Exhausted negotiating...need advice

C

confusedinpdx

New member
Hello...I could use some feedback/advice and i don't know where else to turn at the moment. I only have two friends who identify as poly/open and one is far away and the other is using this situation almost as leverage to get into me and my partners pants in a not super ethical way...

I'm 36, cis male, my cis female wife is 29. We've been married for 2 years and together for 6. I'd say we identify as both heteroflexible. I've previously been in an open relationship but my wife has not. We've been trying to negotiate the terms of our level of openness/polyness for almost 5 years of the relationship. At the beginning it seemed only natural that we would have other lovers as well as shared lovers and this was just a given. We had a couple fun threesomes with women we adore as friends and lovers. They never developed into more, though one love is still very much present in our life as a close and dear friend though we no longer are involved sexually. That was followed a few years later by a disastrous foursome with another couple and 2 unwise encounters with others (that were not agreed upon 😞). One was her with another guy (twice) while I was out of town, the other me when we were together at a party but things got a little dazed and confused. Otherwise, we've been pretty much monogamous.

Emotionally, we are pretty stable and secure and love one another deeply. I can't imagine myself with another as my primary. About the only argument we ever get into is when this discussion of openness comes up and we hit a wall that descends into frustration or worse, resentment. I am always the one bringing it up because for some reason of fear or insecurity my wife never brings it up even though I know she desires more when it comes to sex and relationships with others.

We've tried to negotiate in terms of whether we start with FWBs and date together, whether we date separately with stricter boundaries, whether we are looking for a triad or quad, or... etc. It feels like I'm always the one trying to get us on the same page and agree upon even one single boundary and she always ends up resorting to obstinate silence. I am doing my damndest to not be so overwhelming or "intense" but the conversation has gone on for years...with no clear boundaries or expectations...and I'm exhausted. And my needs are unmet.

I was stupid in my 20s and hurt people emotionally by being reckless. I'm doing my damndest as i grow older to approach all my relationships and these issues of life beyond the confines of monogamy as ethically and responsibly as possible. But I've reached a point where i dont know what the fu#k to do! It's like a full conversation still needs to be held and I'm already fed up with talking because it has largely gone nowhere.

And now that I travel a LOT for work, the neurosis of years of denying aspects of my sexual and emotional being in relation to other women is making it harder and harder to behave. And same goes for her since I found out what she got up to my first major work trip on the road.

i want us both to cultivate honest and fulfilling relationships with other people and couples and not have this terrible feeling like if i leave town she's gonna cheat or I might do the same because we're in constant monogamish/openness/poly limbo. 😱

Halp!
 
Take it from someone who has never brought up the conversation to his wife... If she's not bringing it up, then she really isn't all that interested. Could be for different reasons (guessing by the cheating), but maybe it's the relationship aspect that makes her nervous. It's possible that she might just be looking for occasional action with other people, but not looking for commitment.

If talking about it for years still hasn't gotten you two anywhere... Maybe you already have your answer.
 
I am sorry you struggle.

If this is your greatest want?

i want us both to cultivate honest and fulfilling relationships with other people and couples and not have this terrible feeling like if i leave town she's gonna cheat or I might do the same because we're in constant monogamish/openness/poly limbo.
Click to expand...

That can happen with you guys still being married to each other. Or not.

Why the silence? Is it that she doesn't want Open marriage any more? Or is it that she doesn't have the words to describe what she seeks? This isn't definitive, but maybe it helps the conversation if you can point to something. Like you like something a 1a or she likes something like a 2.

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles/models-of-open-relationships

Maybe there's elements to poly hell to talk about too.

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles/are-you-in-poly-hell

But if this is basically circular conversation that goes nowhere? And it's been going on for a long time? You may have to come to terms with it just NOT a "joyous yes" here.

So you could call it a "no" and then make your next choices from that perspective. That it's going to be a "no" on Open marriage.
  • Can you live with that?
  • Or do you need to disband?

One way or another, you can then become more able to move forward and be free from circular arguments.

Galagirl
 
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Hello confusedinpdx,

Given how much your wife has been resisting your attempts to converse about open/poly, I am inclined to think she doesn't want open/poly. The fact that she cheated on you the one time just means she wanted to cheat. And cheating is impossible if you talk about what's going on.

