Fear...ultimatums...what now?

[dwen]

My husband and I have been married for 4 years, together for 6. We have a five year old and a two year old. We’ve explored threesomes and dabbled a little in the swinging lifestyle. Neither of us have any issues with these types of explorations, aka we both feel satisfied afterwards sexually. However, I have recently came out to my husband that I would be interested in having or exploring the prospects of a poly relationship. For me it simply makes sense, I’ve always found myself drawn to numerous people at any time. I love learning about people, and being intimate with them. More than that, I am a very passionate person, and enjoy exploring life a deeper level than my husband. We’ve had numerous discussions about how we exist on different planes. That when I ask for everything I need from him, it overwhelms him. Based on our openness sexually, and on this very distinct difference in our personalities, it makes complete sense in my mind to have a poly relationship. However, he is not in agreement.

I’ve suggested he read and research and sent him many links, we even bought the book titled “Opening up: the guide to sustaining and maintaining open relationships.” None of which he’s read.

Now he is suggesting we separate because we can’t agree on what we want. I’m very troubled because I don’t want to raise our children separately. I’m also frustrated at the ultimatum: be a swinger, allow me to be involved in anything you do, or else I’m leaving. It feels very controlling. I’m a huge fan of compromise, and right now I feel backed into a corner, and I don’t like that feeling.

How do I cope with these feelings of anger? Anger isn’t something I typically feel, I’m usually able to recognize the other emotions involved. Right now, I’m quite mad. I can’t really compartmentalize my emotions in order to find clarity.

Has anyone experienced this, what did you do?

 

[Candiedlove]

That's an incredibly tough situation. But, bottom line, my partner refused to let his ex control who he slept with, in what manner, and what feelings he had. That was unacceptable to him.

It was hard. Divorce stinks. But do know that you can very well raise a family in separate households, if you and your partner are both committed to your children's well being. Children don't need their parents married, as much as they need to see them get along, have safe homes, and get plenty of love and support.

Oh, and I get the anger! Let yourself be angry, than let go of the anger. Trust me, it's for your own sake.

Eventually my partner and I considered ourselves lucky from getting away from a woman who liked to use people as objects. But that took years to get there...

 

[kdt26417]

Hi dwen,

I think your husband is flexing his muscles. He's demonstrating that he has the freedom to break up with you. That takes power away from you, and makes you feel helpless. And angry.

And he does have that freedom. Nobody can force him to stay in a marriage/relationship. But maybe he is abusing that freedom?

And if he doesn't want to read any of the poly materials you suggested, I guess he has that freedom too. I think this is another way he is flexing his muscles. He is proving to you that he doesn't have to read that stuff. Which takes power away from you, and makes you feel helpless. And angry.

So, there is a bit of a power struggle going on here, a struggle for control. Who steers the ship? He is using his personal freedoms to take command of the wheel.

Maybe he's doing the right thing for the wrong reason? If he absolutely refuses to accept poly, and never will accept it, maybe you would want to break up anyway? There must be someone out there who'd fit you better. Someone who'd accept poly.

Can you keep a low profile for awhile, and see if he'll calm down? What will you do?

With concern,
Kevin T.

 

[Inyourendo]

Id call his bluff.

 

[Savant]

On the surface--if you look at this more closely--what you're asking for isn't a 'poly relationship' more than you wanting to become poly him and accepting it. While that is fair if he is agreeable, you also need to consider that he isn't like you. While he enjoys the occasional 'swing', the reality is that poly just isn't something he is able to mentally process. I don't think it is fair to expect that just because he likes to swing that he should/would be willing to go poly. I also don't think it is wise to get emotionally caught up in ultimatums, since you yourself are likely approaching the point where you will be saying that if he doesn't accept you going poly that you will end the marriage.

Let's be honest here, for women there is no shortage of men willing to date a poly woman, but the reverse is certainly not true. He might be thinking about poly and recognizing that it would be difficult at best for him to find other partners. He may also be thinking that 'poly' is really the beginning of the end of your marriage. Or he may just not be 'wired' for poly. But the elephant in the room may very well be that he is worried about losing you to another man. You may not see that as something that could/would happen, but I'm certain that he has fears about that. How much have you talked about that aspect in particular? Lastly, he might be thinking that he went into this marriage making a commitment to you--and you to him--and now you want to back out on that.

