Finally had the hard talk

[agentb2016]

Well, I just had the talk with my guy....

(For the backstory see my previous thread...."A difficult situation...new to poly")

It came out in a weird way. He had asked me to do a favour months ago which I agreed to (back before he pulled some shit that was hurtful to me).... he asked again today if I could do the favour, and then he got upset when my replies were "noncommittal."

I told him if I seem like I'm being noncommittal, it's because our whole relationship lately has become noncommittal and I've been uncertain of where it's going, and that I've been trying to talk to him about it.

Anytime I bring up poly and state that it's about communication, honesty, trust, and respect, he says things like....

"You're being legislative....I'm not sure if I want to negotiate"
"This is always what happens (in my other monogamous relationships....)"

What?

I told him it's not fair to assume I'm like every other monogamous girlfriend he's had, and that all I've done is tell him how things have made me feel, asked him what he wants, and shared some of what I've learned.

I've encouraged him to go learn more about polyamory, read, and talk to people, and figure out what it is for HIM, and not just take my word for it. I've told him we're both new to it so there's probably things we'd both need to learn and it would take time.

But it seems like even when I try to have a reasonable conversation with him, he either
a) Assumes that I'm trying to "trap" him into some kind of monogamous relationship
b) Says I'm trying to force rules on him and "legislate"
(I have never once set a "rule" ... I've told him that it's quite common to have "rules" in poly relationships but that they have to be agreed upon by everyone and that it's not one sided. Never once have I told him what he can or can't do, I've just told him I would like to figure out if we're on the same page as far as poly. I have communicated with him about things he's done recently that I found hurtful, and expressed that I think he needs to learn more about poly.)


He thinks we're on different pages (probably true) but seems to think we're on different pages because my requests for trust, honesty, respect, communication, and openness to learning about poly are completely unreasonable requests to him....

Am I crazy? For wanting a committed relationship? For learning more about poly by reading and talking to people on here? For wanting something based on communication, honesty, respect and trust? For maybe wanting to figure out "rules" for our relationship so we can both be happy (tho I never set them without his consent)?
This guy seems to make me feel like all my requests are completely unreasonable, and that I'm some mega bitch who wants to rule with an iron fist for asking for and wanting to talk about these things. Or that I have some secret agenda to force him into a monogamous relationship.

But so many people have told me to break up with this guy so maybe this is just it. I think we're done, even tho I've been holding on and wishing things didn't have to go this way. I can't help but feel he's being completely unreasonable.

 

[Bluebird]

Sounds like he's gaslighting you. Time to move on.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Am I crazy? For wanting a committed relationship? For learning more about poly by reading and talking to people on here? For wanting something based on communication, honesty, respect and trust? For maybe wanting to figure out "rules" for our relationship so we can both be happy (tho I never set them without his consent)?
This guy seems to make me feel like all my requests are completely unreasonable, and that I'm some mega bitch who wants to rule with an iron fist for asking for and wanting to talk about these things. Or that I have some secret agenda to force him into a monogamous relationship.

You're not crazy, but you do have a story going about how you see yourself and this partner is just being a cooperative component in your story. If you were totally at ease about wanting a committed (poly or otherwise) relationship, you would not be involved with him. You simply would have no interest whatsoever in him or in this back and forth with him. It's not "crazy" of you to be unstable, but it's important that you understand that you're not as sure footed as you'd like to be. You're including a lot of insecurity and second guessing of yourself when you approach him, so your "energy" isn't merely neutral, it's very mixed. You see this reflected in how he responds to you and in how you imagine that he makes you feel ("mega bitch" "iron fist" "secret agenda," etc.) This man (or anyone) cannot make you feel anything that you don't feel about yourself. I know that can sound trite, but it's the way relationships work. The way to change your experience with partners is to change how you feel about yourself, not to keep asking the partner to change or see things your way. People always reflect the image we have of ourselves and the stories we have going about ourselves.

