How to coexist with a monogamist?

In case it helps: resources for finding poly-friendly counselors.

If you can't find a poly-savvy counselor on your insurance, see if you can find one who's willing to read, "What Psychology Professionals Should Know about Polyamory," a book by Geri Weitzman, Ph.D., Joy Davidson, Ph.D., and Robert A. Phillips, Jr., Ph.D.
 
Arrogance

I used to have a girlfriend who wanted monogamy and eventually broke up with me because of our discrepancies.

This is what I think:
From what you wrote, it clearly seems to be that you view polyamory as a superior form of relationships, as a moral "development" and think that people only choose to be monogamous because "society tells them to". You wrote in one of your posts that monogamy is against our nature, because we are "designed to want sex". (Simplified)

I never understood why people are so convinced that their way of thinking is the only "right way" of thinking.
It's not even scientifically correct to say that we want what we want because "we are designed to desire sex", no, it's not that simple. It's so much more complex! Jealousy is a feeling that proved to be of advantage in evolution. It's a natural feeling, it's not "bad", it's not "the opposite of love". Some people just don't get so jealous - some others do, and THIS is natural. Jealousy is not a feeling that society has taught us and that comes from religion.
Someone who wants to be monogamous does not automatically view their partner as something they "own". I myself enjoy open relationships more than monogamous ones, but I don't say things such as "someone is not secure/mature/whatever ENOUGH to practice polyamory" because it implies that polyamory is a more evolved form of relationship and it simply isn't. It's a preference, and there are a million reasons why people want it or not.

In my opinion, that could be a big problem in your relationship. It seems to me that you do not think that your wife's opinion on monogamy is equally worth, equally "right" as yours.
I think if you want to fix your relationship to your wife and come to understand her better, you should begin to understand that it's 100% okay for her to want monogamy. If you can't live with that, and she can't be okay with poly - it's not going to work.
Monogamy is just as "mature", just as good as polyamory. Poly is not "better".

I used to think this way, and I can only tell you that this was how I scared away my ex girlfriend. It's nothing but arrogance.

Good luck!
 
Is Polymory more evolved?

This is worth a seperate thread I think, so I started it.
 
I believe I may be communicating my position poorly. Let me try to clarify...

1. My definition of love is selflessness towards another. Jealousy in general (while absolutely a normal human emotion) is a force against selflessness. In a perfect world with no jealousy for instance. (A world which does not exist even in my head) we should desire what's best for our partner even if it means we never get to see that person again. If my wife came to me tomorrow and said, "I've found someone else, we are more compatible and I'm not poly so I want to be with him only." I would want that for her. Granted I would have all the selfish feelings. I would be jealous. I would wish I could make her happy. I I may even be angry. But I would attempt to push those feelings aside. Because in my mind they are the opposite of love. Fear, jealousy, anger, etc are all perfectly normal human emotions and I wouldn't fault people for having them, but they should be emotions that we at least try to temper, because they are not healthy and they keep us from loving fully. We are all born with selfishness, or learn it. But it's up to each of us to work towards. The more selfless we get, the happier we will become. I have a weird religious belief that stems from several religious thoughts but can be summed up as: the pursuit of pleasure is our end goal, but many settle for selfish worldly pleasures that only lead to small amounts of pleasure at the expense of long term happiness. Our goal in this life is to learn how to be as selfless as possible in order to learn to truly love. The more you are able to love without selfishness, the more you find true pleasure and happiness.

2. Jealousy is definitely not taught by religion or anything else for that matter. But it is reinforced in many religious circles. Most conservative religious leaders call for married couples to never befriend, be in a room alone with or even look at another woman you find beautiful. Wives and husbands are taught that to even look at another woman lustfully is the same as committing adultery and spouses use this to think that something which is a biologically normal thought is a sin against your spouse. And many religions in particular treat the woman as an object that is our possession instead of our equal. Religion in general doesn't seek to drive out jealous thoughts and in some instances condones it.

3. I think you are confusing my thoughts on jealousy with my thoughts on mono vs poly relationships. I don't believe that poly is a better option. I do believe the allowance of poly relationships and the openness to it by others is an advancement. I have nothing against mono relationships or any others for that matter. It is closed mindedness that I don't like. If you study and feel you understand all things poly and love your spouse, but prefer both partners be mono, then I think that awesome and absolutely your right. The problem I believe is that most of the time fear, jealousy and anger step in and make the decision for a person and they shut down to the idea entirely.
 
I believe I may be communicating my position poorly. Let me try to clarify...

