Communication failures, early babies, cheating and obligations to inform...

[Rickmanger]

So Kelly is there to do hobbies and activities that your wife can't/doesn't do. I hope going out, outdoor activities, brewery hopping and biking makes all the drama and codependency worth it. YOLO.

It's a point. It was somewhat a boil the frog, given how "normal" the times not in the first post were. They just got more extreme every bump...

 

[Rickmanger]

I read the whole thing. Kelly's alcoholism is running the show, and it needs to stop, especially now that there is a baby. I think you need to go to Shaun and tell him everything. He needs to be able to make an informed decision.

This is what I keep coming back to. Uninformed decisions are never as good as an informed one - he has to know, because his choices rely on having the right information.

On a personal note I was involved in a lovely triad 8 years ago. Then it was apparent that the woman was drinking uncontrollably. We all offered to support and help her but she was not helping herself. I went to AlAnon and learned boundaries, as did her spouse (the male part of our triad). She was asked to leave since she was not getting help. The final straw for me was her picking my children up from school and driving them home . . . Drunk. She denied this but had alcohol on her breath and in her coffee mug in the car. This was before we knew it was that bad, and what lead to us realizing she was an out of control alcoholic. I walked away and later so did my male partner.

Yeah... suffice to say they're scared of the same. Or leaving her home alone with the kid.

I would love to say more about what Shaun should or shouldn't do--- but being able to make an informed decision will help him.

I'm sure you agree on the "run the f away" - or would bet money - but yup.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Rick,

That's a very sad situation. From what little I know about alcoholism, Kelly will probably have to hit bottom before she'll consider turning her life around. As long as she can keep things limping along, she will continue to do the cycle with which she's comfortable. I don't want to raise the word homeless, but that's probably how hard the bottom will have to be when she hits it. You said it yourself: She's there to have a place to live -- that's it. As long as she has a place to live, she will have the means and opportunity to slowly destroy herself -- and I believe she will do it. I also think she will drag some people (e.g. Shaun, Mel, you, the newborn) down with her. It's not that she doesn't care, it's just that right now, alcohol is the only thing for which she's capable of having any feelings.

I wish there was an easy answer.
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

If you and your husband sit down and have the real conversations... that helps. And yes, I realize that is exactly what I need to do here - doesn't mean it won't hurt or be hard some times.

Just wanted to double-check... you DID talk to Shaun, right? Or are you still grappling with HOW to do it?

This is what I keep coming back to. Uninformed decisions are never as good as an informed one - he has to know, because his choices rely on having the right information.

It kind of sounds like you want to do it in person, but Shaun needs the info NOW. So what's your second-best method?

Timing was utter shite, as they say, as there was NO way I wasn't going to have that conversation face to face.

There's video call. That's also face to face. Text to set a time. Preferably Friday evening after work (or whatever his work schedule is), so he has the weekend to digest/recover from the video call, and not have to work the next day. Then, when the appointment time comes, have the talk. Write it out if you're worried about losing your place or getting emotional, then you can read it to him.

GG

 

[MeeraReed]

This is a lot. I'm sorry you are going through this. However, this situation has occurred because you and Shaun have spent decades enabling Kelly's drinking. This situation isn't particularly complex when framed that way.

Kelly is an alcoholic and she has needed help since at least 2009. You and Shaun have both glossed over this, dismissing it as, "Oh, Kelly was lucky to avoid a DUI back then," instead of being alarmed that she drove drunk (endangering others, as well as herself) and taking it as a call for needed action.

Shaun spent his marriage picking fights with Kelly about her hobbies, and avoiding going to serious therapy (either for himself or both of them), rather than addressing his wife's alcoholism. It sounds like he never went to an AA meeting himself (or similar support group) or attempted to get Kelly the help she needed.

When Kelly finally got a DUI for real and lost being able to drive completely, again Shaun did not address the underlying alcoholism. He could have told Kelly he was leaving if she didn't go into rehab, for example. Instead he just got mad every time she Ubered home drunk, as if the issue were her staying out late and partying, rather than having a serious underlying addiction that requires a serious mental health intervention. (Staying out late and partying would be the symptoms, not the cause.)

Meanwhile, Shaun seemingly decided to mostly ignore Kelly while continuing to live with her, while moving on emotionally with Mel, deciding to have a child with Mel, and "buying Mel a ring." What does "buying Mel a ring" mean when Shaun is legally married to Kelly? Did he ever have a talk with Kelly about whether they wanted to remain married or not, or about creating some type of arrangement where Shaun has marriage-like entanglements with both Kelly and Mel?

You say Mel hates Kelly. And Kelly seemingly has been miserable for years watching Shaun and Mel be together in her own house while she and Shaun no longer have a sexual relationship. Why did Shaun just passively carry on with a situation where his alcoholic wife is miserable and his girlfriend hates his wife? Why decide to bring a child into that household? Why not just divorce Kelly years ago?

To me, it seems like Shaun just decided to ignore Kelly and maybe hope she would go away. (Buying a ring for Mel and not directly talking about the implications with Kelly seems like he just wanted to push Kelly to leave him without him having to initiate it.)

