Boundaries violated….how do I trust again?

[coffeeandconvo]

So my partner recently violated two major boundaries in our relationship.

1. We always set an expectation before a date if we’ve never been intimate with the meta and agree to communicate this as necessary with the meta.

A. Sex is on the table for this date
B. Sex is not on the table for this date.

2. If sex happens on a date (with someone we have not been intimate with prior) We tell our primary during our reconnect/recap.

My partner explicitly stated sex (including oral sex) was off the table for this date (with a m/f couple) as there were STD results outstanding AND she was not sure if the chemistry with the female. She did say she was going to allow for some making out to make sure the chemistry felt right between herself and the female as she felt a little unsure. Full disclosure here, I double checked with her regarding sex and made sure to tell her that it didn’t have to be off the table unless that’s really what she wanted.

During our reconnection after the date she was telling me how much she enjoyed them and that the chemistry was great. I asked if there was anything she felt I needed to know at which time she expressed that the female had given the male oral sex while she watched and achieved orgasm (nothing unusual or outside our boundaries for this date) Several minutes later we were just laying together and having small talk when she got quiet and said, “I made a mistake” and then admitted she had given the male oral sex to orgasm. Further questioning discovered that the male and female had disrobed in the living room and invited her upstairs…..she had followed and undressed herself and eventually given the male oral sex.

So boundary 1 was having sex. Boundary two was lying about it.

Caveats here: we have been poly for two years and have dated together and separately with zero issues like this.

I’m struggling two days later to forgive and I’m feeling like I can never trust my partner again. She’s my person and I love her deeply. I don’t want to end things and I’m hoping someone can help shine a light on the path I need to take in order to heal and hopefully join her again on our journey (mono/poly/whatever we choose) if/when she finds her way back to me.

 

[Evie]

I recently saw a video that said forgiveness is not a choice, it's a byproduct of the healing process. I am pretty sure I concur with that. Therefore, healing would then seem like the natural thing to focus on.

Clearly you didn't make any decisions within yourself about what you would do if an agreement was broken. This rather suggests that they aren't boundaries - boundaries delineate how you do want to be treated and how you don't want to be treated. Only you can then do what you have agreed with yourself that you will do if someone crosses your boundary. For example, if someone I'm seeing leaves me a drunken, angry voice message, I will tell them that I will not tolerate being spoken to like that. If they do it again, I will de-escalate the relationship/distance myself emotionally until I am confident that there will not be a recurrence. If they do it again, I will end the relationship and block them. Those are my agreements with myself to ensure that I do not end up in an abusive relationship (again). So, considering your issue is unsafe sex, you could agree with yourself that you will not have sex with your partner again until they have had the necessary waiting period and tests. This is so you don't end up with an STI. It's taking care of you.

Perhaps you need to know why now, after two years, she made this mistake and broke your relationship agreements (was it simply being swept up in the moment? Was it that the couple were a bit pushy and she was feeling too polite to just leave so went along with it? Was it that she feels that this agreement has run its course but didn't feel able to renegotiate with you? Was she feeling reckless with her boundary of, "I will not have sex with new people until I have seen their negative test results"? Was this ever actually her own boundary, or was it only a relationship agreement in your relationship? Something else?). So, if you need information about her thought process you could tell yourself, "I will ask for what I need to understand why this happened." Approach with curiosity, not condemnation. Then you could say, "I will take the waiting time for test results to process this information and determine my boundaries going forward." De-escalate the relationship to non-sexual for that length of time (and for any antibiotic time needed). Or use condoms until the negative result if you find yourself ready to have sex with each other again.

You could also tell your partner that you would like to renegotiate your relationship agreements and work on your own boundaries (knowing what you will do, not just with her but with anyone you're dating). How to make the new agreements is up to you, but honestly, I suggest that agreement one is unnecessary and you would be better off just having sex "on the table" at all times, even with new metas. What is the benefit of knowing this ahead of time? What purpose does it serve? Are you actively nurturing couple's privilege still? You may also want to agree to share less detailed information and allow the metas their privacy.

