Confused Hinge

[Shido]

To be honest, I don't even know where to start with this...pardon if it gets ridiculously wordy but it seems this is the appropriate place to just word-vomit the entire situation.

For back ground purposes, I am a demisexual male with Asperger's. I am also a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.

With that shenanigans out of the way, I have a rather...awkward relationship thing going on. A number of years ago I ended up pursuing a relationship with my straight male best friend (We'll call him S). After nearly two years of very up and down drama, I called it quits. I did so for numerous reasons, the least of which not being his infidelity. This was my first relationship and only sexual experience. The infidelity was a major blow to my confidence and trust.

S never maliciously did anything to hurt me or the relationship. I recognize in hind sight that he was dealing with a lot of heavy personal shit at the time and that it was horrible timing for both of us. That said, I don't excuse him his behavior. I simply recognize that he's a lot different now.

After terminating this relationship, I began a relationship with a woman I met online (she'll be B). We have been together and monogamous for roughly four years. The issue is I still had/have a lot of unresolved feelings toward S. It's wrapped up in a lot of awkward resentment because of the infidelity and guilt because of my relationship with B.

Eventually, after a year of gut wrenching guilt and emotional torment, I ended up shoving my foot firmly in my mouth and told B about my still lingering feelings for S. I was absolutely clear with her that I had no intention of pursuing him and that I was 100% committed to her. After talking about it, she hit me with something I never considered. She suggested polyamory.

For the record, both B and S have been in polyamorous relationships before. I have always been monogamous. I'm one of those people who considers flirting with others to be a transgression. Needless to say, this suggestion blind sided me and was going to require a lot of consideration.

Regardless of what decision I would come to later on, B insisted that S had a right to know my feelings and that it was something being considered. After we all discussed it, B and S both stated that they were open to forming a poly V.

After months of careful deliberation I decided we could give it a 'trial run'. I had/have a lot of concerns. I know very little about polyamory. I've done a lot of research, but unfortunately the majority of what I find seems downright creepy and exploitative. The more I read, the more I feel like a selfish jackass. It also seems uncommon for a male hinge to be involved with mixed genders. We've all talked about our expectations, our boundaries and our firm rules. We've all agreed to abide by these. But I still feel like I'm stupidly tripping around a mine field.

S and I still have a lot of issues we're going to need to work out individually if this is ever going to work. A lot of trust has been lost. I have a lot of resentment to work through and I feel like he should have to prove to me that it's worth it. But then I feel like a hypocrite. Do I have a right to demand that S is monogamous when I'm not? Can I expect him to devote everything to the relationship when I'm dividing my time and attention?

I'm just terrified of fucking this up. S and B are the two most precious, important people in my life. I don't think I could stand to lose either of them, much less both of them.

 

[london]

What do you find creepy and exploitative?

Hmm, if S and you hadn't had the break and you were just getting over infidelity, i would say you have more grounds to stop him seeing other people but i would still feel that it wasn't much of a solution. Given what you've described, I think you have to trust him if you want this to work. Or you have to act as if you trust him and hope your feelings follow suit.

I am also on the autistic spectrum.

 

[Shido]

50 year old couples looking for 20 something unicorns who also cook and clean are a little creepy to me. Dudes who brag about multiple women in a misogynist manner are pretty creepy. Those are real situations I've seen. Also in general I'm just ridiculously vanilla. If my relationship experience/knowledge had a culinary equivalent, it would be bread and water.

Do you feel that since I have a girlfriend, I can't expect him not to...?

 

[london]

Things like creepy old people hunting young people they can mould isn't exclusively a poly problem. It is creepy though. Misogny isn't a poly problem either. Someone's misogny can be expressed by the way they structure their polyamorous relationships though. So yeah, you do still have to dodge the douchebags.

Monogamy or anything really, only works if the people involved want to be monogamous. If he opts to only see you, fine, but you prohibiting him from seeing others whilst you have a girlfriend is a little unfair. Right now, he should be putting in effort to get you guys back on track. Some people might be able to give that the attention it needs and be forming bonds with others simultaneously. He might be one of those but I would definitely want to see him giving us the focus we need if it's important to him. I think that's what you should be concerned about. Is he doing that?

 

[london]

Oh and vanilla usually means not kinky. Poly is a relationship orientation, not a kink as such. So you might be poly and vanilla, mono and vanilla, poly and kinky or mono and kinky.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

B insisted that S had a right to know my feelings and that it was something being considered.

