Finally had the hard talk

Yes, I wish I meant something to him. I wish I was important to him. Regardless of the pain he's caused me, I still feel like I care deeply for him. I don't think he cares as much for me. He said it in his message this morning: "I'm sorry that it isn't working with us. I'm not going to change the way that i am. I am who and what I am. Your interpretation of this and what ought I do has no influence on me."

From those words, I think he cares more for himself and what he wants. That means, there's no room for you or maybe anyone for him to care about as much as he cares about himself. What he wrote shows a selfish world view. That's not poly. That's hooking up for a hook up and disregarding the person.

Based on my conversation last night, I feel like it's already done. We're already broken up. I feel like I've been a coward. I feel like I was holding on. But I think both him and I recognize now that this is not working. And he is certainly not willing to consider me right now. What more is there to be said? I wish it wasn't so, but it is. I've tried to talk to him, I've tried to find common ground with him. He wants none of it. He says "take me or leave me, I'm not changing who I am." I am just hurting myself trying to reason with someone who doesn't want to reason.

Outside looking in, you're not a coward for thinking of your boundaries and what you need. That's what a strong person does. They think of how does this effect me? What does this mean to me? Asking for what you need and want is never wrong. When people who love us in return hear what we need and want, they tend to share and provide because they care for us too. If they can't they say why. From what you wrote about this man, that's not where he is. And most likely, he may never be that way for and to you. I am sorry. It hurts and its going to hurt. But you've come this far. You can do this.

Thank you. I was very happy with him, for the first months. But the last month and a half with him, has been very hard on me and his actions have continually pulled me into a pit of deep unhappiness for days at a time, pulling me away from the other good things in my life, where everything feels awful.

The new relationship phase wore off. And the true state of affairs is showing through. The change in your own emotional response shows this. There seems to be no deep connection regardless of the sexual connection.

I'm very disappointed that this hasn't worked, and that he isn't the person he seemed to be in the beginning. He seemed so much more considerate to me at first, he was sweet, he was kind and good to me, and he seemed to want the same things. I felt in love with him. I don't know what's happened in the past month and a half to make him become so much more selfish. I don't know if it's my fault for trying to "force" him into a relationship. However I also don't think I ever tried to force him, I just was honest about what I wanted in the long run (a committed relationship, either with him or someone else).

The true personality is coming out. Its not your fault. Yes, you were part of it but you have choice to either stay and be used or make another choice that is healthier and more fulfilling for you. He is selfish. He's not going to change for anyone. You know where he stands, now you have to decide on where you will stand.

I'm feeling awful right now, I'm in pain, I'm completely off balance, I'm depressed, I'm ungrounded, I'm reeling. I don't do well with losing people.

Take care of yourself. Keep your boundaries firm. Be honest in how you feel and don't be afraid to feel them. You have to go through the tough feelings to get through to the good ones. If you do end the relationship, do so. Don't just assume. Make it clear. Set a boundary. Not for him but for you. This is where I am. This is where I ended it. Say the last things you need to say and then close the door. You don't have to burn, nuke or trash it. Just end it and let him know, no he can't come back. No, he made his choice and this is good bye. Do it for you.

I wish I had more to give you other than just words. Having been though a bad break up, I know how bad it is. My partner watched me suffer and I watched him suffer. Yet, we pulled each other through. Find your friends and family who will help pull you through this. You'll work through it. Be kind to yourself and don't beat yourself up. Remember hindsight is always 20/20. Realize you now know what you will accept and what you won't accept. That's a life lesson that is difficult to get through but when you know that, you can see these types of people coming from a mile away. That is the best outcome.
 
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Just to clarify: I believe this, as well, but a new romantic relationship often challenges us in ways that the rest of life does not. Absolutely, anyone is free to think about what I say or not, but relationships always reflect what we have going on inside of ourselves. To me, it's much more fruitful to look at the tremendous power that i do have to influence my experiences in relationships rather than take the perspective that I have no say in who and who does not enter into my intimate world - and what they do once they are here. Taking responsibility for my essential part in how things evolve is what helps me get to better and better places in my love life. I've been through this quite a number of times in my life, what agent is describing, and whether you call it asking for it or assigning diagnoses/problems to others or just learning from experience, we get involved with people in ways that we choose. It's actually helpful to have some drama under our belt that (hopefully) helps us each form a stronger sense of self and form a proud, clear picture of what we want (and what we will not stand for) in future relationships.