You clearly aren't wanting to nuke the entire relationship over this mistake and temporary lie of omission, that was then rectified by her. So be a little patient with yourself. Two days isn't actually a long time, you seem to be trying to hurry yourself. "Never" is catastrophizing. Why are you doing both of these things? Is there other stuff going on in your relationship that you didn't write here? Is it time to get it all out on the table with your partner? Do you need a couple's therapist to help this process? Or do you just need to give yourself time to be mad about it and then, when that emotion isn't so intense, start the reconciliation process?

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Why try and make it so awkward to act on your sexual feelings? It was oral sex so the risks of STI transmission are tiny. It seems like this rule doesn't work for you.

 

[coffeeandconvo]

Why try and make it so awkward to act on your sexual feelings? It was oral sex so the risks of STI transmission are tiny. It seems like this rule doesn't work for you.

I think you missed the point. These were HER boundaries….not mine…..she set them, we agreed to them, and then she violated them, and then lied about it. But thanks for the sensitive reply. I came here looking for constructive advice on how to get past a betrayal of trust not a snarky “ur rule is dumb” comment.

 

[Evie]

I think you missed the point. These were HER boundaries….not mine…..she set them, we agreed to them, and then she violated them, and then lied about it. But thanks for the sensitive reply. I came here looking for constructive advice on how to get past a betrayal of trust not a snarky “ur rule is dumb” comment.

I think you've seen what you want to see...there is no snark from SEASONED. And certainly not a "ur rule is dumb" comment. [Edit: yet.]

I will reiterate it: It seems like this rule doesn't work for you (or in this case, last weekend, for her, even if she first suggested it.) Time to renegotiate. I'd said the same thing.

Part 1A and 1B definitely restricts the ability to change one's mind. Therefore it does make it awkward to spontaneously act on sexual feelings. Remember the value of curiosity? Asking why you've opted for awkwardness isn't snark, it isn't insensitivity, it is constructive if you let it be.

 

[GalaGirl]

Maybe take a time out to cool off and think about things?

Then reflect when cooler headed.

Is this a case of the agreement making the problem in the first place?

What is the purpose of all these before the date/after the date check ins? To me it's kinda of micromanage-y. Or micro-detailed.

You are poly. Can't it just be expected that sooner or later, there's going to be other partners? And sooner or later, sex will be shared? Do you need to review sex health practices and STI charts?

Would it be more practical to reframe the TIMING of agreement?

Why do you need to know before the date? Don't you REALLY need to know before you share sex again?

Like you both make it a practice to say "Since the last time time we shared sex, have there have been new people/changes in risk profile? Were condoms and safer sex practices used? On my side there was..."

This gives room for either one to be sponteanous on their dates with other people. While still being informed/informing before you share sex together again.

That way you can each decide to share sex together or hold off for labs or whatever you choose.

And skip this "before the date" and "right after the date" thing like insta-replay? Sometimes people may need time to themselves to rest, digest, and process on their own? Not come right home and jump into date processing.

It sounds like she was honest with you about making a mistake while still IN the check in process? If you react all "Liar! Betrayal!" at her because it took her a bit to gather herself to tell... How does this behavior inspire her to keep trying to be honest and talk to you? Or will it inspire fear and then keeping secrets and the very thing you do not want -- lies and betrayals?

This was the first time she's slipped up? What about this situation made it different if she normally can handle herself? Was the past single people encounters? And this was her first time navigating some kind of group sex experience so she lost her head? Was there a lot of drinking or drugs? Something else?

I think you missed the point. These were HER boundaries….not mine…..she set them, we agreed to them, and then she violated them, and then lied about it.

Is there space for people to change their minds?

How would you like to be told she's changed her mind? Or wants to renegotiate agreements?

If she's suggesting stuff you don't feel like doing? It's ok to say "Nah, I don't want to do that." Or "I prefer to deal with that a different way."

Esp if being this "micro" creates problems?

I’m struggling two days later to forgive and I’m feeling like I can never trust my partner again. She’s my person and I love her deeply. I don’t want to end things and I’m hoping someone can help shine a light on the path I need to take in order to heal and hopefully join her again on our journey (mono/poly/whatever we choose) if/when she finds her way back to me.

Could thank her for being honest. Apologize if you blew up.

And talk about making KEEPABLE shared agreements that are more realistic and rational.

You sound more upset about her setting expectations for X and then ending up at Y than the actual oral sex activities themselves. Is that true?