The bottom line is that he knows this is a one-way street. Once he agrees to poly, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. When you start dating other men, it's highly unlikely you would ever entertain 'going back to the old ways' if he found that he couldn't cope with it. (Would you?) In other words, this is a decision that will alter his life (and his family life) in irreversible ways. You need to keep in mind the significance of that fact if you want to make it work.

So, can you make it work? Hard to say. What I would suggest you do is look more closely at mono/poly relationship threads on the forum here. Above all your husband is mono, and even if you do get agreement from him for you to go poly, I doubt he would pursue poly (himself) anytime soon. If he is potentially willing to end the marriage over this, then clearly poly is something he isn't all that comfortable with. That means *if* you can get him onside, you would need to manage your marriage in a mono/poly way--at least to start.

Another suggestion is to talk about 'what if'. Ask him to consider the scenario where he agrees to you going poly. The 'how it happened' isn't important at the moment. What you want to ask him is, what does he think it would mean for him going forward? What does he think would happen? Would he stay monogamous? Would he be exploring other relationships? Does he believe that he could attract another woman if he went down that road? Would he feel like you wouldn't spend much time with him anymore? Or would he just feel like a cuckold?

Get him to speculate on what he thinks the future would be if he said 'yes'. Once he does that, you can use that information to counter any flawed beliefs that he may have. He may not admit it, be he likely has a lot of fears about all of this. By playing, 'what if', you can explore the future without him actually committing to it in advance.

 

[Magdlyn]

My husband and I have been married for 4 years, together for 6. We have a five year old and a two year old. We’ve explored threesomes and dabbled a little in the swinging lifestyle. Neither of us have any issues with these types of explorations, aka we both feel satisfied afterwards sexually. However, I have recently came out to my husband that I would be interested in having or exploring the prospects of a poly relationship.

Apples and oranges. Just because you and your h have been polysexual, it does not lead to an easy transition to polyamory. Some people feel threatened by their partner being emotionally intimate with another, even though they are OK with them being physically intimate.

For me it simply makes sense, I’ve always found myself drawn to numerous people at any time. I love learning about people, and being intimate with them. More than that, I am a very passionate person, and enjoy exploring life a deeper level than my husband. We’ve had numerous discussions about how we exist on different planes. That when I ask for everything I need from him, it overwhelms him.

Here is the crux of the matter. Your h can't meet your emotional needs. And you would like a new partner who can meet your deeper more passionate emotional needs, as well as being a satisfying sex partner.

I feel perhaps since your h does not meet your emotional needs, you two have used the band-aid of polysexuality. But that is not what you really want or need. He senses that if you find a more passionate, emotionally open partner, he will lose you. Could he be correct?

Based on our openness sexually, and on this very distinct difference in our personalities, it makes complete sense in my mind to have a poly relationship. However, he is not in agreement.

I’ve suggested he read and research and sent him many links, we even bought the book titled “Opening up: the guide to sustaining and maintaining open relationships.” None of which he’s read.

My ex h would never read anything I wanted him to read, about raising kids, about the mental illness one of them suffered, about open relationships. Sometimes I would read things out loud to him, and that would work to an extent, but ultimately I would lose interest in catering to him this way.

Now he is suggesting we separate because we can’t agree on what we want. I’m very troubled because I don’t want to raise our children separately. I’m also frustrated at the ultimatum: be a swinger, allow me to be involved in anything you do, or else I’m leaving. It feels very controlling. I’m a huge fan of compromise, and right now I feel backed into a corner, and I don’t like that feeling.

How do I cope with these feelings of anger? Anger isn’t something I typically feel, I’m usually able to recognize the other emotions involved. Right now, I’m quite mad. I can’t really compartmentalize my emotions in order to find clarity.

Has anyone experienced this, what did you do?

Be angry, let it go through you. But try and learn what is under the anger. Is it fear of loss? Or feeling disrespected and being expected to do things his way or the highway? Perhaps you two are not really suited for the long haul. What then? He has a right to leave if you don't meet his expectations for what he thinks he wants in a marriage.

 

[TheWind]

Id call his bluff.