The fruit of all of this is not in blaming him or breaking up with him in anger, but in understanding that every person in your life is an indicator of the vibe you have going, and especially a reflection of your view of yourself. You may or may not stay with him, but the fruit here is knowing that it's not helpful to focus on other people's perceived shortcomings but to focus on getting square with yourself about what you want. Challenging relationships can help us clarify what we want, but then you have to do the work of fully embracing what you want, free from a lot of the worry, fear and insecurity that you (and many of us) are holding onto right now. The more you can proudly "own" wanting a committed relationship, the more you'll find yourself with partners who are ready and happily able to offer this to you, no adjustments, explanations or negotiations necessary.

 

[agentb2016]

Bluebird - I didn't know what gas lighting was, so I just looked it up and read some articles on it. I'm not 100% sure if that's what's happening here but some of the patterns and things explained about it certainly seemed familiar.

If you were totally at ease about wanting a committed (poly or otherwise) relationship, you would not be involved with him. You simply would have no interest whatsoever in him or in this back and forth with him. It's not "crazy" of you to be unstable, but it's important that you understand that you're not as sure footed as you'd like to be. You're including a lot of insecurity and second guessing of yourself when you approach him, so your "energy" isn't merely neutral, it's very mixed.

You're right, I'm definitely not feeling sure footed right now - however I'll say that it sure as hell didn't start out this way. When I met him in the fall I was in a place of very high self esteem, doing what I needed to do, taking care of myself and feeling great. For the first many months he largely gave me the impression that he was interested in some sort of committed relationship (and even said that's what he wanted 1.5 months ago, only to change his tune shortly after). I was happy to go along with the uncertainty at first because I thought it was normal to not be fully committed for the first few months of a relationship, and I didn't want to "force" anything before it was time.

However, my self esteem has gradually eroded and I've experienced depression and uncertainty the past 1.5 months since I realized he didn't want something committed - and yes, perhaps there is a lesson there. Instead of standing my ground and saying "you don't want something committed? okay, I'm out" I have been trying to figure things out with him, talk with him and see if we're on the same page.

I'm now very doubtful that he actually wants a poly relationship (even though he's the one who brought up thinking he was poly in the first place). He DOES seem to just want 100% freedom with no boundaries, and doesn't want to be burdened by "talks" or worrying about what my needs or feelings are. He wants to be free to do whatever he wants, whenever he feels like it.

I just wish he had been able to say that to me up front, but it's only through his actions that I now see this.

He just sent me a text this morning, "I'm sorry that it isn't working with us. I'm not going to change the way that i am. I am who and what I am. Your interpretation of this and what ought I do has no influence on me."

(By "what I ought to do" I assume he means the fact I told him I think he should read and learn more about poly and what it is, but as his text states I don't think he will.)

 

[agentb2016]

I am curious if anyone here has ever been able to do an ongoing poly relationship with no defined rules or boundaries for the people involved?

And I mean literally no rules, including ones that govern safe sex and when to use a condom or not.

Because that's what this guy wants, to sleep with me and others when he feels like it, without a condom.

To have me around for fun and dates and helping him out like a girlfriend would, but without calling me a girlfriend or giving me any sort of indication of what he wants with me in the long run.

 

[Phy]

It does not have to be a rule to have common humand sense, don't you think? If we would have an open structure I would not talk about that much, just because it is just natural to look out for your and your partners health.

 

[Leetah]

Lots of people have friends that they have sex with and help out as friends do. With or without any level of commitment, you have control over what kind of help you offer as well as what conditions you need to have sex and with how much risk. If you and another person agree on these things they can accept your help or have sex together. If the two of you do not agrree then you don't. Neither of you have the right to demand that the other do it anyway.

Leetah

 

[agentb2016]

Phy - do you think he is using common sense?

Because he slept with another girl without a condom, then slept with me without a condom before being up front about not using a condom with her.

