Creating a Poly V

Inaniel

Inaniel

Well-known member
I don't know if I registered here with intention; I don't know anything anymore. I'm at a conference for work and finally have time to breathe; that's all I know.

I thought about calling this thread "The Great Experiment" because my partner and I are embarking on a new journey by introducing a new partner into our lives. This was something we occasionally fantasized about and though we were open to the multitude of different ways it could look, we didn't set up our relationship for it; I don't think we knew how too. All of my preconceptions failed to prepare me for falling in love with Abby.

I have had an open relationship for about 5 years with my primary, Jasmine. We also have a beautiful child together. I have had long term girlfriends but never with someone I wanted to bring into the family. Jasmine has always had priority and veto power over my secondary relationships; which made sense before. However, as I continue fall in love with Abby I find myself wondering how Jasmine and I could ever make Abby feel like she is a part of our family if one partner has that much power and priority over the other? At this point, I really don’t know how people make the primary/secondary thing work for anything but casual side-relationships.

When I ask myself who has my heart, the answer is both. I love them both so much my head is spinning. When I am with Abby, I miss Jasmine and my daughter; and when I am with my family I miss Abby; and when I am alone, I miss them all intensely.

This process has been fraught with insecurities, feelings of being left-out or uncared for, power struggles, and jealousy; sometimes I feel like none of us know what the hell we are doing. I don't have any friends to support me, my extended family doesn't approve so I haven't told them. I've grown quiet around friends and family because I can't talk about my relationships, the thing I spend most of my time thinking about. I feel like it’s taking a toll on my social life, and my health.

I am constantly worrying about the way Abby and Jasmine are engaging. I am extremely protective of the people I love, and I find myself playing monkey in the middle, trying to defend everyone. I know the relationship between Jasmine and Abby will not be perfect, and I just need to let it go. When I'm not talking amongst the three of us, I'm talking emotional upkeep with Jasmine, and if I'm not doing that, I'm talking emotional upkeep with Abby. Did I mention I'm a dad and have a career? Where did my time go? Will I ever get it back?

I'm really struggling. I have two women who want to give me the world, and somehow I'm unhappy. I know I want this, and I know I need help. But I don’t know where to start, so I’m just going to pour my mind into this keyboard.

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Abby identifies as monogamous, and has decided to be exclusive to me. I have decided not to date, I don't have time to anyway. Abby has expressed it would make her uncomfortable if I dated other people, she would feel I'm detaching from her. I can see what she means, I only have so much time to go around.

Jasmine remains open but is unsure how she feels about seeing other people right now. She has even said sometimes she feels like she might be monogamous. She is very distracted right now with being a mom and starting a career.

Abby and Jasmine both want this relationship, Abby has expressed that although she feels monogamous in her own dealings, she fell in love with me knowing that Jasmine and my daughter were forever a part of my life. Jasmine has been very understanding of my love for Abby, appreciates her, and wants her in our life. Right now we are trying to establish a Poly V; mostly for integration and overlap of my time; and also because I like being around all of the people I love in one place.

My first issue involves agreeing to exclusivity with Abby (Jasmine excluded); I already feel chained down. It’s not that I want new partners, but I want freedom to choose. I do not wish to connect with anyone else romantically right now; I’m saturated. But I feel like making this agreement with Abby undermines what I worked so hard to create with Jasmine. This thought is especially frustrating because I'm enjoying the stability of having a closed group right now. Uhg…

And while we are on the topic, here is something else. Abby is exclusive to me, it is now an expectation, so if she slips up and messes around with someone, how is that then supposed to make me feel? I wouldn’t care about the act, but would there be trust issues? I think there would be, and I think I am having trust issues just thinking about it. Which brings me to the next thing:

Insecurity: I'm starting to realize that my comfort zone is stability, I can trust someone no matter who they are, but I need to feel confident that I know what to expect from them. And if Abby “cheated” I feel like it would undermine what we have built together. But then I think, how dare I feel that way when I'm sleeping with two people regularly? See how my head is spinning yet? I feel like I have been trying to be an emotional pillar for these two women, and in the process neglecting myself. For example, I'm starting to get irrational insecurities about Abby. I'm afraid she is going to wake up one day and decide all this effort isn't worth it, I'm afraid a monogamous man is going to come along and sweep her off her feet. It's branching into other topics too, what if Abby’s ex BF moves back to town and she leaves me for him? What if Abby realizes she doesn’t like Jasmine, or my kid... Once this thought train starts I can keep going forever, it’s like I can pick any topic and feel insecure about it. I am particularly disturbed by this because I don’t ever feel this way, I’m usually very good about letting things roll off; but they aren’t, I feel vulnerable, like I am going to get seriously hurt here. I know these are my problems, and I don’t want to bring Abby and Jasmine into them, but at this point I don’t know what is needed for me not to feel this way. I don’t understand where this is coming from.

When I talk myself down from the insecurity nonsense I take a deep breath and think about how lucky I am, and how much I want this all to work. But then I freak out about what it “working” means. Abby wants to have children, should that even be an option? I like kids, but then would we all live together? I would never be ok living away from my children, no matter who I have them with. Do we all buy a house together; would Abby take my last name? Would children she birthed take my last name? Would we all lose our jobs and be homeless if society found out we were poly? How would my family feel? How would Jasmine’s family feel, and Abby’s family? Oh, and what the fuck would we do about holidays!?

