Can this marriage be saved?

T

tmw0602

New member
Hi all,

I'm new to this forum and have really been comforted/informed by many of the threads I've read.
I'm sure you all have probably gotten this question many times, so forgive me if it seems repetitive.

My husband and I will celebrate our 10th wedding anniversary in a few weeks. Unfortunately, we are in a weird and sad space right now because I told him last week -- after much soul-searching and internal debate -- that I wanted to open our relationship up.
Originally, he seemed open to the idea. In the first day or two after our initial conversation about it, in fact, he asked a lot of questions, said he felt freer to flirt with women, understood some of my angst and distance better and felt generally bouyed by the fact that he no longer worried that my "pulling away" as he called it was because I didn't love him. He was happy to learn that I did in fact love him very much and didn't want to hurt him, but I'd been evolving toward this point for two, going on three, years.
But yesterday, he did a 180. He is sad, "heartbroken," disappointed and hurt. He sobbed like a baby while I held him (something that has only ever happened once in our marriage -- when a close family member of his died). He said he feels bad about himself, feels "less than," feels "shitty," feels like a death has occurred.
His pain affects me so tremendously, I immediately pulled back on my desire to be polyamorous. I assured him that he was the most important person in my life, our marriage and family the most important things. And if he couldn't deal with this, then we wouldn't do it. Period.
I'm not sure if he believes me. He now says he knows how I "really feel," so he doesn't know how proceed. He wants us to work, and he wants me to be happy, but he is having a supremely hard time processing all that he has learned about me and my needs and my idea of what makes a fulfilling life.

Here's my question:
Can this marriage be saved?

1. Can he move on from here, provided I make a sincere effort to reassure him of his place in my heart and in my life?

2. Can I be OK without the outside relationships I have craved?

Does anyone have experience similar to this? I am so scared to lose him and our family and all that we've built together. He's an amazing, wonderful, loving, beautiful man and I love him so much. I don't want this to come between us, but I fear I've let the horse out of the barn, so to speak, and there's no going back now.

:(
 
One of the wisest things I ever heard about poly was that the change from a mono to a poly relationship, even if it's wanted by everyone involved, is still the *end* of one relationship and the *beginning* of another. The end of ANY relationship will have a mourning phase - that doesn't mean that you have to pull back, it's one of those things where "the only way out is through".

It's only been a week. Give it time. Don't rush into doing anything to further open your marriage, but don't feel you have to pull back from who you are just to save your husband's feelings. They are, after all, his to process and not yours to bear the burden of.

(And I'm serious about that being true in ANY relationship. I'm poly to the core, as is my longest-running partner (Knight). There was *still* mourning, and occasionally it still hits me funny, that we don't have the "Disney-normative", "mono high school sweethearts" relationship we once did, even though we are both FAR happier in our current lives.)
 
Thank you so much icesong! What did people do before these kinds of electronic support groups existed? Wow. I'd be lost!

What you say makes sense, of course. It all makes sense intellectually. Everything I told myself about why I was feeling more and more like polyamory made sense has been validated by reading lots of well-written articles, listening to poignant podcasts and TED talks, and reading many of the insightful posts on this forum.

But it all feels so immensely sad right now, and I guess I didn't properly prepare myself for that. I can intellectualize this all day and feel like it's right, but when he calls me on the phone, sobbing while sitting in his parked car at work (which just happened), I stop being able to intellectualize and all I can do is feel. His broken heart seems like the most important thing right now, so I feel so selfish even thinking that my needs should have ever been important. (When I knew my needs could potentially cause so much hurt.)
How does one get past the inherent selfishness of this desire? (Using "selfishness," even though I know that it is a loaded word, but I can't think of a better one.)

Thanks again for listening.
 
Hi tmw0602,

Something you could try is to "go monogamous" for a year, and then see how you feel. See how you feel after a year. See how your husband feels after a year. At that point, you may have a better idea of whether your marriage can be saved. Whether you can realistically remain monogamous for the rest of your life. Whether your husband can go on with the marriage regardless. Giving it a year gives both of you a good amount of time to think, communicate, and process emotions.

Just a thought.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I agree with icesong. It's only been a week. Things changed in one day. It could even out. I know I went back and forth on a few things and I am poly by nature.

None of us can answer if he is going to wallow in misery or grow from this, but it's not going to happen over night.
 
