How Should Poly Lesbians Handle Bisexual Partners Who Want Men In The Mix?

PurpleSun

PurpleSun

New member
Hi all,

Was just having a discussion with a friend who also a polyamorous lesbian. We were just shooting the breeze and having middle of the night cocktails, discussing my recent break-up, and we got on the subject of lesbian poly relationships.

Now, it is, by and large, frowned upon when lesbians won't date non-monosexual queer women. It re-enforces harmful stereotypes about bisexual women leaving lesbians for men, etc. However, what happens when that lesbian is polyamorous, and a bisexual partner wants men in the mix?

As someone who has never been with a man and is actively repulsed by the idea, I don't think I could handle it. Luckily, every poly set up I have been in has been exclusively lesbian, so it has always been a moot point. But, what if a partner happened to be bisexual?

In the past, I have had bi and pan partners, but those situations ended prior to, or soon after, opening things up. I had always dreaded their being with men, because the very idea is just this huge turn off to me. In fact, one partner described some dude's penis in detail to me and I literally gagged. You get the idea.

So, to that end, should poly lesbians keep our relationships exclusively lesbian if we have a huge aversion to men on a sexual level? Is it fair to do something like this? Is it even morally okay, no matter if the reason is seen as valid?
 
I’ve never quite been in your situation—my female partners and I have all been bi- or pansexual, and oftentimes preferred our additional relationships to have some gender diversity—but it seems to me that this would be a reasonable use of parallel poly. Not a complete ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’—I imagine that knowing the fact of a male partner’s existence would be preferable, having his contact info for emergencies and whatnot, just.... no details preferred, not being asked to meet him or interact with him socially. Seems to me like a considerate partner could respect your boundaries around not bringing too much male energy into your space, and manage her relationships separately... and of course your part would be to not ‘yuck her yum’ too forcefully or make her feel bad for wanting things you didn’t... with the right people, it seems like it could work.
 
sunray said:
I’ve never quite been in your situation—my female partners and I have all been bi- or pansexual, and oftentimes preferred our additional relationships to have some gender diversity—but it seems to me that this would be a reasonable use of parallel poly. Not a complete ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’—I imagine that knowing the fact of a male partner’s existence would be preferable, having his contact info for emergencies and whatnot, just.... no details preferred, not being asked to meet him or interact with him socially. Seems to me like a considerate partner could respect your boundaries around not bringing too much male energy into your space, and manage her relationships separately... and of course your part would be to not ‘yuck her yum’ too forcefully or make her feel bad for wanting things you didn’t... with the right people, it seems like it could work.
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Thank you for this response. This is a fair way to look at it. There are many men in my life who I Admire greatly. But I do not, under any circumstances, want to engage with a man in any partner type situation, no matter said situation.
 
PurpleSun said:
Hi all,

Was just having a discussion with a friend who also a polyamorous lesbian. We were just shooting the breeze and having middle of the night cocktails, discussing my recent break-up, and we got on the subject of lesbian poly relationships.

Now, it is, by and large, frowned upon when lesbians won't date non-monosexual queer women. It re-enforces harmful stereotypes about bisexual women leaving lesbians for men, etc. However, what happens when that lesbian is polyamorous, and a bisexual partner wants men in the mix?

As someone who has never been with a man and is actively repulsed by the idea, I don't think I could handle it. Luckily, every poly set up I have been in has been exclusively lesbian, so it has always been a moot point. But, what if a partner happened to be bisexual?

In the past, I have had bi and pan partners, but those situations ended prior to, or soon after, opening things up. I had always dreaded their being with men, because the very idea is just this huge turn off to me. In fact, one partner described some dude's penis in detail to me and I literally gagged. You get the idea.

So, to that end, should poly lesbians keep our relationships exclusively lesbian if we have a huge aversion to men on a sexual level? Is it fair to do something like this? Is it even morally okay, no matter if the reason is seen as valid?
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What about dating a bi woman who is with a man implies that you have to interact with the man at all?

It seems like you're operating under the assumption that being with a woman means you have to be with (in any sense) someone else she's dating, but it doesn't have to be a triad to be a healthy relationship.

As in all things, proper and timely communication would allow the two of you to set boundaries.
 
If you can't stomach even the thought that your partner might be having sex with a man, don't date women who have sex with men.

Some people will say you're being bi-phobic. Some people will throw transgender people into the mix: "So you can't stand them dating a man, but what about a trans woman who hasn't had bottom surgery and therefore still has a penis? What about a trans man who hasn't had gender-affirming surgery and therefore still has a vagina, but, well, they're a man?" And if you say you wouldn't be able to tolerate that either, you'll be accused of being trans-phobic.

