For Those Who Deeply Love Jesus

Actually, I don't agree with this statement. It seems obvious to me, the Gospels were written as hagiography. Hagiography means the biography of a saint; in this case, a holy man. They tend to be rather fanciful.
Well, I think of a biography or life story as a historical report about someone. Sure, the Bible has all these books with their specific subject matters, but as a whole, in essence it's a historical account of the people, cultures, and places - with some lyrical poetry of sorts sprinkled in. That's how I think of it. I love how you always look at what was happening at the time it was written and what certain words and concepts actually meant to the people who wrote it.

My point was that it was written by people, not some supernatural being, and has been changed by many people over the centuries. Kind of like an ancient Wikipedia!
 
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nstead it has once again become a place of debate about the authenticity of the bible and a challenge to anyone who believes Jesus is God.
Yup. I guess there aren't too many Christian believers of your type on this board.

Or any that would contribute has been put off by the actions of some members who just couldn't help coming into a thread titled "Those Who Love Jesus" despite more or less doubting he exists at all.
 
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Or any that would contribute has been put off by the actions of some members who just couldn't help coming into a thread titled "Those Who Love Jesus" despite more or less doubting he exists at all.

Yeah, noticed that.
 
It certainly doesn't make the thought of visiting the local pagan assemblies any more inviting than the other neo-religious political assemblies.

I've come to realize that Christ's repudiation of the teacher's of the law is not a condemnation and revelation of their eternal destiny but wise advice that debate about the law, either pro or con doesn't create an atmosphere that inspires friendship, love and intimacy that protects the integrity of the most vulnerable among us.

Every time I try to personalize this discussion to find out if there are others who like me have managed to reconcile their belief that Jesus is God with their non-monogamy or inclusive love styles I am confronted with just one more version of getting the shit kicked out of me by someone who doesn't love me.

Apparently I'm just a speck in their eye. But it's helping me to continue to remove the beam in my own eye.

I've done my share of what is now being done to me. It's painful and it is teaching me to be even more disciplined about what I say when I am with people who I don't understand or love.

I'll keep this in mind as I forgive and continue to learn that I'm a long way's off from replicating what Jesus did when He simply disappeared into the crowd.

Removing the irritant from their eyes.
 
Well, LB, don't base your impressions on what "pagan gatherings" must be like upon my interest in Biblical Historical Criticism.

Most pagans probably don't give 2 shits about Biblical Historical Criticism... They are much more likely to be honoring Gaia and the Green Man and other such dieties at their rites. Playing drums around a fire, things like that.

I think it's fine you want to love, to be poly, to have gay sex, and still ID as a Christian. I see who wrote the Bible, when, why and so on has nothing to do with the bits of Jesus' philosophy you agree with. Hey, whatever gets you through the night!

You might want to look into gnostic Christianity. It was the first Christianity, it was the most popular Christianity of the first few centuries, before Constantine forced the bishops to agree on what was "true canon," and what was "heresy" in the documents floating around the area back then.

Much of what Paul wrote is gnostic. After all, if Christ is in you (and me) as I above quoted, there is no need for church, paid priests, fancy buildings, forced tithing, paying for masses for departed souls, etc etc. All you need is a few people coming together to pray, sing and share the Eucharist.

I prefer gnosticism over orthodox Christianity myself. In it, Mary Magdalene has a bigger role and her own Gospel. Even Judas is given a break, and his own gospel. The angry god of the Old Testament (Yahweh), is called the Demiurge or Ialdabaoth, and is considered a lesser god, not the Father of whom Jesus talks with such love.

http://gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

I own a book called The Other Bible which contains many gnostic gospels and acts, as well as writings from the mystical Judaism called Kaballah. I find gnosticism to be quite similar to Buddhism since it is more interested in personal enlightenment, and not dependent on priests and bishops to be involved in forgiveness of sins. It is also more woman friendly and has a concept of Sophia, or Wisdom. She was present in the Garden of Eden. She was brought to earth in the bodies of the 2 Marys, Virgin and Magdalene. (The feminine divinities present at the Christ's birth and death, womb and tomb.)

Gnosticism is much more democratic and therefore was a threat to the Roman Empire and banned.

I never understood why Jesus had a Father and no Mother. It was revealed to me through gnosticism that the Holy Spirit is Sophia, and Jesus' Mother. The dove that flew down at His Baptism, who said, "This is my son, with whom I am well pleased"? The dove was a common GODDESS symbol of the day. This dove was Jesus' mother, and also his consort, the Great Mother, Sophia.