I know that all sounds crazy. But if we aren’t taking this somewhere meaningful, why form a Poly V at all? My daughter is already talking about Abby like she is part of the family. Which by the way is also stressful; what if she says something around my family, or around a coworker? Oh yea, I forgot to mention, Abby and I work together and no one at work knows about any of this. And if anyone found out, I suspect it would NOT be a fantastic outcome… I don’t even want to go there right now… (Not putting my family at financial risk, just fyi)

We all went out to eat one night, and Jasmine felt left out. We all went camping the next weekend, and Abby felt left out. Jasmine felt weird about giving Abby the front seat of the car one night. And Abby got upset about us not setting her up a camp-chair next to the fire. How the HELL am I supposed to anticipate these random hang-ups!? I feel like I can’t win! Jasmine is weirdly paranoid about seeing Abby and I be intimate, like to the point of irrationality; she didn’t want us all to share a tent while camping because she was afraid Abby and I would have sex in front of her, or while she slept. Which is absurd by the way, and I have done nothing to make her suspect I would ever do anything to make her uncomfortable; poor Abby had to set up her tent in the rain. Abby does things that I think are inconsiderate too, she wants to be overtly affectionate to me in front of Jasmine and gets upset that I don’t give her as much affection when we are in Jasmine’s presence. I think that’s inconsiderate because we have only just begun to hang out, I want to give Jasmine a chance to find her comfort zone. I could go on and on, but the point is I can’t seem to make everyone happy and it’s starting to drive me crazy! I am out of town and neither one of them have called me tonight by the way; see now im getting sensitive, I guess it's my turn :rolleyes:.

I feel like we need help, we need tools. I proposed that we all take a moment after we get together to write down three things that each of us would have liked to have been different about the experience. And we talk about those things before we hang out again. I’m shooting from the hip here. I feel like I haven’t even asked any questions, but right now I’m staring at an empty glass of wine and my fingers are growing tired.

I didn’t know this love would be so hard…
 
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Hey Inaniel,

Welcome to the forums. I'm relatively new myself and don't have any specific advice for you.

It's been mentioned before that FMF V-shaped polyamory can be difficult. To be honest, everything you're describing sounds like a less disastrous version of things that people have been describing on this thread that tries to explore FMF vs MFM polyamory. I don't mean to belittle you by saying "less disastrous" but rather to say I feel you're doing fairly well. I think a lot of people who come to this forum for advice could learn a lot just from reading your opening post. Having said that, I realise your situation is far from perfect and you're still looking for help.

The more senior members on the forum may be able to help you with specifics, but for now, I thought you might feel better if you realise that I think that you're actually doing better than most.

Hope things pick up for you soon,
Shaya
 
Brought over here by a post by Shaya. Am a F arm of a FMF hinge. You mention tools, sometimes I feel like the best tool that would help is if everyone was able to talk openly instead of suffering alone or with a partner involving the insecurities.

One of the things I have been frustrated with in the poly community is how much the thought process is "you have a partner problem" while trying to wrangle metamour relationships. The thing is, for those of us who are trying to build shared space, the compartmentalization is not as useful as it is for solo dating poly logistics.

The metamours can take some of the pressure off the hinge if they would talk openly, honestly and with each other and hash out some of the concerns and agreements. My biggest frustration with my FMF relationship is that I cannot get the metamour to talk with me, she is not open at all, does not talk to any of her partners until she's ready to blow up, and the poly community will consistently indicate it's not a problem for me, it's the metamour and shared partner/hinge.

And to some extent it is, and it isn't. I feel when attempting to blend multiple lives, logistically speaking, everyone needs to be in on the discussion. Everyone needs to agree on operational definitions, so everyone shares the same understanding.

When I became a foster mom, before I took the child in, CPS sat me down around a huge table with all the different entitites involved, had me lay out my rules, discuss them with the child and them, and then when the child moved in, because we had a shared understanding, we had a very smooth transition.

I feel strongly communication is the key and that Jasmine and Abby could take some pressure off you if they would talk directly with each other instead of through you. And it is my personal opinion that because of a monogamous leaning culture, that we are not accustomed to sharing our loved ones very easily. Our culture prizes possessiveness along with traits of loving relationships and we have a notion that if one person is not the true love soulmate they cannot meet all the needs but that's not true. We each bring something different to the mix.

You have not many tools to manage your situation because our culture doesn't value fluid, flexible relationships between many people of a loving nature outside of family definitions of blood and direct lineage or monogamous loving relationships.

I take some of my inspiration from business settings. How do entities larger than one/two people survive and become successful? Direct, clear communication and standardized operational definitions. Even the word poly itself and the different relationships mean different things to different people.

Just look at the below chart for definitions of non monagmous relationships and it missed a few! Maybe it would help if you shared the pressure you are feeling and why you feel it with your partners, let them get the opportunity to support you as much as you are supporting them emotionally and intimately. Give them a reason to be a team instead of competing. They could focus on their common objective of making sure your home life/shared life is not a source of unhappiness or stress for you. It would work for me, but they maybe need a different objective, who knows? They do. Through talking. Seems like less compartmentalization and more round table might work for you guys if you are going to live together and share your lives together as a communal living situation.