There's no way to make everyone happy or accepting of how you choose to run your relationship life. And at the end of the day, the only person whose opinion matters is yours. If you have such a visceral reaction against being involved with someone whose other partner has a penis, don't be involved with someone whose other partner has a penis.

As others have said, just because your partner is dating someone doesn't mean you have to have anything to do with that person. But it sounds, from your OP, like your problem isn't whether or not you have to interact with their partner; it extends to severe revulsion at even the thought that your partner might be touching a penis at some point. So keeping in mind that you wouldn't have to interact with their other partner is probably not going to be helpful to you; even if you aren't interacting with him, and even if your partner isn't giving you details, you will still know that she's involved with a penis-haver, and it sounds like that knowledge alone is enough to cause issues for you.

You ask if it's morally okay not to date someone who might be or become involved with a man. You're the only one who can answer that, because morals are subjective. For a whole lot of people, it isn't morally okay to date more than one person, but for most of us here on this board, it is. So based on YOUR morals and YOUR ethics, is it okay for YOU not to date women who aren't lesbian? Because it's YOUR life, and so your opinion is the only one that ultimately matters.
 
As someone who has never been with a man and is actively repulsed by the idea, I don't think I could handle it.
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And that's ok. You are allowed to have your own opinions and preferences and to respect your own personal limits.

So, to that end, should poly lesbians keep our relationships exclusively lesbian if we have a huge aversion to men, on a sexual level? Is it fair to do something like this? Is it even morally okay, no matter if the reason is seen as valid?
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I think you could stop generalizing and own this preference. Then it becomes:

"Should I keep my relationships exclusively lesbian if I have a huge aversion to men on a sexual level? Is it fair to do something like this? Is it even morally ok, no matter if the reason is seen as valid?"

Then the answer becomes clearer. YES, it's ok.

You don't want to be in poly networks with men in it... so don't be. YOU are in charge of your consent and what you choose to participate in or not participate in. Presumably this choice is in alignment with your morals/ethics and with your preferences.

You do not have to worry about your dating choices meeting someone else's morals/ethics/preferences. They are not you.

The unspoken thing you seem to be worried about seems to be, "I'm worried that if I won't date non-monosexual queer women I am perpetuating harmful stereotypes about bisexual women leaving lesbians for men."

Is that it?

Galagirl
 
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I know some people do feel this is an expression of biphobia. I think it can be. I also know it is understandable. I would be concerned that a partner who cares this much about who I date will have other issues accepting my additional relationships. Saying that, i know people who just dont want to be near men. Red flag but not a dealbreaker.
 
First of all, I think refusing to date bi women because you are afraid they will leave you for a man is a different thing than refusing to date bi women because you don’t feel comfortable with sleeping with someone who is concurrently sleeping with men. So I wouldn’t conflate the two.

That said, as a mostly-straight woman whose partners are queer/pansexual, I don’t totally understand your aversion. For example, I have a huge aversion to anal sex for myself, but I don’t care if my partners have anal sex with each other, or with their other partners. So it seems a little odd to me that you are so grossed out by the idea of your partners having penis sex, just because you don’t want that for yourself. But I suppose there are things that are turn-offs for me about things that my other partners might do with someone else. (Like one-night stands-- I don’t care if it’s with a man or a woman, it grosses me out to think of my partners engaging in sex with someone they don’t care about).) So I understand where you are coming from.

To each their own. No bi person wants to be with a monosexual person who is grossed out or made uncomfortable by their other relationships. So if you want to examine and challenge your negative feelings about male sexuality, then I think that is a worthy endeavor, IF you want to extend your dating pool to bisexual women (in the same way that I am examining what makes me so uncomfortable about my partners being willing to engage in safe, consensual sexual encounters with someone they don’t have an ongoing relationship with). However, if you choose to simply acknowledge your aversion and only date lesbian women, I think that is okay too.

ETA: I also think it is more than okay to tell a partner you don’t want to hear about her other partner’s penis! It is always okay to ask for less detail about your metamour’s body, or your partner’s sex life with another person. Past or present, man or woman, I don’t want to hear about the bodies of the people my partners have had sex with, and I would consider it fairly rude to the person being talked about, too.
 
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I suppose a Zero Penis Policy is, in some ways, not that different from a One Penis Policy. (In other ways, of course, it’s quite different — you’re not asserting patriarchal privilege with a ZPP.)

If you are honest about it up front, and honest with yourself about the level of control you *may* be claiming over partners’ other relationships, then it’s just about your boundaries and your partners’ willingness to limit their behavior for access to you.

