Feeling stuck guys

[willowstar]

I was strictly thinking about the pros and cons of you practicing poly but I think you're talking about now the marriage as a whole correct? Is that a useful exercise to generate 2 pro and con lists or are the lists are reflection or mirror/ opposite image of each other?

Yes, the link I found asked participants to take a relationship inventory, and part of that is to make Pro/con lists for staying as well as going. Each partner does this on their own, and then we are to compare after if we like. Or it can just be a way for us to each assess whether there are more on one side or the other.

I have been in various poly configurations and relationships over the past 23 years. I am pretty clear on being poly and what the pros and cons are for me... Is that what you meant?

This kind of goes back to the question I asked a few days ago if after you lifted the sex embargo and he said he really wasn't interested in having sex with you ever again ....the vase was finally broken. You either didn't understand the question or saw it as him finding a partner to take the load off as primary. Sorry I didn't have time to address our disconnect on that then. But at the heart of that question is any sexual relationship with your husband of value to you. And second part of that is what happens once it's completely lost. More than a few forum members have told me how at some point the damage / reality was too great.

I mean if he thinks he's MR sexual prowess and good lover and you think he's pathetic, loser in bed and you need to seek sexual connecting outside rendering him a functional cuckold.....either he doesn't get that or he is the pathetic loser lover ...Mr dud instead of Mr stud and he'll settle for anything.

I dont think he sees himself this way, and I know I certainly dont. We dont always mesh sexually, energy wise. His "style" is different form mine. That is one thing I learned with my prior relationship, and it has stuck with me. But I do think he worries that I am seeking something outside because he is not giving me what I need. Which is technically true, but it is not something he CAN give me.

Yes, I can say that I do value a sexual relationship with him. but what I envision as my ideal is different from what he wants. He has a real need for more than I do.

Hope your therapy session went well.

Thank you, I think it was a good start. As usual, I felt it was a good talk, we were able to give our therapist a sense of where we are now and what we hope to explore in terms of staying or splitting. And as usual, he needs time to process it all before he can talk with me more about it, and he feels "shredded" again. I wish I could understand what that means for him (aside from the obvious, that he is hurt and vulnerable.)

 

[willowstar]

Sorry for the individual posts to each person, I dont know how to do the "multiquote" thing... But it also makes things clearer, to reply to what each person has said...

I see another possible reality.

If I am with a partner who struggles to deal with me poly, and I see they really don't thrive in a polyship? And this isn't like a few weeks or months but YEARS? I could kindly and gently break up with them and set them free. I don't have to wait for them to do it. *I* could just do it.

Because *I* am not happy in a relationship where my partner has never ending suffering. Easier to get through the break up suffering and they are then free to hopefully find someone more compatible to be with so their suffering can END.

Rather than be with me with no end of suffering in sight. That's not kind.

Galagirl, this resonated strongly with me, thank you for reminding me. You are so right, it hurts to know that he suffers. That the things that make me fundamentally who I am are painful to him. Not because he does not agree, or truly wants me to be different, but because he just doesnt know HOW.

He hurts in his own way, and I hurt because I cannot freely be myself. I would like very much for us to both NOT be suffering...

People have to cope with Life things all the time – some asked for, some not. That's reality too. Why does it bother you that people have to adjust to things in their Lives?

Again, I guess I dont want people to suffer because of me. I know that we all make choices, and people around us will need to adjust. But I dont like being the person who hands someone a Big Change that they didnt want or expect. And it is one of the things that he says in the heat of an argument, that I jsut want what I want regardless of how it affects other people. Perhaps I am afraid that is true.

• Selfish = memememe! All about me and my needs! Screw you and your needs. I'm not helping you!
  
• Selfless = themthemthem! All about them! I screw myself by neglecting my own needs. I am not helping myself!

Then there's “self full” – the more balanced place in the middle. Where you meet your own needs first, so you are not burning out or run down and can run from a full gas tank. Then you can gift your help to others in helping to meet their reasonable and rational needs.

Why do you struggle to take care of you?


Is it because you are afraid to come out? You don't have to.

Or afraid to go through a divorce and face Life on your own? Well... you already have to face Life now.

Thing is, life is not a dress rehearsal. You only get the one. Hopefully therapy can help you become more decisive about how you want to be living it.

Galagirl

Yes, I suppose I am afraid to come out. My friends all know about me and so it is really just my family. We have had some other pretty major emotional issues the last couple years to navigate with them and I would really prefer to not have to deal with them. I am already very much a "black sheep", the rebel child, the one who never takes the easy road. I can already feel the rolling of the eyes if I came out with this right now...

If I had to I would. It is really just negative anticipatory anxiety I suppose...

 

[GalaGirl]

I know that we all make choices, and people around us will need to adjust. But I dont like being the person who hands someone a Big Change that they didnt want or expect.

Hon, it's been YEARS. It would hardly be unexpected to him.

And it is one of the things that he says in the heat of an argument, that I jsut want what I want regardless of how it affects other people. Perhaps I am afraid that is true.

Neither here nor there, because it plays the other way too. He wants what he wants (no changes!) regardless of how it affects other people (you shrinking yourself and being unhappy.) So don't get caught up in the "blame game" thing.

Instead focus on solving this:

He hurts in his own way, and I hurt because I cannot freely be myself. I would like very much for us to both NOT be suffering.

Could put the health of the people ahead of the relationship shape. If the marriage shape needs to disband so you guys can try a new shape (perhaps exes and friends), and stop hurting long term? Maybe its worth the price of admission -- some break up pain in the short term so that both of you can feel better in time.

Yes, I suppose I am afraid to come out. My friends all know about me and so it is really just my family. We have had some other pretty major emotional issues the last couple years to navigate with them and I would really prefer to not have to deal with them. I am already very much a "black sheep", the rebel child, the one who never takes the easy road. I can already feel the rolling of the eyes if I came out with this right now...

Well, you do not have to come out to you family at this point in time. You could just divorce and if they ask nosy questions, you could choose to honor your preference and simply not deal with them.

• Learn to say "Thank you for your concern, but you don't need to worry yourself for my sake."
• If they keep pushing it a firmer "This topic is not up for discussion. Stop pushing. If you keep pushing I will walk out of the room."
• If they keep on pushing, say "Not up for this" and walk out of the room. If they try minimize their poor manners with stuff like "You are too sensitive!" simply AGREE rather than get sucked into circle conversation. "That's right. I just got divorced. I am sensitive" and walk out of the room.