I'd say NO that marriage is dead. Whatever new marriage or relationship will grow from this new point.


Also if you've been pulling away and being distant for 2-3 yrs now and without juggling partners or dating and without NRE what's it going to look like down the road for him. Do you know if he did any research following his excitement stage and his meltdowns. ?
 
It definitely doesn't sound like the marriage is dead. You sound very positive about your hubby, and his upset about your interest in poly shows he still has strong feelings for you, too. He just needs to get used to the new information -- and you need to keep showing him that although you're not going to pretend you only ever want a monogamous relationship, you're also not going to rush into something that will dramatically change his life. Just take things slow, consider his feelings and keep encouraging him to share them, communicate openly with him about your needs, and honor any agreements the two of you make about when and how to open up. Good luck!
 
My point was the " old marriage " the way things were was then and this is now. Very hard to unring bells if that even if that were remotely possible.

It's actually a bit more than getting use to new information.
 
My point was the " old marriage " the way things were was then and this is now. Very hard to unring bells if that even if that were remotely possible.

It's actually a bit more than getting use to new information.


I'd reread this from DH again.

It's actually a bit more than getting use to new information.
[/B]

And I'd pay particular attention to this the above sentence because those telling you all it is is that he has to process the information are basically telling you that you told him your WANTS and now it is his responsibility to accept it by any means necessary over time. That's exactly right IF you are willing to walk away from the marriage because your WANTS are NEEDS that you cannot live without.

I would not take much stock in his initial excitement. There are a lot of men who initially think this might be fun that get "cold feet' when its time for wifey to be naked with another man.

But here are the facts honey. You may know this but married women are the most exciting thing men can get hold of, and married men are the LAST thing that the overwhelming majority of women want any part of. So I would advise you to tread really slow here because unless you are totally cool with ending your marriage if it comes to it, pushing him into it and going under the assumption that since you were honest its his resonsibility to accept it is a very dangerous proposition.

And as DH said to you, now that you have told him you want to have sex with other men, do not be surprised if unless he accepts this proposition that his feelings about your comittment to the marriage slips a bit no matter what you say now. He can't unhear what he heard.
 
sexyserb said:
But here are the facts honey. You may know this but married women are the most exciting thing men can get hold of, and married men are the LAST thing that the overwhelming majority of women want any part of. So I would advise you to tread really slow here because unless you are totally cool with ending your marriage if it comes to it, pushing him into it and going under the assumption that since you were honest its his resonsibility to accept it is a very dangerous proposition.
Click to expand...

This is not, for the record, my experience at all. I think it depends on the circles you run in.
 
icesong said:
This is not, for the record, my experience at all. I think it depends on the circles you run in.
Click to expand...

Yes, what sexyserb said is from her own experience of a DADT "open marriage" where the agreement was basically sex and friendship only, no love, no long term actual polyamory.

I think single or partnered men can desire or not desire dating a married woman. Whereas if it's "sex only," a single guy who doesn't want to be tied down will be attracted to a beautiful horny married woman, sure.

But back to the main topic, dropping the poly bomb, so to speak. I am not going to make any broad sweeping statements about "this marriage is dead" or dying, etc.

I will say, in LTRs, both partners will change over the years, and experience new needs and interests. It may be around wanting other partners, or it may be job changes, health changes, new hobbies, new interest in a religion, you name it.

Unfortunately our culture does not support this. All the media and culture supports a long term marriage, complete commitment to the relationship, ahead of our own changes and evolving desires and interests.

tmw0602, it sounds like your husband didn't expect you to change. Despite your distance the last couple years, once he knew the reason, he didn't experience a new closeness when you opened up to him. You've had poly on your mind for years. He's been hipped to it for a week. Obviously he has some catching up to do!

It is extremely common for it to take at least a year for a previously mono (or even swinger) couple to make this transition.

Is there a particular person you want to poly with? If there isn't, that is kind of lucky, so that your husband doesn't have a seeming rival to get all bent out of shape about.

Once he comes out of his initial funk and devastating insecurity, you may want to request he listen to some podcasts you like. There are also two good books, Opening Up, and More Than Two, that you might want to purchase and read together.

Good luck! I know this is hard.
 
Thanks all -- things are getting better!