Personally, I would say that was up to you. They're your feelings to share with whomever you want, or to not share. Encouraging and supporting you in sharing them is fine, but I wouldn't describe it as "his right to know."

I've done a lot of research, but unfortunately the majority of what I find seems downright creepy and exploitative. The more I read, the more I feel like a selfish jackass.

Gosh, what have you been reading??

It also seems uncommon for a male hinge to be involved with mixed genders.

In general, openly bisexual men are far less common than openly bisexual women. People can understand (sometimes) the whole "I don't feel attracted to women at all" thing, and thereby accept (sort of) that men can be gay. But many bisexual men experience pressure to suppress their feelings for men, since unlike gay men, they are able to have fully functional relationships with women. So because it's easier for them to "hide" and because our culture is so hostile towards bisexuals (the queer communities are usually the worst for this), it's "safer" to just appear straight.

A lot of trust has been lost. I have a lot of resentment to work through and I feel like he should have to prove to me that it's worth it. But then I feel like a hypocrite.

Am I correctly interpreting that "prove to me that it's worth it" means "prove that he can be monogamous?"

Except, he's not monogamous. What is to be gained by him proving that he can suppress his desires? What about the inevitable resentment from the double-standard?

The thing about getting people to do something they don't want to do is that either way, you lose. If they do it, they're likely to resent you for it. If they don't do it, then you lose trust and respect.

Do I have a right to demand that S is monogamous when I'm not? Can I expect him to devote everything to the relationship when I'm dividing my time and attention?

In a word, no. You do not have the right to "demand" anything of him at all. That would violate his right to autonomy. Making demands of any type is the quickest way to earn resentment.

What you do have the right to do is express your feelings (hurt? anger?) and your needs (trust? honesty?). You have the right to REQUEST (not demand) that he agree to monogamy for a while if you believe it will help regain trust.

And with these rights come your responsibilities. You have a responsibility to respect his autonomy. You have a responsibility to accept his choice. You have a responsibility to be accountable for your feelings.

What can you expect? Nothing. Nothing at all. Not until you sit down and make some agreements. Then, you can expect him to uphold his agreement. That's it. If he does not agree, willingly and voluntarily, to your request for monogamy, then it's best to accept that and decide whether you're able to be in a relationship with him if he's not going to be monogamous.

In my life, I've found that regaining trust has more to do with honesty than the specific action that you're being dishonest about. It's not the "I slept with someone else" part that made you not trust him, it's the "we didn't agree to this before it happened" part. In other words, it's the lying.

I've had my trust violated pretty severely. They went and got help about the problem, and I so thought it wasn't going to happen again. Then it did. At first I was angry because I believed I had been lied to. But I tried really hard to understand where they were coming from when they did the actions that I didn't like, and what needs they had that were being met by doing that activity. I also came to realize that my belief that it wasn't going to happen again had been an assumption on my part, an expectation that hadn't actually been agreed to. We discussed the situation, this time me understanding why they wanted to keep doing the action as a means to meet that need. After the understanding, I was perfectly ok with them doing it, as long as precautions were in place so that my needs for security and stability could be met.

 

[GalaGirl]

Regardless of what decision I would come to later on, B insisted that S had a right to know my feelings and that it was something being considered.

Nope. Your feelings belong to you. WHO you want to share them is also your decision.

If she means, S could be made aware of your feelings if you are seriously thinking about asking to date him again so it can go well? Then yeah. Can't date a person without them knowing you want to date them. Limit of the universe.

If she actually means S has a RIGHT to know your feelings at any time when you are not even in relationship with him? Nope. You don't have to be a wide open book to anyone you don't want to be.

After we all discussed it, B and S both stated that they were open to forming a poly V.

We've all talked about our expectations, our boundaries and our firm rules. We've all agreed to abide by these.

But I still feel like I'm stupidly tripping around a mine field.

It takes TIME for the "new normal" to become normal.

Right now you have a steady GF and happen to be newly dating a new guy in a new relationship model. It is your first polyship as a hinge. Even without the BF being an ex -- that is challenging.

All that stuff takes time to acclimate to. You will feel weird. It's normal to feel weird.

S and I still have a lot of issues we're going to need to work out individually if this is ever going to work. A lot of trust has been lost. I have a lot of resentment to work through and I feel like he should have to prove to me that it's worth it.

Yup. Resolve the old before moving on to the new. Sounds reasonable to want him to demonstrate trustworthy behavior for a while so you can learn/be willing to trust him again. You guys could sort out "WHAT behaviors? For HOW LONG? HOW do we know the (making ammends) time is complete and the slate is clean?" details together.

