Defining moment

[ButterflyQueen]

OP and married boyfriend of 6 years posting together:
Backstory:
OP (53F) was in a loveless, vanilla and completely unsatisfying, monogamous marriage for 28 years and decided that she needed some excitement and some decent sex in her life. OP placed a "seeking" ad on Craigslist, pretty much looking for safe sex with someone she felt a connection with. 100+ responses later, she narrowed the suitors to OPs now boyfriend (55M) and they met for regular, insanely fun, NSA sex where things unintentionally progressed to become the most satisfying, incredible relationship either could ever imagine. Neither of them had any intention of falling in love. But they did. Hard. They developed a deep and intense connection and enjoyed every minute of their time together, which grew as their love grew. And against all odds, their sex life got better every week, month and year because of their connection and similarly matched intensity and desire. But one thing kept them from being happily ever after. OPs now boyfriend was/is married (F54) . He needed what OP was seeking as much or more than OP herself. He was/is married to someone who he loves but the years had taken a toll on their 13+ year marriage and their shared life was as lacking and monotonous as their anemic and unsatisfying sex life, to the point where their bedroom routine became no more than one mans fantasies and his wife's faked interest and ultimate rejection. There was little shared intimacy or deep connection inside or outside of the bedroom. TV was about as exciting as things got and their marriage settled in to comfortable but uninspiring. OPS now boyfriend would have done anything to spice up or bring some excitement to their marriage and tried on many occasions but OPS now boyfriends wife wasn't interested in discussing or working on it and it became clear that she wanted nothing more than the dismal repetition they had settled in to. And the love of two people who stay together just because that's what married people do, left him seeking more in the shadows of the sobering truth of their unsatisfying union. It was under the influence of that reality that OPs now boyfriend, answered OPs ad and over time, fell madly in love .
At about the 4 year mark of mutual infidelity, OP and her husband divorced. It was the natural and merciful progression of marriage that had long since been dead. It was not unexpected and had little impact on OP and OPs now boyfriend except that OP was free to live and love and be. It was her renaissance and she was enjoying every minute of it. OP had no expectation for OPs now boyfriend to do the same, as he was honest about loving his wife and hung up on their married life being too hard to untangle.
Five years in to OPs and OPs now boyfriends relationship, they mutually decided that what they had was more permanent than either ever saw coming. Neither could or wanted to imagine a life without each other. What began as meeting mutual unmet needs had become something that neither could or wanted to deny that just got better and better. After almost a year of trying to figure out how to tell OPs now boyfriends wife about his almost 6 year girlfriend, he finally did and it didn't go well. She was less supportive of his happiness than either imagined.
OPs now boyfriend poured a tremendous amount of energy and effort in to helping his wife understand that just because he loves OP, doesn't mean he couldn't love her, too. He was hoping that through his honesty and transparency, she would be open to a Poly relationship of some sort, creating a harmonious larger, more loving family and OP fully supported that vision.
However, almost immediately, OP didn't appreciate the unbalanced attention and effort his wife required from him once she found out about their relationship. OPs now boyfriend had misjudged how forgiving and open she would be and that caused a lot of surprise resentment from OP when she saw how much he tried to make her happy vs protecting he and OPs relationship, which was finally public. OP and her now boyfriend had talked about how to avoid the pitfalls that could ruin what they were trying to grow, but OPs now boyfriend fell in to each one trying to make his marriage something it wasn't.
Fast forward 5 months after OPs now boyfriend shared that he had an almost 6 year girlfriend and the 2 women have met once for a meet and greet that didn't go well. OP and OPs now almost 6 year boyfriend are figuring out how to spend more time together and have worked up to celebrating a few special occasions as openly coupled, gone on one short vacation, he's met her family and spent time with them, they have carved out one dinner/sleepover during the week at her place and spend some time together during the week (all with his wife's knowledge and reluctant/begrudging acceptance). OPs now boyfriends wife talks about him wanting a Poly relationship for the 3 of them but is mostly against it. Both OP and OPs now boyfriend know that if she "allows" what he is wanting, it will be like everything else in their lives and she will secretly resent it and never embrace the lifestyle.
OP, as is probably abundantly clear by this point, loves her boyfriend of almost 6 years immensely and saw a Poly relationship as a way that the two women could both freely love and be loved by the same man and he not have to choose one or the other. In light of OPs now boyfriends wife's continued lack of enthusiasm in a Poly relationship, OP wishes that instead of being Wife #2, that Wife #1 didn't exist.
The questions for Polyland are:
1) How to proceed if 1 1/2 lovers want something that a 3rd doesn't want?
2) What construct would that be?
3) How can OPs now boyfriend make both or either woman happy?
4) Is a non-hierarchal dynamic possible when 2 of 3 are married, regardless of the health of the marriage?
5) Is it possible to orchestrate 2 independent, healthy relationships that feel equal to both?

