Clean break, discovered manipulation.

[Astirarose]

We talked.. it hit an escalation point, and we both realized we miscommunicated our intentions.

He thought I wanted to try and save the friendship, so thats why he planned to call, to try to keep in contact and smooth things over a little at a time.

We were seriously miscommunicating. He says he got snapped right out of the NRE the other night when this all went down.

He thought I still had an interest in being friends with her, now that he knows I dont, he has no inclination to call or contact her.

He was looking out for me.

I hate when these miscommunications happen, they can be so frustrating, but I'm happy that instead of days of being angry, we resolve things quickly.

I feel silly for misunderstanding the situation... This one is on me for over reacting.

 

[kdt26417]

That's good news!

 

[anamikanon]

We talked.. it hit an escalation point, and we both realized we miscommunicated our intentions.

He thought I wanted to try and save the friendship, so thats why he planned to call, to try to keep in contact and smooth things over a little at a time.

We were seriously miscommunicating. He says he got snapped right out of the NRE the other night when this all went down.

He thought I still had an interest in being friends with her, now that he knows I dont, he has no inclination to call or contact her.

He was looking out for me.

I hate when these miscommunications happen, they can be so frustrating, but I'm happy that instead of days of being angry, we resolve things quickly.

I feel silly for misunderstanding the situation... This one is on me for over reacting.

Whopper comedy of errors.

 

[Magdlyn]

I should clarify, I dont know if he intends to "date" her, but still be friends with her, play games, chat.

I told him that if he decides to continue with her in whatever respect, that I will not be friends with her regardless.

I admit I'm hurt, that he would even consider it, but I'm trying to understand it. Is he really an asshole, or is this really NRE? Will he have a couple days to think about it and change his mind? I don't know.

I don't know If I can respect him the same way if he chooses to continue with her considering what she has done.

I understand it's hard for you. It's hard for him. He is having trouble letting her go, despite the perception she lied about your intentions to her husband.

We can't always choose our partner's friends. A mono couple could have this problem. Say your h had a male platonic friend you really didnt like. You could say, this friend isn't allowed in your house. But you wouldn't have the right to say your h couldn't be friends with him and see him outside the house. If it really bothered you, only you could decide if you lost respect for your h for associating with someone you found really distasteful. What does it say about his personality that he likes someone you find to be gross or icky or whatever?

But in this case, it's early days. Your h isn't thinking rationally. Just a week or two ago, all 4 of you were fucking. You spent hours on the road to go see them. His feelings aren't going to subside overnight.

 

[Astirarose]

He is still struggling, and feeling guilt. He admitted this morning.

I think him admitting that they exchanged I love you's (And I didn't freak out about it) hopefully has made him feel a bit safer about opening up and start healing.

He is struggling he said with the fact he does still miss her, but he knows what she did was wrong.

I believe him in the moments he says he doesn't, and feels nothing, simply because I think its his way of distancing from her, and making that break so in those moments that is what he feels.

I wish I could find a local Poly person nearby that he would talk to, feel safe to completely open up and start healing. He can only do that to some extent with me because he is worried about hurting me, and his natural tendency is to downplay. I think I need to reassure him that I'm ok with whatever he feels. That he wont hurt me.

He hates what she did, but also misses her, and feels guilty about missing her.

I feel sad for him, struggling like this, I hate to see him feeling this pain, and feeling he has no real outlet to release it.

He also says he struggles with knowing that part of what he is feeling, is although he doesn't like what she did, he almost feels flattered that someone went to those lengths.

I'm sure this will eventually resolve into, no it just isn't right. My husband does have a very high moral and ethical meter.

But Now I realize this one will take him a while to get over, even with the circumstances.

Any advice on how to help him, on my part. Things to avoid maybe, and things that would be helpful to help him heal?

 

[breathemusic]

I think that if you guys read up on communication and work to learn some more effective communication tools that could definitely help. It would also help if your husband could work on trying to share his feelings more and be more open. That way you can demonstrate that you can accept that he has feelings and his feelings are valid (you don't have to agree, just respect that he has those feelings) and then he will be more willing to share in the future.

