How do you feel secure in non-hierarchical relationships?

Brightstars

New member
Hi guys, I'm new here and I appreciate the supportive environment you have. I'm also pretty new, or newly returning, to polyamory (I was poly for a year a long time ago, but I was young and a lot of things went badly).

I'm suffering right now as my "main" partner begins dating someone new. (We've only been together for a few months) He's very kind and honest and patient, but he doesn't believe in hierarchy and isn't willing to give any guarantees about how this will or won't effect our relationship.

I respect the honesty and the appreciation for everyone's autonomy, but I just feel so crushingly un-special and not-secure in the relationship (very aware that this is connected to my insides and my history).

I understand why a lot of people don't like hierarchy, in that it often isn't respectful towards new relationships, but how do you possibly feel secure in your relationships without it?

Sometimes I can find a place where I feel centered and I feel like everything is okay, and that I could just allow things to happen naturally and not try to control anything, but right now I just feel like...how can I possibly allow myself to feel so close to him, and rely on him, and be in love with him, and trust that he's going to be there, when there is this huge unknown variable looming, and someone who is likely to want increasing amounts of his time and energy? It seems like emotional distance is the only way to not be hurt, but I'm not good at that and don't enjoy it.

So anyway, I'm very curious about your own personal experience of how you feel secure and close and bonded when you're in non-hierarchical relationships.

Thank you <3
 
I understand why a lot of people don't like hierarchy, in that it often isn't respectful towards new relationships, but how do you possibly feel secure in your relationships without it?

(snip)

...how can I possibly allow myself to feel so close to him, and rely on him, and be in love with him, and trust that he's going to be there, when there is this huge unknown variable looming, and someone who is likely to want increasing amounts of his time and energy?
I'm solo poly, so my answers will differ from those of someone in a kitchen-table arrangement. In my case? I feel close to my partners because I can rely on them and trust that they'll be there when I need them. Those qualities are part of what attracted me to them in the first place and I don't need to be the centre of their universes to feel secure in that. Additionally, if it suddenly turned out that I was completely wrong about all of them and they simultaneously dumped me, then I'd crawl into a hole for a while and cry, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. I live alone, I'm not financially dependant on any of them, and I can look after myself. Partners are a luxurious enjoyment, not a necessity of life. I am—as people here taught me to put it—"my own primary".

Edit: I may not be answering the right question here. By "in a hierarchical relationship", do you mean "primary partner in a hierarchical relationship", or would you be just as comfortable in a secondary role?
 
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To me, being non-hierarchical does not mean everything is up in the air all the time. That would be something of a red flag if someone told me that.

My version of non-hierarchical means nothing would change, except for my schedule. That makes me feel very secure.
 
I'm suffering right now as my "main" partner begins dating someone new. (We've only been together for a few months) He's very kind and honest and patient, but he doesn't believe in hierarchy and isn't willing to give any guarantees about how this will or won't effect our relationship.

If you're suffering, then what is going on isn't right for you. You need to discuss more and figure out a comfort zone.

I fail to see what hierarchy has to do with security in a relationship. If you don't know where you stand, that is him stringing you along by not giving to your relationship in proportion to (both) your involvement, not a lack of hierarchy. He may not prioritize you or anyone else over another, but that doesn't mean he has no idea what he's willing to commit to your relationship. That is between the two of you and irrelevant to hierarchy.

I respect the honesty and the appreciation for everyone's autonomy, but I just feel so crushingly un-special and not-secure in the relationship (very aware that this is connected to my insides and my history).

If you're feeling un-special and not-secure, then there is a problem in the relationship between two of you. This would come from entitled sort of behavior that takes you for granted rather than what he is up to with others. A lack of hierarchy doesn't mean all your partners can't expect anything from you. It simply means you don't put one relationship higher than others with respect to your involvement.

I understand why a lot of people don't like hierarchy, in that it often isn't respectful towards new relationships, but how do you possibly feel secure in your relationships without it?

No comment. I think people being individuals and different, there is always some sort of practical hierarchy that will play out - whether explicitly acknowledged or not. At best, I suspect people who say they don't like hierarchy are saying that they value all their partners and would not allow one undue rights to impose their wishes on another.