Clearly hoping that the openminded Poly community can offer some supportive advice without too much criticism. Love is love, every relationship differs from the next and OPs now boyfriend is committed to being open and honest with both (an obvious issue with Wife #1, given his 6 year infidelity).
OP supports him completely as long as the construct allows them an opportunity to go and do and be a couple of 2 who plan on growing old together.
OPs hang ups are that while he has shared their relationship with his wife and seems to be commited to a forever future together, he/they have yet to share that OP exists with anyone else and OP wants to step out of the shadows and in to the light.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Okay, you guys need to step out of romanticizing your affair and acknowledge it for what it was.

There's several reasons a marriage develops a discord in sexual willingness and appetite. Sometimes it's just a natural evolution as two people grow apart. Other times it's more to do with the fact there is grossly unequal labor in heterosexual relationships, and the woman is exhausted by carrying a load she cannot bear.

I ask OP if she has ever had a frank talk with wife about her side of their marriage issues? It's very easy (and we've ALL done it) to forget there are two sides to every story when you are close to someone. I'm not suggesting you should have spoken to her, or that she is is obliged to have that conversation with you. But if you had spoken to her, you might recognise some familiar woes that puts their marriage issues into a different light.

Either way, you are dismissing the significance that you guys started as an affair. I'm not saying things can't be rectified from that point (at least one long term member here started out that way, I forget who). But when you start out as an affair, and trust has been broken, the things I apply to my relationships don't really apply to yours.

Married Boyfriend should have got divorced like OP did. Yes it's hard, but that is the reality. Now, it seems like he is playing a proactive part in trying to heal his marriage as well as legitimize the relationship he had with his mistress. I mean, I'm poly as they come but I am really not sure how to do that, or even if it should be done.

I can't think of one reason his wife should trust anyone in this situation.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello ButterflyQueen,

It sounds like you and your boyfriend were both married in completely unsatisfying marriages, hence your relationship with each other is much more fulfilling. It's clear you both tried to spice up your marriages, but your spouses were having none of it, they preferred the dull, lifeless marriages they already had. Really they should expect that you and your boyfriend would seek each other out. And I see that your boyfriend tried his best to help his wife to understand, alas she was unwilling to try. She did not treat you fairly, you (understandably) wish she wasn't in the picture.

You need to have parallel poly, where you and boyfriend's wife seldom or (even better) never meet up with each other. It's too bad you couldn't have kitchen table poly, but your boyfriend is the one who wants to stay married, and hence he will have to be the one who does the juggling act. It is doubtful he can make both women happy, neither woman wants the other woman to be in the picture. Everyone will have to settle for a mixture of happy/unhappy. That is the price of boyfriend staying married.

Given boyfriend's wife's view of the situation, alas you will probably always be in a configuration where the wife is the primary partner, while you are the secondary partner. This will be true unless and until your boyfriend puts his foot down, and demands a non-hierarchical setup. I am thinking he is reluctant to do that because it would probably lead to a divorce.

Boyfriend must try to create a healthy, fair balance, between his two partners, but he will have a hard time doing that as his wife will always feel that she is entitled to the lion's share of his time and attention. Meanwhile you have been his partner/girlfriend for six years, you can't just break up with him. I hope he will put his foot down and insist on a fair and equal arrangement, but he may fear that that would lead to a divorce.

It is a difficult situation.
Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

OP and married boyfriend of 6 years posting together:

I am going to use nicknames, which is recommended to make posts more understandable. Even though you said this is both of you writing together, I am going to respond as though Butterfly is the main writer, and call her bf Bob. I am going to edit out some of the language for the sake of brevity and clarity. See if I have it right.

I, Butterfly, now 53, had been in a loveless, vanilla and completely unsatisfying monogamous marriage for 28 years. I decided that I needed excitement and sex in my life. I placed an ad on Craigslist. I started meeting Bob (now 55) for sex, but things unintentionally progressed to become the most satisfying, incredible relationship we could ever imagine. Neither of us had any intention of falling in love, but we did. Hard.

It's unrealistic to expect sex to be just that. That's not how our bodies/psyches are designed to work. There are bonding hormones that appear during sex, which can make us fall in love if we are compatible.

We developed a deep and intense connection... it got better because of our similarly matched intensity and desire. One thing kept us from being happily ever after. Bob is married to Alice, whom he loves. But the years have taken a toll on their 13+ year marriage. Their shared life was as lacking and monotonous as their anemic and unsatisfying sex life, to the point where their bedroom routine became no more Bob's fantasies and Alice's faked interest and ultimate rejection. There was little shared intimacy or deep connection. TV was about as exciting as things got.

Bob would have done anything to spice up his marriage. He tried on many occasions, but Alice wasn't interested... she wanted nothing more than dismal repetition...The love of two people who stay together just because that's what married people do left Bob seeking more in the shadows.

At about the 4 year mark of mutual infidelity, my husband and I divorced. This had had little impact on me and Bob, except that I was free to live and love and be. It was my renaissance. I had no expectation for Bob to do the same. He was honest about loving Alice and hung up on their married life being too hard to untangle.

