asking for advice on monogamous relationship - acceptable here?

We understand the difference between gossip & warnings
IME, this is far from true. It's a pernicious myth that women share some sort of magical bond.

The potential mean-spiritedness of humans does not know gender (nor preference).

Trusting women qua women more than men qua men is either sexist or paranoid, & simply sets up a different style of abuse, NOT less.

To say again: sub rosa communication is an admission of powerlessness.

Claiming powerlessness as somehow empowering is NOT healthy.

Healthy people don't live in fear of confrontation.
 
Nobody's claiming a magical bond, just a good faith effort at harm minimization.
 
IME, this is far from true. It's a pernicious myth that women share some sort of magical bond.

The potential mean-spiritedness of humans does not know gender (nor preference).

Trusting women qua women more than men qua men is either sexist or paranoid, & simply sets up a different style of abuse, NOT less.

To say again: sub rosa communication is an admission of powerlessness.

Claiming powerlessness as somehow empowering is NOT healthy.

Healthy people don't live in fear of confrontation.

I don't know whether to say, Psst, your male privilege is showing, or, And this is why Bill Cosby has still not been convicted. So I'll say both.
 
To say again: sub rosa communication is an admission of powerlessness.

Claiming powerlessness as somehow empowering is NOT healthy.

Healthy people don't live in fear of confrontation.

To which I would say: we don't live in a vacuum. I'm a healthy person. My close friends, those I trust and bond with, are healthy people. Many of them are women. Some of them are men who've done the work of dismantling their own sexism. Many more of them are well-intentioned men who simply do not understand the realities of life for women. Some are trans, and have the unique experience of going through life with male privilege & suddenly losing its protection - or the reverse, having a woman's life experience & now gaining access to a world which formerly excluded them.

This is not about gender essentialism. This stuff is not hard-wired, but it is learned from our earliest days. Men face different challenges that I know nothing about. If a group of men carefully explained their life experiences to me, I'd listen, because it's outside of my realm of knowledge.

I will never know what it's like to personally experience racism. So I listen to those who do. POC develop survival skills that I will never need to know. To dismiss those tactics, or to deny that American culture makes those tactics necessary, is to deny their lived experience.

I don't live in fear of confrontation. As stated in an earlier post, I am often someone who directly addresses issues. But I live in a world in which men's voices are more respected and given more weight. I WANT it to be different, I WORK TOWARD that difference, but I cannot make it different through wishing alone, and I cannot make that difference without the active engagement of men. Sometimes, I get that support, and it's amazing. On many more occasions, I do not, and it's often not provided due to sheer ignorance of the gulf between our experiences, rather than malice. The intent is not to perpetuate harm, but the outcome is the same.

Women on this thread have explained how and why these survival tactics persist and are necessary. We are not placing ourselves in a powerless position. Rather, we acknowledge the power imbalance inherent in our current social system.
 
Last edited:
Again, I'm not sure why we are labeling someone with a pathology, when we are no experts, and we don't even know the man? I don't think that should even be the main focus; the OP is just asking if his past behavior is an absolute guarantee that he will continue this behavior. She didn't ask, "Do you think my boyfriend in a narcissist? Do you think he has borderline personality disorder?"

Clearly, there have been major issues with him in the past. NONE of us are in a position to determine exactly what is "wrong" with him. I'm not saying that those behaviors won't rear their ugly heads in the future; I'm just trying to say that people can and do change, if they are willing to do the work.

I have been on these boards for five years. The only thing that really bugs me here is that some people are quick to slap a label on someone, based only on a poster's narrative, and call it a day. This is irresponsible.

I am totally agreeing with this. Forget the psychological labels (unless it's Trump...lol) and focus on the behaviors and solutions.
 
While my behavior wasn't as bad as his, I was not always a well-rounded person. I was a serial monogamist. I rarely cheated during a monogamous relationship, but I would often leave it behind. In between relationships I was quite the womanizer. I guess I would call it semi-unethical non-monogamy. I didn't blatantly lie. I lied by omission. I avoided conversations dealing with other relationships. If something escalated I viewed it as temporary. Looking back I was pretty awful.