Sometimes I can find a place where I feel centered and I feel like everything is okay, and that I could just allow things to happen naturally and not try to control anything, but right now I just feel like...how can I possibly allow myself to feel so close to him, and rely on him, and be in love with him, and trust that he's going to be there, when there is this huge unknown variable looming, and someone who is likely to want increasing amounts of his time and energy? It seems like emotional distance is the only way to not be hurt, but I'm not good at that and don't enjoy it.

I'd recommend distancing yourself till you see a reciprocal commitment. Overinvesting emotions in a partner who doesn't reciprocate is a recipe for heartbreak.
 
Y'all need to talk about what your relationship means and what level of commitment you can expect. You're conflating the lack of prescribed hierarchy with your general sense of insecurity and uncertainty in your relationship. As others have said, this has nothing to do with hierarchy and everything to do with a lack of communication.
 
... I respect the honesty and the appreciation for everyone's autonomy, but I just feel so crushingly un-special and not-secure in the relationship (very aware that this is connected to my insides and my history) ...

At least you are aware of the reasons that come from your history as to why you feel the way you do. The thing to do now is to focus on making what's gone on in the past irrelevant to how you feel now. The first step is to realize that the truth about all relationships is that they can form and dissolve whether we want them to or not, and that in the end, the only common denominator is you.

Therefore being able to accept the love that comes into your life so that you can feel loved when it's there, and to give the love you have to those in your life now, are the best any of us can do. When these other feelings come into play they can act as barriers for that wonderfulness. Ideally, additions to your poly relationship should add to your feelings of being special because the new person offers you a new opportunity to become special to each other. But it doesn't always work the way it's supposed to.

So my fall-back to letting feelings of insecurity or inadequacy go ( for me ) is to feel wonderful enough just being me, to find joy sharing in other's new experiences, and to know I'm free to follow my heart wherever it may lead. So if you want to feel special in somebody's eyes besides your own, and the people in your relationship aren't doing that for you, there's nothing wrong with getting out there and finding it for yourself. After all it is a poly relationship so nobody should have a problem with that, and if they do, well, then the shoes on the other foot ;-)
 
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Hi guys, I'm new here and I appreciate the supportive environment you have. I'm also pretty new, or newly returning, to polyamory (I was poly for a year a long time ago, but I was young and a lot of things went badly).

I'm suffering right now as my "main" partner begins dating someone new. (We've only been together for a few months) He's very kind and honest and patient, but he doesn't believe in hierarchy and isn't willing to give any guarantees about how this will or won't effect our relationship.

I respect the honesty and the appreciation for everyone's autonomy, but I just feel so crushingly un-special and not-secure in the relationship (very aware that this is connected to my insides and my history).

It could be partly your history, but it also could be that you're new to polyamory and that this relationship with your "main" partner is only of a few months duration.

So, you might be "in love," but that's an illusion. NRE makes it so we put our best foot forward for a while. After a few months, the mask starts to slip. The hormones of NRE die down. Sometimes NRE ends for one person before it ends for the other. Sometimes a deeper truer love develops after NRE fades. Sometimes the relationship ends, as it was built on sand/illusions.

You really don't know this guy well. (Unless you were friends for years first?) You don't know how good of a hinge he will be when in NRE with his new prospect. So it's understandable you'd be insecure.

On the other hand, he may be exhibiting some sketchy behavior that makes you feel insecure. If he's being a poor hinge and gushing too much about New and Shiny, or is no longer dating you or cuddling you or fucking your brains out, or coming home when he says he will, or texting you less, or reassuring you with loving caring words, it's not past problems you've got to overcome, it's present ones.
I understand why a lot of people don't like hierarchy, in that it often isn't respectful towards new relationships, but how do you possibly feel secure in your relationships without it?

Sometimes I can find a place where I feel centered and I feel like everything is okay, and that I could just allow things to happen naturally and not try to control anything, but right now I just feel like...how can I possibly allow myself to feel so close to him, and rely on him, and be in love with him, and trust that he's going to be there, when there is this huge unknown variable looming, and someone who is likely to want increasing amounts of his time and energy? It seems like emotional distance is the only way to not be hurt, but I'm not good at that and don't enjoy it.

So anyway, I'm very curious about your own personal experience of how you feel secure and close and bonded when you're in non-hierarchical relationships.

Thank you <3

You do need to pull back and observe his behaviors. You also need to state your needs and desires in a relationship, and see if he is willing and able to provide them.

