Defining your (non-escalator) relationship?

icesong

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How do you even have those conversations? I have a lot of paranoia that asking for anything will end up blowing up in my face, so I have this tendency to just relationships _be_ without trying to shape them. I think this isn't working quite as well as I'd like though.

AnotherArtist and I have been seeing each other for over a year, slipped into calling each other boyfriend/girlfriend (though I don't love those terms) somewhere along the way. And yet I keep feeling like he'd want something deeper - I think I might too and we're both being too cautious to say so.

It's not that I ever see us living together or anything like that, I just want there to be some sort of agreed upon ... What we could be if things work out? Not a goal so much as a place we'd be happy to end up?

And I think there are feelings there I'm not quite willing to just let myself feel in the absence of those conversations. So they just need to happen... But I have no idea how to even bring that up.
 
Yes, we discuss this regularly. I just signed a long lease on my office, and have *zero* plans of moving, and his kids mean he won't be moving either. So we are definitely not on the 'escalator'. It confuses everyone, especially Djinn. But sometimes it confuses us too.

So, yes, we have "DTR" (define the relationship) conversations regularly. We still have some work to do in that area, but I think we've done some good work and are in a good place :)
 
I have a lot of paranoia that asking for anything will end up blowing up in my face, so I have this tendency to just relationships _be_ without trying to shape them. I think this isn't working quite as well as I'd like though.

This is where everything emanates from - your own perspective. All the conversations in the world won't change the relationship into something that feels secure to you. You have to come to a secure place and then your relationship will reflect that. Things aren't working well when you just let the relationship "be" because your thoughts and intentions are full of fear and doubt, which you see come to life in how the relationship "is." The way to make your relationship better is not to have conversation after conversation because that's asking him to make it all better and achieve the impossible. He can never go against the tide you've got going. You've got to work on your story ("I have a lot of paranoia that anything will end up blowing up in my face") and find a better way to see yourself, irrespective of what he is doing. That is how you change a relationship for the better. That is what people mean when they say to let a relationship develop organically. When both people can find a generally positive, stable place in themselves, they come together to form a generally positive and stable relationship that evolves naturally without anyone forcing it. You don't want to shape the relationship, you want to shape you.

Whether your relationship is on an escalator or not, this always applies. There's a tendency to look to the steps of an escalator to provide signals of increasing security, but they really cannot give you true security. A non-escalator relationship is simply one in which those outward focused steps to security don't exist.




And I think there are feelings there I'm not quite willing to just let myself feel in the absence of those conversations.
This is just insecurity. You don't have to declare your love from a balcony, but you certainly would feel a whole lot better if you could, in your own mind, feel pride and peace in the feelings that you have for him. Not letting yourself feel until he gives you confirmation that your feelings are OK, that is simply a signal that you're not in a secure place. You actually cannot "not let yourself feel," because you already do feel what you feel for him. Attempting to hold back and resist your feelings is what hurts, the fear is what hurts. If you just own your love and let it flow, resistance free no matter what, you feel great.
 
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I love the clarity I've gained on the whole "non-escalator" concept. When I first jumped out into dating after my marriage ended, I was very confused by society's relationship labels. I don't want to live with someone or make babies or open a joint account or even look in that direction ever. My kids are teens and I've had my tubes tied, I love having my own space (well, sharing with my offspring, but that's different.) I want mature and independent people who don't need to team up with me and share these life-responsibilities. Who manage their own lives.

So... Does that mean I want "casual" relationships?

I thought so at first. Well that led me right into a mess. No, in fact, I do tend to get attached sometimes and I'd prefer to be let to do that. So having an interaction where the expectation is FB or FWB is not enough. And I don't want to rack up a ton of partners either, I've already got a long enough list. So "casual" was definitely NOT what I was after!

So how do I define my non-escalator relationships? I refer to all of them as my "loves." Sometimes my lovers, if I feel like being a little saucy. The Analyst is my boyfriend, a word he chose to use and I'm fine with. He considers himself boyfriend to both Fire and me, and we are his girlfriends. OK. Fire and Hefe are married. It's harder for me to label them, and I use different words depending on who I'm talking to. Sometimes it's "the other lady in my poly group" sometimes they are merely "my friends" and sometimes I can call them lovers or even "My Sensualists." (That best describes their role in terms of kink and play.)

And then there is Zen. Again, that depends on who I'm talking to. I never use the word "boyfriend" with him though he may call me his "girlfriend" (I don't really know.) From my perspective, he's my parents' age, so it's weird to me to call him "boyfriend." Sometimes I refer to him as "My Sadist." Sometimes just by name.
 