I like balance in my life and in my creed. Therefore, I prefer the way gnosticism balanced the masculine and feminine, the Father, the Mother, the Son, the consort of the Son, who came to aid him in his mission on earth. Mary Magdalene anointed Jesus' head and feet in preparation for his arrest, trial, crucifixion and burial. She "got" him, while the male disciples were thick and blundering. "Magdalene" is a Greek form of the Hebrew word "tower," migdal, as in Tower of Faith.

Once I realized all this, Christianity made sense to me in a way it never did before. I believe the "beloved disciple" in the canonical Gospel of John was Mary M, not St John. I feel Leonardo da Vinci realized this when he painted a feminine figure leaning on Jesus' shoulder in his Last Supper.
 
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For those that haven't read all my posts in the other Christian threads here, I want you to know I did a 7 year self directed course of study in the history of the Bible. From about Easter 2000 to 2007, I spent 2 hours a day, 7 days a week, studying the Bible, using the Oxford Bible, which has lots of extra text explaining the culture of the era in which the Bible was written, Old Testament and New. It also has literature that explains the way things were in the "intertestamental" period, the time in between when the Book of Daniel was written, to the time when Paul created Christianity in the first century AD.

I am in the place many seminarians are. Many of them read the same information I dug up and come to the same conclusions about Christianity that I have. It's much more complicated than what it taught from pulpits all over the world. Many seminarians "lose their faith" as a result of their education. Some go on to become ministers, pastors, priests because... well, they don't want to have spent all the money for school only to have it go to waste! Others drop out and become atheists.

I do not hate Jesus at all! I love Jesus' theology, but only when his Consort Mary Magdalene is by his side. I reject the patriarchy taking over Jesus' philosophy and hiding Mary's great role in his mission.

But the feminine divine can't be held down. Look at how the Catholics still honor Mary several times a day when they chant the Rosary.

Holy Mary Mother of God, blessed art Thou, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

There are also countless churches and cathedrals honoring Mary Magdalene, Jesus' wife. The beloved disciple, the one who came to his tomb to againt anoint him, the one who saw him risen when the male disciples scoffed. She's my girl. I chose my screenname in Her honor.
 
Mag, I would be thrilled to sit at the feet of Mary M. with you. I have read that John may have been the only disciple to care for her or Christ's mother when He died. I really like the thought that John's loyalty to his friend extended to the women He loved.

If you have a source of information about Mary M, do tell.

My hero Sam Adams who dared to tell a king he wasn't god got his strength from Abigail. Her warning that the exclusion of women from the constitution would lead to our downfall was prophetic.

I'm extremely proud of our state's progressiveness. Incredible that we've had two diverse, extremely intelligent and competent women as AG's.

As you well know a boy from Boston understands that a woman is his equal only because she allows him to be.

And before the rest of you accuse me of being a cuckold I don't play with deflated balls. Tom Brady got away with it, my wife won't allow it.
 
Mag, I would be thrilled to sit at the feet of Mary M. with you. I have read that John may have been the only disciple to care for her or Christ's mother when He died. I really like the thought that John's loyalty to his friend extended to the women He loved.

LB, there is no need to sit at the feet of the Magdalene. She sat at Jesus' feet when she was called Mary of Bethany. I feel the best we can do is discover her, and honor her in our hearts.

There is a gnostic legend of how Jesus took Mary to a mountaintop, made sexual love to her, and they experienced an actual becoming One. Yes, Jesus had sex with Mary M. If they weren't in a sexual relationship, she wouldn't have wiped the anointing oils on his feet with her actual hair. That is so sexy!

Their marriage and sexual relationship is mirrored on the Song of Songs in the Old Testament, as well as in many "pagan" stories of old. From Isis and Osiris, to Ishtar and Tammuz, to Leda and the Swan, to Shiva and Shakti, to Jesus and Mary Magdalene, healthy religion honors both male and female energies and divinities, devoted to each other body and soul in the heiros gamos (sacred marriage). That is why sex is sacred to me. I honor the divine every time I shag a partner.

A gnostic tenet is that we do not need to worship Christ. Our role is to BE a Christ. This is of course, horrific heresy to the orthodox, but it makes sense to me

If you have a source of information about Mary M, do tell.