And I think you should stop thinking of him as your "main partner." Maybe? See how he acts, see if he is worthy of being depended upon.
 
I respect the honesty and the appreciation for everyone's autonomy, but I just feel so crushingly un-special and not-secure in the relationship (very aware that this is connected to my insides and my history).

Are you sure it isn't also connected to only dating this partner a few months? :confused:

After a only a few months of dating he is already "main partner" rather than "dating partner?" How come?

Why do you feel "unspecial" if you do not have insta-committment from a partner of a few months? Are your expectations realistic?

How do you possibly feel secure in your relationships without it?

Because I've been with my partner for decades. He has a Word. If he says he's gonna do/not do something? I believe him at his Word because he has a long track record of integrity. My trust in him and his Word is well founded and covers a large area. It would have to be some sort of emergency or accident or something for him not to follow through on something. Be it a small thing like "Don't forget to get the milk on the way home" to bigger things in our shared life.

And because I can live without him. I don't need him. Because I do not derive my security from him being around. I *ENJOY* him being around immensely but I know I can make it on my own and stand on my own two feet without him if I have to. That is what makes me feel secure -- my confidence in my own abilities and skills.

I do not take this relationship for granted and I know it exists because we continually choose to be together. If one of us changes their mind and chooses not to do it any more? Then it ends.

But what holds me together then is MY ability to stand on my own. And in that I am confident I can. So the idea of this ending doesn't send me into a spaz. I'd be sad, but not the same kind of sad like they used to be when I was a young adult.

I'm also older -- I've had many relationships of many kinds end -- death of a parent or other significant relative, significant friendship ending due to moving away, breaking up with a significant dating partner... endings don't bother me all that much any more. Been there, done that, I know I have experience and resilience to endure them. Perhaps that part of it too.

right now I just feel like...how can I possibly allow myself to feel so close to him, and rely on him, and be in love with him, and trust that he's going to be there, when there is this huge unknown variable looming, and someone who is likely to want increasing amounts of his time and energy?

If it feels yucky to jump in so fast.... Why do you that then?

It seems premature. Esp if you have only been dating him for a few months. You don't know how reliable his Word is yet, you have no real sense of his skills and abilities, and he's not making any promises either. So... why rush to put all your eggs in that basket so fast at this time?

Are you trying to "prove" your side of "insta-committment" so he will hurry up and do it to? :confused:

This dating situation is still pretty new and you aren't sure what it is yet. And then you seem to pile things on it too early. What is it you expect from a dating partner of only a few months? The same things as a partner of a year? Two years? A spouse?

After a few months of knowing him you are ready to call it "In Love?" Why so fast? Why not "Like Him A Lot" instead?

If you want to start building trust, rely on him for small stuff to start out with. Not big stuff. Like rely on him to bring the wine to dinner. Small.

Rely on yourself, your family, and your other friends for heavy stuff in the meanwhile. Not some new dating partner of only a few months. Build up slower so you can feel more stable/secure during the bonding process.

And not rush in/jump in so the bonding process feels unstable/not secure like you are trying to balance too many eggs into a tiny basket.

Be willing to spend some time growing the basket first. Then maybe it will feel better to you when you try to put eggs in there. Less precarious.

Does that make sense?

Galagirl
 
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Hi Brightstars,

I think the main key here is, can you trust your partner? If you can, then you know that your relationship with him is safe. Do you love him? Do you trust him?

The other thing is, not everyone is wired for a nonhierarchical relationship. If you are wired for hierarchy, then you are in the wrong kind of relationship for you. And should think about breaking up with your current partner. It's okay to be wired for hierarchy, really it is. It's just a compatibility issue.

Not that you need to be in a hurry to draw any conclusions, or make any big decisions ... Like you said, you've only been together for a few months. Give yourself some time to get to know this guy better. So that you'll know whether you can trust him.

I hope that helps,
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Hi Brightstars,

I think the main key here is, can you trust your partner? If you can, then you know that your relationship with him is safe. Do you love him? Do you trust him?

The other thing is, not everyone is wired for a nonhierarchical relationship. If you are wired for hierarchy, then you are in the wrong kind of relationship for you. And should think about breaking up with your current partner. It's okay to be wired for hierarchy, really it is. It's just a compatibility issue.