I don't think he's looking out for my health, or his own sexual health.

And yes, it should be common sense to look out for each others' health.... But he isn't.

 

[Phy]

No, I don't. That was more about you asking for relationships without rules. You do not need a rule about basic principles preserving your health. It should not be needed and you should not have to be insecure about it. IF you know your relationship is open, the use of condoms should be a matter of course.

 

[agentb2016]

Lots of people have friends that they have sex with and help out as friends do. With or without any level of commitment, you have control over what kind of help you offer as well as what conditions you need to have sex and with how much risk. If you and another person agree on these things they can accept your help or have sex together. If the two of you do not agrree then you don't. Neither of you have the right to demand that the other do it anyway.

Leetah - yep, I've had friends with benefits arrangements before, but we always used protection and we were up front about what we both wanted, so we were able to do it and still be friends. As long as I know what's going on then at least I can decide if I'm okay with it or not.

This guy, however, was always very "datey" and wanting me to do "girlfriend" like things with him, and led me to believe he wanted a relationship. It was a surprise to me to find out that he just thought of me as a friend about 1.5 months ago - it didn't line up with his behaviour. And when I asked him what he wanted, he gave me confusing replies and never said he wanted a "friends with benefits" type arrangement. He also wanted to have sex with me with no condom and sex with others with no condom, which I'm not okay with. And, he got upset with me last night when I wasn't jumping enthusiastically at the chance to do a favor for him, something I was not obligated to do. In the end I told him I would still do it but couldn't this week, but he got all pissy and just said "forget it."

 

[agentb2016]

No, I don't. That was more about you asking for relationships without rules. You do not need a rule about basic principles preserving your health. It should not be needed and you should not have to be insecure about it. IF you know your relationship is open, the use of condoms should be a matter of course.

Yes, I agree. But he hasn't even extended me that basic respect, and when I ask him to do that he feels like it's a "rule."

 

[IndieSolo]

DTMFA

(Dump the motherfucker already)

 

[GalaGirl]

he asked again today if I could do the favour, and then he got upset when my replies were "noncommittal."

Stop with the noncommittal. Just go for a flat out "NO, not doing you any favors. Seek elsewhere."

He can deal with his own upset. Shoo!

Anytime I bring up poly and state that it's about communication, honesty, trust, and respect, he says things like....

"You're being legislative....I'm not sure if I want to negotiate"
"This is always what happens (in my other monogamous relationships....)"

He does not want to negotiate. BELIEVE him when he says that. In so many different ways. Then hit the road and don't look back because you and him do not have compatible wants.

I told him it's not fair to assume I'm like every other monogamous girlfriend he's had, and that all I've done is tell him how things have made me feel, asked him what he wants, and shared some of what I've learned.

Stop "defending" your position. He doesn't care to understand or negotiate so it's just waste of you breath. Instead you could AGREE with him if it makes him shoo faster. Like...

"Yep. You are right. I am too much like your mono ex GFs. You are better off without me."

You know in your heart what is really true. So say whatever to get rid of him fast and hang up.

He thinks we're on different pages (probably true) but seems to think we're on different pages because my requests for trust, honesty, respect, communication, and openness to learning about poly are completely unreasonable requests to him....

What part of "That is completely unreasonable requests to me" do you not understand when he says it?

You wanting fair treatment IS unreasonable request to him. He is a selfish man and wants a one-way relationship that benefits only him.

You want 2 way street. So not compatible. Dump him.

It's not your job to "make him see the light" -- that's his job. I suspect he always blames the GF rather than examining his own behaviors leading to demise of relationship. But his becoming more aware isn't your problem. It is his.

Am I crazy? For wanting a committed relationship? For learning more about poly by reading and talking to people on here? For wanting something based on communication, honesty, respect and trust?

You are allowed to want what you want. I think it is fair to want a "two-way street" in your relationships. I want same in mine.