1. My definition of love is selflessness towards another. Jealousy in general (while absolutely a normal human emotion) is a force against selflessness. In a perfect world with no jealousy for instance. (A world which does not exist even in my head) we should desire what's best for our partner even if it means we never get to see that person again. If my wife came to me tomorrow and said, "I've found someone else, we are more compatible and I'm not poly so I want to be with him only." I would want that for her. Granted I would have all the selfish feelings. I would be jealous. I would wish I could make her happy. I I may even be angry. But I would attempt to push those feelings aside. Because in my mind they are the opposite of love. Fear, jealousy, anger, etc are all perfectly normal human emotions and I wouldn't fault people for having them, but they should be emotions that we at least try to temper, because they are not healthy and they keep us from loving fully. We are all born with selfishness, or learn it. But it's up to each of us to work towards. The more selfless we get, the happier we will become. I have a weird religious belief that stems from several religious thoughts but can be summed up as: the pursuit of pleasure is our end goal, but many settle for selfish worldly pleasures that only lead to small amounts of pleasure at the expense of long term happiness. Our goal in this life is to learn how to be as selfless as possible in order to learn to truly love. The more you are able to love without selfishness, the more you find true pleasure and happiness.

2. Jealousy is definitely not taught by religion or anything else for that matter. But it is reinforced in many religious circles. Most conservative religious leaders call for married couples to never befriend, be in a room alone with or even look at another woman you find beautiful. Wives and husbands are taught that to even look at another woman lustfully is the same as committing adultery and spouses use this to think that something which is a biologically normal thought is a sin against your spouse. And many religions in particular treat the woman as an object that is our possession instead of our equal. Religion in general doesn't seek to drive out jealous thoughts and in some instances condones it.

3. I think you are confusing my thoughts on jealousy with my thoughts on mono vs poly relationships. I don't believe that poly is a better option. I do believe the allowance of poly relationships and the openness to it by others is an advancement. I have nothing against mono relationships or any others for that matter. It is closed mindedness that I don't like. If you study and feel you understand all things poly and love your spouse, but prefer both partners be mono, then I think that awesome and absolutely your right. The problem I believe is that most of the time fear, jealousy and anger step in and make the decision for a person and they shut down to the idea entirely.

Very well articulated; more love, less fear. This is the philosophy I adopted for my life when I left the church. Those in the church were promoting love love love and freedom freedom freedom and saying Jesus gives that to you. But I just couldn't find it. I'm not Christian-bashing here I'm just saying what I experienced. But what you've written is so true.
 
Well my church experience was similar.
 
I believe I may be communicating my position poorly. Let me try to clarify...

1. My definition of love is selflessness towards another. Jealousy in general (while absolutely a normal human emotion) is a force against selflessness. In a perfect world with no jealousy for instance. (A world which does not exist even in my head) we should desire what's best for our partner even if it means we never get to see that person again. If my wife came to me tomorrow and said, "I've found someone else, we are more compatible and I'm not poly so I want to be with him only." I would want that for her. Granted I would have all the selfish feelings. I would be jealous. I would wish I could make her happy. I I may even be angry. But I would attempt to push those feelings aside. Because in my mind they are the opposite of love. Fear, jealousy, anger, etc are all perfectly normal human emotions and I wouldn't fault people for having them, but they should be emotions that we at least try to temper, because they are not healthy and they keep us from loving fully. We are all born with selfishness, or learn it. But it's up to each of us to work towards. The more selfless we get, the happier we will become. I have a weird religious belief that stems from several religious thoughts but can be summed up as: the pursuit of pleasure is our end goal, but many settle for selfish worldly pleasures that only lead to small amounts of pleasure at the expense of long term happiness. Our goal in this life is to learn how to be as selfless as possible in order to learn to truly love. The more you are able to love without selfishness, the more you find true pleasure and happiness.

2. Jealousy is definitely not taught by religion or anything else for that matter. But it is reinforced in many religious circles. Most conservative religious leaders call for married couples to never befriend, be in a room alone with or even look at another woman you find beautiful. Wives and husbands are taught that to even look at another woman lustfully is the same as committing adultery and spouses use this to think that something which is a biologically normal thought is a sin against your spouse. And many religions in particular treat the woman as an object that is our possession instead of our equal. Religion in general doesn't seek to drive out jealous thoughts and in some instances condones it.

3. I think you are confusing my thoughts on jealousy with my thoughts on mono vs poly relationships. I don't believe that poly is a better option. I do believe the allowance of poly relationships and the openness to it by others is an advancement. I have nothing against mono relationships or any others for that matter. It is closed mindedness that I don't like. If you study and feel you understand all things poly and love your spouse, but prefer both partners be mono, then I think that awesome and absolutely your right. The problem I believe is that most of the time fear, jealousy and anger step in and make the decision for a person and they shut down to the idea entirely.

