How do I even start to explain??

[Journeyofawakening]

I'd appreciate less conflict here. Whether leaving religion or leaving monogamy is more stressful is subjective depending on your experience and viewpoint. I know that leaving monogamy is harder for my husband. And I'm not dismissing his feelings whatsoever, or thinking he is wrong for having them.

I appreciate all your opinions, but I know you all come from different journeys and so will all view things in your unique way. Just as I do. Your support is appreciated but arguing is less helpful here.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I'd appreciate less conflict here....

One of the most fulfilling aspects of this forum community is the rich mix of perspectives and members who think deeply and express their points of view. As the community is so inclined, the discussion wasn't an argument so much as a spirited debate, but it's your thread, Journey, and I'd imagine we're all happy to keep the focus on your needs. We have a great Spirituality & Polyamory section in which this subject could continue. I think it's a very interesting topic!

 

[Journeyofawakening]

One of the most fulfilling aspects of this forum community is the rich mix of perspectives and members who think deeply and express their points of view. As the community is so inclined, the discussion wasn't an argument so much as a spirited debate, but it's your thread, Journey, and I'd imagine we're all happy to keep the focus on your needs. We have a great Spirituality & Polyamory section in which this subject could continue. I think it's a very interesting topic!

I was mostly referring to Max getting a little bit personal towards Mags. I understand we are all different as I said and we all see things a different way, and I appreciate that massively. But I don't think personal attacks are necessary. Maybe it was just the way I read it. I'm under a lot of stress right now I guess! Counselling on Thursday...until then I'm doing my best to keep my mouth shut and my head down. He seems to have got the impression that I have chosen to ignore polyamory and chosen to be exclusive with him. Mostly I feel like I've been pressured to temporarily chose those things so he doesn't get mad and take my kids away.

 

[WhatHappened]

Not all people who subscribe to a religion are "fundies". I think you have an obvious hatred towards religion and religious people and that means that you are unable to view the situation in its entirety.

Do you remember how badly you reacted to a partner wishing to conduct his lifestyle in a way that didn't suit you? You couldn't just be okay with him making his choices and living the life he wanted to, could you? It had to be him living his life in the way you needed him to or he was given the heave ho. That's why it's strange that you cannot empathize with a husband who has found out his wife doesn't want to live the way they've lived for x amount of years. I thought you'd be able to understand how frustrating it is when you cannot control the needs and desires of someone with great influence in your life.

Thank you for saying so.

JourneyofAwakening, if you want a little less 'conflict' on this thread, and people getting 'personal,' you might consider that this thread has had a lot of Christian-bashing going on. I glimpse at it every once in awhile and see more comments, including from you, about 'narrow minded.'

Is it 'narrow-minded' of someone to not agree with you? Does that mean you are also narrow minded, since you don't agree with them?

I fully agree with Max. You're expecting your husband to just upend his entire way of life, dismiss the vows he made to you and happily see you disregard the vows you made to him. I would guess a great many atheists would also not agree to their wives sleeping with other men. As would a great many Jews, Hindis, Muslims, Buddhists, vegans, liberals, libertarians, and people of all stripes.

I have seen a lot of upheaval in marriages as a result of poly. Red Pepper has just mentioned in her blog that of the ten or so poly marriages she knew, 9 have broken up in the past 6 years. http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=297220&postcount=1930 Do you want your marriage to be one of them? Or are you that sure that your marriage is going to be the one that survives? Even with a husband who clearly does not want this? There are some very serious issues to consider about the effects of poly on your marriage, your husband, your children, and yourself, and deciding the whole and sole issue is that he's 'narrow-minded' or Christianity is bad, doesn't change that.

 

[Journeyofawakening]

Thank you for saying so.

JourneyofAwakening, if you want a little less 'conflict' on this thread, and people getting 'personal,' you might consider that this thread has had a lot of Christian-bashing going on. I glimpse at it every once in awhile and see more comments, including from you, about 'narrow minded.'

Is it 'narrow-minded' of someone to not agree with you? Does that mean you are also narrow minded, since you don't agree with them?

When someone won't even consider a differing viewpoint then yes, I see it as narrow-minded. When it rains judgement down upon you without any discussion of how you feel about anything, I see it as narrow-minded. I never said that everything that Christians believe is wrong.

I never expected him to be immediately okay with this. What I did expect was some acknowledgement that my viewpoints on several things are changing, that people are not static and I will not always be the young lady he married. I don't deny that it's painful for him. It's painful and stressful for me too. But I can't stuff down how I feel about myself anymore. I've been doing that for many years. I expected compassion and love. Not threatening to take my children away from me unless I submit.