Maybe this "micro" date check in thing was reassuring at the start of the poly journey but now it's just been outgrown?

 

[Magdlyn]

I’m struggling two days later to forgive and I’m feeling like I can never trust my partner again. She’s my person and I love her deeply. I don’t want to end things and I’m hoping someone can help shine a light on the path I need to take in order to heal and hopefully join her again on our journey (mono/poly/whatever we choose) if/when she finds her way back to me.

The parts I've bolded seem like an over reaction. I don't see that she has gone away from you and needs to come back. She was more attracted to these people than she predicted. She decided to go ahead and have sex. She admitted that. I just don't find this to be a big deal. Like our other experienced members, I'd change the "rule," (if a rule is needed) to be, "I/we might have sex on any date I/we go on. And as long as I/we use safer sex practices, this is OK."

 

[coffeeandconvo]

The parts I've bolded seem like an over reaction. I don't see that she has gone away from you and needs to come back. She was more attracted to these people than she predicted. She decided to go ahead and have sex. She admitted that. I just don't find this to be a big deal. Like our other experienced members, I'd change the "rule," (if a rule is needed) to be, "I/we might have sex on any date I/we go on. And as long as I/we use safer sex practices, this is OK."

I don’t disagree with you that absolute statements are foolish…..I was emotional at the time. I am going to push back on the “rule” needs to go. The boundaries aren’t mine….they are HERS (I was obviously unclear on this). The communication prior to a date regarding sex being on the table…..She asked for that……the reconnection and recap time…..She asked for that. I personally prefer sex is always on the table and assumed. She asked for these things and I agreed to and honored them in all my separate interactions as well. The problem isn’t the “rule”. It’s that one person asked for it and then didn’t honor it. Not only did she betray my trust, she also disrespected me as a partner by requiring me to live within boundaries she felt comfortable breaking. And the lie wasn’t one of omission as someone stated. She literally volunteered to me that something completely different happened than what in reality happened. Without prompting I might add. When I asked her if there was anything I needed to know I was referencing the STI panels, partially because the female partner was recovering from a “yeast infection” which could have actually been a STI and they hadn’t produced updated STI panels which was a part of why my partner said she wasn’t going to have sex with them yet. I understand that obviously we need to do some work around these boundaries going forward. What I came looking for was some assistance with things I can do to get past a serious breach of trust. If this seems frivolous to you that’s fine, I understand. The sex isn’t the problem….we’ve shared partners and dated separately as well with no trust issues. I’m not looking for answers to “why” it happened or “how” it could have been avoided. Those are things she needs to address within herself and when the time is right we will discuss those and work through them. I was specifically looking for some ideas on how I get to a place I can hear her and start trusting again. If this isn’t the place for that conversation then I’ll accept that. I do appreciate those of you that have taken the time to offer some well thought out advice regarding our dynamic and will seriously consider your words moving forward.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Not only did she betray my trust, she also disrespected me as a partner by requiring me to live within boundaries she felt comfortable breaking.

So what I hear you saying is that you are much the same as us but decided to compromise your own way of doing things for her. Now she has realised why we do things this way because it just isn't realistic.

If this were me, and I had changed my usual way to accommodate her, I'd just point out that my way is (and always was) better and just remove the rule.

After all, we (me, you, Magdyln, others) don't do things this way because it's stupid. Now she knows that too.

The other choice is to waste time being mad at her for not keeping a stupid rule and probably destroy your relationship with a total overreaction to something you always knew was a stupid way of doing things.

 

[Evie]

You seem to still be having some difficulty with the difference between boundaries, agreements and rules. You said that they were "HER boundaries" but then talk about them like they were rules she forced upon you. And then you highlight that she breached your trust, which suggests that you took joint ownership of the rules and they became agreements.

I was specifically looking for some ideas on how I get to a place I can hear her and start trusting again.

Do you know anything about restorative justice? Not as is practiced in the justice system, but as is practiced in schools. This is where my original comment about curiosity came from. When a (young) person acts out, first there is a time out for all parties to take a break from any emotion that has arisen. We then ask them what was going on in their thoughts at the time. We choose to hear them, with a genuine curiosity to understand what was happening for them in that moment as they now perceive it. Then we express how their behaviour impacted us or others. Then talk about ways to make amends. Then talk about how to prevent the same issue going forward.