Thanks so much to all of you who took the time to respond to my original post some weeks back. I took a bit of a break from the forum because, after my husband's reaction, I needed to really evaluate what I wanted and what I didn't want. I'd never seen him so despondent; he threw my heart for a huge loop!

Since the initial roller coaster, things seem to have evened out. We have had more talks and he has been very frank with me about his feelings of ambivalence (sure it would be nice for him to fuck other women - YES!; my wife doesn't think I'm enough and wants to fuck other men - NO!) and we even went away without the kids for a long weekend and spent lots of quality time talking about this, but also lots of other things completely non-related. We just spent TIME, and it was really great. We touched a lot and held each other and expressed in explicit terms how much we loved each other and desired to grow old together and spoil our eventual grandchildren and not be barriers to one another's personal happiness because of outdated, unrealistic world views on romantic relationships. We also went to a strip club - at his request - and got some lap dances from some very beautiful women and came back to the hotel and had amazing, beginning-of-our-relationship-style sex! It was amazing -- and so needed.

Since then, he has stuck to his assertion that we continue to explore the idea of polyamory. He says he can handle it. He says he knows it will be difficult once the hypothetical becomes a reality, but he says he wants to do it. He claims he wants it not just for me but for himself, which is, honestly, hard for me to believe since he never once said a word about it (also, see his reaction when I mentioned it). But I'm trying to take him at his word, since really, that's all I have.

In the meantime, I'm taking all the advice I got from all of you: taking it slow, not rushing into anything, trying not to pretend like I want a purely monogamous relationship anymore but also not making a big deal out of polyamory right now. So far, this seems to be working. I am cautiously optimistic. :) I did have a therapist friend of mine warn me that she has never seen open relationships work - ever, in all her experience as a professional and as a friend to couples who have tried it. So that freaked me out a bit and I had serious doubts that I was doing the right thing. But he keeps being consistent about us proceeding carefully and lovingly down this road, so I am crossing all my fingers and toes that maybe we can beat the odds? I dunno. Still nervous, to be honest, but just the existence of all of the couples on this forum makes me feel like it does work *sometimes.* So maybe it can/will work for us. I am not prepared to end this marriage, though, as one responder asked. I do not want that to happen under any circumstances. I love him too much.

One of you asked if there was someone I was interested in, and the answer is yes. He's not the reason for my desire for polyamory, but possibly the reason why I could no longer keep my feelings about it to myself. The good news (that's a joke...) is that it's someone who is attached and not interested in polyamory, so it's not a good fit for me right now. Which makes it easier for it not to be a "thing," while my husband and I are trying to figure things out. And honestly, it feels like it would be easier/convenient if he (hubby) were to "go first," as it were. I'm sure that seems silly and is reflective of my nervousness about him freaking out on me when/if I ever consummate this desire for another. But I do think I'll feel better if I know he really is OK with being with someone else and he sees that it doesn't have to change what we do as a couple or for our family; we'll still be US. I think he needs that assurance; he needs to feel it for himself.

I've been reading lots of posts here about how people feel when the rubber meets the road, so to speak, and I'm trying to prepare myself for those feelings (from both of us) when that day comes. But for now, I'm just happy that he and I are on better footing, and still very much in love and committed to our relationship. And I thank you all so much for your insights and suggestions. All very helpful!

Will keep you posted.
 
Hi tmw0602, glad to hear that you and your husband are on better footing. Hopefully he will have a good experience with open marriage, which will lead him to feeling better about your part of the open equation. Thanks for your update!
 
tmw0602 said:
We have had more talks and he has been very frank with me about his feelings of ambivalence (sure it would be nice for him to fuck other women - YES!; my wife doesn't think I'm enough and wants to fuck other men - NO!) ...He claims he wants it not just for me but for himself, which is, honestly, hard for me to believe since he never once said a word about it (also, see his reaction when I mentioned it). But I'm trying to take him at his word, since really, that's all I have.
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I am not there, of course, but from what you describe, his wanting poly for himself is not sounding hard to believe at all. His reaction when you mentioned it - as you describe it - was that he'd get to flirt with other women :p

In a way, his interest is good news for you. Though of course, not fully, because it still doesn't mean he will react well to you going poly. It will be a journey and you seem to be making a good start with conversation and reaffirming your love for each other and ensure each is heard and understood and comfort cared for BEFORE any changes happen.