And you... you claim to be surprised at learning the true extent of Kelly's alcoholism, but you've known her for decades... She's spent years avoiding DUIs and then getting a DUI. Heathy people don't just get DUIs.

This reminds me so much of my ex's friend group, a subculture based completely around recreational drug use. Many people in the group had serious issues with substance abuse. Yet the dynamics of their behavior was such that everyone else claimed to be surprised when it turned out someone wasn't just "fun," but had a serious problem that was destroying their life and relationships.

I literally heard people say, "But I don't understand how this happened! I partied with her every weekend for years and she seemed totally fine!"

It's significant to me that your title to this thread mentions absolutely everything except the actual problem, the alcoholism.

Kelly's communication failures are directly related to her out-of-control drinking and underlying emotional issues.

Kelly's "cheating" behavior is merely a symptom of the fact that she is drunk all the time.

Also, I don't understand your emphasis on the "cheating," as if that is the biggest problem and the thing you need to talk to Shaun about. If Kelly and Shaun haven't been sexually intimate in years, why does she need his permission to fool around with other people?

I get that Shaun would have needed to give his permission for his wife to start dating his longtime best friend/best man in their wedding. I get that you didn't understand at the time how poorly Kelly had communicated with Shaun about the start of your relationship.

But I don't understand why Kelly fooling around with others is such a big problem. (It is the least of the problems going on here!)

I think I just don't understand swinger mentality, or the appeal of a closed quad. It just means that if one person is unhappy in the quad dynamic (or has a sexually dead marriage), they are trapped and don't have the freedom to find other poly relationships.

Swinging is very focused on preserving the original dyad couples. Most of your post is about Shaun and Kelly's relationship, instead of YOUR relationship with Kelly. What difference does it make if Shaun and Kelly have had a terrible marriage for years, other than indicating that Shaun and Kelly are both emotionally unhealthy and would prefer avoidance and denial to dealing with their issues?

Like, you seem very upset about Shaun and Kelly's marriage, rather than about what YOU are going to about YOUR girlfriend's serious alcohol problem. Some of that is because of the wonky boundaries that occur when you date your best friend's wife. You're stuck in the role of being unsure how to give your best friend advice about his marriage, because YOU are in a relationship with his wife.

It's not your problem to figure out what Shaun and Mel are going to do about the baby and their living situation. (Maybe Mel can move in with her mom until Shaun gets Kelly out of the house.) But it IS your problem to figure out what YOU are going to do about Kelly's alcoholism.

Like, if you want to help, could you do the legwork of finding a rehab facility, figuring out how it could be paid for, insurance, etc.? (I am hoping that when you mentioned Shaun "moved into the hospital" with Mel, it means that you're not in the US, but in a country with actual good healthcare.)

Then you can offer Kelly the choice: she goes into rehab or you walk.

 

[Rickmanger]

Just wanted to double-check... you DID talk to Shaun, right? Or are you still grappling with HOW to do it?

Sending a message to have a chat this weekend - now that things are stable.

It kind of sounds like you want to do it in person, but Shaun needs the info NOW. So what's your second-best method?

There's video call. That's also face to face. Text to set a time. Preferably Friday evening after work (or whatever his work schedule is), so he has the weekend to digest/recover from the video call, and not have to work the next day. Then, when the appointment time comes, have the talk. Write it out if you're worried about losing your place or getting emotional, then you can read it to him.

Oh, I'm writing it out for sure. But yeah, I want this to be face to face, and Friday/Saturday is my target for that reason (and more flexible schedules).

 

[Rickmanger]

This is a lot and I'm sorry you are going through this.

However, this situation has occurred because you and Shaun have spent decades enabling Kelly's drinking.

This situation isn't particularly complex when framed that way.

That's... fair.

Kelly is an alcoholic and she has needed help since at least 2009. You and Shaun have both glossed over this, dismissing it as, "Oh, Kelly was lucky to avoid a DUI back then" instead of being alarmed that she drove drunk (endangering others as well as herself) and taking it as a call for needed action.

As a tiny bit of defense - we all went separate ways for a good middle-chunk of the 2010s, so I found out about a lot of this after the fact (I had a job with a ton of international travel, we caught up about once a quarter and I saw facebook updates).

Shaun spent his marriage picking fights with Kelly about her hobbies and avoiding going to serious therapy (either for himself or both of them) rather than addressing his wife's alcoholism. It sounds like he never went to an AA meeting himself (or similar support group) or attempted to get Kelly the help she needed.

He is now, but correct.

When Kelly finally got a DUI for real and lost being able to drive completely, again Shaun did not address the underlying alcoholism. He could have told Kelly he was leaving if she didn't go into rehab, for example. Instead he just got mad every time she Ubered home drunk, as if the issue were her staying out late and partying rather than having a serious underlying addiction that requires a serious mental health intervention. (Staying out late and partying would be the symptoms, not the cause).

And ignoring the symptoms of someone who would really rather be anywhere else than where she is now.