Five years into our affair, we decided that what we had was... permanent. Neither of wanted to imagine a life without the other. After a year of trying to figure out how to tell Alice about his almost 6 year affair, he finally did. It didn't go well. Bob is pouring a tremendous amount of energy and effort in to helping Alice understand that just because he loves me doesn't mean he can't love her, too. He is hoping that through his honesty and transparency, she will open up to a poly relationship, creating a larger, harmonious, loving family.

I don't appreciate the unbalanced attention and effort Alice now requires from Bob. He misjudged how forgiving and open Alice would be. That causes me to feel resentment when I see how much Bob is trying to make Alice happy, vs protecting our relationship, which is finally public. We talked about how to avoid the pitfalls that could ruin what they were trying to grow, but Bob fell into each one trying to make his marriage something it wasn't.

Fast forward 5 months. After Bob shared that he had [been cheating on Alice for 6 years], I met her once. It didn't go well.

I am not surprised. A fling for a few weeks is one thing. Living a double life for 6 years would be shocking to all but the most open-minded of spouses. Alice didn't sound particularly open-minded to me.

We are figuring out how to spend more time together. We have worked up to celebrating a few special occasions as openly coupled, gone on one short vacation. He's spent time with my family. We have one sleepover during the week at my place and spend some time together during the week (all with Alice's knowledge and reluctant/begrudging acceptance).

Alice talks about Bob wanting a poly relationship. She is mostly against it. We know that if she "allows" what Bob wants, it will be like everything else in their lives-- she will secretly resent it and never embrace the lifestyle.

It doesn't sound like she "secretly" resents it.

I love Bob immensely. I see a poly relationship as a way that both women could love and be loved by Bob, and he not have to choose one or the other...

I wish that instead of me being Wife #2, Alice didn't exist.

1) How to proceed if 1 1/2 lovers want something that a 3rd doesn't want?

Therapy, years of rebuilding trust, or divorce. You're for poly, Bob is struggling, trying to have his cake and eat it too, Alice is against it. This sounds rather hopeless at the moment.

2) What construct would that be?
3) How can Bob make both or either woman happy?

He can't make you both happy. He could only make you happy by divorcing Alice. (Would you trust Bob never to cheat on you, btw?)

4) Is a non-hierarchal dynamic possible when 2 of 3 are married?

Yes, but in your case, after a 6 year affair, probably not.

5) Is it possible to orchestrate 2 independent, healthy relationships that feel equal to both?

Sure! Lots of us here have that. But we started it ethically, based on research and mutual respect and understanding, good communication, honesty, etc.

Love is love. Every relationship differs from the next.

Ethics is ethics, though. Bob can't expect to be rewarded for cheating. And as his cheating partner, you now are also suffering from helping him to hide and lie all those years. It's consequences.

Bob is committed to being open and honest with both (an obvious issue with Alice, given his 6 year infidelity). I support him completely as long as the construct allows him and me the opportunity to be a couple who plan on growing old together. My hang ups are that while Bob has shared (the existence of) our relationship with Alice, and he seems to be committed to a forever future with me, he/they have yet to share that I exist with anyone else. I want us to step out of the shadows and into the light.

It sounds like Bob and Alice need therapy. Or he needs to make a choice, you or Alice. You both naively thought Alice would agree to being in a poly relationship after Bob dropped the bomb that he'd been unfaithful for 6 years. I am not sure of the timeline, but if they've been together 13 years, and he's been with you 6, that is half their relationship. Of course Alice is in shock.

This is not (yet) polyamory. It is an affair being practiced out in the open. You don't seem to have any empathy for Alice. You want her to just go along with this whole thing, after having been deceived for 6 years, or go away. And Bob is now being a bad "hinge." You resent Alice, she resents you, you both resent the time Bob spends with his other woman. Alice has a hold on him, for whatever it is she provides for Bob. Laundry? Meals? A cuddly TV companion? Money? Something else?

Do Bob and Alice have children? Is she ashamed to be the victim of this affair? Would her friends and family judge her and Bob? Pity her? Do you all live in a conservative area? Would she lose her family, friends? Could Bob lose his job? (Or lose his kids, if any?) It sounds very humiliating for her to restructure her whole understanding of how relationships work, and to "come out of the shadows" as the inadequate wife that Bob strayed away from. Divorce is common, but polyamory is still quite a new social phenomenon, and she doesn't sound like the groundbreaking type.

I'm sure it would be kinder for Bob to just ask her for a divorce, as you asked your ex h. Poly can come from admitted affairs, but it is a long, very complicated and difficult road. Bob would need to rebuild trust with Alice, and that would take a lot of time away from you and Bob's time spent together. You don't want that. You just want to wave a magic wand and make the wife go away. That's how affairs usually go. The husband usually does not leave the wife. It takes real courage to do that, and someone who cheated for 6 years rather than come clean is obviously lacking in courage.

 

[ButterflyQueen]

Okay, you guys need to step out of romanticizing your affair and acknowledge it for what it was.

There's several reasons a marriage develops a discord in sexual willingness and appetite. Sometimes it's just a natural evolution as two people grow apart. Other times it's more to do with the fact there is grossly unequal labor in heterosexual relationships, and the woman is exhausted by carrying a load she cannot bear.