I did have a therapist friend of mine warn me that she has never seen open relationships work - ever, in all her experience as a professional and as a friend to couples who have tried it. So that freaked me out a bit and I had serious doubts that I was doing the right thing.
Click to expand...

Most therapists promote the view where the money is. And the bigger market is with monogamy, so it looks the right choice "professionally". This may sound cynical and some like to look at it as therapists being a product of their conditioning, etc. As someone who has done processwork a lot, I find it hard to believe that they are unable to understand something that is a fairly natural thought to emerge from a mind - whether acted on or not. So preference also becomes an unknowing filter, muddying their own process clarity - it isn't about them at all. Point being, therapists, priests, caterers, politicians or anyone profiting from monogamy is a bad person to ask an opinion on poly. Sure, she said it. All relationships have pitfalls. None have guarantees. Don't go in expecting the worst and finding it. Solid communication is an asset all relationships that work have in common.

The good news (that's a joke...) is that it's someone who is attached and not interested in polyamory, so it's not a good fit for me right now.
Click to expand...

This may be bigger good news than you realize. If you'd suggested poly with a new partner already picked out in your mind, BEFORE discussing with your husband, your husband would take it as cheating (your commitment to him, till revised was monogamy - you'd have had no business picking out sexual partners - whether you act on it or not) and your chances of making it work would diminish drastically. Even if you didn't tell him, he'd sense it. Loving partners really know us very minutely. Cheating can screw up any relationship. It is very very hard to recover from and given how your husband is about you being with someone else, it would probably have been a very severe blow to your relationship. Plain luck, but this is really good news.
 
What is success?

I did have a therapist friend of mine warn me that she has never seen open relationships work - ever, in all her experience as a professional and as a friend to couples who have tried it.
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Oy vey!! That's usually because their definition of "success" is a saving and maintaining a long term monogamous relationship.

Regardless of mono or poly, isn't it a success when people figure out what they want and take actions to achieve that?
 
I've gone to 5 or 6 therapists over the years for relationship tweaking or personal growth. One of them lasted as my therapist for one day. Guess why...?



Because she said married people "should never" get crushes on others.



I was appalled at her naivete (or disingenuousness) and unprofessionalism. Telling me I "shouldn't" have a feeling I had was all I needed to fire her.
 
I imagine a lot of therapists see people opening up a relationship to try to save a doomed marriage, which never works.
 
TMW,

So lets start from the beginning of your post. Your husband has gone back and forth like a yo yo on this. First he was OK, then not OK, the he can handle it. Really.??? All that shows is he is totally confused.
So here you have a guy who now wants to do it for himself, which you believe like you believe the moon is made of swiss cheese. Now, not one person here has a clue, nor do you, what will happen when as you say the hypothetical becomes a reality, you might want to read a thread by a poster named SURFERJEN, whose husband told her he was fine with it, and if you want to you can read my original post and history.

So lets start with the premise he his OK and wants to do it, which I am not convinced of and do not believe you are either. If he is like most men, he is looking at the excitement of physical intimacy, i.e.SEX ( males #1 need), and is most likely thinking one iota of falling in love or developing very strong emotions for anyone but you. But unless you are one of the few who believe men and womens brains function identically, you will read and understand that women very rarely sustain sexual relationships with a person without developing strong emotional bonds. So, the big question is how do you handle that one.????

Now the talk about growing old together. Wonderful, you love bombed him on vacation and now you are hearing a lot of what you want to hear. So I hope you are reading and understand that you are embarking on a journey that has the ability to end your marriage. And no one here knows nor do you the answer to that one.

I'd ask your husband a few question because what kills many relationships, even in non monogamy of any form, is broken agreements or boundaries. So far this hypothetical consists of if you each have sex with someone else, but how is this husband of yours, who has no waffled back and forth, likely to react when
(1) you want to progress from dating and sex to overnight stays.
(2) then to week ends away from him
(3) then to having your boyfriend over to your house while he is there
(4) to watching you get ready to go have sex with another man while he is struggling to connect.
(50 to you telling him that you will be spending 50% of your time with your boyfriend

Will all these things or any of them happen. Who knows, but quite likely some of them will on your end. Now, unfortunately, there are some here whose position will be that you state what you need, and then its entirely his responsibility to adjust, meditate, see a thera[pist, read books, but accept what you change the rules to after you decide what initially the agreements are. The point being, the more emotionally involved you get with someone, the less willing you will be to not have what you want. I hope you are thinking about all of this, as well as what are you going to do if he says after the hypothetical turns to reality that he is not happy and wants it to stop.???