Where you are sounding a bit crazy to me? Is wanting to have it HERE with Mr Irresponsible and Selfish despite all the problems you have been describing.

He has BEEN TELLING YOU all along he is not up for "two way street" in many ways. He basically wants relationships where HE always gets HIS way.

This guy seems to make me feel like all my requests are completely unreasonable, and that I'm some mega bitch who wants to rule with an iron fist for asking for and wanting to talk about these things. Or that I have some secret agenda to force him into a monogamous relationship.

So what stops you from dumping him because your requests won't be met here by him?

I think we're done, even tho I've been holding on and wishing things didn't have to go this way. I can't help but feel he's being completely unreasonable.

He IS unreasonable. Yes, be done.

Get away from him. No talking, no favors. NO sex at all. Nothing.

Just be done with him full stop and move on.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi agentb2016,

It's possible that your guy wants relationship anarchy, but if he does it's not practical because he's so irresponsible. I don't think you are crazy by any means, you have put up with more than enough from him.

I know you don't want to break up with him, but I still think you should really consider it.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[Perrey]

agentb2016,

From my perspective, it looks like you are trying to find that last thread to hold on too. That last little bit of something that says, I mean something to him. I am important to him.

We can't give you that. Just like we can't make you decide to leave him. It's your decision. And its a tough decision.

What ever you do, do it for you. Not him. Because in the end, you're the one that's going to have to deal with the consequences and ramifications of your time with this man. You. Not us, and certainly not him.

What I can say is this, you deserve happiness. You deserve better. Its up to you to accept and understand that.

P.

 

[agentb2016]

From my perspective, it looks like you are trying to find that last thread to hold on too. That last little bit of something that says, I mean something to him. I am important to him.

Yes, I wish I meant something to him. I wish I was important to him. Regardless of the pain he's caused me, I still feel like I care deeply for him. I don't think he cares as much for me. He said it in his message this morning: "I'm sorry that it isn't working with us. I'm not going to change the way that i am. I am who and what I am. Your interpretation of this and what ought I do has no influence on me."

We can't give you that. Just like we can't make you decide to leave him. It's your decision. And its a tough decision.

What ever you do, do it for you. Not him. Because in the end, you're the one that's going to have to deal with the consequences and ramifications of your time with this man. You. Not us, and certainly not him.

Based on my conversation last night, I feel like it's already done. We're already broken up. I feel like I've been a coward. I feel like I was holding on. But I think both him and I recognize now that this is not working. And he is certainly not willing to consider me right now. What more is there to be said? I wish it wasn't so, but it is. I've tried to talk to him, I've tried to find common ground with him. He wants none of it. He says "take me or leave me, I'm not changing who I am." I am just hurting myself trying to reason with someone who doesn't want to reason.

What I can say is this, you deserve happiness. You deserve better. Its up to you to accept and understand that.

Thank you. I was very happy with him, for the first months. But the last month and a half with him, has been very hard on me and his actions have continually pulled me into a pit of deep unhappiness for days at a time, pulling me away from the other good things in my life, where everything feels awful.

I'm very disappointed that this hasn't worked, and that he isn't the person he seemed to be in the beginning. He seemed so much more considerate to me at first, he was sweet, he was kind and good to me, and he seemed to want the same things. I felt in love with him. I don't know what's happened in the past month and a half to make him become so much more selfish. I don't know if it's my fault for trying to "force" him into a relationship. However I also don't think I ever tried to force him, I just was honest about what I wanted in the long run (a committed relationship, either with him or someone else).

I'm feeling awful right now, I'm in pain, I'm completely off balance, I'm depressed, I'm ungrounded, I'm reeling. I don't do well with losing people.

 

[kdt26417]

Sorry to hear that. I hope you have some healing in the weeks/months ahead.