Keep it easier on yourself. No JADE -- you do not have to justify, argue, defend, or explain your life choices to people.

But it sounds like if you DID come out to the family later on, they wouldn't be much surprised because you have always marched to the beat of your own drum and been "the rebel." And you are out to friends, so you have a friend support network already in place to support you if you do come out to family.

So the family roll their eyes if/when you come out. What would happen that you are worried you not able to handle? Is there a specific thing you are worried about?

To me you sound like you have gotten into a habit of "shrinking yourself" a lot. You are letting your anxiety related "what if this? What if that?" stuff cloud your view.

It's OK to take up the space you do in this world. It is OK to change your mind, change things around in your life that no longer suit you.

That is you doing things for you and your needs and your well being. That isn't you doing things TO other people out of maliciousness. You could give yourself a break and stop trying to be responsible for everyone and everything in the world.

If you set that big load down? People can carry their mini loads they want to carry away. The rest can be left behind, and you can travel much lighter.

Galagirl

 

[dingedheart]

Yes, the link I found asked participants to take a relationship inventory, and part of that is to make Pro/con lists for staying as well as going. Each partner does this on their own, and then we are to compare after if we like. Or it can just be a way for us to each assess whether there are more on one side or the other.

I have been in various poly configurations and relationships over the past 23 years. I am pretty clear on being poly and what the pros and cons are for me... Is that what you meant?

Originally the topic of the pro con list was mentioned as a tool you suggested to him to use to cope. I'm assuming after the break up with the BF there was a long mourning period or depression not feeling a need to date. It's only lately now ( fill in the blank months ) that the poly tension has reared its head the sex embargo was put in place. So the crux of my question was when the idea to start up again was floated and he wasn't dealing well what's his pro con inventory look like on this lifestyle....not the marriage per se....but I think these was so linked that they actually are one in the same. I wasn't thinking 2 list staying and leaving ....I was thinking poly and mono that separate peice for that particular time and then now as you try to move forward.

I dont think he sees himself this way, and I know I certainly dont. We dont always mesh sexually, energy wise. His "style" is different form mine. That is one thing I learned with my prior relationship, and it has stuck with me. But I do think he worries that I am seeking something outside because he is not giving me what I need. Which is technically true, but it is not something he CAN give me.

He doesn't see himself what way ??? as good and competent lover ......or as a pathetic loser ??

In many stories/ personal histories on the forum in which the married couple have a mismatch in sex drive which drives people to poly to as you say to take the pressure off. It sounds like in your case you have 2 separate things going on. The poly identity thing.....and a sexual disconnect. And in this case they aren't complementing each other....they're fighting with each other.

So to recap for clarity. If you were to lift the sex embargo and say how about a little something something and he said no thank you never again it just feels icky. That loss might not feel good. However if he said under the same situation no thanks never again because I have a new gf you'd be happy for both of you. You're free to get that need filled outside and he wouldn't be sad frustrated and depressed. Good day.

You're also saying the you're relationship with your BF has changed your view about of your sexual relationship with your husband....that experiment tainted or illuminated faults with hubby ....is that correct?

You say you think he worries about you seeking sex outside because of what he's not giving you. You think worry is the right word? And being technically true might be all that matters. Here again I wonder if he hears or gets what you tell him. Example ....sex feels icky with you ....you can't provide what in need or want.

When we first started this lifestyle change my life moved along the way it had with the exception of my wife dating....I was coaching our kids sports along owning my own business so days were /still are quite busy ....one could argue too busy.
Several weeks in I notice change ....I notice the intrusion...the constant checking messages or emails....I noticed the less affection and the decrease in sex.....so I voice those concerns. Basically I was told it was in my head...jealousy or negative emotions trying to find something to bite on...BUT the solution...the fix was going to be our standing date night. (I think that was ripped out of the poly manual.). Ok sounds fine ....just one more thing to schedule.
The problem was her heart wasn't into this. It looked good on paper ...it's was the manual suggests it just wasn't honest. It was just to placate or what people here say " fake it till you make it". After several of these lack luster dates and the less than exciting sex afterwards I flat out told her I really don't like feeling like an obligation ....I rather not havie sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me( unless of course it's a really hot celebrity that I've admired for yrs ....thats really the only exception) And similar to what you said I didn't want to be here stunt penis after she got done sexting or whatever with her BF...jump in bed all horny. Again in my mind not genuine. Some guys wouldnt care or actually welcome that. I didn't.

My point is knowing the hard truth matters. Decisons and perceptions are base on information. Shading things and playing semantic games to protect feelings or egos leads to horrible communication disconnects.

Thank you, I think it was a good start. As usual, I felt it was a good talk, we were able to give our therapist a sense of where we are now and what we hope to explore in terms of staying or splitting. And as usual, he needs time to process it all before he can talk with me more about it, and he feels "shredded" again. I wish I could understand what that means for him (aside from the obvious, that he is hurt and vulnerable.)

Good starts are great.

Shredded .....I think it goes beyond hurt and vulnerable ...like his soul is being ripped out of his body. Everything that was is slipping away.

 

[willowstar]

Hon, it's been YEARS. It would hardly be unexpected to him.



Neither here nor there, because it plays the other way too. He wants what he wants (no changes!) regardless of how it affects other people (you shrinking yourself and being unhappy.) So don't get caught up in the "blame game" thing.

Yes you are right on both counts. I think we both know where it is going (separate) but we are holding on to hope that we can find a way not to. But yes, he has not made the changes, and I think it shows that he just cant (because perhaps he is really mono and struggling with all of this) or just doesnt want to (give me what I want when he isnt getting what he wants).

Instead focus on solving this:



Could put the health of the people ahead of the relationship shape. If the marriage shape needs to disband so you guys can try a new shape (perhaps exes and friends), and stop hurting long term? Maybe its worth the price of admission -- some break up pain in the short term so that both of you can feel better in time.

.....


Keep it easier on yourself. No JADE -- you do not have to justify, argue, defend, or explain your life choices to people.

I like this. JADE. I do this. I should get more comfortable with not doing this, and just allowing myself to have my side.

So the family roll their eyes if/when you come out. What would happen that you are worried you not able to handle? Is there a specific thing you are worried about?

Just mother stuff. Mother is judgemental, and quick to say if she does not agree with us or thinks we made a bad choice. Confrontational. So makes it hard to share things that are big or have emotional content for fear (mine) that she will turn it around.

To me you sound like you have gotten into a habit of "shrinking yourself" a lot. You are letting your anxiety related "what if this? What if that?" stuff cloud your view.