Not that you need to be in a hurry to draw any conclusions, or make any big decisions ... Like you said, you've only been together for a few months. Give yourself some time to get to know this guy better. So that you'll know whether you can trust him.

I hope that helps,
Sincerely,
Kevin T.


Fab advice. I'd add a thought here though. When we say people are "wired" one way or another, we need to differentiate between the wiring we're encoded with on a genetic level and the wiring that corresponds to socialization and social conditioning. The former we can do very little about ( at present ). The latter we can do a lot about. Neuroplasticity facilitates re-wiring ourselves to become more the way we want to be. So it's not all written in stone, and some forms of programming can fairly be argued to be better or worse than other ways, including various kinds of hierarchies.
 
Y'all need to talk about what your relationship means and what level of commitment you can expect. You're conflating the lack of prescribed hierarchy with your general sense of insecurity and uncertainty in your relationship. As others have said, this has nothing to do with hierarchy and everything to do with a lack of communication.
^^^ I agree with this one-hundred-percent. You ought to talk about your feelings to your “main” partner, as you put it, so you can both have a solid understanding of your relationship with each other and where it’s at.

So anyway, I'm very curious about your own personal experience of how you feel secure and close and bonded when you're in non-hierarchical relationships.

Thank you <3

I’m also new to poly but I’ll share my experience. I’m in a closed triad with two other people. In our minds we have what’s essentially a traditional relationship but with three equal partners instead of two. In the beginning I had a lot of insecurity due to my lack of relationship experience in general and I didn’t really know what to expect. At first I bottled it up and tried to just “get over it” but that method never works out too well for me. I learned how to express to my partners when I was feeling insecure about something and they always reassured me and we worked it out together. Now I’m in a very secure place where I feel loved and appreciated, but it was a place that took time and a LOT of communication to get to in order to ensure everyone was on the same page.

We’ve learned a lot and grown a lot in the few months we’ve been official. Communication was a huge part of that, and I know people say over and over that communication is crucial, but it really is. Lack of communication in any kind of relationship will definitely take its toll, so be sure that you and your partner are making clear, honest communication a priority.
 
Thank you all

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful responses. I've been reading and re-reading the things you all wrote, and wondering about them. They've given me a lot of insights.

It's definitely true that I bonded too deeply, too fast, as I tend to do. That was greatly encouraged because he supported me through a very hard and scary thing at the very beginning of our relationship (I began family therapy with my mother, beginning to confront her about things from my childhood, which threatens the bond of attachment with her and brings up terror.) He offered to cuddle me and listen to me after my sessions with her, and I felt so safe and cared for with him, I think it made me transfer that bond of attachment onto him. That makes him feel central to my sense of safety and belonging in the world. My family aren't really there for me, and I do have some great friends, but we don't cuddle and get so intimate in the way that is so soothing with him.

I've been thinking about this a lot, and how it set me up for a lot of fear, because it's true, I don't actually know him so well. I felt like I did, because we did a lot of deep sharing right from the beginning…It felt so natural and easy and safe to talk to him. But I'm definitely not feeling safe now that he is starting this other relationship, and leaving me in this undefined place that I don't feel like I can trust and relax into.

I've been slowly un-investing some of that energy from him, and it's making me feel a lot better, more empowered, more present in my own life. I get confused when I'm in his presence, though, because I'm used to us both being sooo cuddly and loving, and I don't really understand how to do that without getting sucked right back into this kind of overly-attached "love".

Ugh I don't know. They had their first kiss last Friday, and I have not felt okay when I'm around him since then. I just end up crying a lot. I feel OK when I'm on my own, though. I have been really focusing on a lot of my own pursuits, and that feels really good.

There's a lot to the story, and I don't know if I am writing too much already, but I am finding myself doubting whether I can actually handle polyamory. Whenever he tells me he's going to be seeing her, I feel very unwell in my body. I don't even find her particularly threatening as a person, but just the thought of them together makes me feel sick, or cold, or angry, or all of the above.

I think it all just comes down to a need to feel safe and secure in the relationship with him, which I am not getting. It's confusing because he tells me he loves me, wants to be a big part of my life, wants to be with me long-term, holds me, listens to my feelings without judgement...all these things make me feel like it "should" be fine. But he also says that he can't guarantee how much time he'll spend with me on a regular basis, he needs it to be flexible, he needs a lot of alone time, and also wants to be there for any close friend or partner who needs him, and refuses to prioritize. And I know that this woman he's seeing is about to go through a big life transition where she's likely to "need" him more.