Example:http://shanegreenup.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/nonmonogamy2.5.gif
 
Play V

Thank you Shaya, and Sageflutterby for your replies.

I read both of your posts as well as the thread that Shaya linked..

It is discouraging and surprising that my situation is so rare and statistically destined to failure. I suppose, statistically the majority of sexual relationships fail eventually so I shouldn't feel bad.

I am clearly new to the language; Jasmine and Abby are metamours? I find lables exhausting but I can see the utility with relationships of such complexity. If Jasmine and Abby both had secondary relationships would they still be metmours? Would I still be a male hinge?

I had a previous secondary sexual partner who had virtually no communication with Jasmine. And that relationship lasted years. There is a district difference in having a casual fwb on the side and trying to integrate another lover into your shared life; though both scinarios appear to share the same lable, Poly-V with a male hinge. I must be wrong about this...

I'm not closed-off to either of my partners exploring additional partners. I am NOT trying to make an exclusive FMF-V work forever, this is the situation I have found myself in. If at any point that format changes, It won't be a failure in my eyes. Admittedly​, I'm content with it for now.

I enjoyed your post Sageflutterby, I like the business model idea, it's relatable. I'm surprised there aren't more recourses available to help poly groups get along. Maybe a book about being a manager would be a good start. What a funny place to draw inspiration, but it totally makes sense! In fact, I already feel like I'm managing a small group of people; do you think this experience would play well on a resume? j/k ;)

They are going to go out for drinks tonight, and I'm not going to meddle, I hope it goes well...
 
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Just wanted to offer my empathy. I am in a different situation, but there is a lot of your story that I can relate to in one way or another.

In particular, I understand what you mean about wanting all the people you love to be in the same place -- especially when you have kids. Have you thought about Abby getting an apartment or house that is closer to where you live? I don't know how far away she is now, but I often think how much better it would be if my boyfriend even lived a couple blocks away, rather than a 15 min drive. It's not a LONG drive, but wouldn't it be so nice to just walk across the street and see your loved one? That way, you can see them frequently, but you don't have to worry as much about the dynamics of shared space between your metamors.

You could still consider living together at some point, but it would be a temporary solution that would perhaps give Jasmine and Abby more opportunities to get to know each other.
 
You have a lot to address in your post and I don't have time right now. I will write more tomorrow. I am the hinge in a MFM V polycule. My husbands are both primary, we do cohabitate. They are both monogamous.

I have a blog which would take you forever to read, but you might find it somewhat helpful. I struggled with setting up our life, and at point She a I go over some state laws, life insurance, medical power of attorney, crap like that. I am just muddling through but maybe you will find some info that helps.

I have dated others while being married to two, and yes, love may not be limited but time sure can be! Right now I am setting off on a new adventure of trying to find a FWB and a kink play partner.

Might I suggest a shared Google calendar if you don't have one already?

Language is the easiest to address here - Jasmine and Abby are metamours, you are a hinge. If either of your ladies were dating someone else, their new boyfriend would be YOUR metamour. Your lover's other. You would still be a hinge, but then they would also take on a hinge role between you and their new partner. Making an N, or a Z shape. Building out an entire polycule or constellation. :)
 
It is discouraging and surprising that my situation is so rare and statistically destined to failure. I suppose, statistically the majority of sexual relationships fail eventually so I shouldn't feel bad.
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Don't be discouraged. It is neither rare nor destined for failure.
 
I'm sorry you struggle. You have a lot of things going on. I think you could take them one at a time. Or get the easier ones off your plate first, so the ones that need more time to solve don't feel as burdensome.

Abby recently said she wants to stop seeing other people. Ok, so she wants to be Closed on her side for now. That's her choice. It doesn't mean you “automatically” have to promise to be Closed on your side of it. If you prefer not to promise, just check in with her.

“It's fine that you choose that. I hope you aren't expecting me to promise anything like that. I'm not planning on seeing anyone right now because my plate is full, but I want my options Open.”​

If you prefer she keeps her options Open because you are worried if she slips up you will feel like she's cheating? Say that then.


“It's fine with me if you want to take a dating break. That's your choice. I'm leaving the option on the table for you to date again though. You can take it or not, but it's there. If you decide to take it, please give me the heads up before going there.”​

Then you don't have to feel like she's cheating if she starts seeing people. The agreement is that she will give you a heads up.

And if Abby “cheated” I feel like it would undermine what we have built together. But then I think, how dare I feel that way when I'm sleeping with two people regularly?*
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Because there can be agreements in poly. Poly is not automatically “cheat proof.” If we are dating and we agree to use condoms with all sex partners? We've made an agreement. If I break that agreement and just go bare back with people? I've cheated on the agreements. The number of people you sleep with doesn't matter.

Maybe we have an agreement that I only borrow your lawn mower whenever I want so long as I put it back. I take it and I leave it out in the rain. I broke the agreement. Does who you sleep with matter there? Nope. I still broke the lawn mower agreement.