It's OK to take up the space you do in this world. It is OK to change your mind, change things around in your life that no longer suit you.

Yes. I forget that. Thank you for reminding me.

That is you doing things for you and your needs and your well being. That isn't you doing things TO other people out of maliciousness. You could give yourself a break and stop trying to be responsible for everyone and everything in the world.

If you set that big load down? People can carry their mini loads they want to carry away. The rest can be left behind, and you can travel much lighter.

Galagirl

This is a big one I think. I have always been the one to take responsibility, even when it should be shared. As I get older I learn to spread it around more. Let people do their own thing and not always rescue. But that is a hard one. I am definitely a rescuer... Have to get more practice letting others share the load, and showing them that they can.

 

[GalaGirl]

Just mother stuff. Mother is judgemental, and quick to say if she does not agree with us or thinks we made a bad choice. Confrontational. So makes it hard to share things that are big or have emotional content for fear (mine) that she will turn it around.

Well, if she behaves that way around people? The natural consequence is that people share less with her because she's not a safe person to share with.

My Dad is like that. So I just don't share. Result? We aren't especially tight. But I provide him with no ammo to use against me and ding me with.

Then he complains we aren't tight. Well, I don't care to be tight with a person who is judgemental, complains, wants to tell me how to live my life, etc.
When he changes his way of going, I will reconsider. But I'm not going to hold my breath and I'm not going to leave myself open to dings either. That would not be me taking care of ME first.

I am definitely a rescuer... Have to get more practice letting others share the load, and showing them that they can.

Actually you don't have to show them anything. All you have to do is to stop carrying the load. If they care about it, they will take personal responsibility and pick it up. If they don't? They won't.

In the case above with my Dad. He cannot expect me to give him ammo so he can turn around and ding me with it and do the "That's stupid. You should do this, you should do that" just so he can feel like a big important bossy boots. That's not us being close. That's me giving ammo to ding me with!

So I lay that "job" of providing him with ammo down. I won't do it.

If he wants to be close in a healthy way? It's on him to change his behaviors and figure out how listen without judging. It's on him to figure out how to feel big and important in other ways that DON'T ding his people. Like feeling proud of something he did or created, rather than feeling big by pushing others down.

That baggage is for him to carry and learn, IF he wants to change his way of going. Not my job to teach it to him. I am not obligated to.

Galagirl

 

[willowstar]

Originally the topic of the pro con list was mentioned as a tool you suggested to him to use to cope.

Ahh ok. I was thinking you were referring to the exercises we were doing for relationship inventory. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I dont think I asked him to do that. Not sure if he did a pro con thing for poly. I think he knows how he feels, and he knows what I do. But he does not know where to go from there.

I'm assuming after the break up with the BF there was a long mourning period or depression not feeling a need to date.

Yes about 15 months.

It's only lately now ( fill in the blank months ) that the poly tension has reared its head the sex embargo was put in place. So the crux of my question was when the idea to start up again was floated and he wasn't dealing well what's his pro con inventory look like on this lifestyle....not the marriage per se....but I think these was so linked that they actually are one in the same. I wasn't thinking 2 list staying and leaving ....I was thinking poly and mono that separate peice for that particular time and then now as you try to move forward.

Good points. I know that when he and I have had "theoretical" conversations, we are very good at being able to discuss these things. We were always able to say, "Oh I think this would work well for me, and this is how things make sense to me." But when it comes to real life, poly is much harder to DO...

Also, just to clarify, there is no "sex embargo". It just doesnt happen very often. Like, maybe once every 4-6 weeks? I am not "holding out", just choosing to only engage when I feel inclined.

He doesn't see himself what way ??? as good and competent lover ......or as a pathetic loser ??

I dont think he thinks of himself as Mr sexual prowess OR pathetic loser. He is neither. When I am in the mood for what he has to offer, it is wonderful. It is just not my preference.

In many stories/ personal histories on the forum in which the married couple have a mismatch in sex drive which drives people to poly to as you say to take the pressure off. It sounds like in your case you have 2 separate things going on. The poly identity thing.....and a sexual disconnect. And in this case they aren't complementing each other....they're fighting with each other.

For us the drive to poly is not about the sexual mismatch. I was poly long before he came into the picture. Yes, it is definitely two different things happening at the same time.

So to recap for clarity. If you were to lift the sex embargo and say how about a little something something and he said no thank you never again it just feels icky. That loss might not feel good. However if he said under the same situation no thanks never again because I have a new gf you'd be happy for both of you. You're free to get that need filled outside and he wouldn't be sad frustrated and depressed. Good day.

Well I think any ending would feel icky, but certainly easier to let him go if I knew he had another to go to...

You're also saying the you're relationship with your BF has changed your view about of your sexual relationship with your husband....that experiment tainted or illuminated faults with hubby ....is that correct?

Yes. Very true. I mean, I knew that what Bear and I had together was nice but not fulfilling for me. BF and I were much more compatible. And BF had a different approach, more attentive to consent and always checking in with me that it was okay with me, okay to go further, etc. It really helped me think about ALL of my interactions and how I could have better boundaries around sex and touch. Bear is now learning more about how to stop and ask to make sure I am open to touch or sex before just "making a pass". This feels better to me.

You say you think he worries about you seeking sex outside because of what he's not giving you. You think worry is the right word? And being technically true might be all that matters. Here again I wonder if he hears or gets what you tell him. Example ....sex feels icky with you ....you can't provide what in need or want.

It bothers him because he feels as though my being with others "takes away" from sex I could be sharing with him. Kind of like, "OH she wants to have sex X times per month, and if she has this many sessions with someone else, then I am not getting those sessions."

OR, she is willing to have sexy time with these other people but not me. Which is completely understandable.

When we first started this lifestyle change my life moved along the way it had with the exception of my wife dating....I was coaching our kids sports along owning my own business so days were /still are quite busy ....one could argue too busy.
Several weeks in I notice change ....I notice the intrusion...the constant checking messages or emails....I noticed the less affection and the decrease in sex.....so I voice those concerns. Basically I was told it was in my head...jealousy or negative emotions trying to find something to bite on...BUT the solution...the fix was going to be our standing date night. (I think that was ripped out of the poly manual.). Ok sounds fine ....just one more thing to schedule.
The problem was her heart wasn't into this. It looked good on paper ...it's was the manual suggests it just wasn't honest. It was just to placate or what people here say " fake it till you make it". After several of these lack luster dates and the less than exciting sex afterwards I flat out told her I really don't like feeling like an obligation ....I rather not havie sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me( unless of course it's a really hot celebrity that I've admired for yrs ....thats really the only exception) And similar to what you said I didn't want to be here stunt penis after she got done sexting or whatever with her BF...jump in bed all horny. Again in my mind not genuine. Some guys wouldnt care or actually welcome that. I didn't.