I love everything you say here. We think alike. Jealousy, when leveled towards a loved one, is a destructive unhealthy emotion that hurts everyone. Religion and society I believe understand this, but instead of teaching people that it's something that should be controlled and tempered, they support it by putting the blame on the person who is "causing" the jealousy. This is then used as a sign that there is something wrong and that you need to stop whatever it is you are doing to bring peace back to the relationship. Can you imagine if we raised children with this mindset? Instantly placating them anytime they feel jealousy? Pshhhhh. Marriage and monogamous relationships are the only place in society where unhealthy emotions are condoned.
 
This is then used as a sign that there is something wrong and that you need to stop whatever it is you are doing to bring peace back to the relationship. Can you imagine if we raised children with this mindset? Instantly placating them anytime they feel jealousy? Pshhhhh. Marriage and monogamous relationships are the only place in society where unhealthy emotions are condoned.

This is fascinating and I thought about it on and off yesterday. I chatted to Art about it in the evening too.

What I came to is that if it is possible to see jealousy as an emotion that arises from fear of losing something important, then I think it is very possible to see it as something that is encouraged throughout our society.

Increasingly in society, people are encouraged to compete with each other. It's the basis of sport, of education, of many jobs. Winning and being seen to do things better than other is approved of and encouraged. Nothing wrong with that in itself - a bit of competition and a bit of a desire to do well can be really good things.

The difficulty, I think, is that if winning is seen as very important, then the thought of not winning can trigger feelings of jealousy. Most folk learn to hide their feelings of jealousy most of the time, to act on them only in situations where they feel they can get away with it - like in marriages.

For all of that, I believe that the root cause of it is too much competition from a young age and too little time being spent dealing with the jealousy.

Some of my family do it very well. I have relatives with 3 little boys. An older son and slightly younger twins. The older boy and one of the twins are very gifted at sport. Pick new things up easily and enjoy sport enormously. Being into sport is very important to both parents so a big deal is made of those kids.

The other twin isn't all that good at sport and doesn't enjoy it nearly as much. In some families, that wee boy would grow up feeling like a loser and probably experiencing intense jealousy for much of his life. Thankfully, this family is more sensible. They look for what he is good at and make a big deal of it. He is so kind and gentle with others. I've watched him cheer on his brothers when they excel at things that he can't do. He makes friends easily and everybody he meets wants to be with him. His family point these things out to him.

They also point out the value of needing to try to learn new things and how it teaches persistence and a willingness to try new things even if they don't go well at first.

This might be pandering to him but I bet he'll grow up feeling good about himself and not behaving in jealous ways as an adult.

On the other hand, a friend of mine grew up in a family where he was seen very much as the best in the family. He is charismatic, good looking, good at making money and fun to be around. His mother thinks he is the best thing ever. His siblings are incredibly jealous of him. They mostly held this in until his mother became old and unwell. At that point, the jealousy came out. His family have taken legal action and employed lawyers to keep him away from his mum. Even though his mum is old and dying and is now being denied the company of her favourite child, the jealousy his siblings feel is such that they will put their own mum and brother through the loss of each other.

Since the mum is very infirm and one of the daughters in the family has power of attorney, this is all legal and acceptable in UK law and so the long held family jealousies are being played out.

My take has always been that if I see jealous behaviour in children or dogs who I am temporarily or permanently responsible for, I stop what I'm doing because it is a sign that things aren't okay. I work out a plan to try and help the on that is feeling jealous not feel that way. Usually with kids and dogs that means simply making sure there is more than enough of whatever is valuable to them to go around.

I don't tend to do it with adults. I just don't hang around with adults who haven't found some way to sensibly deal with any jealousy that they might have picked up in childhood.

IP
 
The evolutionary psychological explanation of jealousy suggests that men express jealousy and aggression towards people who could possibly steal their mate and impregnate them and women become jealous because a new woman on the scene could mean that her mate does not take care of her and the children.
 
The evolutionary psychological explanation of jealousy suggests that men express jealousy and aggression towards people who could possibly steal their mate and impregnate them and women become jealous because a new woman on the scene could mean that her mate does not take care of her and the children.

I could bet, that this is just an explanation that seems plausible. Do you know of any facts or studies that support this substantially?
 
My take has always been that if I see jealous behaviour in children or dogs who I am temporarily or permanently responsible for, I stop what I'm doing because it is a sign that things aren't okay. I work out a plan to try and help the on that is feeling jealous not feel that way. Usually with kids and dogs that means simply making sure there is more than enough of whatever is valuable to them to go around.

