Do I speak up or butt out?

london said:
Because she knows how I'd answer her question about what she should do. Butt out. The only difference in this thread is that mostly everyone agrees. I did mention that she would know my answer and I do believe that the reason she has to ask this is because she does have a propensity to control other people. That's what I've gathered from what she has said elsewhere. I've said it there too and I'm simply highlighting that this thread is another example of that. As I said, the only difference is that other people agree that not butting out and/or finding it overly difficult to allow others to have their own relationships (and make their own mistakes) is a problematic behaviour.
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This is what I am talking about, London. You are beating a dead horse. Actions like these are why some posters find you abrasive. You don't have to agree with anyone. You can give your stance. There is no need to keep hammering it over and over, while cutting down others who disagree with you.
 
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And I did. I said yes, butt out and overall sort out this controlling behaviour. That is my stance. Goodness me.
 
Okay, people, no need to argue. Dagferi and I said pretty much said the same thing London did, but for some reason we were only ignored by the OP while London was singled out. Don't know why. To me, it's pretty obvious that the topic itself reveals the OP's need to try and control things, even in others' lives where she should butt out.

And Dagferi, you can be just as blunt as London and have been criticized by members for hammering your viewpoint home just as much as she has, so really... "pot, meet kettle." Anyway, I have also been told I am too direct and harsh. Some people come here only wanting to read advice that tells them they are right and to keep doing what they're doing. Tell 'em bluntly how we see it and suddenly we're on their shit list because they didn't get what they wanted. Whatev -- a meta-discussion (discussing the discussion) is a waste of time and energy. Let's stay on topic, 'k?
 
Pain happens. Pain is how we grow. Trying to prevent people from experiencing pain is equivalent to preventing them from growing. I can't speak for Sam, but I personally don't have room in my life for people who try to prevent me from growing.

I believe the role of a friend is to be there when someone does experience pain, to show them empathy and support them as they grow and learn.

If sex is important to Sam, it's his responsibility to raise that point before spending money on a plane ticket. If celibacy is a deal-breaker for him, then that's something he'll need to learn to bring up early in the dating stages with any partner. Bringing it up for him at this stage is unlikely to drive that message home in the same way that living through the experience would do.

I'm sure you have enough challenges to meet in your own life and your own relationships without saving other people from facing their own challenges. It might be worthwhile to check yourself and see if there's a chance you're trying to manage other people as a way to avoid managing yourself. You wouldn't be the first.
 
I'm going to agree with everyone else and say that you should let him experience his relationships himself, but I'm going to give you an example.

A few years ago, we invited a friend to have a threesome with the female members of our quad, as long as his girlfriend was okay with it. We gave him a couple weeks time to get back with us after checking in with her.

He came back saying she was not only okay with it, but also wanted a relationship with my boyfriend, Wendigo. Without checking in with her, we went ahead with the threesome, because this was a lifelong friend of over 15 years, whom we trusted implicitly.

A week later, I bumped into her at the doctor's office and she said that she hadn't realized Wendigo and I were sexually/romantically involved when her boyfriend asked her. She thought we were "cuddle buddies." She wasn't interested in being sexual with Wendigo, but was interested in a cuddle date. I was okay with that, thinking she'd discussed this with her boyfriend. I let it alone.

But in talking with Wendigo, I realized our mutual friend was still talking up a sexual/romantic relationship to him. I started to worry that he was going to get hurt. I knew that he wouldn't pressure her for more if she told him she didn't want that, but I knew he was crushing on her. I hoped to save him from pain and embarrassment. They had their cuddle date and Wendigo gave her a massage, but she kept insisting his hands stay above her waist.

When her boyfriend came home, he implied to Wendigo that he should just give her time to warm up to the idea.

Wendigo expressed his frustrations to me. I tried to tell him what I knew, but he just saw it as jealousy at the time and was upset that I'd talked to her about us at all without asking him first. (We weren't out to everyone back then, but she asked and her boyfriend knew.) It was probably 3 more weeks of our mutual friend telling Wendigo one thing, and his girlfriend telling him something else, that started to take the blinders off Wendigo's eyes.

And then I bumped into her at the doctor's, and she told me she was still thinking about the threesome offer, and it came out that she'd told her boyfriend she wanted to know if the threesome happened. She told me she'd just found out she was pregnant and her boyfriend had proposed;

I panicked, as the threesome had already happened. I went home and contacted Wendigo and shared what she'd told me, and showed him her chat logs with me, where she was telling me that she didn't want anything more than friendship with him, and that she saw sex as a spiritual connection that could only be shared with her soul mate.

I showed Wendigo the strange messages her boyfriend had sent me when I confronted him, saying if I was jealous, we could call it all off. And Wendigo showed me the lies her boyfriend had been feeding him. Wendigo realized that we were all complicit in this guy cheating on his gf, and that this guy had used both Wendigo's wife and girlfriend to do so. Wendigo was beyond furious. Wendigo's wife decided she could no longer be poly or a part of our quad.

In the end, Wendigo realized I hadn't been jealous, but he had to get hurt in the process to see that, because even when you have firsthand knowledge and the best intentions, when the person you love is interested in someone else, you're only going to come off as jealous until they see or hear it with their own eyes and ears.
 
In general, I am a fan of letting people manage their own relationships and make their own mistakes. That being said, however, I have come to see that it really does depend on your relationship with each person involved and how you have come by the knowledge that might be pertinent.

In my life the only people that I would be having this sort of conversations with in the first place are my partners and my VERY close friends. They know me well enough to know that I don't want to hear anything that is even close to a secret. I'm not saying that I report everything said to me; there is a difference between "private" and "secret." My partners and close friends trust my judgement when it comes to sharing information, and often ask my for my "honest opinion." I used to hem and haw around. Now I just give my opinion (when asked).

The closest we have come to this sort of dilemma recently was when Dude had dated Jane2 a bit (a few dates/encounters) before meeting Lotus. MrS and I had met Jane2 and had no particular issues, just "meh" type of reactions. Then we met Lotus. Oh WOW. She is awesome.

However, Lotus had some prior interactions with Jane2. One of her closest friends had been one of Jane2's prior metamours, and there had been issues. Therefore, Lotus had reservations about putting herself into that position. She did not want to put Dude in a "her or me" situation, but decided that she did not want to pursue a relationship with someone who was involved with someone that she had a previous (negative) history with.

So, Dude asks my opinion. I have one. I don't know Jane2 very well, but he, himself, commented that there was not much "chemistry" there. From the conversations I had had with Lotus, it seemed to me that she was a very thoughtful, insightful, mature woman and I trusted her judgement. I felt that she was well within her rights to choose not to become involved with someone if the dynamic didn't feel right to her. It's his life; he can date whom he wants. But my personal opinion was that Lotus was a better match for him and our version of polyamory. Was my opinion biased? YES! (During the course of the conversation, I, of course, had to point out all of the ways that my opinion was biased, in the spirit of full disclosure.)

Case-by-case basis. Keep your opinion to yourself, unless asked. Keep in mind the source of the information. Try to be objective and aware of your own biases.

JaneQ

P.S. We have had numerous conversations amongst the three of us (Dude, MrS and me) regarding what information should be shared. When Lotus was introduced to our polycule, we had the same conversations. Dude and Lotus are much more about full disclosure than MrS and me. They enjoy sharing and hearing details. MrS and I are more selective in the information that we want to have shared with us. I don't want graphic details of private moments. Broad strokes are good enough (along with knowing everyone is safe and on the same page).
 
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