I'm afraid she is going to wake up one day and decide all this effort isn't worth it, I'm afraid a monogamous man is going to come along and sweep her off her feet. It's branching into other topics too, what if Abby’s ex BF moves back to town and she leaves me for him? What if Abby realizes she doesn’t like Jasmine, or my kid...Once this thought train starts I can keep going forever, it’s like I can pick any topic and feel insecure about it.
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All this sounds like you cranking up “What if this? What if that?” anxiety hamster wheel. If any of that actually happens? You will handle it at THAT future point in time. It doesn't have to be handled right NOW. It's a non-issue right now.

In the meanwhile, you may want to see a doctor about anxiety if it's causing you this much stress/strain and you have "runaway thoughts" like that a lot. That is a problem right NOW.

We all went out to eat one night, and Jasmine felt left out. We all went camping the next weekend, and Abby felt left out. Jasmine felt weird about giving Abby the front seat of the car one night. And Abby got upset about us not setting her up a camp-chair next to the fire. How the HELL am I supposed to anticipate these random hang-ups!?
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You don't. You let each one of them feel left out and learn how to share, and learn to speak up for themselves and what they need if they need something. You are not a mind reader just because you are the hinge. Sounds like your lesson right now is learning to let people carry their own baggage instead of you carrying everything for them just because you are the hinge.

But really it's all the same lesson -- each one learning to carry their OWN baggage.

Just that they might have to step it up more. And you dial it down.

FWIW, your situation doesn't sound horrible or anything. Just everyone is still figuring it out. The "old normal" is gone, and the "new normal" is not here yet. You are all still in "transitional space" figuring it out. Be ok with being in transition. You do not have to have everything solved right NOW. That's the anxiety talking -- because you like stability and everything settled so you don't have to feel anxious. But you cannot rush this process along. It takes the time it takes.

I feel like we need help, we need tools. I proposed that we all take a moment after we get together to write down three things that each of us would have liked to have been different about the experience. And we talk about those things before we hang out again.
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Sounds like a good enough plan for now. Go with it. Stop stressing out trying to make everything "equal." It might not even be wanted or needed. Talk things out, and figure out what people actually want/need.

Maybe this visual aid helps.

http://www.businessdisabilityinternational.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/equality-vs-equity.jpg

And these worksheets:

http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

I am extremely protective of the people I love, and I find myself playing monkey in the middle, trying to defend everyone.
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Defend them from what? Having to speak up about what they need because other people cannot mind reader them?

They are adults who choose to be here. Let them do their fair share.

For this to work everyone must expect to carry their own fair share. Not expect the hinge doing 300% carrying all 3 people's baggage.

I've grown quiet around friends and family because I can't talk about my relationships, the thing I spend most of my time thinking about. I feel like it’s taking a toll on my social life, and my health.
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I feel like I have been trying to be an emotional pillar for these two women, and in the process neglecting myself.
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Stop neglecting you. In an airplane crash you put on your own oxygen mask on first before trying to help other people. Right now you are trying to attend to both Abby and Jasmine first rather than you. It is not selfish to put your own mask on first. It is NECESSARY. If each one put theirs on first before helping others? Dealt with their own mask first? Everyone would get air faster.

Please consider a doctor's check up to look in on the anxiety thing. And a poly counselor to support you through transition time since you are not out to friends and family and have no local support. Maybe start looking at a poly support group in your area. Internet forums can help some, but they cannot come bring you soup if you get sick from burn out or come watch your kid while to take a nap. If you need a housekeeper, lawn service, whatever other support help? Get it.

You are SO busy attending to other people you are not attending to yourself. Stop doing that. It's ok to say "No. I cannot go out tonight. I need to do my self care. I'm burning out and not feeling well. Let's schedule that later on."

If Abby and Jasmine love you, they will understand you need to take care of YOU too. You cannot be Superman.

Start using Google Calendar, Cozi or whatever app you like best. Manage your time better, and be sure to include the time you need for your own health and self care. It is not optional. It is NECESSARY.

Galagirl
 
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Like Bluebird, I don't have the time to compose a lengthy reply right now, Inaniel, as I am in the midst of some real life interpersonal turmoil (my lovers are on holiday together without me, right now, and in a few hours I will be "coming out" to my grown son about my poly status.)

However I WILL get back to you about your various dilemmas, as in many ways they are reflective of my own - especially insofar as your escalating anxiety and cognitive dissonance/hypocrisy is concerned.

For the record, I am the female "hinge" in a closed V triad that also includes my male partner/fiancé, J, and my female partner, B. J and B used to be intimately involved both before I met them and during the very beginning stages of my relationship with J.

None of us are truly what you would call polyamorous, although all of us have engaged in SOME degree of UN-intentional non-monogamy in the past. At the moment, they are mono and no longer have a sexual relationship with each other... however, they ARE "best friends" and what could be called non-sexual committed life partners.

My backstory can be found in the Introduction thread (titled "The Accidental Polyamorist"). The rest of my story and on-going issues can be found in Relationship Corner under various titles, though I am about to collate all these threads into a continuing blog post in the appropriate section.