But I did change. I didn't change because I no longer enjoyed it. I changed because I met someone who was just that awesome. And she wanted monogamy. I admit I was a little disappointed, but that didn't matter. Eventually we evolved into non-monogamy so I can't say if it would have lasted like that forever, but we did monogamy for a very long time.

So yeah, people can change. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee it will stick. This relationship is pretty new. You are right to be cautious. Personally, I am a "the past is the past" kind of guy. My advice is to remain cautiously optimistic, with the realization that it could go south. If that mouse keeps gnawing then maybe you should break it off because that is not good for anyone, whether he is still a lying cheater or not.
 
On a positive note: Peter & I had a date last night. On our date, he mentioned that he and a few other kind male friends want to start a men's group. It would be a safe place for men to express emotion & vulnerability, and work through difficulties while feeling supported. No weed or alcohol intake allowed.

The fact that he is seeking other avenues for support & healing is enormously positive. I'm feeling cautiously optimistic, and steering my mouse toward a different granary.
 
update

I don't know that anyone was clamoring for an update on this thread, but nevertheless:

It's very clear to me now that my fear of Peter's past - fear of What May Be - was holding me back from enjoyment of What Is. "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants," and the honest discussions we've had since I "confessed" have been both clarifying and comforting.

I feel at peace with Peter's past & the changes he has made (or is in the process of making). He's still going to counseling, and has asked me to sit in on a session next month. He's no longer feeling inextricably bound to his worst behavior, and I'm no longer experiencing anxiety. I've been able to refocus on my work and use my brain for more interesting endeavors. Our relationship has steadily gone on as it has since it started: sweet, silly, respectful, and loving.

I don't doubt that we'll experience further challenges together, but I'm comfortable and confident in my choice of Peter as a partner. Thank you all again for your questions, advice, and input.
 
Hi mostlymonogamish, thanks for that update. It's encouraging to hear that your relationship with Peter is going well. I have a feeling that will probably continue to be the case.
 
Hi again,

It's always great to hear an update. :) Feel free to start a section in the blogs part of the forum. I know I'll be following your story.

I wish you and Peter the stability and contentment you both desire in each other.

Kind thoughts,
Shaya.
 
Surprising possibly no one except myself, a little, I found out that Peter was exchanging sexts and naked pictures with other women over the course of our relationship.

We'd been planning to move in together next month, and had been talking quite seriously of marriage. We've both met each others' families. Our day to day was happy, loving, and good. It was, quite honestly, a great relationship, one in which we both felt supported, stable, appreciated, fulfilled. I cannot properly express how happy I was, every day, to be sharing my life with this man.

But I see now that this won't really change until or unless Peter is ready to do the work. He's still seeing a counselor, but never mentioned this to the counselor, nor did he disclose it to me. He's remorseful, tearful, and begging me to stay, which is difficult for me to see. I love him deeply, I see how he's hurting. But I didn't cause it, and I can't change it. He chose cheating on our agreements over the relationship, and I'm not hearing the kind of self-reflection I need to be hearing.

Thank y'all for your advice in the past. I am heeding that advice, respecting and loving myself, and choosing to end this relationship. It's awful, and I am so very angry and heartbroken, but it's the only logical choice.
 
Ah alas, mostlymonogamish, that is depressing to hear. You certainly gave him a fair chance, he needs to do much more self-reflection if he is ever going to have meaningful relationships in the future. I think that his lying to his counselor would be the last straw for me.

I hope you can begin the process of healing.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I didn't cause it, and I can't change it. He chose cheating on our agreements over the relationship, and I'm not hearing the kind of self-reflection I need to be hearing.

Thank y'all for your advice in the past. I am heeding that advice, respecting and loving myself, and choosing to end this relationship.

I'm sorry this happened.