I am curious about how far removed you might need penises to be from you, for you to feel not squicked out. Like, if you’re dating Blossom and she’s with (bi) Seed, and Seed has male partners — do you want to know, and are you comfortable with that “distance”?
 
SlowPoly said:
I suppose a Zero Penis Policy is, in some ways, not that different from a One Penis Policy. (In other ways, of course, it’s quite different — you’re not asserting patriarchal privilege with a ZPP.)

If you are honest about it up front, and honest with yourself about the level of control you *may* be claiming over partners’ other relationships, then it’s just about your boundaries and your partners’ willingness to limit their behavior for access to you.

I am curious about how far removed you might need penises to be from you, for you to feel not squicked out. Like, if you’re dating Blossom and she’s with (bi) Seed, and Seed has male partners — do you want to know, and are you comfortable with that “distance”?
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If a partner has a partner with a penis, I'm okay. What I am talking about is like, quads, triads, etc., with dudes. Generally, my partners and I are friends (at the very least) with each others' partners. Therefore, there is the risk of that sort of thing; I have gotten involved with partners' partners before. I hope that makes sense.
 
MsEmotional said:
First of all, I think refusing to date bi women because you are afraid they will leave you for a man is a different thing than refusing to date bi women because you don’t feel comfortable with sleeping with someone who is concurrently sleeping with men. So I wouldn’t conflate the two.

That said, as a mostly-straight woman whose partners are queer/pansexual, I don’t totally understand your aversion. For example, I have a huge aversion to anal sex for myself, but I don’t care if my partners have anal sex with each other or with their other partners. So it seems a little odd to me that you are so grossed out by the idea of your partners having penis sex just because you don’t want that for yourself. But I suppose there are things that are turn-offs for me about things that my other partners might do with someone else (like one-night stands...I don’t care if it’s with a man or a woman, it grosses me out to think of my partners engaging in sex with someone they don’t care about), so I understand where you are coming from.

To each their own. No bi person wants to be with a monosexual person who is grossed out or made uncomfortable by their other relationships. So if you want to examine and challenge your negative feelings about male sexuality, then I think that is a worthy endeavor IF you want to extend your dating pool to bisexual women. (In the same way that I am examining what makes me so uncomfortable about my partners being willing to engage in safe, consensual sexual encounters with someone they don’t have an ongoing relationship with...) However if you choose to simply acknowledge your aversion and only date lesbian women I think that is okay too.

ETA: I also think it is more than okay to tell a partner you don’t want to hear about her other partner’s penis! It is always okay to ask for less detail about your metamour’s body or your partner’s sex life with that person. Past or present, man or woman, , I don’t want to hear about the bodies my partner’s have had sex with and I would consider it fairly rude to the person being talked about too.
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I really like this answer. And I have been trying to examine things. I think it just might be one of my plain old no-go zones. There are plenty of men in my life, and those who are public figures, or whatever, whom I deeply enjoy and admire AS PEOPLE. But sexually? It is like a JUST NO-type thing. I have dated bi women and would again. I just... when that part creeps in, I get squicked and things go south. I have to work on that, though.
 
GalaGirl said:
And that is ok. You are allowed to have your own opinions/preferences/respect your own personal limits.



I think you could stop generalizing and own this preference. Then it becomes....

"Should I keep my relationships exclusively lesbian if I have a huge aversion to men on a sexual level? Is it fair to do something like this? Is it even morally ok, no matter if the reason is seen as valid?"

Then the answer becomes clearer. YES. It's is ok.

You don't want to be in poly networks with men in it. So don't be. YOU are in charge of your consent and what you choose to participate in or not participate in. Presumably this choice is in alignment with your morals/ethics and with your preferences.

You do not have to worry about (your dating choices) meeting (someone else's morals/ethics/preferences). They are not you.

The unspoken you seem to be worried about seems to be "I'm worried that if I won't date non-monosexual queer women I am perpetuating harmful stereotypes about bisexual women leaving lesbians for men."

Is that it?

Galagirl
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Thank you, Galagirl. You always are so clear and helpful. I do try, as a community activist, not to engage in behavior that might harm other members of the community. But sometimes it gets hard to protect myself.

This is all hypothetical right now, anyway. I have a lot going on and just broke up with someone. I am healing right now and not dating. I am just looking to have the healthiest relationship set-ups I can, for when I do date, for myself and all involved.
 
Hi PurpleSun,

My thought on this is that it depends on how intense one's sexual aversion to men is. If just thinking about your bi partner having sex with a man, ruins things for how you feel about your bi partner? Then, not dating bi women makes sense and is probably the right thing to do. Just as a lesbian should not date men, some lesbians should not date bi women who in turn date men. Does that make sense?