Non-monogamous relationship, while different that monogamous ones in practice, are destroyed by broken trust, broken boundaries unless you decide anything goes, and a constant moving of the goalposts until one partner is way out of the comfort or acceptable zone.

The other piece of this is that it appears, and I may have misunderstood so I apologize, that you basically already had a guy you were interested in but who rejected the idea hooking up with you because he was not interested in poly. Now you claim that had no influence at all but i hope you have told your husband the truth about this other man, because it sounds like if he jumped at your offer, you would have been already ready to have sex with him./

My suggestion to you is that you take your hubby to a swingers club, and i will tell you why. If he is not comfortable and cannot deal with you in the same location, knowing you are having sex with another man at a place where he will also have the opportunity, then how do you really think he is going to react when he is watching the kids and you go out all dolled up right in front of him while he sits there at home.

I am giving you this advice as someone who like you, was the initiator of the opening the marriage talk. And while I did fuck up and cross a few boundaries once, I did not every two months tell my husband that I needed to expand and change the rules. He made it very clear that if I wanted to stay married as my primary and overriding goal, that there were certain things, not sex acts, that he would accept and that he would not accept. Any relationship I developed, and I had sex with over 30 men in two years, some multiple times, were measured by that when they started to want more than I was willing to give they were jettisoned. So set your goal and stick to it even if it is painful.

And lastly, you can read or talk to as many people as you want to, but understand as a female you are going to get many more opportunities to become intimate with other men than your husband will in all probability. If you doubt that both of you go out to bars or clubs or anywhere you want to and you both tell everyone who approaches you that you are married but in an open relationship and see how many men give a shit versus what the women tell your husband. Him "starting" first does not mean a damm thing unless you want to gauge your reaction, but thats not a good thougt process IF you are doing it so that when you are with someone else you are justified because he went first regardless of his feelings.

I think most responsible people will tell you the following
(1) opening a relationship is doomed unless both partners work at it and are for the most part on the same page and resolve conflict by compromise.
(2) there is totally honest communication
(3) there is a plan discussed for the things that can go wrong
(4) swinging is easier than poly because if the boudraies are kept, there are no third or more persons deepest emotions involved.

Again, no one here can navigate this journey for you, so I'd make sure you really have some deep thought with yourself as to how committed you are to make preserving your marriage the top priority versus meeting you non monogamy needs because unless you fall into blissful luck you will face some kind of decision on those issues if you make this discussion a reality.
 
tmw0602 said:
Hi all,

I'm new to this forum and have really been comforted/informed by many of the threads I've read.
I'm sure you all have probably gotten this question many times, so forgive me if it seems repetitive.

My husband and I will celebrate our 10th wedding anniversary in a few weeks. Unfortunately, we are in a weird and sad space right now because I told him last week -- after much soul-searching and internal debate -- that I wanted to open our relationship up.
Originally, he seemed open to the idea. In the first day or two after our initial conversation about it, in fact, he asked a lot of questions, said he felt freer to flirt with women, understood some of my angst and distance better and felt generally bouyed by the fact that he no longer worried that my "pulling away" as he called it was because I didn't love him. He was happy to learn that I did in fact love him very much and didn't want to hurt him, but I'd been evolving toward this point for two, going on three, years.
But yesterday, he did a 180. He is sad, "heartbroken," disappointed and hurt. He sobbed like a baby while I held him (something that has only ever happened once in our marriage -- when a close family member of his died). He said he feels bad about himself, feels "less than," feels "shitty," feels like a death has occurred.
His pain affects me so tremendously, I immediately pulled back on my desire to be polyamorous. I assured him that he was the most important person in my life, our marriage and family the most important things. And if he couldn't deal with this, then we wouldn't do it. Period.
I'm not sure if he believes me. He now says he knows how I "really feel," so he doesn't know how proceed. He wants us to work, and he wants me to be happy, but he is having a supremely hard time processing all that he has learned about me and my needs and my idea of what makes a fulfilling life.