Karen, there are creeps out there. We can't always identify them at first, since the narcs can be excellent at mimicking normal human emotion and behaviors. The best we can do is be adept at seeing the red flags. And healing after we dump them depends on still believing in ourselves as good people who didn't ask to be used this way.

I was with my Narcissist for 2 1/2 years. It took me 6 months to be ready to date again (other than my live-in partner, of course). One of the first people I dated showed signs of NPD. Yes, I had some "drama under my belt" with my prior partner that helped me rid myself of the next Narc tout de suite!!
 
"Seemed" is the key word. It was an act. And now, he hasn't changed and become more selfish. He always was, but he was covering it up to hook you during his "idealization" phase. Now you are in the "devaluation" phase. He has undoubtedly repeated this pattern his whole life.

It's not your fault, and you never tried to "force" him into anything!

Agent, please read my post in your other thread. I went through this with a man a couple years ago. He was also, at first, sweet, kind, good and seemed to want what I wanted in a relationship.

To disagree with Karen a bit, you didn't "ask" for this, or attract this type, or somehow cause this to happen because of confusion or whatever in your own mind about relationship shape, or low self esteem or whatever.

I believe you when you say you felt stable and balanced before you met him, and now are left reeling and depressed. I felt the same way after my Narcissistic boyfriend betrayed me, when his true personality and agenda came to the fore. I was blindsided when he changed his tune. Narcs prey on healthy loving "normal" women (or men). Please google Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Don Juan Narcissist. You'll see a list of characteristics they have. I hope that will help you make some sense out of your extreme disappointment at how this worked out. It did for me.

Mags - yes, I just read it. Your description of what you went through with the narcissist boyfriend sounds all too familiar to me right now. I will google more about it.

I can confirm once again that I was indeed feeling VERY stable, balanced and happy when I met him last fall. In fact, I was feeling the happiest I have been in a long long time. I'd largely taken the prior two years to be alone and focus on things that made me happy and I was succeeding incredibly at that. I felt ready to dip my toe into the dating pool again and while I didn't expect it, felt myself very drawn and connected to this man.

I had a good long talk with it about my sister last night and she confirmed that she really doesn't think I did anything wrong in the beginning, and that he was presenting a very different persona at first so it would have been near impossible to know then that something was "up" (except the no condom thing on the first date, which she agrees was a huge red flag). I talked to her about it back in Dec when things were new, and she actually complimented me on how balanced I was being with things with him. And I was. I was actually still dating two other people when I first met him. I was taking my time. I was keeping my focus on my own activities and work etc. She actually thinks I handled everything in a very mature way by continuing to take care of myself, being very clear with him and communicating my needs clearly, and taking my time before opening up emotionally to him. I know I made a mistake by jumping into bed with him too quickly, and allowing myself to get very drunk with him that first date. I should have been much more cautious there. But in every other regard I feel I was emotionally cautious and taking care of myself, until things went sideways in early Feb. The turning point for me was when, after months of dating and him basically treating me like a girlfriend and being in a relationship, and a lovely 3 day getaway together, he decided to tell me he only thought of me and called me a "friend."
 
Oh, and beware. Almost always, a Narc will try to reel you back in after a breakup, after about 4-6 weeks. His new fuck buddy will start to bore or irritate him in some way, and he will turn to you for his narcissistic supply again. Don't get fooled again! Even if he speaks promises about commitment, or speaks promises to use condoms or whatever, he is lying, he is toying with you for his own entertainment and self-gratification, and will just hurt you again. :mad:

This is scary to me. I feel like he's already been trying to reel me back in.

On Tuesday night when I was being more "detached" with him than usual, he really didn't like it. I told him it's reasonable I would be detached given everything that's happened, the fact he won't commit to me, the fact that he says he's not in love with me. But he still didn't like it. Is he getting off on the power of knowing my emotions are reeling over him right now?

Last night we talked by text for hours. I was about to tell him "this relationship is over, don't contact me" but then I failed to set a boundary... again.
 
The best we can do is be adept at seeing the red flags. And healing after we dump them depends on still believing in ourselves as good people who didn't ask to be used this way.