On the other hand, if you can stand to know that your bi partner is having sex with (a) man/men, then you are good to go as far as dating bi (poly) women is concerned. Provided they don't try to share a bunch of extra info with you. No penis descriptions, please! and no blow-by-blow descriptions of the hetero sex they're having. That sort of thing.

Hopefully that helps. There are a lot of good posts on this thread.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
This is all hypothetical right now, anyway. I have a lot going on and just broke up with someone. I am healing right now, not dating. I am just looking to have the healthiest relationship set-ups that I can when I do date, for myself and all involved.
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Then you could just be honest with where you are at, when you are ready to date again. That's healthy for all involved; everything is on the up-and-up and there are no secrets.

Like, "At this time, I prefer to date only lesbians and be in lesbian-only networks. What kind of network is this?"

Dating is how you find the compatible ones. Not everyone you date will be a match, and that is ok.

Take your time healing from the break-up. But don't overthink this stuff. It's ok to be yourself, at whatever stage of life, and have the preferences you have. I know what I wanted in my 20s, 30s, 40s, and so on, were all different.

Galagirl
 
reply to OP

I will go back and read the other responses, but I would like to give you my initial reaction to your original post.

Preface: I am a bisexual woman.

Just as there is a stereotype about bisexual women leaving lesbians for men there is also a stereotype about bisexual women leaving men for lesbians. In the first instance, the subtext is that the bisexual woman is merely "experimenting" and is actually straight (enter the concepts of "lip-stick lesbians" and the female half of unicorn hunters). In the second instance is the subtext that the bisexual woman is "really a lesbian" but was trying to "pass as straight" due to social pressures until her true lesbian nature was revealed. My take on this is that people like to lay blame on forces outside their control. It is easier to blame the fact that she is "really gay" or "really straight" than whatever may be the actual reason (which could, Goddess Forbid, have something to do with her actual partner and their lack of compatibility).

Hence, the frequent lament that bisexual women feel that they are ostracized by both camps, that we are just going through "a phase" and need to "decide" what we really are.

In regards to they idea of penises being a "turn off"? OK, no one is asking you to interact with one. So I guess the question is, is it OK to “discriminate against” a potential partner due to their sexual preferences or proclivities in a broader sense. Anyone is free to be “discriminating” in their sexual partner for whatever they see fit, you are, IN NO WAY, obligated to interact sexually with anyone, for whatever reason.

That being said, is it “fair” to judge someone as being an unfit partner because they are turned off/on by different things than you are? For instance, I am exceedingly “turned off” by ANAL anything. As long as I make it clear that I, personally, don't want to engage in any sexual play involving my, or anyone else's, anorectal region, is it “fair” for me to tell my potential poly partners that them engaging in anal play with others is a deal-breaker for me? (NOTE: I do ask that my partners NOT TELL ME details of their sexual activities with others, partly because I don't want to hear about things that are a “turn off” for me – whether it is the act itself or the person that I find sexually unappealing. Also, I think it is an invasion of privacy and would not want those details shared about me.)

For the record, not all bisexual women's interactions with male partners involve penises. When I was involved sexually with Lotus's husband TT, I made it very clear that I was not interested in interacting with his penis. We made out, he gave me oral sex, he masturbated himself while touching me, end of story.

Also, for informational purposes, me and the other bisexual women that I know are well aware of the (what feels like) lesbian disdain for bisexual women, which is one of the reasons, I think, that we often seek each other out as partners. Both of my long term female FWB's (11 and 22 years) are bisexual women with male primaries (I am not sexually involved with either of their partners).

In terms of morality – I think it is akin to men who are ok with “their women” having sex/relationships with women but object to their partner(s) having sex/relationships with other men. Even though the reasoning is “opposite” (the thought of the partner with a certain gender is a turn off/turn on) it still presumes that people of the same/opposite gender are “different” (i.e. “but, that's different”) as opposed to “people being people” who happen to have different genders/genitals/etc.

Lest anyone think that I presume to have any “moral authority” - I don't. I find myself attracted to “manly men” and “feminine females” - I do not find androgyny sexually appealing. I generally find myself attracted to straight men and bisexual women and NOT bisexual men and lesbians.

PS. My mono lesbian friend would refer to men (with reference to her bisexual partner's former male partners) as "hypodermic needles of disease"

PPS. Thank you, MsEmotional, for affirming that I am NOT, in fact, the only person on the planet (homo or hetero or bi) that is NOT into ANAL!