Bold but a good way to see what he has in his head. Maybe he is scared? He could be thinking that you want someone else period? Do you have someone in mind? I agree with you about him not being open to the idea of being poly. But swinging is more like the other person is a sex toy, something to spice up your sex life. Poly is about restructuring your life.
Have you done MFM? We did that and lately it has been more MFM with us. If the guys are friends, it is easier. My wife goes nuts with two of us on her. Our MF time is often around family responsibilities. But the MFM is like a special event. Same as when I see the woman I am after. Even though we don't have sex, it is erotic.
Are you also looking to bring a woman into your family? No guy can say no to two women. Well I do know a couple of prude guys. I wonder if you know what you are looking for with poly?

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you feel frustrated.

His willingness to participate in things belongs to him. Whether reasonable or not from your POV, it sounds like he's being pretty clear about what he is and is not willing to do:

• He's up for polysexual in the context of swinging.
• He is not up for being in a polyamorous network in any way. If you want to engage in polyamory, he prefers to step off the bus first.

So now he's waiting on you to clarify and tell him what you are and are not up for. To me it sounds like you could make a call and give him your answers. Move this conversation forward.

How do I cope with these feelings of anger?

What is it that you are angry about? That he prefers to disband rather than do polyamory against his willingness? Or are you more mad at HOW he let you know about his preferences? Or are you mad that he did not read things?

Is it something else?

Galagirl

 

[dwen]

Thanks for your comments:

1. Power Struggle
We are definitely struggling with a power struggle. Neither of us want to leave the other, yet we both want to have the other see our side. Which, I think I can see his side. He is scared, he is feeling a lot of emotions he hasn’t felt before, and he doesn’t have the emotional literacy to deal with them.

2. Mono/poly
I would agree that it is right to say that we more than likely have a mono/poly situation. I would say it is hard for him to fathom having more than one partner because he doesn’t have the capacity for it. If I even look at friendships, I have deeper friendships with multiple close friends than he has with his closest friend. And this is another point, he has no one to talk to about his emotions except for me. I’ve a few friends who I’ve opened up to who help me to work through my ideas, etc. I’ve suggested that we may be mono/poly and have read a few things online, and know that it can work with a lot of effort, compassion, and communication. I think he is competitive and struggles to see that we can want different things, not be “equal” (in terms of score keeping) and still be okay. We’ve discussed this. I would say that he is trying to rationalize this in his mind. He has presented discussions like splitting up but living in the basement (there is rental suite in the basement). That he wants to be my best friend even if we can’t be together. He is rationalizing everything around a monogamist framework. That it has to be together 1:1 or none. He has even expressed that he think I want to be single. Which once again comes from a monogamist framework. He is struggling to see how I can want both.

3. What if Questions
We have had some very great discussions about his fears and asking what if questions. He is afraid that I’ll find someone else. This very likely comes from the belief that he isn’t enough for me. I have tried my best to reassure him, that even though he is quite different from me I value him, who is he is etc. I’ve expressed that I’m not so quick to just give everything we have up, which is why I am trying to move in this direction honestly and open WITH him. I’ve expressed that even if I had another partner I would make sure to show him all the love he needs. That if he ever feels like I’m lost and caught up in NRE, he just has to identify his emotions and let me know, and we will WORK TOGETHER to support our relationship. I would say he is processing this, he is not okay with all of the fear and negative feelings he feels. He is definitely struggling with them. He has never really experienced personal struggle in his life, so he has few tools to support him through this. I try to support him in his recognition of his emotions as much as possible, but when there is an underlying power struggle between us, it can be challenging sometimes.

And in terms of what he would do if we went down this path. He is very unsure. He has been chatting with a few women, but hasn’t been honest with him about being married, etc. Which I find interesting. He is afraid of how they will react. Because it is going to be harder for him to find someone who is okay with a situation like this, than it will be for me. So, I guess I’m unsure what he would do, he obviously knows that I’m okay with whatever he does. I do urge him to be more honest though, to remember that there are other people on the end of his fears.

4. In terms of what I want. Honestly, I want to have my cake and eat it too. That’s the hard part right now. I don’t want to give up my current relationship. I don’t want to watch him from afar as he continues to grow as a parent, as a person. I want to continue to experience life with him. I want to share in our experiences. Yet, I want to have the freedom to grow as and individual as well, to learn from and experience other people at a level beyond acquaintance and friend. I don’t just want to be a swinger who uses people for sex and that’s all.