Woody and I call each other boyfriend and girlfriend; I told him I don't particularly care for those terms, but for the sake of convenience I went along with it. (I had a similar conversation with my ex-boyfriend about two months into our relationship; he and I also settled for boyfriend and girlfriend because we couldn't come up with anything else.) Woody and I don't actually usually refer to each other as Dom and sub, except that I do on here. He's told some of his friends, and of course his other partners, that I'm his sub, but when he talks to them about me, or when he introduces me to someone new, he calls me his girlfriend.

We aren't on any escalator; he's said that he loves having me consider his house my home, and he refers to the bedroom as *our* bedroom, but I don't think we're actually planning to move in together at any point. On the other hand, we have agreed that we would like to be in each other's lives permanently. It just won't be the same as it would be if I weren't married to someone else. I would tend to assume he's had similar conversations with his other partners, especially since Stella and Franki have been with him for 15 and 20-something years respectively.
 
I just saw a post on Facebook that illustrated my frustration with assumptions about escalator relationship styles...

It said, "There is a huge difference between fuckable and wifeable."

I need to figure out how to get an honest answer out of men before I date them, if they believe it's one or the other, or they believe that there is a broad spectrum (haha...get it...a "broad" spectrum...lol) between the two.

Apparently the notion that a woman would want to be more than just a guy's sex toy, yet not want to ~wife~ him, is weird to some people.
 
Hi icesong,

I take it the conversations you want to have are conversations about what to call yourselves relationship-wise? or conversations about how to define what you are to each other? or both?

FWIW, I've seen the word "partners" used to describe people who don't necessarily live together. But you can of course use whatever word you feel fits best.

I hope you get that worked out.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Definitely more the latter than the former. I don't really care what we *call* it, I care that we have the same expectations / desires and roughly compatible feelings. I don't really want to be working from the "romantic relationship" playbook if he's still on "FWB", y'know?
 
You want to make sure you're both on the same page (as far as the relationship is concerned).
 
How do you even have those conversations? I have a lot of paranoia that asking for anything will end up blowing up in my face, so I have this tendency to just relationships _be_ without trying to shape them. I think this isn't working quite as well as I'd like though.
Okay, my initial response to this first paragraph of yours is to ask, "What's wrong with just letting your relationships be?" Must you shape them, and make sure they are "going somewhere" in order to feel like they are good and healthy and satisfying? What about this approach isn't going as well as you'd like? Or, rather, what is it you'd like to see happening in your non-escalator relationship that isn't?

AnotherArtist and I have been seeing each other for over a year . . . I keep feeling like he'd want something deeper - I think I might too and we're both being too cautious to say so.

It's not that I ever see us living together or anything like that, I just want there to be some sort of agreed upon ... What we could be if things work out? Not a goal so much as a place we'd be happy to end up?
Men tend to be pretty simple creatures, usually. If they are unhappy, you would know it. They don't tend to get all wrapped up in complicated thoughts and questions about their relationships like women often do. You could simply ask him if he wants something deeper. Basically, in my experience, if a guy is happy and satisfied, he sticks around. That's about it. So, I wonder if you are sensing something that is actually going on with him, or if it's an unease inside of yourself that you might be projecting onto him.

So, in the above quote, you are saying you don't want to live with him, but after a year you are still hoping it will work out. And you believe there should be some kind of end goal to reach together. What kind of goal? It sounds to me like, since this relationship isn't following the societally-expected path towards marriage (and will never be able to, since you're already married), you're not confident about what you have and not sure what you "should" want. And why are you still wondering if it will work out of you've been together for over a year? Is there something missing that would tell you to relax, that it's all okay?

And I think there are feelings there I'm not quite willing to just let myself feel in the absence of those conversations. So they just need to happen... But I have no idea how to even bring that up.
Before you broach the subject with AnotherArtist, I think you need to do some soul-searching and get really clear with yourself about what you want and whether you actually need this relationship to move in a certain direction. Or is it that you are thinking you should steer it somewhere because that's what you've been taught in society to do? Maybe you are actually quite happy and satisfied with it as it is, but don't really think you should be -- because isn't it supposed to be "more than this?" Or maybe there is a glaring problem you are avoiding and you're afraid to really examine what is wrong. I don't know, but I think you need to get more specific when you envision what you want. How would your relationship look, in your mind's eye, if it settled into some sort of goal?
 
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I keep feeling like he'd want something deeper - I think I might too and we're both being too cautious to say so.

I have no idea how to even bring that up.

I think you are overthinking it. If there's something you want to know, just ask. Something like...

"AnotherArtist, I think I might want to cultivate something deeper than FWB. I keep getting the feeling like you'd want something deeper too. Am I thinking wrong? "​

See if he says yes or no. If yes? You could say this --

"I don't really care what we *call* it. I care that we have the same expectations / desires and roughly compatible feelings. I don't really want to be working from the "romantic relationship" playbook if you are on "FWB", y'know?"