It's not about whether someone is a good person, but I've offered my perspective in the sub-topics of all three threads and I think it's best if I just leave it at that.
 
This is scary to me. I feel like he's already been trying to reel me back in.

On Tuesday night when I was being more "detached" with him than usual, he really didn't like it. I told him it's reasonable I would be detached given everything that's happened, the fact he won't commit to me, the fact that he says he's not in love with me. But he still didn't like it. Is he getting off on the power of knowing my emotions are reeling over him right now?

Yes, he is. An example. When my ex and I were near the end of our relationship, he was also dating a new to poly married MF couple. Having sex with both of them. Playing them against each other. There were jealousies and competition, and they broke up with him and got back together with him twice before he and I broke up. I said, "It's so complicated!" He said, "I like complicated," and gave a gentle pleased laugh. He enjoyed their pain and flailing, and then the reconnections when they just couldn't resist his charms. And he must have enjoyed my pain at seeing all that mess from the sidelines as well. He flaunted the multiple hickies the wife had given him in public at a garden party we all went to, taking off his shirt when he and his couple went for a swim-- the only adults that got in the pool! It was a cool afternoon and the water was cold from a rainstorm. She'd given him 6 or 7 hickies all around his left chest. He didn't care (or more likely, enjoyed) that all the people at the party, including children, saw the multiple love bites on his body. I thought it was gross.
Last night we talked by text for hours. I was about to tell him "this relationship is over, don't contact me" but then I failed to set a boundary... again.

Well, it's hard to change your patterns right away. My ex and I also spent an hour or so everyday texting when things were good. I spent a few days after our breakup still chatting with him. Then I went NO CONTACT for 42 days. I planned to go 40 days, but found I just didn't care to get back in touch. But he got in touch with me!

So, I'd recommend going NO CONTACT, as all the recovery pages also recommend.
 
I have considered going no contact. But if I just stop talking without also doing a clear "This is over, don't contact me" statement he may still get in touch with me. I did "no contact" with him for a much shorter period (4 days) a few weeks ago, and sure enough he texted me, pretending like nothing have ever happened and everything was fine.

Did you tell your ex that things were done, and that you were going no contact? Or did you just do it?

He said last night that he didn't want to be the source of my misery. He also said "I think we were doing quite well. That saying 'honesty is the best policy' wrecked our dynamic. Well, I'm not going to change anyway. You want someone exclusive for you. I told you, and 'her.' She is/was okay about it, and you were/are not."

This statement gets to me, because he's saying "She's okay with who I am and how I'm behaving right now, and you are not okay with who I am and how I'm behaving"

It makes me feel inadequate. It makes me feel like I'm making an issue where there is none. It makes me feel inadequate because I'm not okay with his actions right now in the way that she is, and that she's somehow "better" than me for just being able to go with the flow with him.

I told him "You do not get to decide what I want, or tell me whether I wanted exclusivity or not. That is my choice and it was my choice to try to explore poly with you. Honesty is not what wrecked our dynamic. I think your lack of respect for my needs and feelings lately is. It's a two way street."

I also told him it's a completely different relationship stage. It's easy to be non-exclusive in the beginning. I was seeing two other people when I met him, and he was seeing other people. I didn't care about it then, but 5 months in, it's different when there are feelings involved and bonding has happened.

This statement of his is getting to me right now :(
 
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The thing about going no contact is that you have to be the one doing it...you can ask him to not contact you, but given that he hasn't honored your other requests, it's unlikely that he would honor this request, either (unless it suits him to do so.) I think it's reasonable to just say "you're right, this is a basic incompatibility. I agree that we shouldn't see each other any more. I would appreciate it if you would not contact me further." Then block him (on your phone, social media, and email.) If he has keys to your apartment, change your locks. If he has things at your place, mail them to him. And, stay away from his usual haunts. For most people, that would be sufficient to end the relationship and discourage him from contacting you further.
 
Re (from Post #27):
"She's okay with who I am and how I'm behaving right now, and you are not okay with who I am and how I'm behaving."

I wonder if he is giving her the same treatment right now as what he's giving you? I seem to remember he treated you good at first. Maybe he's following the same pattern with her.
 