Yes sounds like that sucked a lot. I know I was guilty of doing all of that, which was very sucky for him. I know that some people say to take your sexual energy that you build elsewhere and bring that home to your partner, but that never felt right to me. I want the energy to come from my partner and I. No stunt doubles here.

My point is knowing the hard truth matters. Decisons and perceptions are base on information. Shading things and playing semantic games to protect feelings or egos leads to horrible communication disconnects.



Good starts are great.

Shredded .....I think it goes beyond hurt and vulnerable ...like his soul is being ripped out of his body. Everything that was is slipping away.

Yes, that makes sense. He would definitely say that.

 

[willowstar]

Well, if she behaves that way around people? The natural consequence is that people share less with her because she's not a safe person to share with.

My Dad is like that. So I just don't share. Result? We aren't especially tight. But I provide him with no ammo to use against me and ding me with.

Then he complains we aren't tight. Well, I don't care to be tight with a person who is judgemental, complains, wants to tell me how to live my life, etc.
When he changes his way of going, I will reconsider. But I'm not going to hold my breath and I'm not going to leave myself open to dings either. That would not be me taking care of ME first.

Yes this is my Mom. We were in an argument about one of my kids and our parenting decisions (which she is definitely NOT on board with), and she tried to bait me. Tried to get me to admit to something I wasnt ready to discuss with her. (She accused me of having an LGBT "agenda", and I could have come out to her as bisexual right then and there, just to get it over with.). I chose not to go there. I was NOT giving her any ammo to use against me, and in the context of the discussion I think she would have. And, it didnt matter anyway, it is not the reason we were making the parenting decisions we were, to accept and love our kid no matter what...

In the case above with my Dad. He cannot expect me to give him ammo so he can turn around and ding me with it and do the "That's stupid. You should do this, you should do that" just so he can feel like a big important bossy boots. That's not us being close. That's me giving ammo to ding me with!

So I lay that "job" of providing him with ammo down. I won't do it.

If he wants to be close in a healthy way? It's on him to change his behaviors and figure out how listen without judging. It's on him to figure out how to feel big and important in other ways that DON'T ding his people. Like feeling proud of something he did or created, rather than feeling big by pushing others down.

That baggage is for him to carry and learn, IF he wants to change his way of going. Not my job to teach it to him. I am not obligated to.

Galagirl

Makes total sense. I know this works better in the long run. My parents do not need to know what happens in my bedroom. I never came out to them as bi or poly because there was never a reason to. If I was in a long term relationship and decided to make that person part of my family or include them in family gatherinfs, then yes I would do it. (BF was a friend of the family already, my parents and sisters knew him, so it wasnt weird for him to be around.) But until then, it is all nebulous and has no meaning to my family. They are mono heteronormative Catholics who dont think too far outside the box.

 

[dingedheart]

Also just clarify, there is no " sex embargo". It just doesn't happen very often. Like, maybe once every 4-6 weeks. I am not " holding out ", just choosing to engage when I feel inclined

Thank you for clarifying. This is where I got the idea of the embargo and sex being icky with him. This thread post #8

We are coparenting, living together, talk about the day to day stuff, and nothing else. No sex, very little physical contact because that feels icky to me right now. I have told him that it is unfair for him to expect me to meet his physical needs without making the effort to meet mine, which are more emotional and intellectual. (Example: offer me a massage of my neck because he knows my neck ALWAYS hurts me. Dont expect to get sex in return. Offer just because you know I need it and you love me and want me to feel good.) But I have NO libido or interest in sex right now.

You're also saying the you're relationship with your BF has changed your view about of your sexual relationship with your husband....that experiment tainted or illuminated faults with hubby ....is that correct?

Yes. Very true. I mean, I knew that what Bear and I had together was nice but not fulfilling for me. BF and I were much more compatible. And BF had a different approach, more attentive to consent and always checking in with me that it was okay with me, okay to go further, etc. It really helped me think about ALL of my interactions and how I could have better boundaries around sex and touch. Bear is now learning more about how to stop and ask to make sure I am open to touch or sex before just "making a pass". This feels better to me.

You say you think he worries about you seeking sex outside because of what he's not giving you. You think worry is the right word? And being technically true might be all that matters. Here again I wonder if he hears or gets what you tell him. Example ....sex feels icky with you ....you can't provide what he needs or wants.

It bothers him because he feels as though my being with others "takes away" from sex I could be sharing with him. Kind of like, "OH she wants to have sex X times per month, and if she has this many sessions with someone else, then I am not getting those sessions."

OR, she is willing to have sexy time with these other people but not me. Which is completely understandable.

So what you're saying is he knows that you think sex with him was ok ...However not fulfilling. And as a consequence / technically better/ more fulfilling sex outside the marriage. And that didn't effect his sexual ego or self esteem but the issue he has is zero sum game volume ??? Wow not what I was thinking at all. Then worried is the right word. And from what you written it's a legitimate worry. You did cut him off last time and you're choosing not to engage right now...and the shared energy thing discussed below.

When we first started this lifestyle change my life moved along the way it had with the exception of my wife dating....I was coaching our kids sports along owning my own business so days were /still are quite busy ....one could argue too busy.
Several weeks in I notice change ....I notice the intrusion...the constant checking messages or emails....I noticed the less affection and the decrease in sex.....so I voice those concerns. Basically I was told it was in my head...jealousy or negative emotions trying to find something to bite on...BUT the solution...the fix was going to be our standing date night. (I think that was ripped out of the poly manual.). Ok sounds fine ....just one more thing to schedule.
The problem was her heart wasn't into this. It looked good on paper ...it's was the manual suggests it just wasn't honest. It was just to placate or what people here say " fake it till you make it". After several of these lack luster dates and the less than exciting sex afterwards I flat out told her I really don't like feeling like an obligation ....I rather not havie sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me( unless of course it's a really hot celebrity that I've admired for yrs ....thats really the only exception) And similar to what you said I didn't want to be here stunt penis after she got done sexting or whatever with her BF...jump in bed all horny. Again in my mind not genuine. Some guys wouldnt care or actually welcome that. I didn't

Yes sounds like that sucked a lot. I know I was guilty of doing all of that, which was very sucky for him. I know that some people say to take your sexual energy that you build elsewhere and bring that home to your partner, but that never felt right to me. I want the energy to come from my partner and I. No stunt doubles here.