Meanwhile, Shaun seemingly decided to mostly ignore Kelly while continuing to live with her, while moving on emotionally with Mel, deciding to have a child with Mel and "buying Mel a ring." What does buying Mel a ring mean when Shaun is legally married to Kelly? Did he ever have a talk with Kelly about whether they wanted to remain married or not, or about creating some type of arrangement where Shaun has marriage-like entanglements with both Kelly and Mel?

No, they didn't - not really.

You say Mel hates Kelly. And Kelly seemingly has been miserable for years watching Shaun and Mel be together in her own house while she and Shaun no longer have a sexual relationship. Why did Shaun just passively carry on with a situation where his alcoholic wife is miserable and his girlfriend hates his wife? Why decide to bring a child into that household? Why not just divorce Kelly years ago?

I really wish I knew. I can only guess that the sense of failure or fear of judgement from outside made that difficult. I can only guess though. I know he wishes he hadn't.

Like, to me it seems Shaun just decided to ignore Kelly and maybe hope she would go away. (Buying a ring for Mel and not directly talking about the implications with Kelly seems like he just wanted to push Kelly to leave him without him having to initiate it).

Very possibly right.

And you...you claim to be surprised at learning the true extent of Kelly's alcoholism, but...you've known her for decades...she's spent years avoiding DUIs and then getting a DUI. Heathy people don't just get DUIs.

This reminds me so much of my ex's friend group. A subculture based completely around recreational drug use. Many people in the group had serious issues with substance abuse. Yet the dynamics of their behavior was such that everyone else claimed to be surprised when it turned out someone wasn't just "fun" but had a serious problem that was destroying their life and relationships.

That actually strikes closer to home than you'd think; there is an industry connection there for sure.

I literally heard people say, "But I don't understand how this happened! I partied with her every weekend for years and she seemed totally fine!"

It's significant to me that your title to this thread mentions absolutely everything except the actual problem, the alcoholism.

Kelly's communication failures are directly related to her out of control drinking and underlying emotional issues.

Kelly's "cheating" behavior is merely a symptom of the fact that she is drunk all the time.

Also, I don't understand your emphasis on the "cheating" as if that is the biggest problem and the thing you need to talk to Shaun about. If Kelly and Shaun haven't been sexually intimate in years, why does she need his permission to fool around with other people?

I get that Shaun would have needed to give his permission for his wife to start dating his longtime best friend/best man in their wedding. I get that you didn't understand at the time how poorly Kelly had communicated with Shaun about the start of your relationship.

But I don't understand why Kelly fooling around with others is such a big problem. (It is the least of the problems going on here!)

It violates the core agreement they had of a closed quad - it's yet another boundary violation that shows someone's actual care and feelings towards a situation. At least in my mind - if that makes sense? It's not that she wanted to add more people or do something else - it's that she agreed to talk first, and then... didn't. Multiple times.

I think I just don't understand swinger mentality? Or the appeal of a closed quad--it just means that if one person is unhappy in the quad dyanamic (or has a sexually dead marriage), they are trapped and don't have the freedom to find other poly relationships.

You're not wrong - at all.

Swinging is very focused on preserving the original dyad couples. Most of your post is about Shaun and Kelly's relationship, instead of YOUR relationship with Kelly. What difference does it make if Shaun and Kelly have had a terrible marriage for years? (Other than indicating that Shaun and Kelly are both emotionally unhealthy and would prefer avoidance and denial to dealing with their issues).

Because it ends up impacting my relationship with her, it impacts the group of friends who've been getting together regularly now for years (for not-drinking things!), and it frustrates the living hell out of me.

Like, you seem very upset about Shaun and Kelly's marriage rather than about what YOU are going to about YOUR girlfriend's serious alcohol problem.

I want her to get therapy and I want her to get help - but I also know she has to be the one to choose those things, and while I encourage them (perhaps not as well as I could have in the past), I can't force her to choose them. She has to choose.

Some of that is because of the wonky boundaries that occur when you date your best friend's wife. You're stuck in the role of being unsure how to give your best friend advice about his marriage, because YOU are in a relationship with his wife.

Yeah. That's ... yeah.

It's not your problem to figure out what Shaun and Mel are going to do about the baby and their living situation. (Maybe Mel can move in with her mom until Shaun gets Kelly out of the house). But it IS your problem to figure out what YOU are going to do about Kelly's alcoholism.

Like, if you want to help, can you do the legwork of finding a rehab facility, for example? And figuring out how it could be paid for, insurance, etc? (I am hoping that when you mentioned Shaun "moved into the hospital" with Mel, it means that you're not in the US but in a country with actual good healthcare).

Already working on it. And sadly, USA - just good insurance.

Then, you can offer Kelly the choice: she goes into rehab or you walk.

fair

 

[Rickmanger]

Well, the conversation went well. As well as one that emotionally charged can. And ... it's coming. I left some of the extra play out - but he knew it needed to end, and it's going to end... probably in the next couple of weeks he'll tell her (once family is gone). Sigh.