It's completely reasonable for him to be both sad and miss his ex and also to be angry or hurt by her behavior. Clearly you guys had both good times AND bad with the other couple, so it's rational to miss the good stuff, but be unhappy about the bad. That's HUMAN. If he can accept that, then hopefully the guilt will fade away.

Is there a reason that he doesn't want to meet local poly people in the community? Do you just not have much of a poly community where you are? Is he worried about being outed? Attending poly events doesn't have to mean that you're actively trying to date any of those poly people. I find that it's just refreshing to be around people who I don't have to explain my lifestyle to, and for new poly people it can be a great experience to just see all of the ways that other people poly and hear about what has worked and not worked for different people. But mostly, it just feels like going to any other social event with any other group of people.... they just happen to be poly!

 

[GalaGirl]

I think I need to reassure him that I'm ok with whatever he feels. That he wont hurt me.

Ultimately I think he needs to learn that he is not personally responsible for other people's feelings.

Say he DOES hurt you. Whose job is it to deal with your emotional management? YOU.

Just like it is not his job to repair their marriage or see to her hurt feelings. It is their job to deal with their marriage. It is her job to do her emotional management.

So rather than tell him he won't hurt you (which is what he fears doing) tell him you can handle your own emotions, you can cope even if he does accidentally hurt you. You are not a delicate flower. Please stop selling you short like you cannot cope with Life.

I feel sad for him, struggling like this, I hate to see him feeling this pain, and feeling he has no real outlet to release it.

Why are you selling him short like he cannot cope or cannot learn to cope?

If you are mainly helicoptering around him trying to find him solutions so YOU can stop feeling sad... you could deal with your sadness more directly and separately from him.

He may simply need to go through a hard time once to learn to find/create his outlets to release. And learn to tell what is his stuff to do in terms of his emotional management and what is him carrying everyone else's emotional baggage rather than letting people carry their own. Especially when he seems to think he's responsible for other people's feelings.

Any advice on how to help him, on my part. Things to avoid maybe, and things that would be helpful to help him heal?

I would say stick to the normal home routines, make sure he's getting sleep and food, and then give him space to figure out how he likes to cope when faced with a break up and faced with complex feelings. He's not going to get good at it if you don't let him practice. If the plan is to poly date again in future -- let him become more emotionally resilient.

You have to let him be and let him arrive on his own. Be ok seeing him upset.

You can ask him if there's anything you can do to help and let him own speaking up for himself and stating what he needs.

If he says "No, nothing at this time" respect that and leave him be. Stop hovering around him, or picking at him, or trying to get him to unburden stuff to you when he's not willing or not ready.

You checked in ONCE, that's all you need to do. If it makes you feel better to check in once a week, then check in once a week. That's often enough to be keeping up with him, but not DAILY so it becomes a drag.

This JUST happened. Checking in once a day or several times a day -- that's just going to keep him IN the messy brain space. Sometimes he's going to need breaks.

Galagirl

 

[anamikanon]

I think possessiveness and micromanaging is an overall pattern. I do think you should get some outside help with it. You were possessive around his girlfriend, then were all fine when she is out of the picture. Slightest hint he misses her and you're hovering wanting to help solve his problem coping.

What if his problem is that he thought her manipulations were born of a desperation to get some time with him that he can recognize, and he doesn't think they were that huge a deal, given the difficulty they were having getting together with you around?

I'm not saying that is what it is. My point is that you appear to be herding him so tight that you're literally spotting every instance he doesn't turn to you.

Well, if we put the shoe on the other foot, how would you be able to help, if what was troubling him was something you didn't want to hear? Would you be able to overcome your own issues and still be there for him? You already said at some point that you wouldn't be able to respect him if he still liked her (or similar). He clearly still does and struggles with it. Do you really think this is something he can safely confide in you and not risk you trying to control him further?

Right now with her out of the picture, you have a handle on your jealousy. Do you think he dares rock that boat?