I am glad you are getting you out of this situation ASAP.

Because you are right. You did not cause it, you cannot cure it, and if you are not getting what you need in this relationship after all this time?

Best not to marry. Best to part ways.

Galagirl
 
But he's had no practice in honesty until he met you.



So you are right to be wary of being dumped abruptly again. In my opinon, you're involved with a liar, who could be a sociopath. They are masters at pretending to feel normal feelings of love and caring, but it's all an act. Looking right into your eyes and lying to your face, so sweetly and convincingly? That's what they do.


RED FLAG! You heard multiple stories of his lying and cheating, and when you discussed it with Peter, you were not comforted. You were still alarmed.


Keeping a journal about his lying and cheating, even if he claims to be self hating to have done it, is a way out of his boredom. Narcissists are easily bored. They have a deep abyss of nothingness inside. They USE people to allay their boredom, idealising a new lover, until they get bored with her too. Then she is demoted and discarded for a new model. He will find some other new chick in your biking community. My fear is he uses the community as a habitat for new prey.

He is "comfortable" lying, he is selfish, he plays people. Why do you not see, he is probably playing you now? Others have tried to warn you. You're taken in by his ability to act normal. It's an act. He can't love.



So he says. It's a red flag that you're only 9 months into this, and have had MANY conversations about his former lies and cheating. Of course he's laid himself bare. He probably gets a thrill out of telling you how badly he treated others, and yet there you are, a sitting duck, trying to trust him.


Read up on narcissists. They are invariable charming, often good looking, sexy as hell, etc., etc. They start out being so attentive. Chatting online or texting a lot. Nice dates. Flowers. Compliments. You feel like you've found the perfect man. Until he gets bored. This can take a varying amount of time, usually it's when he feels he's well and truly hooked you. I don't think he feels he has yet, so he's "going to therapy" to further gain your trust. I question whether he really is going...


Your experience of him as a great person is just too much in conflict with what you've heard about his immediate past. Just before you he was a lying slut. Now suddenly he's going to be all honest and true? Hmph.


Go ahead and tell him you looked at his journal. He might've left it lying around as bait anyway, to make you seem the bad guy so he can use that against you when the lying and gaslighting and fights begin.

Please check out this website and forum.

https://www.psychopathfree.com/

That's the main page. Go read at the forum and see hundreds of stories like your own.

Read the articles here

https://www.psychopathfree.com/articles/

Which tell of warning signs and red flags about how to spot a narcissist.

Here is a sample article.

https://www.psychopathfree.com/articles/why-sociopaths-idealize-and-devalue-people.370/

Top 7 ways to spot a narcissist

https://www.psychopathfree.com/articles/top-7-ways-to-spot-a-sociopath-psychopath-or-narcissist.342/

10 warning signs you're dealing with a narcissist

https://www.psychopathfree.com/arti...ith-a-sociopath-narcissist-or-psychopath.340/

30 red flags you're with a narc

https://www.psychopathfree.com/arti...ith-a-sociopath-narcissist-or-psychopath.340/

Unlike here, it is geared towards the type of person your SO seems to be. If I seem so sure he is a sociopath, it is because I was with one for 2 1/2 years... I have learned to look out for red flags. I was so hurt by how I was treated. They can seem like the perfect person, until suddenly they start to pull away. My guy was a self described poly guy, but it didn't prevent him from unethical behavior and a lack of real humanity.


This. All of this. Especially the baiting

I was with a sociopath for 2 months; the recover took WAY longer. Best connection of my life— until I realized it was one sided, asked for different, and was dumped with a heaping of revenge.

I did not read past here.

I think you are going to go for it anyways— because SOMETHING in it feels really good. (Which it WOULD if it were with a sociopath— but also with Mr. Right.

And what is life without risk?