I ask OP if she has ever had a frank talk with wife about her side of their marriage issues? It's very easy (and we've ALL done it) to forget there are two sides to every story when you are close to someone. I'm not suggesting you should have spoken to her, or that she is is obliged to have that conversation with you. But if you had spoken to her, you might recognise some familiar woes that puts their marriage issues into a different light.

Either way, you are dismissing the significance that you guys started as an affair. I'm not saying things can't be rectified from that point (at least one long term member here started out that way, I forget who). But when you start out as an affair, and trust has been broken, the things I apply to my relationships don't really apply to yours.

Married Boyfriend should have got divorced like OP did. Yes it's hard, but that is the reality. Now, it seems like he is playing a proactive part in trying to heal his marriage as well as legitimize the relationship he had with his mistress. I mean, I'm poly as they come but I am really not sure how to do that, or even if it should be done.

I can't think of one reason his wife should trust anyone in this situation.

It is interesting that I didnt use the word affair. I knew then and all along what it was. Pure selfishness I suppose, because I didn't and still don't consider him any more hers than he is mine. If my husband had been meeting my needs, I would never have sought someone who could. If she were meeting his needs (in a variety of areas), he would never have been looking and answered. As wrong as it may sound, we are much better suited to each other than we were to either spouse. That's simply the truth. And while it may be true for some, her load is nothing. She rides her horse, watches TV and gossips about her life. Doesn't cook, clean or take care of anyone but herself. Late to marry. No kids. (All for reasons that are obvious to me).
I'm sure that I am not allowing myself to be completely objective about their marriage but I guess ultimately, he and I don't have the issues that they do and I prefer to see us as a separate relationship from what they share. I'm totally fine with that. There is nothing about their marriage that appeals to me except for him. (Which I'm saying pretty lightheartedly). I really love what we share and to me, it's worth it all.
The fact that it started as an affair is more like asking how we met, more than anything. It's our history. We all have one.
Ultimately I want him to be happy. At all cost. If that means her and not me, I would step aside in a heartbeat. A bit heartbroken, of course, but totally willingly for his happiness.
One awesome thing that I really appreciated about your response was you saying that she would have no reason to trust either of us. When we met I didn't get it and I've struggled with it ever since. I'm a gregarious, outgoing, generous and whimsical person that people really gravitate to. I didn't get why she didn't. I hadn't really considered that at least for now, she can't separate me and my goodness from how she feels betrayed.

 

[GalaGirl]

That was rough to read in that writing style. Let me sum up in my own words. You correct me if I get the basics wrong, ok?

• You and your BF Bob were in dead bedroom marriages and took up together as cheating affair partners rather than ending it with the spouses in a more forthright way.
• Didn't expect to fall in love but did.
• On your end after cheating for 4 years? You eventually divorced and cleaned up your side of the mess. It came as no surprise to your spouse. It was liberating and a time of joy for you. At that time you did not expect Bob to clean up his side.
• Time goes on. At 5 years in, you want to stop lurking in the shadows and step into the light. End all this hinky. So does Bob. Spend a year struggling how to tell his wife.
• After cheating for 6 years he finally came clean to his wife Alice. It is now mess.
  • Both underestimated her reaction.
  • You suggested polyamory as the bandaid so nobody has to break up.
  • Alice does not want poly. Very few people are going to jump for joy at hearing their spouse say "Guess what? I've been cheating for 6 years. Now I want to come clean and practice poly. Since I've become so transparent and honest about it in the last 2 minutes? You are up for doing polyamory now, right? With me as the hinge and you and my secret GF as my poly partners. Because me loving my GF doesn't mean I don't love you."
  • When none of this experience is kind or loving behavior from Bob to Alice.
  • And none of this experience is kind or loving behavior from you to Alice. Or gregarious, outgoing, generous or whimsical. Alice's experience of you is a stranger who helped her cheating spouse keep secrets that hurt Alice.
  • Alice has no reason to be thrilled with either of you right now. Or trust either of you.
• 5 mos or so after coming clean? You and Alice met. It was not great.
• In the end you value Bob's happiness and would step aside.
• At this time nobody is really happy here.

So....

If your highest value right now is to "step out of the shadows and into the light" and live more authentic and honest? You could align your behaviors to that goal.

Even if some of the process is going to be uncomfortable.

Ultimately I want him to be happy. At all cost. If that means her and not me, I would step aside in a heartbeat. A bit heartbroken, of course, but totally willingly for his happiness.

So take the risk, step aside, and plump for happy. YOUR happy.

Tell him you are going to do your part and end the cheating and take a step toward (you and Bob growing old together in an open and honest way. ) You would like to be with him "out in the light."

But not like just trading (cheating behind Alice's back) for (continuing the cheating affair out in the open) or (pressuring Alice to poly under duress). Changing what flavor of shadowy hinky doesn't make it LESS shadowy hinky. You want to be in the light. You want to start living more honest.

• He will either decide to follow you into the light and clean up his mess on his side. Bob will file for divorce from Alice. Rather than procrastinating some more on that.
• Or he will wimp out, drop you, and keep right on procrastinating. You will have to deal with Bob not being what you thought after all.