I am so sorry you have had to go through all this. Please focus on your own healing.

But if I just stop talking without also doing a clear "This is over, don't contact me" statement he may still get in touch with me.

Hon, he doesn't listen or care about what you say and he doesn't respect your boundaries. It's all about him. All you can do is not be there when he comes looking for narcissist supply. For people like that? ANY attention will do. Good attention or bad attention does not matter so long as he's the one in the spotlight on center stage.

Rather than talk? Could move on to actions instead. Block his number and/or change yours. Make yourself "undingable." Then even if he TRIED to call? He cannot. It just goes nowhere.

Healing from this will take time. FWIW, I honestly believe it was NOT you. You seem like you want healthy relating. You deserve that, and you deserve to be treated well.

Galagirl
 
He enjoys controlling you. When you want to be with him, he lectures you about your faults, & acts as though his bored presence is something for which you should kiss his feet. And when YOU are at all ho-hum about HIM & don't WANT to argue about the laws of his little Neverland, he needs to draw you back in.

You don't seem to have much meanness in you, or I could suggest you play the other side of the table, & back off until he is willing to interact on YOUR terms or stay away.

But unless you're aprofessional therapist AND being well-paid for the effort, I figure your time is much better used doing something else. No, correct that: doing ANYTHING else.

Either accept that staying with him is going to be variations on the already-boring theme, or break away as cleanly as you can (because a restraining order may yet be required). Simple choice -- decide NOW.

Personally, I think you should buy a nice new dogging bat &, the next time he confronts you, beat him to the ground & not stop hitting until he cries like the spoiled little brat he is... but I've been dumped a few times for jerkoffs like him so I might be a little biased. :D
 
I have considered going no contact. But if I just stop talking without also doing a clear "This is over, don't contact me" statement he may still get in touch with me. I did "no contact" with him for a much shorter period (4 days) a few weeks ago, and sure enough he texted me, pretending like nothing have ever happened and everything was fine.

So, just ignore him. That is what Narcs do.

Did you tell your ex that things were done

Yes, I broke up with him, and he didn't like it one bit. He wanted to keep stringing me along to keep me in his back pocket for when his couple were coming and going.

...and that you were going no contact? Or did you just do it?

I can't remember now, it was close to 2 years ago we broke up. I think we just stopped talking, but then he recontacted me, as I said, 42 days later. We met then to see if we could get back together as friends or FWBs but he just pissed me off again, big-time, with his word salad and gaslighting, so that was that.

He said last night that he didn't want to be the source of my misery. He also said "I think we were doing quite well. That saying 'honesty is the best policy' wrecked our dynamic. Well, I'm not going to change anyway. You want someone exclusive for you. I told you, and 'her.' She is/was okay about it, and you were/are not."

This statement gets to me, because he's saying "She's okay with who I am and how I'm behaving right now, and you are not okay with who I am and how I'm behaving"

It makes me feel inadequate. It makes me feel like I'm making an issue where there is none. It makes me feel inadequate because I'm not okay with his actions right now in the way that she is, and that she's somehow "better" than me for just being able to go with the flow with him.

Typical. He's devaluing you, and idealizing her. I went through the exact same thing. That is just what Narcs do.

I told him "You do not get to decide what I want, or tell me whether I wanted exclusivity or not. That is my choice and it was my choice to try to explore poly with you. Honesty is not what wrecked our dynamic. I think your lack of respect for my needs and feelings lately is. It's a two way street."

I also told him it's a completely different relationship stage. It's easy to be non-exclusive in the beginning. I was seeing two other people when I met him, and he was seeing other people. I didn't care about it then, but 5 months in, it's different when there are feelings involved and bonding has happened.

This statement of his is getting to me right now :(

Yeah, it hurts! Just stop talking to him. Try not to focus on what he is doing with his new victim. Allow yourself to grieve, but don't add any more logs to the fire. Soon enough you will have moved on to more positive things in your life, armed with info on how to avoid these types of people in the future.

Try reading or posting here. It helped me.

https://www.psychopathfree.com/
 
Re (from Post #27):
I wonder if he is giving her the same treatment right now as what he's giving you? I seem to remember he treated you good at first. Maybe he's following the same pattern with her.

Yes, I'm wondering if he will follow the same pattern with her.
What do you guys think?