So this is an idea for how to move forward. There are other techniques, but this is the one I'm trained in so I'm sharing the bare bones of it here. Since this is what you asked for.

 

[Evie]

And the lie wasn’t one of omission as someone stated. She literally volunteered to me that something completely different happened than what in reality happened.

That was me, because the way you relayed the conversation it read to me like she told you that x happened THEN y happened (i.e. Both of them gave the man oral sex) and she only omitted telling you about y (her involvement) until "a few minutes later" (your words). Are you saying that only she gave the man oral sex? Is this what she admitted to? And in admitting to that, she has betrayed your trust because she acted impulsively this breaking rule one and this has tipped the scales of fairness out of balance.

 

[Magdlyn]

I think "boundaries" is a fashionable term that people like to use to feel current and cool. But it is overused, and often used incorrectly.

If she had her own boundary, where she said she would tell you in advance whether she was going to have sex, and you assured her you didn't need to know in advance, and you'd just be fine whether she did or not, the only person she violated was herself-- she wasn't going to have sex; oops, she did have sex. What would follow from that, rationally, is her understanding she might want sex during a date when she wasn't feeling it prior to a date. What should follow is her own self-knowledge that her feelings can change in the moment, so she shouldn't promise herself to do or not do sexual things prior to a date.

She didn't break YOUR boundary. She was more lying to herself, or not being self aware, or upset at her own lack of control. I'd recommend giving her some grace. If I were you, I would tell her, "No, I do not want to hear your thoughts on whether you will or will not have sex going in to a date. What you do is none of my business. Go have fun, and do whatever makes you feel good, as long as you practice safer sex.

"I am happy you didn't give Gal oral (or other) sex, since she might have a yeast infection, or worse, and we don't want to bring that home to each other. On the other hand, if Guy is having sex with Gal, he might have a hidden yeast infection too, and you might've picked it up by giving him a bj Maybe don't date these 2 and get tempted to have sex at all until after they are both treated for yeast infections (if Gal does have one), and/or get back negative STD results on all fronts."

 

[GalaGirl]

I don’t disagree with you that absolute statements are foolish…..I was emotional at the time.

I hope you are feeling a bit better today.

I was specifically looking for some ideas on how I get to a place I can hear her and start trusting again.

Do you mean you need help or ideas for HOW to cool off? Because right now you are still all emotional and maybe hot under the collar?

I know I need at least 3 days for the adrenalin dump to clear my body. For my feelings to calm. For my thoughts to also calm and I can approach things from a logical place and not a "I lost my temper" place. I can't just leap into talking about serious stuff. It will just crank me up all over again.

I ask to be left alone and drop this topic til at least _____ date. I will check in if ready sooner than then.

During the time out?

I need my schedule to go as planned and things on time like meals, taking a walk, sleep.

I need to do quiet things like read, garden, work a puzzle. If I can book a massage, I will. Because stress does things to the body.

I need to socialize with people NOT in the situation. Like leave the house and go get aired out among pleasant company doing nothing esp hard. Mini golf, bookstore coffee. Easy stuff.

 

[dingedheart]

I think the disconnect for the OP is the value he placed on the relationship and agreements made with in the relationship. AND it seems doubling maddening that if one is pushing, authoring, making rules or boundaries or agreements that are Or were important or valued by her that a rando blowjob in the moment could trump all of that.

Everyone seems caught up on the rule was unrealistic and stupid so it was bound to be broken …bound to be lied about. REALLY …I don’t think so. What part of ethical was practiced in this non monogamy? The cornerstone or foundation is the ethical part. It collapses pretty fucking fast when you take that away.

your question seems to be how move past this. IMO the bar is now set really low. DONT make agreements with her which temptation in the moment will be an issue For her. Require more proof or evidence or testing and labs …start wearing condoms or abstaining from sex if something feels off. There’s no magic just time.

You haven’t said other than she admitted making a mistake how your partner is reacting to your reaction and fallout of this. Does she feel horrible and guilty or is she rug sweeping? That makes a huge difference too.

 

[coffeeandconvo]

I hope you are feeling a bit better today.



Do you mean you need help or ideas for HOW to cool off? Because right now you are still all emotional and maybe hot under the collar?