Either way? Win for you. The cheating ends, you aren't married any more. With or without Bob?

YOU at least, get to step into the light and live your life more authentically and more honestly. And hopefully more happy.

It was her renaissance and she was enjoying every minute of it.

Note how happy you were when you shed the marriage that was bogging you down.

You sound like you are ready for your 2nd rennaisance. Preferably with Bob, but ok with out him. Ready to shed this cheating thing bogging you down.

So get on with it. Light beckons.

Galagirl

 

[ButterflyQueen]

I am going to use nicknames, which is recommended to make posts more understandable. Even though you said this is both of you writing together, I am going to respond as though Butterfly is the main writer, and call her bf Bob. I am going to edit out some of the language for the sake of brevity and clarity. See if I have it right.

It's unrealistic to expect sex to be just that. That's not how our bodies/psyches are designed to work. There are bonding hormones that appear during sex, which can make us fall in love if we are compatible.











I am not surprised. A fling for a few weeks is one thing. Living a double life for 6 years would be shocking to all but the most open-minded of spouses. Alice didn't sound particularly open-minded to me.



It doesn't sound like she "secretly" resents it.





Therapy, years of rebuilding trust, or divorce. You're for poly, Bob is struggling, trying to have his cake and eat it too, Alice is against it. This sounds rather hopeless at the moment.

He can't make you both happy. He could only make you happy by divorcing Alice. (Would you trust Bob never to cheat on you, btw?)

Yes, but in your case, after a 6 year affair, probably not.

Sure! Lots of us here have that. But we started it ethically, based on research and mutual respect and understanding, good communication, honesty, etc.

Ethics is ethics, though. Bob can't expect to be rewarded for cheating. And as his cheating partner, you now are also suffering from helping him to hide and lie all those years. It's consequences.

It sounds like Bob and Alice need therapy. Or he needs to make a choice, you or Alice. You both naively thought Alice would agree to being in a poly relationship after Bob dropped the bomb that he'd been unfaithful for 6 years. I am not sure of the timeline, but if they've been together 13 years, and he's been with you 6, that is half their relationship. Of course Alice is in shock.

This is not (yet) polyamory. It is an affair being practiced out in the open. You don't seem to have any empathy for Alice. You want her to just go along with this whole thing, after having been deceived for 6 years, or go away. And Bob is now being a bad "hinge." You resent Alice, she resents you, you both resent the time Bob spends with his other woman. Alice has a hold on him, for whatever it is she provides for Bob. Laundry? Meals? A cuddly TV companion? Money? Something else?

Do Bob and Alice have children? Is she ashamed to be the victim of this affair? Would her friends and family judge her and Bob? Pity her? Do you all live in a conservative area? Would she lose her family, friends? Could Bob lose his job? (Or lose his kids, if any?) It sounds very humiliating for her to restructure her whole understanding of how relationships work, and to "come out of the shadows" as the inadequate wife that Bob strayed away from. Divorce is common, but polyamory is still quite a new social phenomenon, and she doesn't sound like the groundbreaking type.

I'm sure it would be kinder for Bob to just ask her for a divorce, as you asked your ex h. Poly can come from admitted affairs, but it is a long, very complicated and difficult road. Bob would need to rebuild trust with Alice, and that would take a lot of time away from you and Bob's time spent together. You don't want that. You just want to wave a magic wand and make the wife go away. That's how affairs usually go. The husband usually does not leave the wife. It takes real courage to do that, and someone who cheated for 6 years rather than come clean is obviously lacking in courage.

I'm a bit of a word nerd and boy did I love you making sense of my non-sense.
The reason that I mention the reality that she might secretly resent anything poly or non-traditional is because they did some swinging early on in their marriage and he finally came around to the fact that she didn't enjoy it and did it only for him. That is a bit of a trend for other things he tried to introduce to their relationship. She's basically vanilla but not even pure vanilla...more like the cheap imitation, store brand. And I'm sure it makes a lot more sense to add that he and I live a D/s dynamic inside and outside of the bedroom. Despite having life or death in my hands all day long, I enjoy nothing more than him collaring me on my knees before him, and finding bliss in hard core BDSM together. He is my Master in every way. By choice. And I his slave. By choice. And the trust it evokes to share that dynamic is intoxicating. And as part of my deep desire to please him (because it brings me a drug like euphoria), we enjoy threesomes and human toys for mutual consumption. By wonderful, overwhelming choice. And I completely trust him to not cheat on me. Mostly because he wouldn't dare rob me of a dessert we could and have shared.
Bob does like cake and I happily feed him the flavor of the month.
I AM happy. Alice may or not be. I'm really not sure. My guess is that she's trying to figure it all out. But I'm 97% happy. That's totally an A+. I'm completely OK with sharing him and him getting his stale cake from her too. Doesn't bother me a bit. But, I don't want to be anyone's secret and I won't be. It was our defining moment (thread title). Now we get to go out and act like any kinky, loving couple does anywhere we are.
I don't think that ethics is ethics. I'm happy and having a good time. So is he. We love each other to death with or without clothes on. I think it's not only ok that we're together...it's wonderful that we're together.
From a timeline perspective he had hooked up with dozens of women over many years of their marriage prior to me without her knowledge. We just happened to connect in a different way and it's been one adventure after another together. So no, I'm not even close to the first person that he cheated on her with but I trust completely that I will be his last. (Imagining the open jaws with that statement make me smile). Honestly, he doesn't have to cheat any more. If he wants to do something...poof...we do it. And I enjoy the hell out of sharing that.
It's not that I don't have empathy for Alice, per se. I am ambivalent. I am simply in love with her husband who is my best friend and favorite past time. She happens to be married to him. I guess I'm of a go along or move along mentality.
Couldn't really tell you what he sees in her but that's his thing. I certainly don't get the impression he's head over heels for her. But honestly, she's not attractive, smart or interesting and doesn't have a domestic bone in her body. She has a basic low level entry job and will retire never having achieved anything in her life. A bad day for her would be losing the TV remote. But, she's his and I have to grocery shop sometime. She would definitely be at risk of dying alone at this point, as any options interested in her would be slim. Afraid of isolation, perhaps?
You are so right. He may never leave her. But he doesn't have to. I am happy to spend my life as her relational equal and there is not enough money in the world to make me want what they share.