Like Arnie... I'll be back!
 
Hi Inaniel,

Galagirl brings up some great points, including check-in and communicate, don't worry about the "what if?" etc.

You can't control everything (unfortunately). You are responsible for working on yourself and getting past your insecurities. Looks like both your partners are into you, congrats! They are responsible for communicating their needs and ask to for help, if they want it, in working out their negative feelings (what you call "hang ups"). It is not your responsibility to read their minds, anticipate all possible negative feelings and do exactly the right thing to avoid the negative feelings from happening.

You are in a bit of a privileged position in that neither of your partners are looking to date others, so you are not yourself being challenged to work out your jealousies, etc. I think part of what makes cheating in a monogamous relationship cheating is that you rely on the other person's promise of exclusivity in deciding to be exclusive yourself. When you find out they have been cheating, you are hurt by the broken promise, but also that you stayed "faithful" to them during this time. In poly, it is a bit different, because it is just about the promise or expectation. You aren't relying on their promise in deciding to change your own behaviour in any way. So on your end, you have the power to not accept anyone's promise of exclusivity, realizing they may not be dating right now (and that's fine too).

Practically, one of your partners is likely to find another partner and start dating them too. This will likely happen at some point. You are in a great position to understand this does not take away from your relationship, but will more likely add to it (everyone feeling happy and giddy around each other, even when the new partner is not around....)

It's normal to feel insecure to some extent when you start dating. There is a bit of a threshold when you start getting close where you feel vulnerable and exposed, then later another threshold where you start to realize it is a stable relationship, and feel more secure.

As for what you should do in any given situation, that's really just something you guys have to discuss on a case by case basis. Hear each of your partner's out. Consider your own needs. Abby wants her own babies, Jasmine thinks you have your hands full, and you decide you personally don't have time for more babies. You set your boundaries (no more babies right now), and Abby finds another co-parenting partner while continuing to have a relationship with you. This is just a hypothetical, but gives a sense of how these things play out when they come up.

Anyway, good luck!
 
Thank you all for contributing. GalaGirl, thank you for the thoughtful response.

I feel like I am in the right place, I can feel the wisdom pouring out of this community.

While reading GalaGirl's post I was jogging my memory for the last time I had alone time. It has been almost two months. At least prior to this business trip I'm on right now, which isn't my preferred type of alone time...

Abby and Jasmine met for drinks last night and I was told it went well. I didn't pry but talked to both of them on Skype afterwords, from what I can glean it was positive and productive.

Abby stayed out drinking and by the time we Skyped it was late. It's like she just turns off on me sometimes.. She was all smiles as we talked about how silly and in love we are, and then BAM, insecure and scared...

I tried to be sympathetic to her fears and I ended up getting lectured about how I'll never understand where she's coming from. She feels like if all of this dissolve​s I still have Jasmine, and Abby has no support to fall back on. She basically feels like she is putting herself in a more vulnerable place than Jasmine and I.

I got defensive about that, I think we all have different vulnerabilities at stake, but I don't know how to compare them, or why she would insist on comparing them, it only serves to create distance in my opinion.

But that's not what she wanted to hear, I think she just wanted me to listen... I asked if this was her way of expressing the desire to have her own Jasmine in her life. And I missed the mark again... She expressed that she wants to feel like we are all in this together, and that right now she feels like it's her and "us" us being Jasmine and I, Abby wants to feel like "us" includes all of us... Her words, she was drunk btw....

Anyway, we ended the conversation on good terms but I woke up frustrated and angry with Abby this morning. Partly because Abby knew I had to get up early and that I am traveling all day today, yet felt justified keeping me on Skype until 3am. Yes, I could have hung up but she's going to be at a music festival all weekend so that was literally our last opportunity to talk before Monday, and I didn't want us to be on bad terms all weekend...

I don't know how to make her feel like she has value, I don't know how I'll ever make her feel like she's part of "us"... I feel like that's what we are all trying to work towards, but Jasmine and I have been together for 10yrs and have a child. Im starting to wonder - given my situation - if I'll ever be able to satisfy Abby's desire to feel like an equal partner.

I think seeing a professional to talk to could be a good idea for me. Abby already talks to a therapist whom wasn't very accepting of this romantic situation, which is not something I would be interested in for myself. Are there professionals that specialize in these issues? We are located in Colorado, if anyone is aware of any resources I would like to look into it...

Uhg. I'm zombified today... Can't wait to cuddle up next to Jasmine tonight. It's been a long 8 days...
 
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You might want to start a journal in that section of the boards - it's a good way to keep track and see how your relationship evolves.

It sounds like your main concern here is how to allay Abby's fears about being secondary to Jasmine. That's something a good hinge should be able to work out eventually. For me, really, time is the thing that makes a difference here. Of course a 10 week relationship can't compare to a 10 year relationship. You know someone sooo much better, and at that point you've built up some interconnectivity. However, I think you said you've been with abby for 5 years? If that is the case, it sounds like you are in the midst of making a shift.

If Abby has always been secondary, and living under the ability to be vetoed by Jasmine, perhaps you should make it clear, straight up, to both of your partners that you want this to change. That would probably help Abby feel more secure, and allow Jasmine to think about what that may mean for her. It's a fundamental change in your current structure, and she may not want that.