From reading your posts, I don't get that impression. Anytime he appears to get close to or need someone other than you, you don't take it well. You seem to literally surround him. On trip with him to meet girlfriend for first time, do this, don't do this, not out of my sight, don't want to see, these are the rules, now you're breaking them, don't want her husband, you please join us here, she is manipulating and got time with him, she's not good enough for us, how can I fix this, how can I fix this for him, ..... right to the point of how can I get him to take my support?

At this point, it is looking more like you'd like to be the source of support for him, so you could head him off, if he seems to miss her genuinely. I'm being brutal, but this is my perception. If his problem was something you didn't want to hear, you would make it very not okay for him to have it at all. Perhaps not openly, but with various indirect means - all of which herd him in the direction you want. You are being very possessive. And after all this, even the help you want is how to get him to seek support from you instead of someone else.

Even the language is like he is accountable to you for what he feels. "he admits it" and such. Admitting is generally done to a charge/accusation. "He feels guilty" - we feel guilty for something when it isn't okay to do it.

It is too much. You will literally suffocate him into submission or drive him away like this.

You need some distance. You are getting obsessed and while your tenacity to improve the relationship is an advantage, if applied to controlling him, will bring grief to all - yourself included.

My original suggestions still stand. You cannot fix your discomfort with anything by changing someone else. If you are not okay with what he is going through and he does not want the help you feel compelled to offer, you need to look into yourself to ask why you need to change his process of getting help from where he thinks he should and why it must be you whose help he accepts. What happens to you if he turns to someone else for help? What happens to you if he doesn't confide in you when troubled. THAT needs addressing, or it will keep manifesting as going and standing in front of him wherever he turns, including away from you.

 

[Astirarose]

But in this case, it's early days. Your h isn't thinking rationally. Just a week or two ago, all 4 of you were fucking. You spent hours on the road to go see them. His feelings aren't going to subside overnight.

I know, Ive realized that since writing the other post. He opened up more to me last night about it.

I realized I was being too hard on him, and not giving him a chance to work through this.

 

[Astirarose]

I think possessiveness and micromanaging is an overall pattern. I do think you should get some outside help with it. You were possessive around his girlfriend, then were all fine when she is out of the picture. Slightest hint he misses her and you're hovering wanting to help solve his problem coping.

I agree with all of this.

I'm not saying that is what it is. My point is that you appear to be herding him so tight that you're literally spotting every instance he doesn't turn to you.

Again I agree. I'm trying..

You already said at some point that you wouldn't be able to respect him if he still liked her (or similar). He clearly still does and struggles with it. Do you really think this is something he can safely confide in you and not risk you trying to control him further?

I have realized how unfair I was to judge him on this. I haven't given him enough credit for what he has done.

From reading your posts, I don't get that impression. Anytime he appears to get close to or need someone other than you, you don't take it well. You seem to literally surround him. On trip with him to meet girlfriend for first time, do this, don't do this, not out of my sight, don't want to see, these are the rules, now you're breaking them, don't want her husband, you please join us here, she is manipulating and got time with him, she's not good enough for us, how can I fix this, how can I fix this for him, ..... right to the point of how can I get him to take my support?

At this point, it is looking more like you'd like to be the source of support for him, so you could head him off, if he seems to miss her genuinely. I'm being brutal, but this is my perception. If his problem was something you didn't want to hear, you would make it very not okay for him to have it at all. Perhaps not openly, but with various indirect means - all of which herd him in the direction you want. You are being very possessive. And after all this, even the help you want is how to get him to seek support from you instead of someone else.

Even the language is like he is accountable to you for what he feels. "he admits it" and such. Admitting is generally done to a charge/accusation. "He feels guilty" - we feel guilty for something when it isn't okay to do it.

It is too much. You will literally suffocate him into submission or drive him away like this.

You need some distance. You are getting obsessed and while your tenacity to improve the relationship is an advantage, if applied to controlling him, will bring grief to all - yourself included.