 

[icesong]

Your posts seem a bit contradictory with each other - I'm not sure that the number of questions/unmet needs you have in your first post match up with the "97% happy" in your second. Not saying they have to, but I do think that it's something you should think about...

Not to mention that if I felt *that* contemptuous of a partners' other partner, I'd have second thoughts about what keeping that other partner said about them, no matter HOW addicted to kink/bliss with them I was. (And I'm collared too so I get it... but I couldn't respect an Owner who had a partner that I thought was "not attractive, smart or interesting" and "would never achieve anything in their life". )

 

[ButterflyQueen]

That was rough to read in that writing style. Let me sum up in my own words. You correct me if I get the basics wrong, ok?

• You and your BF Bob were in dead bedroom marriages and took up together as cheating affair partners rather than ending it with the spouses in a more forthright way.
• Didn't expect to fall in love but did.
• On your end after cheating for 4 years? You eventually divorced and cleaned up your side of the mess. It came as no surprise to your spouse. It was liberating and a time of joy for you. At that time you did not expect Bob to clean up his side.
• Time goes on. At 5 years in, you want to stop lurking in the shadows and step into the light. End all this hinky. So does Bob. Spend a year struggling how to tell his wife.
• After cheating for 6 years he finally came clean to his wife Alice. It is now mess.
  • Both underestimated her reaction.
  • You suggested polyamory as the bandaid so nobody has to break up.
  • Alice does not want poly. Very few people are going to jump for joy at hearing their spouse say "Guess what? I've been cheating for 6 years. Now I want to come clean and practice poly. Since I've become so transparent and honest about it in the last 2 minutes? You are up for doing polyamory now, right? With me as the hinge and you and my secret GF as my poly partners. Because me loving my GF doesn't mean I don't love you."
  • When none of this experience is kind or loving behavior from Bob to Alice.
  • And none of this experience is kind or loving behavior from you to Alice. Or gregarious, outgoing, generous or whimsical. Alice's experience of you is a stranger who helped her cheating spouse keep secrets that hurt Alice.
  • Alice has no reason to be thrilled with either of you right now. Or trust either of you.
• 5 mos or so after coming clean? You and Alice met. It was not great.
• In the end you value Bob's happiness and would step aside.
• At this time nobody is really happy here.

So....

If your highest value right now is to "step out of the shadows and into the light" and live more authentic and honest? You could align your behaviors to that goal.

Even if some of the process is going to be uncomfortable.




So take the risk, step aside, and plump for happy. YOUR happy.

Tell him you are going to do your part and end the cheating and take a step toward (you and Bob growing old together in an open and honest way. ) You would like to be with him "out in the light."

But not like just trading (cheating behind Alice's back) for (continuing the cheating affair out in the open) or (pressuring Alice to poly under duress). Changing what flavor of shadowy hinky doesn't make it LESS shadowy hinky. You want to be in the light. You want to start living more honest.

• He will either decide to follow you into the light and clean up his mess on his side. Bob will file for divorce from Alice. Rather than procrastinating some more on that.
• Or he will wimp out, drop you, and keep right on procrastinating. You will have to deal with Bob not being what you thought after all.

Either way? Win for you. The cheating ends, you aren't married any more. With or without Bob?

YOU at least, get to step into the light and live your life more authentically and more honestly. And hopefully more happy.



Note how happy you were when you shed the marriage that was bogging you down.

You sound like you are ready for your 2nd rennaisance. Preferably with Bob, but ok with out him. Ready to shed this cheating thing bogging you down.

So get on with it. Light beckons.