So you need to decide what you want. If you do want two primaries, then yes, you need to treat them both as such. No one gets a veto, and you need to start long term planning with both both women. Does Abby want you as a nesting partner? Does she want children with you? How will you spend your retirement? Living arrangements need to be discussed. Many people are successful with juggling two primary relationships, and I would say those people are successful because they do so with PURPOSE. Don't just hope things work out - put a plan in place so it does.

If Abby doesn't want kids or a nesting partner, then you don't need to worry about that. But you won't know unless you discuss it with her - when she's not drunk. You can't make agreements without knowing what the other wants first. :) Your discussion with Jasmine needs to be purposeful too - what does she want? How does she feel about you possibly having a second primary, other children? Her child will be affected, her LIFE will be affected. These are major points.

Cohabitation - if Jasmine doesn't want to live with someone else, then that won't happen, no matter how much you want it. Maybe you don't want it. :) Maybe Abby has never even thought about it. There are too many variables to get anxious over - clarify things and then you can have some concrete information. Figure out what you would like ideally, what you would be able to handle, and ask the women the same. Maybe buying a duplex would work - at one point I know my polycule was considering having each man have his own half a house and I would just float between them. We do okay sharing one home though, so that has been us for the last 3 years.

Anyway, I think you are ramping up anxiety and trying to solve problems that might not yet exist. Plan and schedule some time for serious talks with both your partners individually, so you can find out what everyone really wants.
 
I tried to be sympathetic to her fears and I ended up getting lectured about how I'll never understand where she's coming from. She feels like if all of this dissolve​s I still have Jasmine, and Abby has no support to fall back on. She basically feels like she is putting herself in a more vulnerable place than Jasmine and I.
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It could also end up with everyone single. Not all marriages survive poly. Not trying to be a wet blanket. Just pointing out Abby's thinking only one possibility. If she's worried about having no support to fall back on? She could get on with creating it for herself so she can feel better rather than complaining about what you do/do not have for your support systems. Each of you is responsible for making your own support system. Like instead of focussing on what can go wrong, could focus on what she could do to help it go WELL.

What is the purpose of this conversation? :confused:

  • She need some "there,there poor baby?"
  • She needs advice about something? Help solving a problem?

She doesn't seem to say. Perhaps stating it up front could help her get it sooner.

Feeling vulnerable during the transition time while building "the new normal" together is the price of admission here. It just plain feels weird for a while. Old normal is gone, and new normal is not here yet.

  • If she doesn't want to pay the price of admission or clock the time? She could stop choosing to be here.
  • It's her job to create her support systems. Doesn't want to make them? Then do not do stuff that requires them so she doesn't have to feel like she's out on a limb.

  • If her goal is to be clearly understood? Why's she drunk dialing people in the night? How does that behavior help bring clarity and understanding?

  • If she thinks you will never understand her? Why's she picking you out to date? :confused:

If she's putting her jobs on your plate? You could say "This is not my stuff to do. You have to sort that out."

I got defensive about that, I think we all have different vulnerabilities at stake, but I don't know how to compare them, or why she would insist on comparing them, it only serves to create distance in my opinion.
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If she insists on comparing them? She could tell all those concerns to a friend, a relative, a therapist. She doesn't have to compare them with you.

You don't want to be comparing. So don't compare. Say "No, thank you. I do not want to compare."

She expressed that she wants to feel like we are all in this together, and that right now she feels like it's her and "us" us being Jasmine and I, Abby wants to feel like "us" includes all of us... Her words, she was drunk btw....
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I suggest you not have serious conversations with drunk people.

I suggest you practice HAALT -- do not have serious conversations when hungry, angry, anxious, lonely, tired. And add drunk to the list.

Anyway, we ended the conversation on good terms but I woke up frustrated and angry with Abby this morning. Partly because Abby knew I had to get up early and that I am traveling all day today, yet felt justified keeping me on Skype until 3am.
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Please take ownership of your own behavior. YOU knew you have to get up early. You are the one answering late night Skype calls when you know you need to be sleeping. If you are angry and frustrated with yourself for that behavior the next morning? Don't do that behavior any more.

Could have skipped answering it. Let her leave a message.

Could have said "I see you want to talk about this. I want to give you my best attention, not sleepy/poor attention. This doesn't sound like a 5 min call. This sounds like it needs more time. So how about we talk about this more fully on _____ instead? We can both get some sleep and be at our best listening then."

You can offer something that works better for you than losing sleep. She can accept your offer or not. Keep it way simpler on yourself.

This is what I am talking about when I say to put YOUR OWN oxygen mask on first. You cannot be any good at work all tired. And you won't be any good at serious relationship talks all tired either.

Yes, I could have hung up but she's going to be at a music festival all weekend so that was literally our last opportunity to talk before Monday, and I didn't want us to be on bad terms all weekend...
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So talk Monday.

If my GF were drunk dialing me in the middle of the night when she knows I have to sleep for work the next day? Yeah, I'd be miffed. And I would expect her to apologize to me later for behaving like that. I would also not HELP her keep me on the line forever. I would offer ot reschedule and hang up and go back to sleep.

