Boundaries violated….how do I trust again?

my pleasure 😉

good / great start IMO. Is she ok with dealing with some consequences as a result ?



To me it’s about judgment and or (the lack there of ) and being confident in your partners judgment stay safe emotional and physicall.


Good luck moving forward 😉
Thanks again for engaging me where I am. She is dealing with consequences, and is 100% taking responsibility. I’m doing my best to deal with my emotions so we can heal and so I don’t make thing’s toxic.
 
Hi coffeeandconvo,

You seem to be very sincere about wanting to forgive your partner, and trust her again. My initial advice would be for the two of you to see a poly-friendly counselor. Then, I would suggest you reset your relationship back to zero -- the two of you will be strictly monogamous for a while, until you can work this out. Let her prove that she can be trusted when everything is set to zero. Then, after you have rebuilt trust in that area, venture back into polyamory little by little, with lots of rules so she can prove that she can be trusted every little step of the way. After you have rebuilt trust in that area, then you can wash away some of those rules, and become freely poly. Just don't try to do it all at once. Do it a little at a time.

Such is my initial advice,
Kevin T.
This was my instinct and we are already moving that direction. Thank you for your response.
 
Thank you! This was what I was needing to hear. Thank you for engaging me where I am at the moment!

Most welcome. It took me a bit to figure out where you actually were in the moment. There was a lot of material.
She is dealing with consequences, and is 100% taking responsibility. I’m doing my best to deal with my emotions so we can heal and so I don’t make thing’s toxic.

I'm glad she's taking personal responsibility.

You plan to talk to a couple counselor sounds good.

The only other thing I can think of in terms of how I like to calm down? I don't know if this would help you.

I don't really like sitting meditation or listening to things like "Imagine you are a sitting on a beach" and similar.

I'd rather just go to the actual beach.

I prefer moving meditation. That's why I like activities like gardening, or drumming, or walking or even cleaning. My brain only has to think about 1 thing -- digging or weeding, or planting. Listening to a song and doing the drum pattern. Putting one foot in front of the other til I get to the end of the walk. Getting through to the end of the dirty dishes.

Both of you sound like you want to work through this. Might consider only talking about this at couple counselor appointments for a while though. To reduce both emotional flooding and possible foot dragging. Like there's a time to deal with this and move it forward.

But it cannot be THIS all the time 24/7 either.

It's ok for you to set some personal boundaries around your time, emotional energy, and mental energy.
 
I guess I still don't understand how your partner broke your trust. At all. Coffee, you said you didn't care if she had sex or not. She insisted on telling you she wasn't going to have sex. But she did have sex. If you didn't care if she did or not, why is this so devastating? You say it's not the sex. OK. You say you're extremely upset because it took her a few minutes (OK, several minutes) to tell you that she actually did have sex, and exactly how the sex went down. So what? Why is that even surprising? She seemingly felt inwardly guilty, ashamed and/or embarrassed that she'd changed her mind about having sex. So it took her a few minutes to tell you how it happened. I don't see that she broke YOUR trust.

It seems like you thought she might get carried away in the heat of the moment. And she did. If this happened to me, at most I'd have an "I told you so" moment. I wouldn't be devastated at her having a hard time sharing with me that she'd changed her mind. I wouldn't consider breaking up over this, not for a moment. I am not judging you for having this strong reaction. I just don't get it!

I just don't see how this incident alone negates the prior 8 years of trust, unless there are deeper issues you are holding back from sharing here (as you hint at). In that case, I can see you might be upset about those deeper issues, and this specific issue (about her not telling you the entire truth immediately) is not the real issue.
 
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I guess I still don't understand how your partner broke your trust. At all. Coffee, you said you didn't care if she had sex or not. She insisted on telling you she wasn't going to have sex. But she did have sex. If you didn't care if she did or not, why is this so devastating? You say it's not the sex. OK. You say you're extremely upset because it took her a few minutes (OK, several minutes) to tell you that she actually did have sex, and exactly how the sex went down. So what? Why is that even surprising? She seemingly felt inwardly guilty, ashamed and/or embarrassed that she'd changed her mind about having sex. So it took her a few minutes to tell you how it happened. I don't see that she broke YOUR trust.

It seems like you thought she might get carried away in the heat of the moment. And she did. If this happened to me, at most I'd have an "I told you so" moment. I wouldn't be devastated at her having a hard time sharing with me that she'd changed her mind. I wouldn't consider breaking up over this, not for a moment. I am not judging you for having this strong reaction. I just don't get it!