5. What I"m angry about: I'm sort of passed the anger point, but I was angry about how he didn't acknowledge his emotions, how he lost control and threw a tantrum (thats how I see it) rather than just talking to me.

Sorry for the extremely long post.

 

[LizziE]

From what you've just written, there is one thing that jumps out to me that I think it really important. You've probably not going to be able to show him all the love he needs. You can definitely give him reassurances, and talk him through things, but unless he's truly ready to get on this bandwagon and work on reassuring HIMSELF, then it won't work.

The main reason I point this out is because there have been a number of posts from people both from a viewpoint like the one your husband probably has now, as well as from people who are in your position expressing on they just don't feel that they have enough assurance (from your husband's POV)/they don't know how else to reassure their partner that they're not going to leave them for a new person (from your POV). That's something that he really needs to work on.

I think it's an important thing to point out now, because if you make a promise of that type that you really can't keep, it will probably bite you in the butt later.

It does sound like you're making great progress on talking things through. I hope it continues to go well and that the two of you find a happy medium place that suits both of you well.

 

[dwen]

You're right LizzE, part of this he has to work on himself. I can't make promises like that. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[cobra80]

One of the things that helped me so much was: I was never in control if my wife stayed with me before she asked to be with other prople and im still not in control of it. But I know she still wants and needs to be with me and what is even better is knowing that it is her decision to stay and love me. The one problem is we all want to control and make sure our main partner will always be there. When you realize it is not in your control you can began to realize just how much she does love me. We work daily on our realtionship and she is even helping me with my exploration.

It seems he is afraid to loose you. So he throws out the im in control if i stay or you stay. Which as stated is a power struggle. When and only when he can except that you will always be there with him thats when it will work. Been there done that the site morethantwo.com helped me tremendously. This is also new to me and my wife. And we struggled for a good while and finally realized we could not provide each other with everything we both needed that is not humanly possible. We have actually grown stronger as a couple and there is more freedom of talking to each other. So good luck and try to keep the communication open between the two of you.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thanks for clarifying what you were angry about. Glad you have moved past that place but I get why it would be bothersome. I would not enjoy adults having tantrums.

To me it sounds like he might have core belief stuff that he could think about if he is thinking about staying. But if he's definite that he wants no part of polyamory if you go there? I think its best for both to accept that is where his willingness is. He doesn't have to be up for everything you are.

He could express that preference without tantrum though.

Galagirl

 

[Savant]

Neither of us want to leave the other, yet we both want to have the other see our side. Which, I think I can see his side.

Can you though? Stop for a moment and consider this... Let's say he has a total about face, and you both move forward as poly. Ignore what you might feel is implausible for a moment, and just consider the following at face value. Within a week he's dating another woman, and he's gushing to you about how much he has in common with her. He goes out with her often, and starts having sleep-overs at her place. Then comes his declaration that he has fallen in love with her. He assures you that he still wants to stay in the marriage, and doesn't get 'cold' to you. One day you come home and you can hear him on the phone talking to her. (which is OK of course) He doesn't hear you and you kind of 'step softly' so he doesn't hear you come in. You listen as he talks about how much he loves her and how much she has enriched his life.

Are you still OK with all this? Are you worry-free about it all? Or are you now beginning to see 'his side' of it? With respect, it's easy for a person on the poly side of a mono/poly relationship to say they 'understand' the concerns of the mono partner, when there is no 'threat' of losing the partner to one of their other poly partners. If they are mono, there is no jealousy on the side of the poly person. There is no one to be jealous about.

As men, we grow up learning to suppress our emotions. The 'be a man' axiom has been drilled into the heads of males for centuries. I'm not surprised he is unable to cope with this emotionally, since most men never really open up that side of themselves.

I would say that he is trying to rationalize this in his mind. He has presented discussions like splitting up but living in the basement (there is rental suite in the basement). That he wants to be my best friend even if we can’t be together. He is rationalizing everything around a monogamist framework.

I think another part of this, that you haven't mentioned yet, is how this will affect your kids. If he wants to stay in the house, he likely wants to be there for the kids as much as you. Remember, you would be the one dating other men. If you break up and he moves out, in comes (to his perspective) another 'daddy'. He not only loses you, but he may fear losing his kids too.