Great. I like this approach very much. The ones feeling jealousy are in need of help. However they need to accept that they have to work and taking the help, not just the others have to stop everything that makes the jealous ones feel that way.
 
I could bet, that this is just an explanation that seems plausible. Do you know of any facts or studies that support this substantially?

That's sort of the problem with evo psych, it's largely theories based on anthropological studies and looking at the animal kingdom.
 
Great. I like this approach very much. The ones feeling jealousy are in need of help. However they need to accept that they have to work and taking the help, not just the others have to stop everything that makes the jealous ones feel that way.

Maybe. I don't really know - I don't think I've ever tried to deal with an adult who is jealous.

With children and dogs, I don't see them as in need of help. Quite the opposite - often they are responding very appropriately to what is going on around them.

Teaching children and dogs to compete with each other for food, toys, attention, good grades, to win at games etc etc etc has the side effect of teaching them that these things are scarce. Feeling jealous when a much loved toy is taken away and given to somebody else is pretty normal under those circumstances.

That's kind of what I see going on lots around me.

It's no wonder so many adults feel insecure and jealous so much of the time.

I just don't like competition all that much so whenever I'm responsible for caring for children or dogs I work to remove the need for those jealous feelings as much as I can.

I don't ask or expect any of them to feel like they have a problem and are in need of help.

Of course - it can become a problem for adult humans. Insecurity and jealousy wreck relationships.

I don't find I have insecure and jealous people close to me. Usually people like that dump me and move on to somebody who can more give them what they need. Works out better all round that way. :)

IP
 
Update:

One week into this month of focussing entirely on each other. It's actually going really well. We have had great conversations. Last night my wife and I had 2 deep conversations. First she expressed a concern in a calm manner about a cruise I am going on in a few months without her. I'm going with several family members, but she has this strong concern that I will sneak off and try to find some girl to have sex with. I would generally shut down at this point and act like she has no right to feel that way and tell her how ridiculous she sounds. Instead I calmly said, I understand your concern. I have no desire to do that. But I will be alone occasionally on the cruise ship. I left it at that. I was clearly stating that I wasn't intending to change my behavior and promise to never be alone, but at the same time not discarding her feelings. It was perfect, because it's impossible for her to have any emotional reaction to that in a negative way and it just puts the onus back on her to either deal with that insecurity or don't.

Then later we had a conversation about pornography. I had told her that I decided on my own to not watch anything sexual in nature without her during this month. Not because I thought it was wrong, but just so all my sexual energy was focused on her. She definitely liked hearing that. Then she opened up to me about how she actually watched it a couple times in the last month. She wanted to try to figure out the appeal of it. She said she felt guilty and dirty after watching it. I asked her why. She didn't really know why. I challenged her to think about how she used to feel guilty after having sex with her husband. That didn't mean it was wrong. Guilt does not equal wrong. Many times it just means it is against what you have always believed (either correctly or incorrectly) is wrong. She said she really just didn't enjoy it that much. She is a woman after all and said she wanted a story line and to see passion. I told her, I actually prefer that too. That kind of stuff can be difficult to find.

We are staying in a beachfront condo, just the two of us this weekend. There is an adult toy store down the road and I made a suggestion. I said, "Why don't we go to the adult toy store and pick out one or two things to bring home." I'd love to get her a remote control egg we can use when we go out at times and I think she will like it. I told her while we are there we can tell them the type of movie we are looking for and see if they have any suggestions. Maybe they have a genre we don't know about that is right down our alley. If so, then we can get a movie and try to watch it later. She seemed open to the suggestion. My thought is then I can take her out to a nice dinner and we can go walk on the beach. (Perhaps with our toy inside her...)

Long story short though and the most important thing was that we talked openly about something that previously had an iron curtain attached to it.
 
I would generally shut down at this point and act like she has no right to feel that way and tell her how ridiculous she sounds. Instead I calmly said, I understand your concern. I have no desire to do that. But I will be alone occasionally on the cruise ship. I left it at that.

Glad to see you are changing your communication pattern. Also glad it was more helpful and yielded better results than defensive listening.

If she wants a plot, however loose or silly...could start with the old Alice Musical. Maybe Beneath the Valley of the Ultra Vixens. Look up Misty Mundae movie parodies. Don't leap into hard core stuff. Keep it light and funny.

Also check what's going on with Feminist Porn Awards the last few years. Check Pink and White films -- the Crash Pad series or Superfreak maybe?

Glad you both are trying to talk more.
Galagirl
 
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Glad to hear the good news Needingadvice22.
 
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Needingadvice22. Your thoughts, perspectives, and growth give me some ideas on ways I can approach opening my own longstanding (18 years) monogamous relationship.
 
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