-hierarchical, but it would feel to me like it's more about you wanting to make up for the fact you have other commitments and you don't want to inconvenience anyone further by saying, "Oh sorry, no, you have to use a condom so I protect my partner(s)."

It doesn't really feel like it's about you doing you, it feels like it's about you being a convenience to other people who might want you. It feels more like it's from a place of weakness than strength.

The truth is that, practically speaking, it's hard to find 3 people (2 metas and a hinge) who are truly in agreement enough about safer sex methods to all be barrier free within an open relationship structure. That's another reason we tend to be barrier free with some (typically one) partner and use condoms with others. It isn't because we are all so emotional about it that we forbid it in other partners. It's that if we are all fucking like we do, then putting barriers between some of us just reduces the chance of an STD making it all the way around the circle. It's sensible.

While you seem to be saying, "I'm rational. I don't see the emotion in a condom," it also sounds like you're saying, "I'm totally irrational. I don't want barrier agreements with committed partners, because I want to be free for new partners who might want to cum in me, and it's more important I meet their needs than protect my established partners from infections."

This is all a TLDR way of saying I actually do things the way you propose, but the way you talk about it gives me red flags.

 

[Evie]

You're right Mags, using black and white statements with never /always is absolutely unhelpful and unhealthy.

He told me that even if I got tested, he thinks we can never have that special sex we had before. Now it’s lost.

This sounds like a set up for being able to tell the op that they are going to fall short of that now lost standard. I wouldn't want to live with that, personally.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Mimmi,

It does seem like there is some incompatibility going on here. You feel that wearing a condom imposes a hierarchy, which you don't want, while Civ feels that going bareback is something special that he alone should have with you. Aside his comment that sex with you has been ruined by your indiscretion, there is a fundamental difference in how you and he see things. Really he does want a hierarchy. He wants something special that no one else can have. Whereas you want that specialness with each one of your partners. I don't see how these two polar viewpoints can be reconciled. So maybe a breakup is inevitable?

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[Mimmi]

Dear all, thank you for sharing your take on it and for the many insights.

Civ and I are still together and both feel very strongly about each other and our relationship. Talking about what happened made us tighter, as we soon discovered we hadn’t been as explicit as we thought/had hoped, on all the expectations, fears, desires, and so on.

For the moment, we are not doing it bareback and are finding other ways to make the other person feel special. Of course, this might not last forever, but that is also personally not what matters to me, but rather that we are both where we want to be and are learning to be more communicative, which, in my opinion, is hard, per se, and can be harder the first time around poly relationships.

We are both working on our needs, how to communicate them etc., etc. And we're also working on ways to get to know each other's partners, which we are thinking might help the situation.

Either way, thanks a lot! We'll see where this goes.

 

[Magdlyn]

Dear all, thank you for sharing your take on it and for the many insights.

Welcome back, Mimmi! Glad to get an update from you. (Your thread was bumped by a spam bot. I wonder if that brought it back to your attention. lol. Silver lining to spam, if so.)

Civ and I are still together and both feel very strongly about each other and our relationship. Talking about what happened made us tighter, as we soon discovered we hadn’t been as explicit as we had thought/hoped, regarding our expectations, fears, desires, and so on.

For the moment, we are not doing it bareback and are finding other ways to make the other person feel special. Of course, this might not last forever, but that is also personally not what matters to me, but rather that we are both where we want to be and are learning to be more communicative, which, in my opinion, is hard, and can be harder the first time around in poly relationships.

The concept of "specialness" is not often addressed on the board here, in a polyamory context, since we often have two or three people as romantic partners. But it is worth examining. What is "special," anyway? Why do some people focus on feeling special, and others never give it a thought? Does going bareback indicate "specialness" or a hierarchy? Or should the health/safer-sex factor take priority?

How important is a hierarchy? Going back to older posts on here, from the early 2010s, hierarchy seemed to be a more important, even volatile topic than it is nowadays. Are poly folk becoming less insecure in their poly for other reasons, so not needing to feel like a "primary" or "special" to feel secure?

Is Civ using condoms with the other gf too? (She needs a nickname.) Does she have other partners? Are you still seeing Pov and using condoms with him? Does he have other partners he is using condoms with? Is anyone else dating others/having one-night stands on a regular basis?

Does Pov have one-night stands (or more?), but considers them not special, and you as the only special one?

We are both working on our needs, how to communicate them, etc., and working on ways also to get to know each other's partners, which we are thinking might help the situation.

So have you not met his (former ex, now gf) yet at all, and Civ has not met Pov yet? Do you all live near each other, or is there some long-distance stuff happening? How will meeting each other's OSOs "help the situation"? What is this "situation"? Is there jealousy or envy happening? Something else?

 

[Mimmi]

Dear Magdlyn,

Thanks for adding new insights and questions. I am glad to have received all this feedback, and discovered this platform in the first place. Hope to slowly find my way around it.