Yeah ....I'm not sure sucks ...or sucky is how I'd characterize it but ok.

I'm confused You say you were guilty of all of that ...which was sucky for him ....at the same time you're super frustrated and threatening divorce if he doesn't jump on board and smiling as leave the door on a date. Is that realistic? That doesn't really change my opinion I still think everyone here is settling. And life too short to settle.

And if I getting this right you and I are outlayers on the spillover effect ....that your husband would be fine with being stunt penis....knowing you just got done sexting BF jump in to bed all horny. ....he'd be fine with obligation dates and obligation sex.? I think in 90 % poly situations he might not be having such a problem. Wow ...thats bad luck too.

 

[willowstar]

So what you're saying is he knows that you think sex with him was ok ...However not fulfilling. And as a consequence / technically better/ more fulfilling sex outside the marriage. And that didn't effect his sexual ego or self esteem but the issue he has is zero sum game volume ??? Wow not what I was thinking at all. Then worried is the right word. And from what you written it's a legitimate worry. You did cut him off last time and you're choosing not to engage right now...and the shared energy thing discussed below.

What I have said to him is that every partner is different, and brings different things to the table. He has a certain style of what making love looks like, as everyone does. It is not bad or good, it is just him. He knows that I sometimes crave something different. And sometimes things that he is not really into. So, best for me to look for those things elsewhere when I can.

If course it affects his sexual ego, Im sure it would for anyone to have their partner come to them and say "Hey you dont seem to be able to willing to do this for me, so I think I'd like to find someone who can."

We have tried making it work. He has tried doing the things I would prefer, he is not into it. And my preference is for my partner to not be "doing me a favor" in bed. If he isnt into it, I dont want him to be doing it. Its a turn off for me.
In all other ways sex can be very enjoyable, many orgasms, etc. That is not our problem...

You say I "cut him off" the last time (I presume you are talking about when I was with BF and I had to pull back from him due to his excessive sexual demands..) No, I pulled back from a situation that made me feel as though I was being used sexually and that was not okay with me. We worked that out at the time and reconnected.

I'm confused You say you were guilty of all of that ...which was sucky for him ....at the same time you're super frustrated and threatening divorce if he doesn't jump on board and smiling as leave the door on a date. Is that realistic? That doesn't really change my opinion I still think everyone here is settling. And life too short to settle.

I am frustrated and "contemplating" (NOT threatening) divorce because we have been trying to resolve issues that have been present since day one. (He has also brought up divorcing because things are not good for him either. Not just me.) He knew I was poly before we got married. He knew this would come up one day. I think he was sitting around waiting for it to happen, THEN he would deal with it. Well, now it has been 4 years since the dealbreaker person came back into my life, and he has STILL not been able to make the adjustment. So at this point, I feel like it is just a mismatch that we cannot "counsel" ourselves out of. I cant make him poly. He is poly friendly, and has no issues with it philosophically. But as we all know, doing it in real life feels very different than theoretical discussions.

I have been very patient with him. Listened to him for hours, held him while he cried for hours at a time. At some point we have to decide that what is happening is harmful to the people involved. We just cant continue to do this. I agree, it is settling, for both of us.

And if I getting this right you and I are outlayers on the spillover effect ....that your husband would be fine with being stunt penis....knowing you just got done sexting BF jump in to bed all horny. ....he'd be fine with obligation dates and obligation sex.? I think in 90 % poly situations he might not be having such a problem. Wow ...thats bad luck too.

He is okay with me coming home and sexing him up because to him that is "reconnecting" after I have been out on a date. He is NOT okay with obligation dates and sex. And I am definitely not. He wants to be wanted, like everyone else. I just have issues with using sex as the pacifier to tell him that everything is okay. This feels like I have to "make up for" being out, that I have to "prove" to him that I am still his wife and his lover. I am not up for jumping through those hoops. I think that is bullshit.

 

[dingedheart]

What I have said to him is that every partner is different, and brings different things to the table. He has a certain style of what making love looks like, as everyone does. It is not bad or good, it is just him. He knows that I sometimes crave something different. And sometimes things that he is not really into. So, best for me to look for those things elsewhere when I can.

If course it affects his sexual ego, Im sure it would for anyone to have their partner come to them and say "Hey you dont seem to be able to willing to do this for me, so I think I'd like to find someone who can."

We have tried making it work. He has tried doing the things I would prefer, he is not into it. And my preference is for my partner to not be "doing me a favor" in bed. If he isnt into it, I dont want him to be doing it. Its a turn off for me.
In all other ways sex can be very enjoyable, many orgasms, etc. That is not our problem...

I get it now ....the light bulb just went on. This whole time I was thinking all the run of the mill DR Ruth type sexual dysfunction stuff....or a big fat guy who's too out of shape to have vigorous sex. But that's not it ....He's a boring " vanilla " lover .....you're talking about BDSM / kink stuff...correct.

So your very diplomatic sex summary " just " different didn't really help much....in terms of his sexual self esteem. I think most people hearing that know from experience that there are clear winners and losers that it's not just " different " it's more of a bell shaped curve. And the curve allows for the wiggle room in that statement because the middle of the curve it could be " just " different. If I recount some or all of my women I had relationships with ...vs just sex partners I remember the real stand out winners and the stand out losers.

You say I "cut him off" the last time (I presume you are talking about when I was with BF and I had to pull back from him due to his excessive sexual demands..) No, I pulled back from a situation that made me feel as though I was being used sexually and that was not okay with me. We worked that out at the time and reconnected.

Yes ....that time.

Is there huge difference in cutting him off and " pulling back" because of excessive demands.

I didn't say you were wrong to cut him off or you didn't have reasons for cutting him off ....it just happened.

Are the semantic that important? " there is no embargo....offically/ technically / in writing ...right..just in practice or reality.

The greater point is/ was his fear of losing what little sex life he has now or had back a yr ago legitimate. I take it from you response you don't see that as being grounded. I don't see it being wildly out of line considering what you've admitted to in terms of contributing to his poly hell and patterns that already exist in your marriage.

I am frustrated and "contemplating" (NOT threatening) divorce because we have been trying to resolve issues that have been present since day one. (He has also brought up divorcing because things are not good for him either. Not just me.) He knew I was poly before we got married. He knew this would come up one day. I think he was sitting around waiting for it to happen, THEN he would deal with it. Well, now it has been 4 years since the dealbreaker person came back into my life, and he has STILL not been able to make the adjustment. So at this point, I feel like it is just a mismatch that we cannot "counsel" ourselves out of. I cant make him poly. He is poly friendly, and has no issues with it philosophically. But as we all know, doing it in real life feels very different than theoretical discussions.