You assume that I haven't considered him or my children, that I'm coming from a place of pure selfishness. I'm not, and I have considered them. Trust me, if I could pick an 'easy way out' it would be to stay in the church, be mono, do my duties and just crack on. I have considered that option and it would not bring me or the people around me peace or authenticity.

I don't doubt that there has been a lot of upheaval in poly marriages and it's sad to see a lot of them haven't made it in Redpeppers experience. But that's a small sample of people right? Who is to say those marriages would have 'made it' if even if they had not gone down the poly road? It's not for us to judge. Nor is it for us to judge what 'making it' in a marriage even means? I know several people who have just suffered in silence for the sake of keeping the marriage together. Regardless of their happiness. It's their choice what they do with their lives. I'm still trying to figure out what my choice should be. Hence the counselling to discuss it with my husband. My frustration comes from feeling like I don't have a choice because of my vows, the contract I made when I was a different person, and because of him not even giving me a chance or trying to understand my point of view.

Sorry for the rant but not many people on this forum actually know each other. None of you know me. You're seeing a glimpse of my life, of my frustration. And viewing my situation through your own eyes, from your own experience. I came here because I don't have anyone else who understands. I am faced with judgement from the people around me, I don't need extra judgement here. That's why I asked for less conflict.

It's hard being demonised.

 

[GalaGirl]

Hang in there until the Thursday appointment.

I agree that you could not talk to him about this outside of counseling. Just be silent and bide your time.

You both needs breaks from it, and you do not need another scene like the last time where he wigged out, went to your parents, threatened to take the kids, etc.

I hope that he is able to understand in time with a counselor's help that you are not static, that you can chanée your views.

Even if in that understanding it means you are no longer compatible for marriage to each other., you may have to disband. For me marriage vows are not just about physical "til death do us part" but spiritual death also. If you can no longer keep them in good faith, in good spirit? Then you cannot. Best to make people aware and disband while keeping integrity intact.

Galagirl

 

[MightyMax]

I was once accused of being "narrow-minded" by a person who was attempting to convince me that it is okay to have sexual relationships with minors. Sometimes, your mind can be so "open", your brain falls out.

I do not "know" anyone on this forum.

 

[InfinitePossibility]

I really hope that the counselling helps, Journey. It can be very very difficult to listen to each other when the subject is emotionally challenging. Hopefully having somebody else there to help you will be useful.

I'm not convinced that striving to be open minded is something I'd want to do. My preference would always be to strive to be reflective and questioning.

I'm totally happy to be close minded on a range of subjects. There are loads of things that I have considered and decided are not things I want in my life - some that I don't think should be in anybody's life. I choose my friends and how I spend my social time on the basis of these decisions.

When confronted with something new, I like to think about it, consider it and look for ways to decide if the new thing is something I approve of or not. My starting point tends to be that I'm happy to be convinced that something new is a good thing but will look very carefully for reasons to think otherwise. As time goes on some things gain my full and wholehearted approval and others become things I avoid having in my life. Others become things that I actively campaign against.

It's tricky, I think, when people start to grow in different directions. Not easy to keep relationships the same. This is one of the reasons I don't like marriage. The idea of people making a promise to maintain a romantic relationship with each other no matter what until one of them dies has always seemed ill advised to me. People change in unpredictable ways as they grow older and it seems sensible to imagine that relationships must change too. Yet marriage seems to insist on a lifetime of being together even if the changes in the two people mean that doing so makes at least one of the miserable.

Rather than spending the time, money and energy that folk seem to spend on a wedding, I've always thought that it would be better to make an effort to come up with a plan to dissolve the relationship as painlessly as possible if growth apart happens. Save sufficient money to be able to live apart, discuss how child care would work, decide who keeps what. That sort of thing.

IP

 

[Journeyofawakening]

I'm not convinced that striving to be open minded is something I'd want to do. My preference would always be to strive to be reflective and questioning.

I'm totally happy to be close minded on a range of subjects. There are loads of things that I have considered and decided are not things I want in my life - some that I don't think should be in anybody's life. I choose my friends and how I spend my social time on the basis of these decisions.

When confronted with something new, I like to think about it, consider it and look for ways to decide if the new thing is something I approve of or not. My starting point tends to be that I'm happy to be convinced that something new is a good thing but will look very carefully for reasons to think otherwise. As time goes on some things gain my full and wholehearted approval and others become things I avoid having in my life. Others become things that I actively campaign against.