I don't know of any method you could use to convince your wife to have the conversation with you. You could threaten her with divorce if she doesn't talk, but I have a feeling that conversation would go badly. Honestly, you should ask yourself if you still want to be in this marriage. :(

Sorry I don't have any good advice at the moment.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
It could be, as others have said, that your wife is not interested in making agreements - that for whatever reason (shame? guilt? fear?) she cannot reconcile her desires for multiple relationships with her own ethics, and would prefer to stay in a cycle of suppression followed by 'lapses'. However, you don't give any mention in your post as to the kind of ideas you have, or for what reasonable boundaries look like to you. It could be that she sees anything you have so far suggested as unreasonable or impractical in some way, and would rather agree to nothing than agree to something that she knows won't work for her. I agree that it's strange she's not proposing her own ideas, but maybe she feels frustrated, and already knows that you want a more, or less, rigid structure than what would ultimately work best for her, so she's avoiding addressing that head on. I'm just throwing some alternative ideas out there for you to consider. Another thing to think about is that many people, on this forum and elsewhere, actually advocate a 'no rules' stance, with the logic being that if things are good between you and your partner, and you trust them, then rules are kind of unnecessary. You seem to think your relationship with her is in great shape, but does she agree? This can also be a strong reason to not want to discuss opening up at this time.

At the end of the day, you have a relatively simple choice to make, as does she. If being free to form relationships with others is something you need in order to be happy, then you need to take control of your life and pursue that. If you have a preferred set of guidelines or strategy already in mind, then perhaps your next step is to sit her down, explain that you'd really like her input, but that you've decided you cannot wait indefinitely on the open relationship thing, so this is what you propose: 1) these are the types of relationship I am planning to pursue; 2) unless you say otherwise this is the kind of information about these relationships that I suggest sharing with you; 3) these are the things I'm going to do more of/keep doing to keep our relationship healthy; 4) I suggest we try this strategy for X months before reviewing; and 5) if you want to explore connections with other people, these are my expectations for how I'd like us to handle that between us (make sure these are the same as what you set for yourself, no double standards). Rather than open ended discussion that goes nowhere, here you're giving her a clear choice between concrete options - this set of agreements, or we stay closed (or divorce, depending on how strongly you feel). Of course, you need to be prepared for the fact that she might choose to say no, not willing to try this. However, at least you will then know where you stand, and can take that information on board when deciding if remaining in this relationship is right for you.
 
I agree with what has already been said. To me it does sound like her resistance to talk about boundaries could be a resistance to the situation. As you say, you had some disastrous experiences already. For someone new to this, that could of soured her to the entire idea. I would suggest having a discussion on if she still wants to pursue open relationships.
 
I am not sure how much you two have read about Polyamory.

In the experience of the majority of seasoned polyamorists, going with no rules and respectful boundaries is best.

You talk about how you'd never want another "primary." But in life, we can not predict the future. There is no way you can honestly say, if you began to date in earnest, that you wouldn't fall for another so hard you'd want to make her a regular part of your life. Maybe not living together, or sharing finances, but you might want a kitchen table kind of poly, where she (or he) is around a lot. Where you meet each others' family and friends, take vacations together, help each other with household and yard projects, visit and care for each other when sick or injured, etc., etc.

The flip side of this is the chance your newer lover wouldn't get along with your wife, and spending time all in one house would be very uncomfortable.

So far, it sounds like you have been dabbling in poly in a way that you hope will "protect your marriage." Newly poly couples often seek triads or quads as a way to "share" the experience, and share the lovers, thinking this will reduce jealousy.

In fact, it can increase jealousy and weirdness (as you may have experienced in your disastrous quad attempt). There are too many moving parts, and degrees of desire or affection or interests can vary between the group so much, someone or 2 someones may feel left out. 3 really can be a crowd, and 4 can be a trainwreck.

Define what shape you want. Just some one night stands when you travel? A permanent gf/bf in another city, dealing with a LDR? Or looking closer to home for someone, for the deepest kind of connection?

You (and she) may be polysexual, polyromantic, demisexual, or fully polyamorous.

It sounds like your wife wants some sexual variety, but when she thinks of YOU sharing sex and feelings with someone else, she gets fearful of losing you, which might evidence as jealousy and stonewalling, and she shuts down.

If one is wired mono, one may fall for another (whether is is infatuation or something more deep) and fall out of love with the previous partner.

If one is really poly, the love and good feelings for the newer partner just makes one feel more in love with the other, and vice versa.

So, I think you could ask your wife to do couples counseling with a counselor who is versed in alternative relationships and sexual preferences. If she has a deep fear of losing you if you really pursue Open, this can be worked on in therapy.
 
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