My original suggestions still stand. You cannot fix your discomfort with anything by changing someone else. If you are not okay with what he is going through and he does not want the help you feel compelled to offer, you need to look into yourself to ask why you need to change his process of getting help from where he thinks he should and why it must be you whose help he accepts. What happens to you if he turns to someone else for help? What happens to you if he doesn't confide in you when troubled. THAT needs addressing, or it will keep manifesting as going and standing in front of him wherever he turns, including away from you.

I wrote him a letter this morning, and told him that I will step back from this, so he can handle it how he feels he needs to, and that I would be here for him if he needs me. I know I turn into a hover.. Its been my role my whole life ( I took care of and protected my younger brothers from my abusive father). But I recognize this is a problem, and I take the criticism because I do want to improve. Even if we chose not to do Poly, it is still something I want to stop doing. I know I'm not doing a lot of things perhaps the right way, But I WANT to. Im ok with the criticisms, outside observations are helping me realize how tight of a leash I had on him without even realizing it. I don't think My behavior was what caused what she did, shes been doing it for a long time, we only just realized it the other day but suspected it. She is a very needy possessive person, and required hours and hours of his time a day. Can you imagine how he felt, sigh.. two women needing his attention

Im a bit dissapointed in my part in this, I've realized how I have contributed.
Im trying , I really am..

 

[Astirarose]

Ultimately I think he needs to learn that he is not personally responsible for other people's feelings.

Say he DOES hurt you. Whose job is it to deal with your emotional management? YOU.

Just like it is not his job to repair their marriage or see to her hurt feelings. It is their job to deal with their marriage. It is her job to do her emotional management.

So rather than tell him he won't hurt you (which is what he fears doing) tell him you can handle your own emotions, you can cope even if he does accidentally hurt you. You are not a delicate flower. Please stop selling you short like you cannot cope with Life.



Why are you selling him short like he cannot cope or cannot learn to cope?

If you are mainly helicoptering around him trying to find him solutions so YOU can stop feeling sad... you could deal with your sadness more directly and separately from him.

He may simply need to go through a hard time once to learn to find/create his outlets to release. And learn to tell what is his stuff to do in terms of his emotional management and what is him carrying everyone else's emotional baggage rather than letting people carry their own. Especially when he seems to think he's responsible for other people's feelings.



I would say stick to the normal home routines, make sure he's getting sleep and food, and then give him space to figure out how he likes to cope when faced with a break up and faced with complex feelings. He's not going to get good at it if you don't let him practice. If the plan is to poly date again in future -- let him become more emotionally resilient.

You have to let him be and let him arrive on his own. Be ok seeing him upset.

You can ask him if there's anything you can do to help and let him own speaking up for himself and stating what he needs.

If he says "No, nothing at this time" respect that and leave him be. Stop hovering around him, or picking at him, or trying to get him to unburden stuff to you when he's not willing or not ready.

You checked in ONCE, that's all you need to do. If it makes you feel better to check in once a week, then check in once a week. That's often enough to be keeping up with him, but not DAILY so it becomes a drag.

This JUST happened. Checking in once a day or several times a day -- that's just going to keep him IN the messy brain space. Sometimes he's going to need breaks.

Galagirl

I took a lot of your advice to heart, and addressed some of it in the letter I wrote for him this morning. I really do appreciate the advice and observations.

 

[anamikanon]

I agree with all of this.

Again I agree. I'm trying..

I have realized how unfair I was to judge him on this. I haven't given him enough credit for what he has done.



I wrote him a letter this morning, and told him that I will step back from this, so he can handle it how he feels he needs to, and that I would be here for him if he needs me. I know I turn into a hover.. Its been my role my whole life ( I took care of and protected my younger brothers from my abusive father). But I recognize this is a problem, and I take the criticism because I do want to improve. Even if we chose not to do Poly, it is still something I want to stop doing. I know I'm not doing a lot of things perhaps the right way, But I WANT to. Im ok with the criticisms, outside observations are helping me realize how tight of a leash I had on him without even realizing it. I don't think My behavior was what caused what she did, shes been doing it for a long time, we only just realized it the other day but suspected it. She is a very needy possessive person, and required hours and hours of his time a day. Can you imagine how he felt, sigh.. two women needing his attention

Im a bit dissapointed in my part in this, I've realized how I have contributed.
Im trying , I really am..