I think we have different definitions of the phrase 'open-minded'. I see it as what you just described, not a blind-acceptance of anything and everything, but being open to new things, to take them into consideration, giving time and thought to it - regardless of whether you accept it or view it as your personal truth in the end or not. For example, my sister is different to me and believes different things but she is open minded in my eyes as she will discuss our differences without judgement.

It's tricky, I think, when people start to grow in different directions. Not easy to keep relationships the same. This is one of the reasons I don't like marriage. The idea of people making a promise to maintain a romantic relationship with each other no matter what until one of them dies has always seemed ill advised to me. People change in unpredictable ways as they grow older and it seems sensible to imagine that relationships must change too. Yet marriage seems to insist on a lifetime of being together even if the changes in the two people mean that doing so makes at least one of the miserable.

Rather than spending the time, money and energy that folk seem to spend on a wedding, I've always thought that it would be better to make an effort to come up with a plan to dissolve the relationship as painlessly as possible if growth apart happens. Save sufficient money to be able to live apart, discuss how child care would work, decide who keeps what. That sort of thing.

IP

That makes a lot of sense IP. I view many things differently as I have grown and changed, including marriage.

 

[Journeyofawakening]

To say that people should be 'open minded' and completely agree with everything I say or believe everything I believe would actually be very narrow-minded of me...!!

 

[kdt26417]

@ Journeyofawakening ... I don't think you were hoping your husband would instantly embrace poly, but you were hoping he would listen to what you had to say, and give it fair consideration. Instead, he went straight off the deep end, and as a result, you now feel like you have no choice but to pretend you're content with a traditional marriage. If I was you, I'd be deeply frustrated. Hopefully the counselor will help.

 

[Journeyofawakening]

@ Journeyofawakening ... I don't think you were hoping your husband would instantly embrace poly, but you were hoping he would listen to what you had to say, and give it fair consideration. Instead, he went straight off the deep end, and as a result, you now feel like you have no choice but to pretend you're content with a traditional marriage. If I was you, I'd be deeply frustrated. Hopefully the counselor will help.

Exactly that! But now he's pretending like nothing ever happened and talking about the fact that I chose to be exclusive with him. He's driven me to monogamy by fear of losing my kids. That's just not right is it.

 

[GalaGirl]

Nope. It isn't right.

Remember though that his stuff IS his stuff. If he's being an ostrich right now, telling himself whatever story? That's how he chooses to manage his stuff right now.

Let it/him be. Wait patiently til appointment. Spending the next few days in a "silent time out" mode rather than "more fusspot" mode seems preferable. It is not you embracing monogamy if that simply is not you any more. It is you taking a silent time out to rest and gather your thoughts.

How can we help you mange your stuff until then? I can see that you are frustrated/angry with his response/the whole situation. It's a let down to see a spouse in this light.

What are your goals for the appointment? Are they realistic/reasonable?

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from Journeyofawakening):

"He's driven me to monogamy by fear of losing my kids. That's just not right is it."

It's not right at all.

 

[Journeyofawakening]

Nope. It isn't right.

Remember though that his stuff IS his stuff. If he's being an ostrich right now, telling himself whatever story? That's how he chooses to manage his stuff right now.

Let it/him be. Wait patiently til appointment. Spending the next few days in a "silent time out" mode rather than "more fusspot" mode seems preferable. It is not you embracing monogamy if that simply is not you any more. It is you taking a silent time out to rest and gather your thoughts.

How can we help you mange your stuff until then? I can see that you are frustrated/angry with his response/the whole situation. It's a let down to see a spouse in this light.

What are your goals for the appointment? Are they realistic/reasonable?

Galagirl

I tried to keep my mouth shut but didn't manage it. Resulted in an argument of him shouting at me that he'll never be okay with anything but monogamy and me shouting at him that he can never take my kids away from me. Not good. We are both struggling to express ourselves so that is what I'm hoping from counselling. Just a safe place where we can discuss what is going on. I just want him to listen to me. I just want him to know that I'm not doing this because I don't love him, and I'm not being this way because I want to be difficult.

Really I just need reassurance that I'm not a bad person for being polyamorous. I've been told I shouldn't act the victim, and I'm trying not to because I know I've gone about things the wrong way. But at the same time, this time of change and realisation has been hard on me too.

 

[AwareManNYC]

What's in it for your husband?

I'm going through something similar right now with my wife. We have a marriage that is open emotionally. I am able to have real relationships with other women that mean a lot to me. She is fine with that because it makes me happy and allows me to share parts of myself with others with which we don't really easily connect.

By the end of the year, I want to open our relationship sexually as well. I'm sure this will be a big step for my wife, but I think that she will ultimately support it for the same reasons she supports our emotionally open relationship.