Here's my question:
Can this marriage be saved?

1. Can he move on from here, provided I make a sincere effort to reassure him of his place in my heart and in my life?

2. Can I be OK without the outside relationships I have craved?

Does anyone have experience similar to this? I am so scared to lose him and our family and all that we've built together. He's an amazing, wonderful, loving, beautiful man and I love him so much. I don't want this to come between us, but I fear I've let the horse out of the barn, so to speak, and there's no going back now.

:(
Click to expand...

Your problem doesn't seem to be unique, so you're certainly not alone. I would say the real question isn't "Can this marriage be saved?", but "Can your relationship survive and evolve into something better?" If you're focused on the first one you're going to remain in the same cycle of repression that marriage is responsible for, and things won't really be resolved. At best they'll get swept under the rug. However if your focus is on evolving your relationship into something better, then you can consider marriage a stepping stone to something more fulfilling, and leaving it behind can be considered it a celebration rather than a failure.

Think of it like graduating the high-school of relationships. Do people really need to stay in high-school their whole lives? No. How many times should you have to repeat it to get the same certificate? You'd think once would be plenty, but for some unfathomable reason some people decide to go for repeat after repeat. You've already been down that road as far as it can take you. Maybe it's time for you both to graduate and take your relationship to new heights by getting out of your marriage, keeping each other, and freeing yourselves to form additional loving relationships with others without the constraints and inherent weaknesses imposed by marriage.
 
Update: We've started. And it's officially weird. (But OK.)

(Note: Somehow I missed the last two responses until just now, so forgive me for not replying!)

So, one month after starting these discussions, it seems we are actually on this road -- no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Last night, my husband went solo to a party that we were supposed to go to together because our son got sick at the last minute. And he ended up meeting a woman there who interested him. They exchanged phone numbers and this morning, he took her out on a brunch date.

Soooooo....here we are.

And I am processing, processing, processing.

I can't really tell you how I feel, except that it's the most bizarre thing watching your husband leave the house for a date while you're cleaning up the breakfast dishes and tending to your sick son. I have been walking around in a bit of a fog ever since.

I *think* I feel a little bit of jealousy, mixed with curiosity about this woman, mixed with a little bit of anxiety/insecurity, mixed with a little bit of resentment that I was up all night with a puking kid while he was out having fun and home all morning/afternoon caring for our children while he was out enjoying a lovely meal with a woman who interests him. But then I also feel happy for him that he was out enjoying himself -- we've never been the kind of couple that had to do everything together, and we both appreciate and respect the other's downtime/solo time, no matter what the other is doing, so I guess I now just have to add "dating" to the list of things he might be doing while I'm home with our kids. I knew intellectually that this would feel weird, but I didn't know emotionally *how* exactly that weirdness would feel. Does that make sense? I'm all over the place.

Also, he looked super handsome when he left the house and there was this part of me that also hoped she appreciated him and liked him, and that the date wasn't a bust. Isn't that so WEIRD? Like, I felt protective over his feelings, in the same way I did when he was unemployed briefly at the beginning of our marriage and kept applying for jobs I KNOW he could totally do, but kept getting rejections. I think each "no" hurt me more than it hurt him. I couldn't understand how everyone didn't see how amazing and valuable he was! I definitely felt some of that going on today, even as I kept checking the time thinking, "he's STILL out?! Damn!"
Like I said -- weird.

I also feel a bit blue for me that I opened up this conversation and started us down this road and somehow, he's had a date, while I haven't. I know it's not a competition, but it does seem rather ironic, in a cosmically, comically cruel kind of way, like something someone would use as an example of "how you know God has a sense of humor." LIFE, I swear!

I read the last couple posts to this thread just before sitting down to write this, and boy was there a lot to take in!! He and I will have to talk later about his date and our feelings -- after the kids go to bed. But in the meantime, I think I'm mainly just hoping we, individually, and as a couple, have the mettle to survive this -- and maybe evolve and become even better, as the last poster said.

I definitely still want to have a boyfriend or special friend or whatever you want to call it at some point. But more than anything else, I hope we haven't opened Pandora's box. Above all else, I want my marriage to be good, healthy and whole -- "for as long as we both shall live." And I'll keep coming here for support and advice to help me do all I can to make sure that happens.

Thanks for all your insights!
 
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