And so I’m going to offer you the thing that kept our relationships short, and me not so devastated after— do not hesitate to speak up for your needs and wants and KNOW you have them and are entitled to the whole equality wheel. (dDuluth relationship model.) Mr. Right will stick around. Mr. Wrong will get tired and dump you, in the worst way possible (mine nearly cost ne my job)

And protect yourself by making sure you are doing what you need emotionally through this, in everyday decisions. Don’t get sucked into his version of reality; hold your own. Mr Right will respect,’appreciate, and reciprocate. Mr Wrong will get tired of having to be QUITE so devious.

I hope he’a mr. right.
 
I’m so sorry. Just read the last post— I should have before.

You weren’t wrong to try. And you were right to keep your self-respect.

He was practice. No one will pull that on you again, not in that way.

If it helps, the next relationship after the really bad one was extremely good- and I feel that I am on a different level now in what I look for. You are not doomed to repeat- in fact, I suspect thenoricess of trusting, then pulling out appropriately, will serve you well going forwards

But it hurts and sucks and I hope you heal well and quickly.
 
What's interesting is that there never were any fights, never was any devaluation. He treated me like a Queen, with devotion, kindness, respect, patience. He (seemingly) did the work on his end of the relationship, had difficult conversations with me, was kind to my parents, showed me off to his friends, formed better relationships with men, included me in his life as an equal partner. His male friends would tell me how glowingly he spoke of me. All of it felt good and positive and loving - I can't stress that enough. I know what bad relationships feel like! Until I discovered this, I'd been incredibly happy.

Again, I don't subscribe to the practice of internet diagnosis. He certainly does match some narcissistic traits, but most of them don't apply. I can only describe it as the most intense compartmentalization I've ever seen.

I'm not minimizing his actions - they were certainly enough for me to end the relationship. But I see his fierce desire for growth & change, and I also see that he probably thought he WAS changing. That these behaviors, limited as they were to the phone and not real life, were harmless. It only happened a few times. That kind of thinking is alien to me, but I can see his gears turning. He may not really understand why he does this - it may be akin to addiction.

The deal breaker for me is deliberate deception. I could've dealt with this behavior if he'd come to me with it at any point, or if he'd said he was chafing against our agreements. I can deal with almost anything, as long as I have the truth.
 
MostlyMonogamish,

I'm not going to "diagnose" this person with whom you were recently involved as a narcissist, per se, though I have studied some psychology and he does indeed appear to tick many of the boxes.

What I will say is that I've been through a similar experience - and am still with the person after three years or so. In MY case sex and other women were NOT the main issue - however, the common denominators were:

- A superficially "perfect" start to the relationship, in which I was clearly put on a pedestal by the person. (He declared "love" pretty early on, yet seemed to find the traits we had in common, and any synchronities/coincidences between us more of a draw than being interested in getting to know the real ME and our differences.)

- Followed by mutual female friends (in my case, a singular friend) "warning" me off my partner, claiming he was an addict (which I knew) and a narcissist, who was easily bored and always chasing the "new and shiny". I was warned that he would never truly commit to me.

- While I heeded these warnings (with a grain of salt), the "good times" lasted many many months, with no real hint that I'd been sucked into a trap. My partner appeared to truly change his ways, went into rehab, and claimed I'd "saved" him.

- He never did "devalue" me verbally, cheat or leave... however after eight months or so, the NRE appeared to wear off big time and he appeared more distant and uncommunicative. He also lost interest in the sexual side of our relationship. He still regularly declared his love, but I just KNEW something was amiss. I could feel it.

**********

I knew I hadn't done anything "wrong", but I started to question everything... his words, his motivations, if he was bored, if he had lost interest and was just "too kind" to say. I wondered if there was another woman. I wondered about his health. I wondered - and questioned him specifically about how he was coping with being in recovery - only to be reassured time and again he was under control. I was made to feel stupid, untrusting, a nag...

Eventually I DID start questioning myself and my own sanity. Was I addicted to this person? Should I break up with him - even though he still loved me and nothing was "wrong" other than the fact that I wasn't getting my needs for communication and sex met anymore? My mental health took a dive.