But then I feel like a hypocrite. Do I have a right to demand that S is monogamous when I'm not?

You may request. You cannot DEMAND.

But as part of making amends with you, if you would like to see him rebuild trust by not dating new people for X weeks/months -- you are always free to ask if he's willing to do that behavior. You can always ask. You are in a (negotiate the terms) time here. So... could negotiate!

If he has regular dating partners you aren't asking him to break up or anything. Just don't be adding NEW people here right now til you and he are steady.

You have every right to state what you would like/not like as part of making ammends and request that he consider his willing/able to do that.

He has every right to accept or decline after he considers it. Perhaps he has some requests to make of YOU for YOU to consider doing.

Like I said -- it's negotiation time. So... could negotiate the terms for the (make ammends) time before you enter it into THAT process. ASK what you can expect of him that he is willing to do. TELL him what you are willing to do and what HE can expect from you.

Then your expectations of each other can be realistic, and understood by both.

Can I expect him to devote everything to the relationship when I'm dividing my time and attention?

I think he knows you play hinge here. He knows GF exists. They already agreed to try this.

The relationship you are asking him to tend is the (You + BF) one. It is reasonable to expect him to help tend to that with you and make his best effort in doing so. But before you go expecting it from him... you could ask it formally. "Can I expect you to help tend to the (me + you) tier of the relationship with your best efforts?" Then he has opportunity to say "Yes, you can expect me to do that." Or opportunity to tweak or clarify the expectation first. You both seem to want to be here so... keep sorting the details.

Every polyship is made up of the smaller mini relationships inside it. It's the polymath.

To me you seem anxious... which is normal. Again it takes TIME for "the new normal" to feel normal.

You sound like you are doing ok, being open and honest with your poly people. Carry on. Have some faith that if you all continue to behave in open, honest, forthright fashion in your behaviors -- whatever bumps happen in this transitional time you all will be able to handle it.

Could give yourself and your feelings some time to adjust here. Could accept that "Yes! We want to be in polyship!" is only the start of a series of conversations and milestones. There's still more conversations to be had. You in all a work in progress right now.

Hang in there!

GL!
Galagirl

 

[Shido]

Thank you for your replies. It seems I really need to clarify some things with S's cheating though. Quite frankly, he's a door mat. He lets people get away with treating him horribly or making unrealistic expectations of him and he just shrugs it off like it doesn't matter. The cheating in particular was because he was pressured by a mutual friend at a very vulnerable time in his life. He has a history of allowing things sexually simply because he's not good with saying no. Its not that he's naturally poly. At least he's never said so. He just doesn't seem to mind sharing someone since he's not the type of person who likes constantly being together. He doesn't like a lot of attention and I honestly can't imagine him juggling multiple partners.

He's gotten a lot better with not allowing people to just paw all over him, but it's something I had a lot of trouble dealing with when we were only friends and I definitely won't accept it in a relationship. If he doesn't have enough respect for himself to stop it, he damn well better have enough for me. I can't be his parent or his bodyguard. I have to be able trust him to care enough about himself on his own.

I don't put the onus entirely on him for this. I recognize its rooted in some long running personal issues and that being bitchy about it at him definitely doesn't help. If he ever said he wanted to pursue a romantic relationship with a woman while we are involved, I wouldn't blame him (unless he's acted on it some way) but I wouldn't be able to do it. But I don't see that being an issue. He hasn't had a relationship since we broke up years ago and hasn't seemed interested in finding one.

He's seemed excited about everything and didn't balk at me requesting monogamy. I just somehow feel like a jerk in all of this. I don't want B to feel like she's not good enough. She says she doesn't, but it still worries me. I don't want S to feel like he's simply convenient since B is so far away. He says he doesn't, but yea...I unfortunately can't read their minds. I just want to do all of this right for the parties involved.

Relationships are a foreign language to me on a good day. I've been worrying myself literally sick over all of this. I feel like they've just handed me the cockpit controls and I have no idea what I'm doing. We're all going to crash!

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Thank you for your replies. It seems I really need to clarify some things with S's cheating though. Quite frankly, he's a door mat. He lets people get away with treating him horribly or making unrealistic expectations of him and he just shrugs it off like it doesn't matter.

Hm. Gralson is a "people pleaser." He doesn't like to say no. He prefers to do things he doesn't really want to do if it will make other people's lives easier.