Galagirl

Unfortunately I think your totally valid assumption is that I care at all about Alice. I don't. And none of this is a moral cleansing for either of us. I've not got an ounce of regret in me about our wonderful relationship. It was never about living a more honorable life. It was about finally owning up to the fact that we love each other and being over having to hide it. It's much too beautiful to have to live in the shadows (metaphorically for a place where no one can see us, not anything nefarious). The light is about our happy place together anywhere we want to be.
But if Alice was a priority of mine at all, that was some good advice.

I suggested poly not out of desperation but out of my over the top personality that the more the merrier. If she were rocking the idea and at all appealing, it could have been a sweet arrangement.

I totally understand that right now she can not and maybe will never see me as someone she wants to hang out with or enjoy being around. From our 2 hours together, I couldn't get away from her fast enough. She was the most annoying person I've ever met. I had to excuse myself just not to hear the sound of her voice any more. She's THAT kind of person. Not dinner table poly. Ear plug poly.

Looking forward to your take as this wreck we're navigating progresses. Someone driving the biggest piece of shit car ever can still be inherently happy. And I am. Probably why I give him space to love who he loves. He sees something in her that I don't and that's ok.

 

[ButterflyQueen]

Your posts seem a bit contradictory with each other - I'm not sure that the number of questions/unmet needs you have in your first post match up with the "97% happy" in your second. Not saying they have to, but I do think that it's something you should think about...

Not to mention that if I felt *that* contemptuous of a partners' other partner, I'd have second thoughts about what keeping that other partner said about them, no matter HOW addicted to kink/bliss with them I was. (And I'm collared too so I get it... but I couldn't respect an Owner who had a partner that I thought was "not attractive, smart or interesting" and "would never achieve anything in their life". )

The questions were really geared for him and how he might go about making this work or not. My unmet needs are very few and I'm an inherently happy girl in general. Probably how I sat there and watched 28 years of a broken marriage fly by. I don't regret a day of our six years together (6 years to the day, today!). I definitely don't see what he sees in her but I'm still thinking he walks on water. If she does it for him. So be it.

 

[GalaGirl]

You don't have to care about Alice. Some people don't have anything in common with their metas and want very parallel poly. You do sound like you care about you. And you care about Bob.

My point is that this isn't polyamory at this point in time. It's still a cheating affair but Alice knows now.
And you STILL don't have to care about Alice. But you do have to care about YOUR well being. (And maybe care some about Bob.)

You might be up for changing to poly like "I don't get what you see in her, but whatevs. Date who you want, Bob. The more the merrier."

But Alice's view of poly is going to be more like "WTF? Spouse cheating for 6 years and now wants to me to change to a poly V?"

Bob has to deal with two very different things here with his partners.

If you are cool with things how they are? I think you could step back in one of two ways so YOUR well-being can stay somewhat ok during all this.

1) You can ignore all this marriage train wreck stuff because YOU are 97% happy and good enough with what you are getting from Bob.

You step back and set some personal boundaries with BOB while continuing to date him.

You expect Bob to deal with his marriage dissolution, repair, or whatever it is to be on his own on that side. WITHOUT your assistance. He can do the labor of posting online for help and suggestions rather than you. Can tell him to stop telling you his problems with his wife. You don't care to know, deal with it, or be his free therapist or labor force to do research for him.

(You + Bob) time is for (you + Bob). Not (you sitting around listening to Bob go on about (Bob + wife.))

Bob leaking things from that side over on to you is poor behavior.

2) You can't ignore the marriage train wreck because how BOB is choosing to deal with this is now having an impact on your life and (you+Bob) relationship.

You step way back to remove any more Bob excuses and expect him to get on with his divorce before he can date you again.

Because Bob is spending all his time assuaging/convincing Alice, and it's biting into your time with Bob. You don't like it. You wish that instead of being like Wife #2, that Wife #1 didn't exist. When Alice can exist fine if BOB would make some firm decisions instead of farting about. You are letting your soft feelings for Bob excuse his poor behavior and you hang it on Alice. Cuz it's always easier to blame the meta than take a good look at the hinge.

So if you want to hurry it along and get back to fun times? You change your mind about having no expectation for Bob to clean up his blah marriage. You could step way back and give him ALL his free time back. No dates with you. Because now you DO expect him to sort this meh marriage by ending it rather than keep dragging on.

Not because you care about Alice, but because it is cutting into YOUR time and you care about YOU. If the goal is you and Bob happily ever after, no longer hiding the relationship, growing old together? And Bob wants that too?

If you step way back? You will see if he's actually gonna deliver the goods or just pokey around on his meh marriage some more making excuses. First that married life is too hard to untangle. Then it's a year of "I need to figure out how to tell." Then tells, but now needing time to "convince her to poly" when she's already said nope. Then it's... some new excuse?

I don't know any of you and I'm not trying to be mean or rude.

But my reaction is kinda like...

6 years is plenty, Bob. Get off the fence. You already told her about the affair. Skip the poly side trip since Alice doesn't want any. It's just a waste of time and energy. Have the gumption to move on to trial separation at least, if not outright divorce. So you can start living "out and free" with Butterfly and see what that is like. Plump for happy like Butterfly is doing.


You asked how Bob can make both or one woman happy.

You claim you are already happy. Solved for you.