Why are you afraid of being on "bad terms" when you didn't do anything bad or rude? :confused:

  • You answered the call rather than let her leave a message

  • You kept on talking. Rather than reschedule it as soon as you realized a) she's drunk and b) this is not a 5-10 min kind of conversation.

I think in those areas you could improve. Manage your time better. But it isn't "bad." Could call it part of the "learning in transition." But learn it, and move on.

Next time turn the phone/laptop off and let it go to messages if you need to sleep.

You are not being disloyal if you do not answer when it is your sleeping time. Be sleeping.

Your partners are adults. They can call 911 if it is an emergency. Otherwise... leave a message.

I don't know how to make her feel like she has value, I don't know how I'll ever make her feel like she's part of "us"... I feel like that's what we are all trying to work towards, but Jasmine and I have been together for 10yrs and have a child. Im starting to wonder - given my situation - if I'll ever be able to satisfy Abby's desire to feel like an equal partner.
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If she cannot see her own value? She has some big empty hole inside her? She needs to work with a counselor. You are not it.

And you cannot fill the big empty hole for her. It is not your job to prop her up. She needs to be able to stand on her own two feet.

If she is not a healthy person at this time, I'm not sure why she's dating. It's not offering herself as a healthy dating partner to anyone.

I think seeing a professional to talk to could be a good idea for me. Abby already talks to a therapist whom wasn't very accepting of this romantic situation, which is not something I would be interested in for myself. Are there professionals that specialize in these issues?
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Google "polyamory counseling" and your area.

Could also check http://polyfriendly.org/index.php

Could also print and take this to any counselor -- even if not a poly specialist.

https://ncsfreedom.org/images/stories/PolyPaper/72548_NCSF_2012poly7.pdf

If you are struggle with anxiety? That's not special to polyamory. That's just that kind of problem.

If you are struggling with time management, saying "No" or keeping personal boundaries? That's not special to polyamory. That's just that kind of problem.

If your GF doesn't think she has any value and feels all empty inside and wants you to prop her up all the time and you find her draining? That's not special to polyamory. That's just that kind of problem. If it was just you and Abby? It would still be happening. You would still feel tired/drained by it.

I encourage you to set up your counseling for yourself. I also encourage you to turn all devices OFF when you need to be sleeping. Learn to put your own oxygen mask on first.

Hang in there.

Galagirl
 
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Hi Inaniel,

Your description of your situation was thorough and engaging, and the others here have gave you some excellent advice. I would just add that it is my impression that you do want to keep both Abby and Jasmine in your life, in spite of the risks and difficulties. It's obvious that you care very much for both of them (as well as for your daughter). Abby has expressed a desire to have children; you should think about whether you want to have children with her and if you do, you should find out how Jasmine feels about that. If you do have at least one child with Abby, you'll want to either all live in the same domicile, or perhaps in two domiciles within short walking distance of each other. And maybe you'd want to do that even if you don't have any kids with Abby.

Continue posting as your situation evolves, and we'll try to give more advice.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I forgot to add, I have a few more resources for finding poly-friendly therapists:

If you can't find a poly-familiar therapist, but can find an open-minded therapist, ask them to read, "What Psychology Professionals Should Know about Polyamory," a book by Geri Weitzman, Ph.D., Joy Davidson, Ph.D., and Robert A. Phillips, Jr., Ph.D.
 
A good therapist is a good therapist -- period. A smart one who finds her-/himself overwhelmed will (theoretically) refer out rather than dive in half-arsed.

The potential downside of "poly-friendly" is that the shrink won't be inclined to say, "dude, this is really NOT what you need."
kdt26417 said:
"What Psychology Professionals Should Know about Polyamory," a book by Geri Weitzman, Ph.D., Joy Davidson, Ph.D., and Robert A. Phillips, Jr., Ph.D.
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Well... not really a book.
https://ncsfreedom.org/images/stories/PolyPaper/72548_NCSF_2012poly7.pdf
All of 36 pages... minus of course four cover sheets, a TOC, three Foreword pages, an Introduction, five pages of bibliography, About The Authors & Appendix (a page apiece), & two endpapers. At 18 pages, a reasonable pamphlet.

It's also rather glib in equating various forms of intentional nonmonogamy & intimate networks with polyamory. :rolleyes:
 
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I'm the unmarried leg in a FMF v. We are open rather than closed, but much of your situation is similar.
I can relate to your description of Abby's feelings. Dating and spending lots of time with an established couple can be difficult. There are lots of times the simple affections and routines of married life make the new person feel on the outside. It's much like introducing you new golfing buddy to your old college roommate and then adding in sexual tension. Closeted relationships can add more tension.

At the beginning of our relationship, we were closeted to Real and Lady's kids. Family time was difficult for me then. Every easy touch or kiss cut at me because it was off limits. Same thing for lots of events where work was involved. At one point, I just stopped attending those things and limited family time.

I was also insecure, felt like an outsider and/or worried about being disposable. I remember having a nightmare that I went over to their house to find changed locks. I worried that I would be tossed aside if I got too difficult so I often minimized my feelings or didn't share them.