Brief clarification: Civ has a partner (Musy) he'd been dating around a year before dating me. We met a couple times, but it never felt intentional, and at the time Civ and Musy were still labeling their thing. He did mess up a couple of times when talking about me to her, and other way round. This didn't necessarily help feelings of jealousy on my and Musy's sides. However, he is getting better at it. Musy and I have been curious and looking forward to see each other, as despite these incidents, we are positive about meeting each other more intentionally. The three of us are grabbing a drink this weekend!

Also, in regards to the questions you pose, Civ and I are using protection all the time, and have put the conversation on pause (we agreed on this) in regards to doing it bareback, as with other aspects of our relationship, it might change in time. However, that moment was important, as we both realised we had taken many things for granted. In fact, we find ourselves (now) more on the same page than we did some time ago. We are doing check-ins often and sharing new experiences. This is also because I have been more reassuring, more aware of my desires, and at communicating them (before breaking agreements). I believe he is feeling more safe in the relationship and thus drawing less comparisons.

Moreover, recently I had a big celebration, which meant that all the people I am going out with (Civ, Pov, and Dix) spent a lot of time together with my other friends and amongst themselves. Also, Civ and Dix getting to know each other better, and Civ is seeing Pov as less as a threat.

Overall, this does not mean that I ever stopped reflecting on what it means to feel special, if it can come without comparisons and all. On this we might have different perceptions.

Anyway, I am here for other new doubts: the sustainability and how to handle the relationship with Dix.

Brief context: Dix and I started seeing each other around 8 months ago. We had some friends in common, but had seen each other only few times in group scenarios before going on a date. Already, on the first dates, we spent a lot of time together (which is unusual for me, especially in the past year, because 1) I came back to the "taking it slow" approach in dating, after having come out from a monogamous relationship which had started too quickly (see love bombing) and ended up with me being manipulated, cheated on; 2) there has to be a strong click for me to spend a whole night talking and feeling so (mentally) connected after so little time). This scared me a little.

Anyhow, from the start to now, we like and love each other a lot. However, this strong feeling of love and passion, as well as admiration and alignment in values, and desire of discouring each other, clashes with how we seem to deeply want to live our love. From the first moment, the other person proposed seeing each other very often, and came with declarations quite early, as well as planning trips, and so on. (After some time, I trusted and understood they weren't love bombing me. However, they are a very intense person, with positives and negatives.) They are non-monogamous, however, are yet unsure whether 1) they are poly and 2) they can sustain being in a poly dynamic.

These two points are legitimate. It is normal to change, not have answers, and also to try being in a situation, because maybe you align in theory with the principles, yet have difficulties with the application. I myself have some trouble at times. However, the situation is different, in so far as I am poly and chose to be, and have other partners. Dix doesn't anymore (they broke up not long ago), and even when they were in that relationship, they often diminished it, and drew comparisons.

The point for me is that even though I saw them spend good moments with Civ, and the jealousy for Pov doesn't always come out, and we are finding new ways to get to know each other, and support each other along the way and in our life achievements, difficulties and dreams, it seems to me that, at the end of the day, when we argue, the same topics come out. Their vision is: "If you love someone, you have to make compromises, you want to spend your time with them, and make them a priority." They are often scared that "me wanting to do many things and being open to many connections, makes me lose sight of what we have." Whereas, on my side, I have an idea and practice love very differently, as I told them from the start. (The reason for which at some point we slowed down because, for me, the rhythms weren't mine.)

I do believe in the fact that love is an act, and it often isn't easy and requires working on ourselves. However, lately, Dix has been saying a lot that they have been doing all this work on being in a dynamic that is not theirs. They have a lot of anger towards me, and feelings of insecurity.

At this point, I don't know how to go about it, given that I have been reassuring them more, and at the same time trusting more that they can tell me their feelings without me deciding for them, and thus also bringing difficult themes to the table. But at times, I feel like it might be wrong for both of us, if Dix often feels that my way of loving is not enough, like they would want to be more central, are jealous of other partners. This brings them to an outburst. Sometimes they feel a lot of anger (which, for me, is not always easy to deal with, given family trauma).

I feel like the only way to prove my love is to overstep my boundaries (aka spend more time or attention than I want, or restrict my liberties in other relationships), or else feel guilty for making this person suffer, and for being the one that is more firm with their needs.

Sorry for the confusion. The point for now is that I love Dix, and have seen great improvements on both sides. However, I am not sure this is enough. I believe that, even though poly is hard, and having Dix with anxious attachment (with, on the other side, anger issues) and on mine as a response to these (feeling of guilt and closing off), if it is this constant, maybe it does take away all the spontaneity. At the same time, I would like to avoid breaking things off, for the reason that I don't want to put the other in pain any longer, because that would be patronizing and wrong. I did it before.

So I would have to do it if this situation doesn't work for me. However, this is hard to say, given that I feel like a lot of the emotional labor on this is from the other person, who at times says they can't do it anymore, and other times ignores the issues.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Mimmi,

It sounds like there is a bit of a clash between how you see poly, and how Dix sees poly. I don't know if Dix could change his way of looking at things, he seems to be rather entrenched in his current viewpoint. I think you should continue to communicate with him, look for improvements, and try to determine if that is enough. Only you can decide, as you are the one in that situation.

Regards,
Kevin T.