OTOH, I am fine with ONS. Dude is ok with ONS, unless the person could be construed as a sex-worker! (Which I found out after I got a gratuitous hand-job from a stripper after MrS bought me a lap-dance...)

Whereas MrS would agree with Heinlein's quote:
“A whore should be judged by the same criteria as other professionals offering services for pay — such as dentists, lawyers, hairdressers, physicians, plumbers, etc. Is she professionally competent? Does she give good measure? Is she honest with her clients? It is possible that the percentage of honest and competent whores is higher than that of plumbers and much higher than that of lawyers. And enormously higher than that of professors.”)
 
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Thank you for this reply. It is long and well thought out.

I just want to clarify - I don't have disdain for bisexual women. I just have a huge, undeniable visceral aversion to sex with men, and because my partners and I DO talk about details of other unions, it would be a pretty squicky thing for me. I totally accept bisexuality as a sexual orientation, and I do not buy into those stereotypes. It's more of - being in poly networks complicates the situation, that's all.

As I said in the OP, I've dated bi women and would again. I was just curious to see what folks thought.
 
Galagirl,

You're right. That is what is healthy FOR ME, at this time, and that is better for all involved.
 
kdt26417 said:
Hi PurpleSun,

My thought on this is that it depends on how intense one's sexual aversion to men is. If just thinking about your bi partner having sex with a man, ruins things for how you feel about your bi partner? Then, not dating bi women makes sense and is probably the right thing to do. Just as a lesbian should not date men, some lesbians should not date bi women who in turn date men. Does that make sense?

On the other hand, if you can stand to know that your bi partner is having sex with (a) man/men, then you are good to go as far as dating bi (poly) women is concerned. Provided they don't try to share a bunch of extra info with you. No penis descriptions, please! and no blow-by-blow descriptions of the hetero sex they're having. That sort of thing.

Hopefully that helps. There are a lot of good posts on this thread.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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Thank you, Kevin! I am reading a lot of good, thoughtful information in this thread for sure. This is something I want to work through, but it is and always has been a visceral reaction. It's up to me to get past it.
 
I think that, as a lesbian, you are not required, expected to, or should leave yourself exposed to sexual interactions that do not appeal to you.

In other words, if you don't wish to be involved with a bisexual woman who wants/expects/is up for also dating men in a triad or quad type arrangement, then it's up to you to just SAY SO as plainly and clearly as you can, and as early into the relationship as possible. Preferably from the outset of an interaction with the new person if she is a bisexual female.

You say you're not averse to your bisexual partner having sex with a man or men... "over there" (parallel poly)... as long as you don't have to hear the details of their encounters or share much interpersonal contact with said male lovers. And that is FINE. But since you're poly and potentially up for dating bi women, that will need to be spelt out from the outset (i.e. "I love you and am turned on by YOU, but I am really not into men/penises in ANY way and don't wish to have contact with one, see one, or hear about your sexual life with anyone who has a penis".) That is not too much to ask.

It shouldn't need spelling out that NO ONE - gay, lesbian, bisexual or any other orientation - should be expected to participate in shared sex/group sex with ANYONE they are not into, nor should they be expected to enter into a triad, quad, polycule or kitchen-table type poly arrangement with anyone they don't wish to.
 
lunabunny said:
I think that, as a lesbian, you are not required, expected to, or should leave yourself exposed to sexual interactions that do not appeal to you.

In other words, if you don't wish to be involved with a bisexual woman who wants/expects/is up for also dating men in a triad or quad type arrangement, then it's up to you to just SAY SO as plainly and clearly as you can, and as early into the relationship as possible. Preferably from the outset of an interaction with the new person if she is a bisexual female.

You say you're not averse to your bisexual partner having sex with a man or men... "over there" (parallel poly)... as long as you don't have to hear the details of their encounters or share much interpersonal contact with said male lovers. And that is FINE. But since you're poly and potentially up for dating bi women, that will need to be spelt out from the outset (i.e. "I love you and am turned on by YOU, but I am really not into men/penises in ANY way and don't wish to have contact with one, see one, or hear about your sexual life with anyone who has a penis".) That is not too much to ask.

It shouldn't need spelling out that NO ONE - gay, lesbian, bisexual or any other orientation - should be expected to participate in shared sex/group sex with ANYONE they are not into, nor should they be expected to enter into a triad, quad, polycule or kitchen-table type poly arrangement with anyone they don't wish to.
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This is a really awesome reply. My ideal set up is a childfree poly family. Remember that old show "The Golden Girls?" Like that, but with lesbians lol. All living together, sharing, loving, sharing our lives, in a completely egalitarian relationship. So, to that end, it would not work with someone who wants a man in the mix.
 
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