I just don't see how this incident alone negates the prior 8 years of trust, unless there are deeper issues you are holding back from sharing here (as you hint at). In that case, I can see you might be upset about those deeper issues, and this specific issue (about her not telling you the entire truth immediately) is not the real issue.
Magdlyn,
To be honest, there were factors that I didn’t share because at the time they didn’t seem relevant.
1. The couple was predatory (in the unicorn hunting way) and I had been vocal with her about my worries. The male had seemed to be controlling the situation and had bypassed an agreement between my wife and him (they had agreed my wife and his would have a date separately and he changed that by asking my wife to join him and his wife for sex on the next date a few days after the agreement) This concerned me because at this point my wife had had zero communication with his wife and for all intents and purposes didn’t know for fact she existed. The couple also did things that were not respectful of her boundaries in the situation (her job to police that but lack of respect for boundaries that are clearly stated is a flag to me).
2. There had been a couple of instances involving this couple prior that she hadn’t been completely up front about and had later corrected the record…..nothing big mind you, but the lack of transparency was a flag and I couldn’t understand it as some of the omitted information (dates, locations and who was going to be there) caused safety concerns with me as she was just meeting this couple and we have a checkin process for safety reasons when we meet new people.
3. I actually worked through how I felt and came to a similar conclusion as you myself.
a. There were several minor trust issues that led to me over-reacting to the last one.
b. It was HER boundary not MINE and for some reason (I’m working on that, it’s new) I took ownership of it when I shouldn’t have.
c. We talked through things last night and at some point my perspective changed from seeing this as a betrayal to realizing it was a couple of mistakes (the biggest of which was her crossing her own boundary which really had no impact on me).
d. The untruths are the real concern so we talked about why they happened. It boils down to she’s growing. She has up to this point relied on me as her “safety net” in her exploration. Meaning, she has come to me and over communicated things to get my opinion on people. She is socially awkward and sometimes misses obvious social cues, so she has always leaned on me to help her read situations. With this couple she wanted to do it alone and rather than communicate that (she probably didn’t consciously choose that) her actions came across as shady.
e. It was never my plan to trash 8 years over one incident. I was feeling some pretty deep emotions and it took a couple days to sort through them.

Thanks for your reply
 
Most welcome. It took me a bit to figure out where you actually were in the moment. There was a lot of material.


I'm glad she's taking personal responsibility.

You plan to talk to a couple counselor sounds good.

The only other thing I can think of in terms of how I like to calm down? I don't know if this would help you.

I don't really like sitting meditation or listening to things like "Imagine you are a sitting on a beach" and similar.

I'd rather just go to the actual beach.

I prefer moving meditation. That's why I like activities like gardening, or drumming, or walking or even cleaning. My brain only has to think about 1 thing -- digging or weeding, or planting. Listening to a song and doing the drum pattern. Putting one foot in front of the other til I get to the end of the walk. Getting through to the end of the dirty dishes.

Both of you sound like you want to work through this. Might consider only talking about this at couple counselor appointments for a while though. To reduce both emotional flooding and possible foot dragging. Like there's a time to deal with this and move it forward.

But it cannot be THIS all the time 24/7 either.

It's ok for you to set some personal boundaries around your time, emotional energy, and mental energy.
Thank you for hanging in there with me.:). My reply below to Mag explains a bit more. But I wanted to thank you for replying and giving your time to help me with my issue.
 
Sounds like you continue to calm and sort things with partner.

Like....
  • Which of this is my stuff? My responsibility only?
  • Which of this is her stuff? Her responsibility only?
  • Which of this is our shared stuff? Our responsibilities?
I can see why you'd be worried about some unicorn hunting couple.

I can also see why you'd be worried if she often uses you for a "safety net" and is developing her own "bullshit radar" rather than relying on you to see for her.

It's good she wants to stop oversharing and stand more on her own two feet.

But then there's the learning space right? Where she's kind of a newbie on that, and maybe easy to fool. And she's gonna take some dings. Make mistakes in judgement, get carried away, all of that.

You don't have to take her mistakes on board for yourself. But yeah. It can be worrisome.
 
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Magdlyn,
To be honest, there were factors that I didn’t share because at the time they didn’t seem relevant.
Thanks for providing more details. It sounds like you and your wife (let's call her Abby), have made some good progress into dealing with the deeper issues of growth, self-knowledge, a retreat from codependency, etc.

I named your wife Abby to give her space as her own person, not just her relationship to you. Let's call the others John and Jessica that reason and for clarity.
1. John and Jessica were predatory (in the unicorn-hunting way). I had been vocal with her about my worries. John had seemed to be controlling the situation and had bypassed an agreement he'd made with Abby. (They had agreed that Abby and Jessica would have a date separately. He changed that by asking Abby to join him and Jessica for sex on the next date, a few days after they made the agreement) This concerned me because at this point Abby had had zero communication with Jessica and for all intents and purposes didn’t know for a fact that she existed. The couple also did things that were not respectful of Abby's boundaries in the situation. (It is her job to police that, but lack of respect for boundaries that are clearly stated is a flag to me.)
2. There had been a couple of instances involving this couple prior that Abby hadn’t been completely up front about and had later corrected the record…..nothing big, mind you, but the lack of transparency was a flag. I couldn’t understand it as some of the omitted information (dates, locations and who was going to be there) caused safety concerns for me, as Abby was just meeting this couple and we have a check-in process for safety reasons when we meet new people.
3. I actually worked through how I felt and came to a similar conclusion as you, myself.
a. There were several minor trust issues that led to me over-reacting to the last one.
b. It was Abby's boundary, not MINE...
OK, we agree. This clears up a lot of confusion. You were taking on her boundary as your own.
and for some reason (I’m working on that, it’s new) I took ownership of it when I shouldn’t have.
That's big. This will make independent dating much smoother.
c. We talked through things last night. At some point, my perspective changed from seeing this as a betrayal, to realizing it was a couple of mistakes (the biggest of which was her crossing her own boundary, which really had no impact on me).
d. The untruths are the real concern, so we talked about why they happened. It boils down to this: she’s growing. She has, up to this point, relied on me as her “safety net” in her exploration. She has come to me and over-communicated things, to get my opinions about people. She is socially awkward and sometimes misses obvious social cues, so she has always leaned on me to help her read situations. With this couple, she wanted to do it alone, and rather than communicate that (she probably didn’t consciously choose that) her actions came across as shady.
e. It was never my plan to trash 8 years over one incident. I was feeling some pretty deep emotions and it took a couple days to sort through them.