Yup .....not threatening.....contemplating ...got it....and under the circumstance
I'm sure it's came up on both ends. I think that's more than normal. Pushed to the extremes that's going to pop out. However the number of times it mentioned and the manner it which its used make a difference in terms of threatening.


[QOUTE]
I have been very patient with him. Listened to him for hours, held him while he cried for hours at a time. At some point we have to decide that what is happening is harmful to the people involved. We just cant continue to do this. I agree, it is settling, for both of us.
[/QUOTE]

Think of the hrs spent in discussions/ arguments, comforting/ maintence /whatever to keep this marriage on the road. Wouldn't you like those hrs back ? Do something productive or fun.

He is okay with me coming home and sexing him up because to him that is "reconnecting" after I have been out on a date. He is NOT okay with obligation dates and sex. And I am definitely not. He wants to be wanted, like everyone else. I just have issues with using sex as the pacifier to tell him that everything is okay. This feels like I have to "make up for" being out, that I have to "prove" to him that I am still his wife and his lover. I am not up for jumping through those hoops. I think that is bullshit.

The whole sloppy seconds thing and the crying .....Have we every talked to him directly about the hot wife cuck thing.....does he want to know details ??? Maybe that just needs to be embraced ...maybe he's just embarrassed to admit it to you right now.


So said another way ....." the cost " of having sex with your husband is too great even if it got you what you wanted ...... because that ends up being a transaction and you feel like a hooker. What about negotiating something less ....like hand jobs ??? You go on a date you owe him a hand job...rain check style.

I'm just thinking gender reversal on this for a second ...I betting if wives said the same thing to their poly husband I'm betting most guys would say ..." to keep my marriage / family together all I need to do is have sex with you in correlation to the dates I go on ??? ...... DONE. Past the milk "

 

[FallenAngelina]

Oh, good grief, it comes down to this:
Willowstar, do you enjoy living with your husband or not? You've collected enough data over the years and now you're looking to make a decision. Do enjoy everyday life with this man? Right now, today - not "if only" "if we could" "if he would" "if I did" but today, this week, right now. Are you enjoying your life and home with this person?

 

[Magdlyn]

I get it now-- the light bulb just went on. This whole time I was thinking all the run of the mill, Dr Ruth type sexual dysfunction stuff, or a big fat guy who's too out of shape to have vigorous sex. But that's not it. He's a boring "vanilla" lover? You're talking about BDSM/kink stuff, correct?

So your very diplomatic sex summary: "Just different," didn't really help much, in terms of his sexual self esteem. I think most people hearing that know from experience that there are clear winners and losers, that it's not "just different," it's more of a bell shaped curve. And the curve allows for wiggle room in that statement, because the middle of the curve could be "just different." If I recount some or all of the women I had relationships with, vs just sex partners, I remember the real stand-out winners and the stand-out losers.

Is there huge difference between cutting him off, and "pulling back" because of excessive demands?

I didn't say you were wrong to cut him off, or that you didn't have reasons for cutting him off. It just happened.

Are the semantics that important? "There is no embargo officially/technically/in writing." Right. Just in practice or reality.

The greater point is/was his fear of losing what little sex life he has now or had back a year ago, legitimately. I take it from your response you don't see that as being grounded. I don't see it being wildly out of line considering what you've admitted to, in terms of contributing to his poly hell, and patterns that already exist in your marriage.

Yup, not threatening. Contemplating. Got it. And under the circumstances
I'm sure it's come up on both ends. I think that's more than normal. Pushed to extremes, that's going to pop out. However, the number of times it was mentioned, and the manner it which it was used, made a difference in whether it was perceived as threatening.

Think of the hours spent in discussions, arguments, comforting, maintenance, whatever, to keep this marriage on the road... Wouldn't you like to have those hours back, to instead have done something productive or fun?

The whole sloppy seconds thing, and the crying... Have you ever talked to him directly about the hot wife/cuckold thing? Does he want to know details? Maybe that just needs to be embraced. Maybe he's just embarrassed to admit it to you right now.

So, said another way, "the cost" of having sex with your husband is too great, even if it got you what you wanted, because that ends up being a transaction, and you feel like a hooker. What about negotiating something less, like hand jobs? You go on a date, you owe him a hand job, rain check style.

I'm just thinking gender reversal on this for a second. I'm betting if wives said the same thing to their poly husband, most guys would say: "To keep my marriage and family together, all I need to do is have sex with you in correlation to the dates I go on? DONE. Pass the milk."

There is a difference between coming home from a date with your OSO, and wanting to have sex with your spouse, and doing it because of an obligation. Between doing it out of love and desire for the spouse, and doing it because he is stupid jealous and pissed at you, and feeling competitive with the OSO. For example: some people need a breather of several hours, or even a day, to rest or switch gears, between being sexual with 2 lovers. So if they are obliged to have sex with both men in a few hour period, they may feel used, like an object, or like a bone being fought over by 2 dogs.

In short, I think you're attempting to placate your mono husband whenever you see someone else. But doing that makes you feel dirty and angry. After all this time, it's looking like a mismatch. Cut your losses and move on. It will be kinder to BOTH of you in the long run.

 

[dingedheart]

There is a difference between coming home from a date with your OSO, and wanting to have sex with your spouse, and doing it because of an obligation. Between doing it out of love and desire for the spouse, and doing it because he is stupid jealous and pissed at you, and feeling competitive with the OSO. For example: some people need a breather of several hours, or even a day, to rest or switch gears, between being sexual with 2 lovers. So if they are obliged to have sex with both men in a few hour period, they may feel used, like an object, or like a bone being fought over by 2 dogs.

In short, I think you're attempting to placate your mono husband whenever you see someone else. But doing that makes you feel dirty and angry. After all this time, it's looking like a mismatch. Cut your losses and move on. It will be kinder to BOTH of you in the long run.

Yes I know there's a difference .....we sort of covered that in previous posts ....believe me I get that.

I was merely suggesting that the genders might view this differently if roles were reversed. Speaking from the " horny guys" perspective for a second.
If we take all the motives and psychological stuff out it for a second and look at as a negotiation ... As willowstar said a hoop...the horny guy might think ...I can get what I want AND keep my life intact ...and all I have to do is have sex with my loving wife. Something willowstar referred as nice/ ok ...has orgasms ...meaning not an activity that's hated or dreaded. That's the trade. Lots of poly guys are going to say I'm in. Guys learn this trade off from an early age. You have to mow the lawn before you can play with your friends.