Lady also had struggles. Real had a new shiny person, and she sometimes felt replaced. Sometime just felt left out because he and I communicate very differently than he and she do. It took a lot of time to settle into a shape that worked for all of us.

During the 1st year, lady and I tried to have coffee, or lunch, or nails don e etc about once a month to bond. Now we are both too busy, but that initial foundation of getting to know each other and trust each other has held line of communication open as needed. Of note though, our getting to know you stuff only worked when we decided to do it. We both reacted strongly against Real trying to push us together.

I would recommend reading up on couple privilege, so that you can be aware of common pitfalls. And let go of some of the anxiety spiral you keep twirling into. Things will happen or they won't, worrying too much just wastes time and energy better spent elsewhere.

Also,you don't have to spend all your time all 3 together, or any time together. For me, I need time with just Real before or after any V activity. Knowing I will have this couple time alleviates any issues that could arise during V time.

Playful
 
How long have you and Abby been together?

I hear you've been in an open relationship with Jasmine for 5 years. You've had several long term gfs but it's been rather casual. You also let Jasmine have veto rights.

(Ugh, I hate vetoes. It's so unfair to the OSOs, to have the threat of being tossed aside by a third party. I highly recommend you get rid of this agreement ASAP. It reeks of couple privilege.)

I hear that, for the first time, you are "in love," ie: intense NRE, with a second partner. You want to be with her all the time. That's the NRE talking... you have responsibilities to date and nurture Jasmine, to do child care, to be good at your job, not to mention nurture yourself with "me time." You could tell your NRE to shut up! It's just hormones, and it doesn't need to rule your life.

Your NRE is telling you to be with Abby as much as possible. So you're trying to "make Abby part of 'us,' " part of you and Jasmine.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way... You have 2 relationships. You have a V. If the women don't like being together, feel awkward about sharing space in the house, in a car, in a tent, so be it! Don't do it. Learn to live with seeing them separately. It will get easier as you learn to regulate your NRE, or it starts to fade naturally (this takes 12 months on average).

Otherwise, I agree with others that you're on the anxiety train, and on a rollercoaster of fun and hard emotions.

Keep reading. Seek therapy to sort things out so it doesn't feel like an overwhelming mess of "what ifs."
 
Thank you for all of the replies.

I don’t have the time to address every question that people have posed right now; in fact I take it that some of them were rhetorical…

Regardless; I am home from my business trip and feel pretty good. I went on a date with Jasmine last night and we had a really good time. I’ll be spending tomorrow with Abby, who I haven’t talked to in a few days because she has been at a festival. Thank you playfulgirl and Magdlyn for bringing up couples privilege, that is something Jasmine and I need to work on. I talked to Jasmine about having veto power over my relationship with Abby; I expressed that while it may have made sense for the types of relationships I had in the past, I think it’s detrimental moving forward. She agreed that we need to find a different way for her to feel secure and prioritized; I don’t know what that looks like yet but we are going to work on it.

I have had a sexual relationship with Abby for 6 months, we were platonic friends for a couple of years prior to that. And I agree with Magdlyn about NRE, I am definitely feeling it and everything you said was basically spot-on about my desires. I took your advice to heart and I am going to try and make sure that I am respecting everyone’s boundaries; it can be difficult in the moment..

I have actually talked to Abby and Jasmine previously about pregnancy as a few of you have brought up. It is too soon to talk seriously about planning for it, but we have touched on it from a risk-based perspective, precautions are being taken to avoid an unplanned pregnancy. Jasmine is supportive of me having a child with someone else, I probably have considerably more hang-ups than she does; Abby and I will have a lot to talk about before a planned pregnancy; although she has made it known that she wants kids eventually, (she has also told me that she would “totally have my babies”).

Thank you for your continued posts Bluebird and GalaGirl; you both seem to come from a very experienced and rational perspective, your posts cut through the BS exposing the core issues and I appreciate that. I have a lot of conversations and thoughts to organize; I started a digital journal on my phone which so far has helped with my anxiety and obsessive thinking. Having a place to quickly stash my thoughts has helped me be less distracted this weekend, and I am happier for it. I am encouraged to see where journaling can take me.

Thank you all!
 
I'm glad you're benefiting from the experienced members' advice!

If you feel at sea about many basic poly concepts, you could read at the website morethantwo.com. There is also a helpful book by the same name. Another good book is Opening Up.

To become more informed about terms and labels, check the glossary provided on our board.

So you've only been with Abby 6 months. Still in NRE. Take your time with ideas about cohabiting and having babies! Many issues to iron out before you make commitments like those.

Many women don't feel comfortable sharing their homes with a new female partner. Women (in general) are very "nesty" and like to feel independent and not share space, cooking, decorating, childcare, etc., with another woman.

That said, Bluebird cohabits with her 2 husbands, and they have made sure each partner has their own bedroom as well as their own playspace/workspace. This is very important. A former member here, Redpepper, cohabited with 2 men and they also had a separate space for both men. One of them had the basement space to himself.

Your obsessive thoughts: have you an OCD diagnosis? You sound like my nephew, who does. Thoughts spin and spin like in a hamster wheel... drawing more and more tragic conclusions unrelated to reality.
 
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