The problem with that is that you're always wondering whether they're saying "yes" because they really want to help you, or whether it's because they don't want to disappoint.

Ideally, Gralson and S would wake-up tomorrow magically able to say "no" when they want to. But this is reality, and that ain't gonna happen. So in the meantime, I make it my job to ensure my requests are heard as requests and not demands. If I get even a slight sense that he's "giving in" then I ask him three different ways whether he's sure, making absolutely certain that he understands I won't be hurt or offended if he says no. There have been times where I've had to go so far as refusing to let him do something for me after he's said yes and I got the sense he didn't really want to. At the time it seemed utterly ridiculous ("after you" "no, after you" "no! after YOU!" ... battle of Canadians), but he's later thanked me for letting him off the hook.

He's gotten a lot better with not allowing people to just paw all over him, but it's something I had a lot of trouble dealing with when we were only friends and I definitely won't accept it in a relationship. If he doesn't have enough respect for himself to stop it, he damn well better have enough for me.

The only reason people can genuinely change themselves is for themselves. Anything we do for someone else will be superficial and impermanent.

It's unrealistic to expect him to go against his nature. It's great that he's learning more assertiveness. But that's great for him. The benefits to you are collateral.

I'm curious though... at the same time, you say that he gives in easily... and then you say he agreed to your monogamy request without balking. How can you be sure he really means it, that he isn't giving in just to please you and win you back?

 

[Shido]

The problem with that is that you're always wondering whether they're saying "yes" because they really want to help you, or whether it's because they don't want to disappoint.

This describes him fairly well.

The only reason people can genuinely change themselves is for themselves. Anything we do for someone else will be superficial and impermanent. It's unrealistic to expect him to go against his nature. It's great that he's learning more assertiveness. But that's great for him. The benefits to you are collateral.

If everyone left him to decide what he wanted to do for himself, he'd drift off to sea in a boat and die of exposure. I fully recognize that he has to do things for himself and that they have to mean something to him, but a lot of his tendencies are dangerous to himself and me. We live together and pretty much all his bad choices affect me. I do accept a very large portion of his tendencies as just him being him and I decided I was ok with them a very long time ago. But the damaging ones I can't let slide. And since he doesn't seem to care enough for his sake, I put my foot down for my sake.

I'm curious though... at the same time, you say that he gives in easily... and then you say he agreed to your monogamy request without balking. How can you be sure he really means it, that he isn't giving in just to please you and win you back?

I have no way of knowing that other than his say so. Which is admittedly spotty. Which is why this is a 'trial' basis. I gave him clear perimeters of the trial and things I would consider to break it. He agreed. If he changes his mind, he's welcome to say so. But considering the lazy streak he has, if he's not being genuine, I'll know fairly quickly.

A lot of the issue comes down to I have very little patience for a lot of his antics (or emotionally charged situations). Some of that is due to my Asperger's, some of it is just who I am. We've known each other for 15 years, so none of this is news to either of us. I don't want to be his babysitter and I don't want to nag him. His life is his own so long as his decisions don't ruin mine. I've told him my rational and specific criteria for maintaining a relationship with me beyond friendship. Its up to him to decide if that's something he can sustain. I don't know if those things are usual or would meet approval of most poly people...but they're what I need.

My issue in this is attempting to maintain both relationships with equal levels of care and respect. Neither of my relationships, either with S or B have ever been what I would call traditional or usual. I suppose the same holds true still. It just feels disorienting trying to find a compass when I never seem to fit anywhere.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

If everyone left him to decide what he wanted to do for himself, he'd drift off to sea in a boat and die of exposure. I fully recognize that he has to do things for himself and that they have to mean something to him, but a lot of his tendencies are dangerous to himself and me.

I don't want to be his babysitter and I don't want to nag him.

It sounds like you're taking responsibility for him, whether you intend to or not. Question is, what is he learning when you do this?

I used to do that for Gralson financially, but eventually we realized that the only way to learn financial responsibility is to make financial decisions and live with the consequences. Still, I was afraid that letting him have free reign over the money would put is in the poor house. So now we have a new arrangement. In addition to his input on major financial decisions, he has a budget over which he has free reign, but he has to live with the consequences of his spending within that budget (e.g. "Shit I spent all my money drinking last night, now I don't have money for smokes."). It meets his need for autonomy and it meets my need for financial stability.

His life is his own so long as his decisions don't ruin mine. I've told him my rational and specific criteria for maintaining a relationship with me beyond friendship. Its up to him to decide if that's something he can sustain. I don't know if those things are usual or would meet approval of most poly people...but they're what I need.