But I am not taking this for granted. I'm assuming that this will be hard for her. The question I'm asking is what is in it for her besides supporting my happiness? I've been thinking, "Is there some other aspect of our relationship in which she would like some changes?"

So, you might consider the larger picture. How can the transition to poly become a victory for your husband, not something that is humiliating?

 

[bassman]

I tried to keep my mouth shut but didn't manage it. Resulted in an argument of him shouting at me that he'll never be okay with anything but monogamy and me shouting at him that he can never take my kids away from me. Not good. We are both struggling to express ourselves so that is what I'm hoping from counselling. Just a safe place where we can discuss what is going on. I just want him to listen to me. I just want him to know that I'm not doing this because I don't love him, and I'm not being this way because I want to be difficult.

Really I just need reassurance that I'm not a bad person for being polyamorous. I've been told I shouldn't act the victim, and I'm trying not to because I know I've gone about things the wrong way. But at the same time, this time of change and realisation has been hard on me too.

like!

 

[FallenAngelina]

Really I just need reassurance that I'm not a bad person for being polyamorous. I've been told I shouldn't act the victim, and I'm trying not to because I know I've gone about things the wrong way. But at the same time, this time of change and realisation has been hard on me too.

The more at ease you are in your own identity, the less you need anyone to assure you that you're OK and that just takes time and practice. As you come along in your confidence (which you are, helped by more appreciative friends and community) you'll see your own acceptance of yourself reflected in others. Either people will accept you or they will fade away from your everyday life, but the harsh judgement won't be "out there" in your everyday experience because it will not be in you. There is no way anyone can heap judgement upon you that you do not feel for yourself, so the long lasting way to deal with others' judgement that you're "bad" for being poly is to work on embracing your own view of what it means to be poly. People can offer supportive words here and there, but real and lasting reassurance will come from your own heart and bring with it a constant, true, infinite wellspring of well being. Nobody gives that to you. Nobody takes that from you. Your fruitful, peaceful poly life will grow out of your own inner peace and will be independent of every other person's understanding or approval. The more appreciation you offer yourself, the more you'll find people who mirror this appreciation.

The more you can find support and understanding from another community and from your own thoughts, the less you need your husband to be what he cannot be for you right now. It's possible to stay together as very different people (this describes my own marriage) but the individuals must be quite centered and not emotionally in need of the other's approval - for anything. After awhile, you and your husband can find your way to stability based on mutual appreciation and no need for the other to be any particular way. That means that he won't need you to live as you once did, pledged to him and only him, and you won't need him to understand what he cannot understand. When I needed my husband to understand my new poly perspective, things were very difficult in our marriage. When I decided to back off and allow him to go through whatever he was going through and stopped asking him to understand me, our marriage took a surprising turn for the better. I had to be the change I wanted from him (more freedom) and when I changed, the relationship changed. The more you require understanding from your husband, the more you create a push-pull. When you let go and allow him to be wherever he is with all of this, the tension releases and the relationship improves. None of this requires a verbal "sit down," it's all achievable by changes you make in your own heart. Good discussions might come of the improved relationship, but an improved relationship won't start by negotiating, but by your letting go of the particulars (including the worry over the children) and by allowing your husband to be separate, different and just where he is. That's how things will move along in a more desired way.

 

[GalaGirl]

You are not a bad person for being polyamorous. I can reassure you.

Are you seeking that reassurance from a husband who cannot give it at this time? Are you able to reassure yourself? Who do you need this reassurance from most?

This can happen in counseling. A counselor can help provide that setting:

Just a safe place where we can discuss what is going on.

This could happen. Because this is your behavior: you talking. You can say all these things.

I just want him to know that I'm not doing this because I don't love him, and I'm not being this way because I want to be difficult.

This might not happen. His willingness to listen is up to him and if he just is not, he is not.

I just want him to listen to me.

I suggest you hope for the best, but prepare for non-listening.

I've been told I shouldn't act the victim.

He says this? What does it mean? That he feels vicitmized? Or that he sees you hurting and he does not want to see it? Do not ask him now. Ask in counseling.

But at the same time, this time of change and realisation has been hard on me too.

Yes it has. You sound like you want him to acknowledge this. Perhaps counseling is where you ask if he is willing to acknowledge that.

Try not to get into it again outside of counseling. Be silent til the appointment. I think you need rest more than you need another fusspot. That kind of thing gets draining.

I know it is not easy right now.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Sorry to hear about that argument JOA. I guess at least your husband knows you're not just caving in.

As for what he "gets out of poly," he can ask for that himself based on what areas you can bend on. That would not include you going back to church.