 

[Magdlyn]

Yes, I wish I meant something to him. I wish I was important to him. Regardless of the pain he's caused me, I still feel like I care deeply for him. I don't think he cares as much for me. He said it in his message this morning: "I'm sorry that it isn't working with us. I'm not going to change the way that i am. I am who and what I am. Your interpretation of this and what ought I do has no influence on me."

Based on my conversation last night, I feel like it's already done. We're already broken up. I feel like I've been a coward. I feel like I was holding on. But I think both him and I recognize now that this is not working. And he is certainly not willing to consider me right now. What more is there to be said? I wish it wasn't so, but it is. I've tried to talk to him, I've tried to find common ground with him. He wants none of it. He says "take me or leave me, I'm not changing who I am." I am just hurting myself trying to reason with someone who doesn't want to reason.

...I was very happy with him, for the first months. But the last month and a half with him, has been very hard on me and his actions have continually pulled me into a pit of deep unhappiness for days at a time, pulling me away from the other good things in my life, where everything feels awful.

I'm very disappointed that this hasn't worked, and that he isn't the person he seemed to be in the beginning. He seemed so much more considerate to me at first, he was sweet, he was kind and good to me, and he seemed to want the same things. I felt in love with him. I don't know what's happened in the past month and a half to make him become so much more selfish.

"Seemed" is the key word. It was an act. And now, he hasn't changed and become more selfish. He always was, but he was covering it up to hook you during his "idealization" phase. Now you are in the "devaluation" phase. He has undoubtedly repeated this pattern his whole life.

I don't know if it's my fault for trying to "force" him into a relationship. However I also don't think I ever tried to force him, I just was honest about what I wanted in the long run (a committed relationship, either with him or someone else).

It's not your fault, and you never tried to "force" him into anything!

I'm feeling awful right now, I'm in pain, I'm completely off balance, I'm depressed, I'm ungrounded, I'm reeling. I don't do well with losing people.

Agent, please read my post in your other thread. I went through this with a man a couple years ago. He was also, at first, sweet, kind, good and seemed to want what I wanted in a relationship.

To disagree with Karen a bit, you didn't "ask" for this, or attract this type, or somehow cause this to happen because of confusion or whatever in your own mind about relationship shape, or low self esteem or whatever.

I believe you when you say you felt stable and balanced before you met him, and now are left reeling and depressed. I felt the same way after my Narcissistic boyfriend betrayed me, when his true personality and agenda came to the fore. I was blindsided when he changed his tune. Narcs prey on healthy loving "normal" women (or men). Please google Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Don Juan Narcissist. You'll see a list of characteristics they have. I hope that will help you make some sense out of your extreme disappointment at how this worked out. It did for me.

 

[Magdlyn]

Oh, and beware. Almost always, a Narc will try to reel you back in after a breakup, after about 4-6 weeks. His new fuck buddy will start to bore or irritate him in some way, and he will turn to you for his narcissistic supply again. Don't get fooled again! Even if he speaks promises about commitment, or speaks promises to use condoms or whatever, he is lying, he is toying with you for his own entertainment and self-gratification, and will just hurt you again.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I believe you when you say you felt stable and balanced before you met him....

Just to clarify: I believe this, as well, but a new romantic relationship often challenges us in ways that the rest of life does not. Absolutely, anyone is free to think about what I say or not, but relationships always reflect what we have going on inside of ourselves. To me, it's much more fruitful to look at the tremendous power that i do have to influence my experiences in relationships rather than take the perspective that I have no say in who and who does not enter into my intimate world - and what they do once they are here. Taking responsibility for my essential part in how things evolve is what helps me get to better and better places in my love life. I've been through this quite a number of times in my life, what agent is describing, and whether you call it asking for it or assigning diagnoses/problems to others or just learning from experience, we get involved with people in ways that we choose. It's actually helpful to have some drama under our belt that (hopefully) helps us each form a stronger sense of self and form a proud, clear picture of what we want (and what we will not stand for) in future relationships.