Hug. It really sucks when our reflexive responses are the opposite of what we wish them to be. But with almost two decades in changework, I can promise you that you can chip away at them methodically and every little bit feels good enough to make you feel intoxicated on the freedom. You are tenacious, you are determined to learn. I repeat, this is a huge plus, but the task is huge and your biggest enemy is also you

Changing how you see things has a lot of power - for example is it possible to hover to protect him against your hovering? Bit of a mind bender, but it is possible - you simply change what you're hovering about - instead of it being his interactions, you look out for your interference in his interactions, so to say. You're already keyed in to his interactions - should not be too difficult to train yourself to keep an eye on yourself by tricking your compulsive behavior.

Trick is to take something you already do and change it in a manner that helps you work on your objectives. So you don't suffer from too bad withdrawal symptoms, and you don't sabotage your goal either - better chance of success.

Another idea that could also give some power back in his hands is a conversational "safe word". Tell him that you really want to stop behavior that tries to control him. Keep it objective as opposed to subjective. Dont' use things like controlling him in ways that hurt him and so on. Any control. Tell him to help you spot it. So it isn't about him hesitating to speak out if you hurt him, and it isn't blame on you for being invasive. it becomes him helping you spot something you want to spot - there is no good/bad attached. Simply learning to spot. And create a rule around it (I remembered you like those ) if S says "monkeys balancing dinner plates" (or whatever) you stop saying whatever you were going to say. If you persist again in another way or after some time he can go "monkeys are still balancing dinner plates"

Learning to spot in itself is the "correction" - no rule says you should never say some kind of things - there is no right/wrong, simply an opportunity to check whether you really mean it. Knowing when you say them empowers you to use them as you intend, instead of them running away with the agenda on you. All the times when you don't wish to control will automatically start vanishing as you learn to spot them. No one self-sabotages deliberately. However, the rule about stopping when pointed out is essential, because in the heat of the moment, the mind justifies whatever it compulsively wants to do (and in essence rejects the feedback)

Feel free to ask for help with specific things you'd like to stop or change - I'm full of these tricks.

Hang in there.

 

[Astirarose]

Hug. It really sucks when our reflexive responses are the opposite of what we wish them to be. But with almost two decades in changework, I can promise you that you can chip away at them methodically and every little bit feels good enough to make you feel intoxicated on the freedom. You are tenacious, you are determined to learn. I repeat, this is a huge plus, but the task is huge and your biggest enemy is also you

Changing how you see things has a lot of power - for example is it possible to hover to protect him against your hovering? Bit of a mind bender, but it is possible - you simply change what you're hovering about - instead of it being his interactions, you look out for your interference in his interactions, so to say. You're already keyed in to his interactions - should not be too difficult to train yourself to keep an eye on yourself by tricking your compulsive behavior.

Trick is to take something you already do and change it in a manner that helps you work on your objectives. So you don't suffer from too bad withdrawal symptoms, and you don't sabotage your goal either - better chance of success.

Another idea that could also give some power back in his hands is a conversational "safe word". Tell him that you really want to stop behavior that tries to control him. Keep it objective as opposed to subjective. Dont' use things like controlling him in ways that hurt him and so on. Any control. Tell him to help you spot it. So it isn't about him hesitating to speak out if you hurt him, and it isn't blame on you for being invasive. it becomes him helping you spot something you want to spot - there is no good/bad attached. Simply learning to spot. And create a rule around it (I remembered you like those ) if S says "monkeys balancing dinner plates" (or whatever) you stop saying whatever you were going to say. If you persist again in another way or after some time he can go "monkeys are still balancing dinner plates"

Learning to spot in itself is the "correction" - no rule says you should never say some kind of things - there is no right/wrong, simply an opportunity to check whether you really mean it. Knowing when you say them empowers you to use them as you intend, instead of them running away with the agenda on you. All the times when you don't wish to control will automatically start vanishing as you learn to spot them. No one self-sabotages deliberately. However, the rule about stopping when pointed out is essential, because in the heat of the moment, the mind justifies whatever it compulsively wants to do (and in essence rejects the feedback)

Feel free to ask for help with specific things you'd like to stop or change - I'm full of these tricks.