My big fear is still that somehow she'll magically be able to handle all his BS in a way that I wasn't able to and they'll have a long happy relationship.

I know it's irrational, but it's my fear. (I have a deep fear of inadequacy and "being replaced" esp by someone "better than me.")

In my convo with him the other night, I learned more clearly that he is closed off to love.... he said he felt he was capable but that it's very hard for him to fall in love. Which is apparently a characteristic of Narcissistic Personality Disorder too.
He said he didn't like most people, but he liked me, and that I was a good person. But he's been very clear that he's not in love with me. He also said he sees himself becoming an old alone miserable single man. I asked him if that's what he wants; He said it isn't necessarily what he wants but that he also doesn't want to change.

FYI, I spoke to my therapist today who confirmed that his professional opinion, based on what I've told him, is that this guy does have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I'm a bit surprised. I think it was very hard to detect til now. I saw the selfishness lately, and the emotional detachment, but I didn't know about this disorder. I've been reading more about it. My therapist also recommended that I break it off and go no contact.

If it's true, that means he will have trouble falling in love with ANYONE and maintaining a relationship with anyone for any length of time. From what I understand. However, he has done long term (monogamous) relationships in the past, the longest one being 5 years which he tells me about all the time as proof for why monogamy doesn't work for him. He said there was nothing wrong with that relationship but he just "couldn't do it any more" one day and ended it. "it just fizzled out." Now he's decided based on that he can't do monogamy (and thinks he's polyamorous? Although I really don't think he is, as we've discussed. He seems to lack the basic skills for someone to do a healthy poly relationship).

I don't know. I'm still feeling inadequate somehow for not being able to "do" poly with him easily, as apparently this other girl so easily can. He is putting the blame on me for only wanting something "exclusive." Even tho it was my conscious choice to try poly with him, and I feel I might be able to do it with someone more reasonable.
 
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So, just ignore him. That is what Narcs do.

Yes, I broke up with him, and he didn't like it one bit. He wanted to keep stringing me along to keep me in his back pocket for when his couple were coming and going.

I can't remember now, it was close to 2 years ago we broke up. I think we just stopped talking, but then he recontacted me, as I said, 42 days later. We met then to see if we could get back together as friends or FWBs but he just pissed me off again, big-time, with his word salad and gaslighting, so that was that.

Typical. He's devaluing you, and idealizing her. I went through the exact same thing. That is just what Narcs do.

Yeah, it hurts! Just stop talking to him. Try not to focus on what he is doing with his new victim. Allow yourself to grieve, but don't add any more logs to the fire. Soon enough you will have moved on to more positive things in your life, armed with info on how to avoid these types of people in the future.

Try reading or posting here. It helped me.

https://www.psychopathfree.com/

I've been debating if I could do some kind of Friends or Friends With Benefits arrangement with him. But of course I have concerns:

Friends - Will he still try to get in my pants? Apparently he's only thought of me as a "friend" all along, despite charming me and treating me like a girlfriend in a serious relationship.

Friends with Benefits - this seems what he actually wants (with multiple people). To stay single but have companionship and occasional sex. I wonder why he was never able to be up front with me and just ask for that? But I guess it's cause of the Narc thing. I like the companionship and I like the sex with him, and maybe I could learn to detach my emotions from him now that I see who he is. But I sure as hell don't like the no condom thing and the head games and how shitty it makes me feel after. I've done a 2 year FWB arrangement previously, so I know I can do it as long as it's clear that's what it is. But the previous guy I did it with was more up front and always used a condom, without question. It was a true FWB thing. This current guy was never able to be up front about wanting that and always made me believe he wanted a relationship and treated me like a gf. And we all know his policy on condoms now.


I'd also like to just say again, thanks everyone for your comments and support as I'm going through this. I truly appreciate it. It's been great to find such a lovely community who seem genuinely concerned!
 
Re (from agentb2016):
"I have a deep fear of inadequacy and 'being replaced,' especially by someone 'better than me.'"

The thing is, I don't believe he is a good match for you. If he's a good match for someone else, then my suggestion is, let them have him. That person isn't better than you, they are just different.

Although I wonder if he is capable of having anything better than a dysfunctional relationship with anyone. We can't jump inside his mind and find out, but you've gotta admit he hasn't been acting very good lately.