His level of reluctance to poly is not something I see changing anytime soon. You may need to accept that it could take years before he is 'ready' to go down that road, if at all. Are you willing to wait that long and take that chance?

We have had some very great discussions about his fears and asking what if questions. He is afraid that I’ll find someone else. This very likely comes from the belief that he isn’t enough for me.

Although I don't know him, I'm willing to speculate that he is probably a very 'logical' minded person, would you agree? However, his belief that he isn't enough for you is true. You yourself have said there was something missing in your life.

However, in your discussions, you're still talking about things from a perspective of that they COULD happen. Talk to him about things from a DID happen perspective.

He's afraid you will find someone else because you *want* to find someone else. The difference is that you want to make this person an additional partner and not a replacement partner. So do the what if, and ask questions that go PAST his reluctance.

For example, ask him to pretend that he has agreed to you becoming poly. Why don't you take the next step and try to discuss what kind of 'terms' he would accept. Reiterate that it is all pretend. Would he want a condition that the man not be brought into your home? What about a limit that this new partner is not allowed to see your kids? Would he want a limit on the number of nights per week you could go on dates? Would he want a limit on the extent of physical or sexual activity? There are all kinds of poly frameworks, some are more liberal than others. Perhaps you could discuss poly limits that he would be comfortable with. While he may find himself unable to even consider it, try to get him to pretend. Perhaps you can establish some limits that may help to assuage many of his concerns.

Remember, he knows nothing about the kinds of negotiation that can take place in a poly relationship. Why not discuss some of the things that you are willing to compromise on. Perhaps something simple like that you won't bring the other partner to the house without his prior approval. As you can imagine, being forced to look at your new partner may be 'too much' for him. So you can see if this would help him deal with that. Or maybe he wants the opposite. Maybe he would want to meet the other partner before you start dating. Try to see if you can get him to talk about what he would be comfortable with, and what he wouldn't be able to handle. Maybe you can work with that.

And in terms of what he would do if we went down this path. He is very unsure. He has been chatting with a few women, but hasn’t been honest with him about being married, etc. Which I find interesting. He is afraid of how they will react. Because it is going to be harder for him to find someone who is okay with a situation like this, than it will be for me.

Exactly. To be fair, most women will react badly if a man says he is married and looking to date. Unless they are seasoned poly veterans, they will almost always assume the guy is lying and is cheating on his wife.

You need to consider that you may need to be involved in his quest to find another partner. At the very least you will likely need to meet women to assure them that you are OK with it all. Heck, if you were shrewd, you might try to fix him up with someone. Let's be honest here... The fastest way to get him to understand poly would be for him to become poly. If you were able to get him involved with another woman, he would understand your point of view on how he can be in two relationships at once.

But let's be honest here... A woman can say she is married and very few men will object. The reverse is rarely true. This is something you will have to deal with to overcome his objections. If he goes down this road, it will be demoralizing and depressing if he is rejected by every woman he meets because he is married and they are not interested in that--while at the same time you don't have any problems at all.

Honestly, I want to have my cake and eat it too. That’s the hard part right now. I don’t want to give up my current relationship. I don’t want to watch him from afar as he continues to grow as a parent, as a person. I want to continue to experience life with him. I want to share in our experiences. Yet, I want to have the freedom to grow as and individual as well, to learn from and experience other people at a level beyond acquaintance and friend.

Do you ever find yourself feeling that you married too young? I ask since your desire is something that many people 'get out of their system' before they marry.

What I think you need to start considering is what you plan to do if he is unwilling to cross the poly line. What then? With all due respect, if I can be blunt, when you said 'I do', it was to a monogamous relationship. You made that promise to him, as he did to you, 'till death do you part'. Now, years later, you want to take back that promise and change it something else. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, and I'm not suggesting it is a betrayal or anything like that. At this point it is only talk. There is nothing wrong with that. But you did agree to the marriage. He wants to keep the promise that you both made when you got married. I don't think it is fair to put the weight of his poly reluctance on his shoulders. From his perspective, he never signed up for this. It's not about an ultimatum, it's about him wanting to keep the status quo. If you're unwilling (or unable) to do that, then your marriage is in trouble.

Your other option may be a trial separation. Perhaps if you and your husband 'took a break', while you went off and explored other men, maybe you will be able to determine what you want more--should you be forced to choose between poly and your marriage.