Hang in there.

Its funny that your brought up the "safe word" because guess what we discussed this afternoon? Lol

And he has applied it at least once

Thank you, this does make me feel better, I was starting to feel like Can I do this. The goals I have, I know I can. I saw the benefits of personal growth pretty early on, and its something I do not want to let go of. Believe it or not since this all started I have made progress, however painstakingly slow.

My husband is amazing because how patient he has been, but he also has seen the benefits in my personal growth, as well as overall benefits for both of us.

But thank you for this post..

Side Note, he loved my letter, gave me a huge long hug..

He has told me several times, that the times he feels closer to me, and that he is getting closer to me, are the times I can just let go and let him do what he feels he needs to do.

Believe it or not I have done this on several occasions. But its been painfully slow for him, and he has so much more patience I think he ever realized he had before. This actually is a good benefit and personal growth he has acquired in this.

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad your letter to husband helped some.

It's ok to be a work in progress. Don't beat yourself up over it. Keep at your goals of personal improvement. Remember this JUST happened. It might not feel comfortable to sit with feelings and weather them out, but sunny days or stormy skies? They all pass in time.

I wrote him a letter this morning, and told him that I will step back from this, so he can handle it how he feels he needs to, and that I would be here for him if he needs me. I know I turn into a hover.. Its been my role my whole life ( I took care of and protected my younger brothers from my abusive father). But I recognize this is a problem, and I take the criticism because I do want to improve. Even if we chose not to do Poly, it is still something I want to stop doing.

Take a break. When rested, maybe you can figure out when you hover around your husband, what triggers that, and what it is you are trying to "protect" him from that you think he cannot handle. Or what you are trying to protect yourself from having to feel or deal with when watching him experience X. (he is sad, he is upset, etc).

Maybe that could help you sort out next steps to try?

If you had an abusive father, maybe you tried to control the environment or placate him so he wouldn't get so upset that he would not lash out at you kids. So now you feel uncomfortable or anxious seeing anyone upset because you worry it will mean doom for you somehow?

If so? And you notice yourself getting all anxious/hover-y and YOU need reassurance that your husband is not going to abuse you or take his feelings out on you or something? Learn to ask for reassurance directly.

Do not try to manage your anxiety indirectly by "hovering" around him trying to get clues as to which way the wind might blow and what might come raining down on you.

Galagirl

 

[Astirarose]

So I haven't said much.

This situation came to a head last night. Not between myself and my husband but between him and his ex-GF.

I think it made us both feel better to actually see what I had been suspecting all along was true.

He had been trying to maintain just a causal friendship with her, rather than just cutting her completely off. But something happened about a week ago, and we were struggling a bit.

He decided that this situation had gotten too convoluted and muddy, for us to try and start fresh with Poly. His choice.

So He decided to let her know he was backing way off for a while.

She went off on him, blamed everything on me, even victimized herself and him (at my hands) and said I was using her to dangle in front of him, so that I could be poly and go out and date while he waits at home for me.

I haven't even attempted to date. Ive attempted to make Poly friends, but not date. I chose not too, because I didnt want to just "distract" myself from working through this. Feel its more important to learn the tools clearly rather than ignore them and distract myself.

She did everything she could to put a wedge between myself and my husband.

To me, it just proved my instincts on her were spot on. My husband also saw this.
All she did actually was bring him and I closer, and for him to trust my instincts just a bit more.

But I think this is finally past us, and now we can concentrate on moving forward. I was afraid this situation would turn either him or myself off to the thought of Poly, but I think it just gave us Both a lot of hard lessons.

We both grew a lot in this situation. I'm sure we have much more to grow.