Sounds pretty reasonable. My only word of caution is not to confuse your needs with strategies for getting your needs met. For example, you need trust, honesty, stability, communication. Strategies for meeting those needs could be showing that he can be monogamous for a period of time and telling you what he's feeling.

 

[GalaGirl]

I've told him my rational and specific criteria for maintaining a relationship with me beyond friendship. Its up to him to decide if that's something he can sustain.

Pretty much. Ball is in his court. He either accepts the terms or not.

Then if you enter into polyship, you come to see if he can deliver or not.

I don't know if those things are usual or would meet approval of most poly people...but they're what I need.

"Other people" are not in this polyship. You 3 are. You 3 could know what you 3 could need.

My issue in this is attempting to maintain both relationships with equal levels of care and respect.

And are you able to respect this S person? I am baffled when you go on to describe his behaviors.

He sounds like awesome polypartner material HOW? Why pick him?

Esp this part:

a lot of his tendencies are dangerous to himself and me.

Why are you taking up with a person who is willing to put himself and you in danger?

GG

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Shido,

I'm kind of lame and don't have much to add here at the moment, but I did want to say hi and welcome you to the forum. I've been loosely diagnosed myself as having "a mild case of" Asperger's, so at least I can sympathize and say, "What comes easily for other people in relationships, doesn't come easily for me."

I guess I'd suggest moving into this nice and slow with S and B, and have an exit strategy (for amicable parting) in case something doesn't work out. I'm in a V, and am one of the arms/ends of the V, and yet I don't feel any special need for an additional partner for me. So I know it's possible for different people to content themselves with different things. Personally, I like the extra time to myself that sharing a romantic partner brings me. I'd probably hate being a hinge because you have to fuss over both romantic partners so much and so often (like, constantly! ).

Looking around on Polyamory.com and reading various threads here should help you feel more confident about polyamory. Most of our members are pretty sane and fair-minded, and the exceptions quickly get called out. This site (IMO) is rather douchebag-unfriendly ...

I wonder if a peek at our Life stories and blogs board would be of help. Just reading other people's stories and seeing what they struggle with, as well as how vastly different one person's solutions may be from another person's, can help. The Golden Nuggets board is also helpful as it instructs you in a lot of the "basics about polyamory."

Ultimately, I don't think life and relationships offer any no-crash guarantees. As much as you value S and B, you still have to decide whether to "keep them in a glass box on the mantle," or enter into an organic and rather imperfect relationship with them. It's all but guaranteed that all three of you will goof up from time to time. Sometimes when you're in a race and fall down, you just use that as a challenge to get back up again and carry on. That's probably what you'll have to do, and more than one time too.

I don't mean to scare you out of attempting a polyamorous life; I just think it's best to know what you can realistically expect. I mean monogamous relationships can't be made bombproof either, so why should polyamorous relationships get to be so safe? Every kind of relationship comes with its own set of drawbacks and perils.

Yes, an "MMF V" is a little unusual; "FMF V's" are more common and "MFM V's" are more common still, I think. I'm "lucky enough to be in the most common group," but I don't think that something is necessarily a bad thing just because it's unusual. Sometimes the unusual is what makes processes like evolution successful.

I should also note that I'm pretty "bread and water vanilla," as is the hinge of my V and even the other guy in my V to an extent. We've been together as a poly unit since early 2006 and while we had some rough sailing during our first few years, our "forming" and "storming" stages have calmed into our "norming" stage and I consider us proof that polyamory can be done, and even that "vanilla polyamory" can be done. So don't worry too much about that part.

Anyway, I hope this site can be of help to you, and that we can answer many/most of your questions. Welcome aboard!

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Still, I was afraid that letting him have free reign over the money would put is in the poor house. So now we have a new arrangement. In addition to his input on major financial decisions, he has a budget over which he has free reign, but he has to live with the consequences of his spending within that budget (e.g. "Shit I spent all my money drinking last night, now I don't have money for smokes."). It meets his need for autonomy and it meets my need for financial stability...

MrS and I have had some version of this arrangement for the last 18 years (it has evolved as our situation has changed) which has worked REALLY well for us...and Dude and I have recently come up with a version of this as well.

 

[wildflowers]

This may not be a major point, but I am surprised that you describe S as a straight male and then have hopes for him being monogamous with you. In fact I'm surprised he's considering being with you at all. Am I missing something or is his orientation more flexible than you described?

 

[LovingRadiance]

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