He sounds like he's making Alice unhappy and pretty much the only way he MIGHT make her happy is to ditch you. Maybe. Because their thing may be too beyond repair at this point.

If you two ARE better suited and he agrees? Stop mucking about Bob, end it with your wife and move on with your Butterfly happy ever after. Why is Bob behaving this way? I'm not a fan of namby-pamby. I like being firm of purpose. I think Bob could make up his mind and then get ON with it.

Like... if this were poly? I'd tell you that you sound like you kinda blame the meta for being boring and blah because you want think well of Bob. But really Bob is behaving like a sloppy hinge and doing some poor behaviors to you and to his wife. Like saying whatever to each one in the moment, just wanting to keep both of you on his string. And you are still too love blind to see it maybe. And/or prefer to just dump it all on Alice because she's basically a stranger to you, she's blah, so handy scapegoat.

But this isn't poly -- it's a known cheating affair at this point. But it's kinda the same for poor behaviors from Bob.

I get YOU find Bob so great and fascinating.

Me? I'm like "Good sex and good kink? That's nice. But if it were me? And I got rid of my meh marriage and want to have fun and be free? No longer hide the relationship? And I date Bob who SAYS he wants same. But in ACTIONS Bob tells Alice but just carries on with his meh marriage like an albatross around his neck? That is now spoiling MY good time? Because he's bringing me his drama problems rather than solving them himself?"

The main problem is BOB. It's kinda like shit or get off the pot, Bob. Get more firm of purpose and deliver the goods already. Because for me? I like bold action, not wishy washy namby pamby stuff. I'd step waaaay back to remove all his excuses. Then see if he delivers or not.

But I am not you. I am not in this thing.

I guess you could wait and see. Do nothing. See if it stays at 97% happy for you or if it starts to run down.

Again, you do NOT have to care about Alice.

If you care about you? You may have to figure out how to set some strong personal boundaries with BOB so he's not sucking YOU dry with his marriage problems.

Don't be so love blind over Bob that you ignore or excuse his poor behaviors towards YOU.

If you are over hiding it? And want to move ON and be in the light? Move ON then.

And tell Bob you expect him to do same. Step it up, Bob.

GG

 

[ButterflyQueen]

You are a Rock Star.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

The reality is that as you all get older, its going to become more likely that Married BF and wife mutually rely on the institution of their marriage to care for each other. Those of us in long term multi-partner relationships of all kinds take steps to try and provide some assurance for each other in that respect, sometimes just clarification of boundaries, there are legal ways to formalise this too.

My point is that without the support of all parties, it's very easy for the person in your position to be frozen out at a time when a hinge partner cannot advocate for themselves. And sometimes even when they can in theory, but the situation requires them to not rock any already sinking boats.

For instance, Annie is married to Ken, Ken dates Sandy. Ken is in an accident and in a critical condition in hospital. Annie decides whether Sandy gets to see Ken as a "family member" or not because she is wife.

I'm saying this because you seem awfully confident. Like naively so. It sounds like you think good sex, kink, genuine chemistry and undying love is enough to counter the institution that is marriage, without the married couple being a significant joint force is dismantling its influence.

All of what you say could be absolutely true, and the chances of him ultimately choosing you is still quite low. And you know what? The chances of your relationship breaking down even if he does choose you is high, just because navigating such a split usually puts undue pressure on the relationship in a variety of ways. A common one is that the financial pressure of divorce plus the inflexibility of a betrayed spouse means they're forced to live with the affair partner full-time. Which sounds like bliss, until reality sets in.

 

[Magdlyn]

Butterfly, you have some real insousiance going on. You are dating a married man who cheated on his wife dozens of times before you came along and appeared to be the love of his life, the perfect slave, yada yada.

I don't know what kind of marriage Bob has going on with Alice. Is she so out to lunch she has never missed him, with all the time he has been spending with other women over the years, like, all their married life? He's carrying on in kink circles while she's home, doing her "boring" job, riding a horse, watching TV? What is the actual point?

I see you dehumanize kinksters who want to be used as your toys or pets. But they do that consensually. Maybe you're so used to that dynamic that you don't care that Alice is not consenting to this affair. She is being coerced. She was apparently blindsided.

Personally, I couldn't respect a master who doesn't have the balls to break up with a spouse so he and I could live, go out, mingle with our friends, together officially. Right now, you and he are going out with friends as a seemingly "official" couple. Maybe they don't know about his "vanilla" life with Alice. Maybe they all know, and just like you, they don't give a fuck. I feel sorry for her, myself.

I mean, Kate Hepburn and Spencer Tracy were a well-known couple, but they never married because his wife was Catholic and didn't believe in divorce. So they just carried on. But that was the 1940s. Surely, in 2023, Bob could break up with Ann so he's not tied to her legally and financially. Maybe he's afraid of paying her a hefty alimony sum.

Either way, I'd step back until he cleans up his mess. I wouldn't submit to a man who is acting in this shady manner.

Polyamory is ETHICAL non-monogamy. This is a board for polyamory. You all are not practicing polyamory. So, sorry, you're not going to get a lot of sympathy here.