It's not just about whether you can please him. A good partner should be pleasing to you too.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
My big fear is still that somehow she'll magically be able to handle all his BS in a way that I wasn't able to and they'll have a long happy relationship.

Even if he 'replaces' you ... then what? As you said, she would handle his BS. Full stop. BS stays BS, if you handle it good or bad does not change that fact. Where is your motivation to do that? Just to be 'better' in some weird way? Even in your own eyes you should feel that your worth is more than just 'being good at taking BS'. I doubt that this makes you 'magically happy' all of a sudden.
 
I wanted to say something like Phy. Not standing up to his BS wouldn't make you a better person. Some people stay in very unhappy relationships or allow people to treat them badly. This doesn't make them better. Besides, you only have his word for it that she's handling it and he doesn't sound a reliable source or particularly perceptive.
 
Although I wonder if he is capable of having anything better than a dysfunctional relationship with anyone. We can't jump inside his mind and find out, but you've gotta admit he hasn't been acting very good lately.

It's not just about whether you can please him. A good partner should be pleasing to you too.

Even if he 'replaces' you ... then what? As you said, she would handle his BS. Full stop. BS stays BS, if you handle it good or bad does not change that fact. Where is your motivation to do that? Just to be 'better' in some weird way? Even in your own eyes you should feel that your worth is more than just 'being good at taking BS'. I doubt that this makes you 'magically happy' all of a sudden.

Maybe his BS isn't obvious to her yet....it's taken me 4 months to see just how emotionally detached he can be and how ignorant to my needs and feelings.

I wanted to say something like Phy. Not standing up to his BS wouldn't make you a better person. Some people stay in very unhappy relationships or allow people to treat them badly. This doesn't make them better. Besides, you only have his word for it that she's handling it and he doesn't sound a reliable source or particularly perceptive.

True, I only have his word for it. I don't know her and can't speak much for how that relationship is going other than he says "she's okay with how I am and you're not." Which just feels a lot like blaming me instead of taking responsibility for himself.

I'm still afraid of losing him. I'm sure he'll be able to find other people in the kink community who are okay with having a mostly sexual relationship with him and will get sucked into his charm. It'll hurt if I see him doing stuff with them and not me, even if I know his issues now.

I'm still having difficulty just telling him "it's over" and moving on. I'm trying to do things to take care of myself, but I am still responding to his messages sometimes.

I'm still debating if I should try to be friends with him.

I'm pretty sure he'll keep a relationship with me as long as I do what he wants and don't make an issue of my needs or feelings. Which includes letting him see other people whenever he feels like it. Having sex with him (without a condom). Spending time with him and doing datey things even tho he may never call me a "girlfriend" or give me assurance that he wants something long term. If I do these things I can continue to enjoy the sex and companionship with him that I so enjoy and don't want to lose.

The sad thing is, I think part of me actually wants this. I'm aware that I have low self esteem. I'm aware that I've had codependency issues in the past. But I want him to need me, and I don't want to lose him. Part of me thinks I don't deserve and won't be able to get better treatment than this from someone else.
 
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Everything we do in life, we take a risk. The best we can do is calculate the risks and decide what seems to be most worth it. You can certainly choose to stay with this guy; heck, maybe he will even improve. If you don't try, you'll never know. On the other hand, you could end up wasting years of your life ...
 
I'm aware that I have low self esteem.

Treating yourself with self respect is ACTION. What you DO. Self esteem is what you THINK of your behavior.


So if you choose behaviors that treat you with self respect? You can feel proud of those choices. Your self esteem goes up.

If you choose behaviors that treat you with no self respect? You feel bad about those choices. You self esteem goes down.

If you want to improve your self esteem? You could have to examine your behavior choices.

It's going to be hard to think proud things about yourself (i.e.: have good self esteem) when you choose "hang around with a guy who treats you bad" because that is less than self respecting behavior. You could choose to hang around people who treat you well instead.

Part of me thinks I don't deserve and won't be able to get better treatment than this from someone else.

Are you willing to go to neutral? Like you cannot believe you can get to a plus zone. Ok.

But can you believe you can go to neutral zone? You get rid of him and he's not a drain on your energy, brain, time, and so on?

Galagirl
 
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