I know I need at least 3 days for the adrenalin dump to clear my body. For my feelings to calm. For my thoughts to also calm and I can approach things from a logical place and not a "I lost my temper" place. I can't just leap into talking about serious stuff. It will just crank me up all over again.

I ask to be left alone and drop this topic til at least _____ date. I will check in if ready sooner than then.

During the time out?

I need my schedule to go as planned and things on time like meals, taking a walk, sleep.

I need to do quiet things like read, garden, work a puzzle. If I can book a massage, I will. Because stress does things to the body.

I need to socialize with people NOT in the situation. Like leave the house and go get aired out among pleasant company doing nothing esp hard. Mini golf, bookstore coffee. Easy stuff.

Thank you! This was what I was needing to hear. Thank you for engaging me where I am at the moment!

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

That was me, because the way you relayed the conversation it read to me like she told you that x happened THEN y happened (i.e. Both of them gave the man oral sex) and she only omitted telling you about y (her involvement) until "a few minutes later" (your words). Are you saying that only she gave the man oral sex? Is this what she admitted to? And in admitting to that, she has betrayed your trust because she acted impulsively this breaking rule one and this has tipped the scales of fairness out of balance.

Ignore this quote evie, i can't delete it!

It collapses pretty fucking fast when you take that away

I think it collapses pretty fast when you set yourself up for failure.

 

[coffeeandconvo]

I think the disconnect for the OP is the value he placed on the relationship and agreements made with in the relationship. AND it seems doubling maddening that if one is pushing, authoring, making rules or boundaries or agreements that are Or were important or valued by her that a rando blowjob in the moment could trump all of that.

Everyone seems caught up on the rule was unrealistic and stupid so it was bound to be broken …bound to be lied about. REALLY …I don’t think so. What part of ethical was practiced in this non monogamy? The cornerstone or foundation is the ethical part. It collapses pretty fucking fast when you take that away.

your question seems to be how move past this. IMO the bar is now set really low. DONT make agreements with her which temptation in the moment will be an issue For her. Require more proof or evidence or testing and labs …start wearing condoms or abstaining from sex if something feels off. There’s no magic just time.

You haven’t said other than she admitted making a mistake how your partner is reacting to your reaction and fallout of this. Does she feel horrible and guilty or is she rug sweeping? That makes a huge difference too.

Thank you for actually engaging my actual post..
She’s crushed, she understands that she broke my trust and is taking full responsibility. The hard part for me is that we’ve been together for 8 years and I’ve never had any reason not to trust her until she met this couple. There are a lot of details that have nothing to do with my original question that I left out simply because I don’t need to discuss the full situation. We’ve always seen a couples counselor and we will work through this, thank you again.

 

[dingedheart]

I think it collapses pretty fast when you set yourself up for failure.

YES …HE overestimated the power of an agreement from a committed partner and she overestimate the gravitational pull and allure of a new penis to to suck or blow ( depending of the slang you want to use ) YUP Failure on both their parts …you’re right.

 

[dingedheart]

Thank you for actually engaging my actual post..

my pleasure

She’s crushed, she understands that she broke my trust and is taking full responsibility.

good / great start IMO. Is she ok with dealing with some consequences as a result ?

The hard part for me is that we’ve been together for 8 years and I’ve never had any reason not to trust her until she met this couple.

To me it’s about judgment and or (the lack there of ) and being confident in your partners judgment stay safe emotionally and physically.

There are a lot of details that have nothing to do with my original question that I left out simply because I don’t need to discuss the full situation. We’ve always seen a couples counselor and we will work through this, thank you again.

Good luck moving forward

 

[kdt26417]

Hi coffeeandconvo,

You seem to be very sincere about wanting to forgive your partner, and trust her again. My initial advice would be for the two of you to see a poly-friendly counselor. Then, I would suggest you reset your relationship back to zero -- the two of you will be strictly monogamous for a while, until you can work this out. Let her prove that she can be trusted when everything is set to zero. Then, after you have rebuilt trust in that area, venture back into polyamory little by little, with lots of rules so she can prove that she can be trusted every little step of the way. After you have rebuilt trust in that area, then you can wash away some of those rules, and become freely poly. Just don't try to do it all at once. Do it a little at a time.

Such is my initial advice,
Kevin T.