Much of it was popularized in the thriller novel, The Da Vinci Code. A good introductory book is "The Woman with the Alabaster Jar," by Margaret Starbird. A good intro book to gnosticism as a whole is by Elaine Pagels, "The Gnostic Gospels." Here is her amazon page.

http://www.amazon.com/Elaine-Pagels/e/B000AP9OSY/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1441466060&sr=1-2-ent

My hero Sam Adams who dared to tell a king he wasn't god got his strength from Abigail. Her warning that the exclusion of women from the constitution would lead to our downfall was prophetic.

I'm extremely proud of our state's progressiveness. Incredible that we've had two diverse, extremely intelligent and competent women as AG's.

As you well know a boy from Boston understands that a woman is his equal only because she allows him to be.

And before the rest of you accuse me of being a cuckold I don't play with deflated balls. Tom Brady got away with it, my wife won't allow it.


Men would do well, in their heat and fire, to accede to the divine feminine of water and moon. Men are burning our planet up. There is a reason Mary Virgin is honored in wet dripping vulvular grottoes all over Europe.
 
At last pigs can fly.

I wonder if anyone will realize the warm breeze that just blew through their hair at the frog pond was Meg and LB's spirits as close as the right coast and wrong coast could possibly be.
 
There is a gnostic legend of how Jesus took Mary to a mountaintop, made sexual love to her, and they experienced an actual becoming One . . .

Much of it was popularized in the thriller novel, The Da Vinci Code. A good introductory book is "The Woman with the Alabaster Jar," by Margaret Starbird. A good intro book to gnosticism as a whole is by Elaine Pagels, "The Gnostic Gospels."

Mags, have you ever read The Moon Under Her Feet by Clysta Kinstler? I started it years ago but had to give it back to the person who lent it to me before I could finish it, but I remember it was a pretty interesting retelling of Mary Magdalene's relationship with Jesus!
 
oops. not Meg but Mag...I got so excited I forgot to spell check...

also. the reference to "pigs can fly" is from the Herald's "2nd coming" banner headline when the Red Sox won the world series in 2004. I'm told the use of "2nd coming" type set was a first for the Herald who didn't use it even at the end of WWII.

I wasn't being degrading towards pigs or any other living creature or those who eat or don't eat them.
 
At last pigs can fly.

I wonder if anyone will realize the warm breeze that just blew through their hair at the frog pond was Meg and LB's spirits as close as the right coast and wrong coast could possibly be.

LB, my nickname is Mags, not Mag. And think of me as Magdlyn, the teacher of the "secret mysteries" of the Christ, as revealed in the Gnostic Gospels, which is now available to any people who can Google.

I am going to reread my copy of Elaine Pagels' "The Gnostic Gospels" to remind myself of the excitement I had when I discovered all this long lost and now found information, which the Church kept from me and all Christians until 1947, when copies of the gnostic gospels were found buried in jars in a cave in Egypt by an Arab farmer. Banned, uncopied, the gnostic gospels were heresy to Constantine and seemingly lost forever!


The Gospel of Mary (Magdalene)
The Gospel of Thomas (Jesus' twin)
The Apocryphon of John
The Gospel of Philip
Thunder, Perfect Consciousness
The Shepherd of Hermas
and many many others

Read 'em and weep, y'all. They are all online at http://gnosis.org/welcome.html
 
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Mags, have you ever read The Moon Under Her Feet by Clysta Kinstler? I started it years ago but had to give it back to the person who lent it to me before I could finish it, but I remember it was a pretty interesting retelling of Mary Magdalene's relationship with Jesus!

No, I don't think I read that one. Gosh, if you go to Amazon.com and search "Mary Magdalene" nowadays, dozens of books about her appear! She is very popular amongst feminist Christians these days. :)
 
Many thanks, Magdlyn! I have bookmarked this page. It will come in very usefully when I come to write my own gospel.

As is your right, MrFarFromRight.

There is much evidence the entire Jesus story is a retelling, a "midrash" of the Moses/Joshua story anyway. The writers of the Gospels mined the OT for "proof" that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. Moses spent 40 years in the desert leading his people to freedom, then he died, and his successor, Joshua crossed the Jordan. Jesus spent 40 days in the desert, was baptized/reborn in the Jordan, and went on to free his people from the Law (in one version).

Pastors write midrash every time they write a sermon to apply Biblical principles to modern life.