Rule number one in poly relationships is communication. And rule 2 is negotiation. Everything is up for negotiation you know ...boundaries.
So Negotiate....forget one to one sex ....or forget PIV for PIV I'm only willing to give hand jobs. " Some people need a breather " ...fine rain check or let him be the fluffier for a little pre- date fun or whatever.

Also why not use all the same mental tools and techniques ....the rationalization , compartmentalization, behavior mod stuff ....( the same stuff you ask the mono spouse ) to do get over feeling dirty and angry ? You know just deal. As in emotional management.


It's kind of like poly hell its sucky.....does dirty and angry = demotion, displacement, and intrusion??? I don't know

But I do agree with you I think this dog needs to be put down. Everyone is settling.

 

[Magdlyn]

Dinged, I always appreciate your posts; you have an interesting perspective on things, as a man who has been through poly hell. I just go nuts with all your ellipses, as you may recall. I can't help but correct your grammar to better understand your PIV!

Yes, I know there's a difference. We sort of covered that in previous posts. Believe me, I get that.

I was merely suggesting that the genders might view this differently if roles were reversed. Speaking from the "horny guy's" perspective for a second:
If we take all the motives and psychological stuff out of it, and look at it as a negotiation, as willowstar said, a hoop, the horny guy might think: "I can get what I want AND keep my life intact, and all I have to do is have sex with my loving wife." Something willowstar referred as nice/ok. She has orgasms; meaning it's not an activity that's hated or dreaded. That's the trade-off. Lots of poly guys are going to say, "I'm in." Guys learn this trade-off from an early age. You have to mow the lawn before you can play with your friends.

So fucking your wife (so you can fuck your gf) is akin to a boring chore like mowing the lawn? I am not loving your analogy, since it still seems wife- (or husband) fucking (since willowstar is talking about fucking her husband) is still a requirement or duty to get to the really fun part, fucking her bf! Yuck!

Just so willow knows, I have been a hinge in a V many times. I've been with my live-in gf for over 7 years, and I have had a couple serious bfs as well as several long lasting FWB relationships with men and one other woman. I do not require a break in between fucking an OSO, and fucking my anchor partner, my gf. So if I come home from a date with a bf, or he is here and we fuck, or he spends the night and gf knows I am off fucking him and can overhear us, I do make sure to fuck her asap, if she so desires. Not out of duty or guilt or manipulation, but out of desire and love for her, and caring for her needs. And I find it a complete pleasure to do so. Others may need a break, as I said above, which can make it more tricky.

Also, she and I have a good solid relationship, with good communication skills, not a long history of emotional distance causing a lack of intimacy and infrequent sex in general.

Rule number one in poly relationships is communication. And rule 2 is negotiation. Everything is up for negotiation, you know. Boundaries.
So, negotiate. Forget one on one sex, or forget PIV. "I'm only willing to give hand jobs."

"Some people need a breather." Fine. Rain check. Or let him be the fluffier for a little pre-date fun [with the bf] or whatever!

It seems her husband isn't willing to take rain checks. And willow may or may not want some "pre-date fluffing." I think there is too much water under the bridge to negotiate this kind of stuff without someone feeling like they are just going through the motions to do their duty. Pity sex, in other words.

Also, why not use all the same mental tools and techniques? The rationalization, compartmentalization, behavior mod stuff, the same stuff you ask the mono spouse to do, to get over feeling dirty and angry? You know the deal.

No, I do not know the deal. Not getting you here. Can you be more specific?

It's kind of like: poly hell, it's sucky. Does dirty and angry=demotion, displacement, and intrusion? I don't know.

In this case, it appears one does equal the other. After 20 years, it's still not settled! willow is afraid to claim her space, she wants to "make everyone feel good, not hurt anyone." She won't let people carry their own baggage.

But I do agree with you, I think this dog needs to be put down. Everyone is settling.

Yep.

 

[willowstar]

There is a difference between coming home from a date with your OSO, and wanting to have sex with your spouse, and doing it because of an obligation. Between doing it out of love and desire for the spouse, and doing it because he is stupid jealous and pissed at you, and feeling competitive with the OSO. For example: some people need a breather of several hours, or even a day, to rest or switch gears, between being sexual with 2 lovers. So if they are obliged to have sex with both men in a few hour period, they may feel used, like an object, or like a bone being fought over by 2 dogs.

In short, I think you're attempting to placate your mono husband whenever you see someone else. But doing that makes you feel dirty and angry. After all this time, it's looking like a mismatch. Cut your losses and move on. It will be kinder to BOTH of you in the long run.

This is it exactly. I am not interested in "negotiating" for sexual favors. I like what Galagirl says about "sex share". That is what I envision a good sexual experience to be. Not fulfilling the needs of a partner as the main reason for the encounter, although that is a valid and real part of the interaction. My sexual experiences are not a commodity to be traded for being allowed to do things. This is yucky, at best. Others may feel differently, and I have no judgement for those who make this work in the relationship. It is just not for me.

For me, when I have one partner, my libido is less. When I have more than one partner, I am energized and excited and my libido is higher. For both (or all) partners. He could definitely benefit from that. But emotionally it is just too hard for him to let me freely be with others. He will always see the glass as half empty, knowing that I am "getting" something he is not.

I dont even have an issue with needing a breather all the time. There were many times when I was with both the same day (Not together). Enjoyably and consensually. So, while I do sometimes need some space to come back home and deal with kids and bills and real life, it is not always the case.

Thank you everyone for all of the feedback.

 

[dingedheart]

Thanks mags for your help. Always appreciated


I think maybe because of my grammar you missed a very important peice of the gender reversal story. The lawn mowing wasn't an analogy it was an example of learning trade offs. And in this case the analogy for Mr horny poly husband would be eat your desert then you can play with your friends. The point is it's not work or pain or drudgery. It's and activity relished and enjoyed.


And from a clear logic point of view I don't see much difference in asking for the similar emotional management from a request from the other side. (IE the horny husband who joyously eats his desert) must learn to channel said joy properly and on the off chance he feels dirty and angry he needs to deal with that too. As does the wife who negotiated such a deal might feel pathetic and more insecure.