Honestly, I just can't deal with the thought of someone else being prioritized by him over myself and my emotional needs. The inner child in me feels like she's going to fall apart at that. I thought we were going to keep getting closer and more a part of each other's lives, and lately I feel like he's putting a limit on that. Especially when he has limited social energy and is adding another person.

Lately I've been thinking that what I want is for respect and priority to be given to the fact that we have already bonded in a deep way. Not that the two of them can't or won't, too, but they haven't yet, so it just feels natural to me to care for this connection first. I have been doing that for him, and I feel resentful about it now. I don't know if he realized or if it mattered to him, but I have been putting him first. Now we keep having scheduling conflicts with her, and I feel angry that he doesn't check with me, first.

I was fine being secondary to someone else, but I wasn't really in love with him, and I entered into the situation knowing that he had been with his primary partner for many years. I was very respectful of her coming first, it made sense to me. I recently broke up with him, though, because I realized he was a bit coercive, and that was effecting me badly. Anyway, sorry if this was more than you were ready to read.

I'm just wondering a lot about attachment theory and polyamory and how the two work together. I know that I tend to need one or two main people that I bond with very deeply, and I want to prioritize those connections, and have them prioritize me. That's what makes me feel safe in the world. If I had better relationships with my family, I'd be in a better situation, but they are a bit toxic. I think that his flexible and not-so-focused way of attaching is just bound to make me crazy. It's just weird because he tells me he loves me so much, and I feel confused.

Anyway, I probably need to get more distance from him. It's very hard. He feels like home. I've been through this before, though.

Thanks again. Definitely open to further input.
 
Might be that you can handle polyamory with other people who don't behave like this:

  • It's confusing because he tells me he loves me, wants to be a big part of my life, wants to be with me long-term, holds me, listens to my feelings without judgement...all these things make me feel like it "should" be fine.

  • But he also says that he can't guarantee how much time he'll spend with me on a regular basis, he needs it to be flexible, he needs a lot of alone time, and also wants to be there for any close friend or partner who needs him, and refuses to prioritize. And I know that this woman he's seeing is about to go through a big life transition where she's likely to "need" him more.

But you cannot handle polyamory with HIM behaving like that.

He's flip-flopping so you don't know what to believe. That he's going to be there for you WHILE exploring this other thing or he's just gonna neglect you in favor of this other thing.

To me it sounds like he wants to get stuff from his partners like attention and loving or someone to love on when HE feels like loving on them... but he wants HIS options open and nobody expecting anything from him.

I thought we were going to keep getting closer and more a part of each other's lives, and lately I feel like he's putting a limit on that. Especially when he has limited social energy and is adding another person.

To me it sounds like he was paving the way to keep getting access to you/stuff from you/attention from you... while not investing as much any more. Because you were already "hooked" and now he's gonna be busy "hooking" this other person. Like none of you are real people. Just faucets of attention supply and he wants to collect as many faucets possible.

I recently broke up with him, though, because I realized he was a bit coercive, and that was effecting me badly.

No break up is fun, but I think in this case it is for the best. You weren't happy in this relationship.

I don't know if he realized or if it mattered to him, but I have been putting him first.

You have to put YOU first. Not in a selfish "me me me" way but in a "Am I taking care of myself? Am I the healthiest me here?" way. Then you can gift your help to others in meeting their needs and work from a full tank of gas. If you are putting them first while wearing yourself out or ignoring your own self care? That's not good. I'm glad you decided to stop doing that.

I think that his flexible and not-so-focused way of attaching is just bound to make me crazy. It's just weird because he tells me he loves me so much, and I feel confused.

Some people say "I love you so much" when they mean "I love (the stuff I get from) you so much." In the end if his style of loving or communicating makes you feel crazy/upset it just isn't compatible and best to not date him.

Hang in there as you heal from the break up.

GL!
Galagirl
 
Bari stables

Thank you so much, Galagirl, your post is really validating, and it's helping me feel like I'm making the right decision.