Gnostics were all proud prophets who were encouraged to prophesy and write their own gospels, acts and revelations. Some Christians believe the age of prophecy is over. I don't get that. Why would the divine reveal itself to people of old, and not to people of later eras?
 
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Or any that would contribute has been put off by the actions of some members who just couldn't help coming into a thread titled "Those Who Love Jesus" despite more or less doubting he exists at all.

Exactly.

They know they're going to be subjected to Christian-bashing.

There are plenty of books that give a great deal of historical and scientific evidence contrary to a lot of what is being said in this (and other threads here that turn into Christian-bashing) but I, for one, actually have a job to go for and children and a home to care for, in addition to things I really enjoy doing other than argue with people who are set in their thoughts anyway, and I suspect there are others who don't speak up in this type of thread for the same reason--they simply do not have time to be dragged into such a conversation.

This doesn't mean such people aren't on this board.
 
The problem is, people confuse criticism and questioning with "bashing" or "hatred."

I think most people who ID as Christians their whole lives have doubts as well. They just suppress them for fear of going to hell.

But you can't argue rationally with a Christian because it's an emotional commitment, not one based on thoughts, or historical evidence.

I find it very enlightening to ponder the meaning of Jesus, God, and all the stories and myths in the Bible. People are drawn to "heroes" of many flavors, in all religions around the world, ancient and contemporary, as well as things we consider "fiction," like the Land of Oz, Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc etc. It was when I read the books of the philosopher Joseph Campbell, especially the book The Hero of a Thousand faces, that this phenomenon was brought to light for me.

I remember when I finally figured out that those Greek "myths" I learned about in school were from an actual religion. And that Bible stories, which I thought were fact, were just myths from another religion. It kind of floored me. :)

And then when I did my Bible studies, I realized that Greek religion had a branch called "mystery religion" for the god Dionysus, god of bread and wine, who died hung from a tree. Hmmm.... People of Greece invented theater to perform this myth on stage. It was a religious ritual, including partaking of Dionysus' blood (wine) and flesh (bread), which gave the worshipers "rebirth."
 
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Image of Dionysus with his sacrament of bread and wine, on jar from Greece, 500 BCE
dionysus_vase3.jpg
 
I think most people who ID as Christians their whole lives have doubts as well. They just suppress them for fear of going to hell.

This is one of the things I'm talking about when I say Christian BASHING. I fully agree that most Christians also have doubts. Most human beings at some point question their beliefs. This is normal.

But you make a generalizations and assumptions that 'most' Christians (and that's 2.1 billion, about a third of the world's population) both that they suppress those doubts, and about why they suppress those doubts.

Perhaps you've known Christians like that, but I have never in my life met or read a Christian who never had doubts, or who suppressed them, or who suppressed them only for fear of going to hell.


But you can't argue rationally with a Christian because it's an emotional commitment, not one based on thoughts, or historical evidence.

And this is another instance of what is Christian BASHING: simply assigning 2.1 billion people as emotional, unable to think rationally.

There are many great thinkers who have gone from atheism to Christianity based on historical evidence. C.S. Lewis, for one, set out to once and for all disprove Christianity, but the more he learned, the more he was 'dragged kicking and screaming' to belief.

I have a shelf full of books by some of the great minds of history who were Christian--plenty of whom converted to it after careful study. I have a number of books on the historical, archaeological, and scientific evidence pointing toward reason to believe in the Abrahamic God. You may disagree with the evidence. That's okay. But why do you feel it necessary to view those--including many highly educated professionals, professors, researchers, etc.--who think that evidence adds up to something different, as irrational, emotional, uneducated, or ignorant?

There are great minds who are atheists and believe it's the most rational position. There are atheists who argue from emotion.

There are great minds who are Christian and believe it's the most rational position. There are Christians who argue from emotion.

You simply cannot make the broad, sweeping generalizations you routinely make, about an entire class of people. But you repeatedly, on all these threads, are clear that you think all [or at least most] Christians are unthinking and ignorant.
 
Yeah but Magdlyn, the thread title *is* "For Those Who Deeply Love Jesus" and I just don't get the impression somehow that that describes you. Nowadays I might have flashes of deeply loving Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins so I would avoid a thread with this kind of title if I did not see you were posting. I figure let them have a thread to go to town in if it makes them happy. Cool historical and mythological discussion can happen elsewhere.

Leetah
 
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