Thanks for your reply.
You're welcome.

Maybe soon we'll hear about what Abby's future plans are with John and Jessica. Are they too predatory, i.e,. aggressive and pushy, despite lack of proof of good sexual health? Does Abby know males can have yeast infections without symptoms and pass them to women? Are J&J careless with their sexual health, in general, and therefore not good people to have sex with?

Will Abby want to reconsider dating/fucking couples and stick to one-on-one scenarios so she can feel more informed about each person and not in the dark about intentions (like who is going to be there, who is going to have sex with whom), and not ganged up on, etc.?
 
Thanks for providing more details. It sounds like you and your wife (let's call her Abby), have made some good progress into dealing with the deeper issues of growth, self-knowledge, a retreat from codependency, etc.

I named your wife Abby to give her space as her own person, not just her relationship to you. Let's call the others John and Jessica that reason and for clarity.

OK, we agree. This clears up a lot of confusion. You were taking on her boundary as your own.

That's big. This will make independent dating much smoother.

You're welcome.

Maybe soon we'll hear about what Abby's future plans are with John and Jessica. Are they too predatory, i.e,. aggressive and pushy, despite lack of proof of good sexual health? Does Abby know males can have yeast infections without symptoms and pass them to women? Are J&J careless with their sexual health, in general, and therefore not good people to have sex with?

Will Abby want to reconsider dating/fucking couples and stick to one-on-one scenarios so she can feel more informed about each person and not in the dark about intentions (like who is going to be there, who is going to have sex with whom), and not ganged up on, etc.?
Thanks for the follow up. Abby is not seeing J&J again. There is too much history there and the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. She and I are going to examine our growth together as well as re-evaluate our expectations and agreements to be sure they are necessary and realistic. We are seeing our counselor today to work through some of the after effects (anger, guilt, shame) we are both feeling.
I am seeing this as growing pains and while it was somewhat unsettling I’m hoping we are better for having had the experience.
 
Thanks for providing more details. It sounds like you and your wife (let's call her Abby), have made some good progress into dealing with the deeper issues of growth, self-knowledge, a retreat from codependency, etc.

I named your wife Abby to give her space as her own person, not just her relationship to you. Let's call the others John and Jessica that reason and for clarity.

OK, we agree. This clears up a lot of confusion. You were taking on her boundary as your own.

That's big. This will make independent dating much smoother.

You're welcome.

Maybe soon we'll hear about what Abby's future plans are with John and Jessica. Are they too predatory, i.e,. aggressive and pushy, despite lack of proof of good sexual health? Does Abby know males can have yeast infections without symptoms and pass them to women? Are J&J careless with their sexual health, in general, and therefore not good people to have sex with?

Will Abby want to reconsider dating/fucking couples and stick to one-on-one scenarios so she can feel more informed about each person and not in the dark about intentions (like who is going to be there, who is going to have sex with whom), and not ganged up on, etc.?
Another update of sorts. Having shifted my perspective, I can see logically why I reacted the way I did, but now seeing this through a different lens I’m struggling with the guilt of my actions as they are invalid through the updated lens. (I hope this makes sense). My partner and I are working together and I have no doubt we will be fine. My question is how do I view my actions through my current lens and show grace to those actions and emotions as they weren’t incorrect so much as they were based on a flawed perspective?

I hope all of that makes sense!
 
I don't generally focus too much on my past mistakes. When you know better, you do better. It sounds like you and Abby are pretty entangled. It's easy to get overly entangled in a romantic love relationship. Sex and other intimacies can make us get too dependent on each other. This can get to be a bit too much closeness for your own well-being (and hers). So, you're learning to establish boundaries, to see where you are actually independent human beings with issues and desires of your own.

Apologize, treat her kindly, reassure her of your love in ways she can feel it (love languages she speaks). Forgive yourself. Then, move on, determined to do better. The only way we learn is by making mistakes and doing better the next time. That's life. That's the hero's journey. Get help, get good teachers, practice good behaviors. You'll stumble again. You'll get up again. Your life will get richer and more fulfilling and you might even end up inspiring others with your newfound knowledge and skills.
 
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