Then you could have some conversation about figuring out what that "deeper" means to each of you, what you are going to call it, what behaviors would stay the same, and what behaviors would change.

Then you are both on the same page.

Keep this simpler on yourself.

Galagirl
 
Okay, my initial response to this first paragraph of yours is to ask, "What's wrong with just letting your relationships be?" Must you shape them, and make sure they are "going somewhere" in order to feel like they are good and healthy and satisfying? What about this approach isn't going as well as you'd like? Or, rather, what is it you'd like to see happening in your non-escalator relationship that isn't?

Men tend to be pretty simple creatures, usually. If they are unhappy, you would know it. They don't tend to get all wrapped up in complicated thoughts and questions about their relationships like women often do. You could simply ask him if he wants something deeper.

So there's sort of two things going on here. When I say "just let a relationship be", what I actually mean is a terrible tendency to not actually express *any* needs - like, to the point that I second guess whether or not I should even suggest the next time we see each other because I'm afraid of being perceived as needy or asking too much from people. It's a passive streak that I don't particularly like about myself.

The problem with this approach in the context of AnotherArtist, is, as I told Kevin, is that I don't know whether he has the same romantic feelings towards me as I do him right now - and it's the lack of knowledge that's the problem, because not knowing makes me feel very insecure.

So, in the above quote, you are saying you don't want to live with him, but after a year you are still hoping it will work out. And you believe there should be some kind of end goal to reach together. What kind of goal? It sounds to me like, since this relationship isn't following the societally-expected path towards marriage (and will never be able to, since you're already married), you're not confident about what you have and not sure what you "should" want. And why are you still wondering if it will work out of you've been together for over a year? Is there something missing that would tell you to relax, that it's all okay?

The thing that's missing is, I think, verbal clarification of what we are to each other. Which sounds like an easy thing to ask for, I know, and for most people perhaps it would be. But I'm having a very hard time with this because the last two relationships I attempted to gain clarity on ended either immediately or very soon thereafter. Not because I asked, not *really*, but still.

I mean (and obviously this isn't clear from what I've said above, given your questions), the answer to that question doesn't change particularly much from a practical point of view, at least I don't think it does - as I said, I doubt we'll see each other much more often even if the answer is yes, there's romantic feelings on both sides. But it does give me... more security, more confidence. More ability to just randomly say hi if I'm thinking of him and not sit there and dither over whether that's a good idea or not.


Before you broach the subject with AnotherArtist, I think you need to do some soul-searching and get really clear with yourself about what you want and whether you actually need this relationship to move in a certain direction. Or is it that you are thinking you should steer it somewhere because that's what you've been taught in society to do? Maybe you are actually quite happy and satisfied with it as it is, but don't really think you should be -- because isn't it supposed to be "more than this?" Or maybe there is a glaring problem you are avoiding and you're afraid to really examine what is wrong. I don't know, but I think you need to get more specific when you envision what you want. How would your relationship look, in your mind's eye, if it settled into some sort of goal?

I think if I'm honest, my __ideal__ relationship has a bit more daily contact than the pattern that we've settled into, and perhaps a little bit more sense of being a priority.

Some of my more solo-poly friends in other forums talk about wanting to share more of their mundane life with their lovers; I'm not 100% sure whether that's something I want in the case of AnotherArtist or not. Some days I think yes (just randomly hanging out with him and TheKnight and my kid, who I really ought to nickname on here, as I've done a few times this year is quite lovely. And other days I think nope, it's lovely to have an escape from domesticity...

Other than the more-sporadic-contact-than-I-would-like, this is actually a pretty happy/healthy relationship - it's just the lack of clarity makes me overanalyze. So honestly my "goal" would just be to have something almost identical relationship to what we have but with... stated intention. :D Or as I put it the other day:
... even though I do want a deeper relationship with him I don't, necessarily, want THAT much more time together. Maybe a more "guaranteed" date (defined as at least a few hours together, ideally with an overnight but not required) once a week, or close to it, with a few random in between extras - coffee or drinks or just random come over and hang out - sometimes. And I feel a little bit bad about asking for that because it's sometimes hard for me to schedule as well - kid, nesting partner with active dating life, local relatives... and only going to get more difficult (ish?) given that it looks like TheKnight is about to take a job that requires a lot more travel.
 
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So ... you want a more involved relationship, but you're not sure how to go about that?
 
Pretty much, yes. And I know it sounds weird that I'm so tied in knots around this, but I've really never had a relationship progress from more casual to more involved - both TheKnight and HipsterBoy were sort of instantly entangled, never casual.
 
I think I understand.
 
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