Turns out, he WAS lying... had been for a long time. He'd relapsed and hadn't told me. It was plainly obvious, of course, but he had so many "legit" reasons for his behaviour: school, ill health, etc. There is nothing worse than being made to feel YOU are the crazy, distrustful one when someone ELSE is at fault for weaving a web of lies.

My partner and I have been through all that ^ and are coming out the other side, finally. But I DO NOT recommend staying with someone you KNOW from the get-go is a callous liar who'll say anything to further their own agenda.

There is a chance your (ex) partner may truly change, MostlyMonogamish, and may indeed be doing the work to better himself via therapy, researching, atoning for past "sins", etc.

That does NOT mean you need to be his guinea pig, if you feel at all uncertain or unsafe! Let him do the work on himself alone. Considering you took many years to recover from a previous bad ending to a relationship, I feel it's too risky to give this man the benefit of the doubt after only nine months. *I* did - because my guy was just SO convincing, and hadn't (yet) made a misstep until we'd been together 8-9 months - and although I still love and adore him, I would never want anyone to go down the road I did if it could be avoided.
 
Diagnosis is only a list of skills and traits present and missing, anyways. Nothing makes someone undatable unless it doesn’r mesh with you. Partners or narcissists can be happy in their relationship, if they fit well.

Sounds like a near miss that made you very happy for a while. That’s a pretty good ending. I’m so sorry the deception happened, though :(
 
I don't want to take up this board's time further on an issue that doesn't deal with polyamory. That said, I think that honesty, vulnerability, and relationship agreements are topics which are germane to any relationship style.

In other relationships I've had, the messages themselves might not have been an issue. The sticking point for me was that we'd laid all this groundwork, had endless conversations about expressing needs, establishing clear and healthy boundaries, etc. I'd told him that I didn't mind flirting without intent, or mind him having female friends - I'm not jealous or controlling by nature. What DID feel uncomfortable was spending time with female friends with whom he shared a sexual charge. It felt as though (despite what he and I had agreed to) he drew the line at physical interaction, but craved the validation that sexting and flirting with intent provided. It felt as though he liked to keep all the doors open to possible future interactions.

I put in a lot of work on my end to rebuild trust and feel comfortable - both in creating a safe space for difficult conversations, and in asking for reassurance and validation when I felt I needed those things. I was nervous about a group bike ride to the local nude beach, as one of his ex-lovers was attending, but I got over it & enjoyed myself. After that ride, he got in touch with her to express how much he missed their physical intimacy. Another thing he didn't share with me (and again, another thing which wouldn't have bothered me much if he'd been open about it. The non-disclosure right after I'd expressed nervousness about her presence & been reassured that their connection was long over: that felt as though my concerns were being deliberately downplayed).

At one point, he expressed a fear: he'd been out for drinks with friends, and a cute woman had chatted him up. He said if he'd been alone, or a few more drinks in, he probably would've taken her home. This was not a comforting thing to hear, but it actually served to increase my trust in him, because that vulnerability led to greater shared intimacy. We talked together about whether or not he was struggling with monogamy, if he wanted or needed a change, and he doubled down on his commitment to me.

So, finding out that he was getting off to the nude text exchange with his coworker on his birthday, while I was buying him flowers and planning a sweet romantic date? That was the last straw. I know it wasn't about me, he's said he wasn't thinking about me at all, that it was fun & hot & then was popped in the attic, never to be seen again.

I know that many people find integrity, introspection, and self-work to be difficult. It's okay if he's not there right now. But I can't partner with someone who chooses to deliberately deceive me. The actions themselves may have been on the small side, but they speak to someone who chooses not to be honest. I don't choose that for myself.

Thank you to all who offered support or advice. Your input is greatly appreciated.
 
He was unwilling or unable to give up nonmonogamy, and he was unwilling or unable to be honest with you about that. Breaking up is never easy, but in this case you made the right call. Hang in there.
 
Back
Top