Believe me I don't think this is a great idea .....I'd a thought the guys sexual ego and self esteem took a big enough hit. To me this type of deal has disaster written all over it. The only sex he's going to end up getting is the required sex.if it doesn't happen immediately it won't be long he'll be bitching that her heart isn't into it ( because it's not ) and the deal goes sideways.

However what's at stake and what are we actually talking about in terms of " required sex ". Once a week once every other week. Is that worth blowing up everything. Think how many mono spouses just swallow it to keep the marriage together. They do their little grow things, they read the poly books and articles that Kev links , they see therapists and they force themselves to swallow the con list. A generic short con list might look like this: RISKS ( health, pregnancy, social , professional), the poly hell headers ( demotion, displacement and intrusion). Division of resources (time/ attention, money) the acceptance of becoming a fraction or decimal, 1/2, 1/3 , 1/4, lastly the honor and privilege to be the emotional tampon when things break bad.

I've talked with plenty of these people most of them forum members and they never seem enthusiastic, never truly happy, but they eat those costs for the bigger picture.


From the other side this might look like a very small cost if it had a shot in hell of working.


Here's something else to throw on the pile. A dear friend sent me this link in regards to a issue she's having with present BF. As I read it I kept coming back to this thread. You decide if it relevant.


http://www.elephantjournal.com/2016...-love-him-you-cant-teach-him-to-love-himself/


Good luck willow

Ps ...mags I edited the other post.

 

[GalaGirl]

I feel as though we have come to a natural point in our relationship where we perhaps should just part ways, and accept that we have just been trying to work around our incompatibilities for most of our time together.

I think we both know where it is going (separate) but we are holding on to hope that we can find a way not to.

Bear has also had a very hard time with my being poly. Not the intellectual "you are poly" identity, but the real life issue of how to not feel crushed, abandoned, and unwanted when I spend time with another partner. He acknowledges this, and we have (again) spent many many hours discussing this. He does not know how to get through it, and I do not know how to help him. I have grown resentful of the need to help him at all. After all it has been over 20 years. I feel I have given him plenty of time to figure out how to work this out, and as much as I want to help and be supportive, I am burnt out.

He hurts in his own way, and I hurt because I cannot freely be myself. I would like very much for us to both NOT be suffering.

If things dont work out for us to stay together, this is exactly what I would like to have. The ability to still share space and joy and family, and to celebrate where we are both going in life.

I don't know if this resource helps you any. It has worksheets at the end. Maybe you could talk them over with your counselor.

http://www.uptoparents.org/files/english/documents/finishingthegrievingutpparents.pdf

I think you guys are grieving that this has to end. Maybe the paralysis/stuck is part of being in the "numb and denial" stage. Some of the "trying to make it work still" sounds like "bargaining" stage to me. You have also already been in the angry stage. Where you are/were mad that he hasn't made the changes on his side he said he was going to, and you doubt his ability to change, and are tired of propping him up in that area by shrinking yourself.

Just that neither one has hit final acceptance stage yet. Neither wants to be the first one to go to the courthouse and file. So instead of moving it forward, you both keep it in the stuck and end up prolonging the suffering. I don't think suffering is a good place in which to linger.

I think you could look at the worksheets. Especially this question:

Would it be helpful for you, either by yourself or with some counseling, to attempt to move to another stage?

If you can move on to "final acceptance" stage and become willing and able to at least go file the papers at the courthouse? Then you have set the process in motion. They will contact you on the court date and things you need when in the process. You will no longer be "stuck." It will be "moving." Could get through the process, as peacefully and quickly as possible. Then linger in the healing place on the other side. The suffering will have an end point.

Rather than lingering in the breaking up place that drags on and on with no relief in sight. You both sound miserable doing that.

I have always been the one to take responsibility, even when it should be shared. As I get older I learn to spread it around more. Let people do their own thing and not always rescue.

Could take personal responsibility and go file at the courthouse. Stop "rescuing" him from a divorce if basically that's what needs to be happening so that you BOTH be free of suffering. Stop "rescuing" yourself from having to be the one to file.

You kept waiting on him to do something. Then you seem to acknowledge that actually, you don't have to be waiting. YOU could be doing something.

I can imagine where you might feel tired of "always being the fixer" or "always being the responsible one." But you taking one last marital responsibility in filing for the divorce so it can disband doesn't sound like a horrible thing to me. Once it has disbanded you can be free to move forward in your life and not be stuck any more.

I encourage you to talk to your counselor about moving toward final acceptance so you can eventually take some action. Please don't keep lingering in this "neither here nor there" place. It sounds draining.

If you ultimately want to build a new relationship together as "good exes and friends" that function like extended relatives for family gatherings and whatnot? Could focus on getting on to the healing place so you have that good foundation to build the new model from.

You cannot build it from a foundation of "dying on the vine marriage." Clear up old business before starting new business.

Galagirl

 

[newtoday]

Dinged, I always appreciate your posts; you have an interesting perspective on things, as a man who has been through poly hell. I just go nuts with all your ellipses, as you may recall. I can't help but correct your grammar to better understand your PIV!.

If we're correcting grammar.... I think you made a little (perhaps Freudian?) slip as well, Mags. . PIV or POV?

I don't know that DH wants his PIV discussed here or understood..... but his POV touches some very valid points!

Not hating, just being a little facetious and playful.

Carry on. I'm enjoying this immensely.

Are we voting? Put the poor old dog down. Reincarnation / a new life might be wonderful for everyone!

 

[FallenAngelina]

I think I am really struggling with leaving a marriage for something that *feels* very selfish.... wanting more partners, more love, more sexual connection... This decision will inflict pain and force people around me to make adjustment that none of them asked for. I really really hate that.

Wllowstar, if I were your therapist, I'd have you focus on turning this piece around so that you sit squarely and securely in what you want for your life. All of the machinations around what other people are feeling/thinking/doing don't really go anywhere unless they have the solid ground of your own convictions. Claiming agency over your life in a deep, unapologetic and joyful way is the absolute best gift that you can give your loved ones because the more that you are the author of your own story, the more you have to offer them. It's not about how your life looks, who lives where, who is sexing it up with whom, it's about who you are. Your children, yourself and your husband will get so much more from a woman who embraces her entirety than they ever did from one who was accommodating, apologizing and shrinking herself every day for the debatable sake of others. Our loved ones benefit so much more when we find the courage to be as big as we truly are.

Work on not hating, but embracing this one piece of the puzzle and I guarantee you that many of the other issues will fade. You have enormous power to change the tone in your relationships and in your family but it all starts with you and the story that you are telling yourself about your life. Write your own story and let yourself be seen!