I realized that I created some confusion with the paragraph beginning with "I was fine being a secondary to someone else..." that was about a different relationship with a different person. I was trying to demonstrate myself as a reasonable person XD. Not necessary, I'll take it out if I can figure out how.

So I haven't broken up with the person in question yet, but I probably am going to today.

This is one of the better relationships that I've had, but my standards keep going up, and they need to continue doing so.

Thank you so much for your support.
 
Thank you so much for your support.


Most welcome.

I realized that I created some confusion with the paragraph beginning with "I was fine being a secondary to someone else..." that was about a different relationship with a different person.

That's why I said you might be fine doing poly with other people, but not THIS guy who behaves this way.


So I haven't broken up with the person in question yet, but I probably am going to today.

Then I hope it goes fast and your healing time from the break up is restorative. It doesn't sound like this is a compatible thing if you end up feeling crazy or upset after interactions with him. I do think you are making the right decision in letting this one go.

my standards keep going up, and they need to continue doing so

Having high personal standards for who you will and will not allow yourself to pal around with or date and so on? Spares you a lot of shenanigans.

It's tough when someone who used to make the cut no longer does. But that's not your doing -- that's their behavior falling down and becoming unacceptable. If you talk to them and the poor behavior stays that way? All you can do is step away and take yourself out of the line of fire so you don't get dinged by their poor behavior any more.

Galagirl
 
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Might be that you can handle polyamory with other people who don't behave like this:

  • It's confusing because he tells me he loves me, wants to be a big part of my life, wants to be with me long-term, holds me, listens to my feelings without judgement...all these things make me feel like it "should" be fine.

  • But he also says that he can't guarantee how much time he'll spend with me on a regular basis, he needs it to be flexible, he needs a lot of alone time, and also wants to be there for any close friend or partner who needs him, and refuses to prioritize.

I suppose it's sort of a moot point if y'all are breaking up - and I am sorry for that - but I did want to point out that Galagirl's two bullet points are not, for two people that both approach relationships this way, contradictory. Someone can be a huge part of your life, a loved one that you hold and listen to and are there for... while you're still flexible about exactly what the time commitment and priorities are for that relationship. It's not, necessarily, flip-flopping, merely saying "hey, life changes around us sometimes and we need to bend with that".
 
Over here we call that "Pencil, then ink." Like I will make plans with someone and we will pencil the date and plan to be there. But also call to check that is still good when the date actually comes close -- like a day or two before. To "ink it" on the calendar.

I get the need to be flexible. Childcare falls through or people get sick or whatever.

But combined with the other stuff I didn't get the vibe he was approaching it that way. Make plans, but remain flexible about it. It's like he didn't want to make any plans at all.

I don't see how someone can be a big part of my life if I don't spend any time with them any more.

Galagirl
 
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Poly people do require partners who are independent and not co-dependent. You might not like dating poly people.

If you want a guaranteed Saturday night date, or meet the parents, or a live-in partner, or a baby daddy, who is also a bread winner, or anything else on the "relationship escalator" (google that), you might not want a poly partner. If what you mean by "being more and more bonded" means riding the escalator to the top, living together, marriage, kids, death do you part, you may not get that from a poly partner.

You may. But you may not. You may have to get off at vacuum cleaners instead of ladies' lingerie (to use an escalator metaphor). Of course, you may not get the full escalator from a mono person either, since mono relationships can and do end before you ride completely to the top.

But if he's not being good about scheduling properly, that is bad poly.
 
Hello BrightStars.

I'm non-hierarchical / relationship anarchist.
Non-hierarchical poly is terrifying, and I feel your pain.

I would advise you just to hang in there. In my experience, the way you feel secure is, you keep doing it. Security grows over time, as you stick it out and realize that the relationship hasn't ended because your partner wants you around. It gets better with time.

Also, realize that security itself is an illusion. Everything is always changing, and no relationship is ever truly "secure." Even in a monogamous arrangement, or a hierarchical poly one, your partner could meet someone new, lose interest in you, move away, get hit by a bus - anything could happen today or tomorrow. Relationships are precious. Try to appreciate what you have while you have it, and to accept that you might not have it tomorrow.

It might not feel like it without all the usual signposts and labels in place, but your partner wouldn't be with you if he didn't value you as a unique being. You ARE special. You are you, and no one else is quite like you.

Franklin Veaux's "More Than Two" is a good resource.
 
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