I can't believe I'm considering this
- Thread starter CTF
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FallenAngelina
Well-known member
Just want to say, as someone who has been cut off because a spouse was unhappy: This is a REALLY SHITTY thing to do to another person. The man you keep alluding to, toying with, competing with, using - he is a human being and "cut off contact" might sound logical to you, but can be devastating to the cut off-ee. Anytime "cut off contact" is in anyone's rule book, there is something seriously wrong all around. This is crappy, ignorant and cruel and it never solves the primary couple's problem, anyway.
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Dagferi
Well-known member
Amen
FallenAngelina
Well-known member
...according to CTF/the husband and filtered through what the wife feels she needs to say to her husband. We actually have no idea what their private relationship is and what this "other man" is actually communicating, nor can we know what his perspective is. Even so, anyone who thinks that "cut off contact" is fine to do to a metamor and anyone who thinks that "cut off contact" will repair what is distasteful about one's spousal relationship seriously does not understand how good relationships work.
Look, I'm not saying that he isn't a person. I don't know if "metamor" was ever the right word to describe him as. Although, admittedly, I had never heard the term until the poly discussion took place between us, and came across it while research exactly what polyamory was/is in the first place.
Alright, I get the fact that you think that cutting off contact was a shitty thing to do. But I'm curious... What's the alternative? Especially when there has NEVER been any doubt that there is no room for polyamory in our marriage. We were together for over two years before we got married, and in that time, she knew of my monogamy. And for the subsequent 16 1/2 years, there was still never any doubt, whether from random, seemingly anecdotal conversations on the subject or not. Hell, even when having those fantasy "who is one celebrity you'd let your spouse sleep with" discussions, I would refuse to give an answer because, even though improbable, I'm not okay with the idea by any stretch of the imagination.
Sure. One alternative would have been to leave her. Which is precisely where it was heading. However, she made the choice to help keep our marriage in tact by cutting him off. Yeah, it was a heavy handed decision, but ultimately one that she made.
You're right... There will never be a way to truly convey his intentions/thoughts, etc... All there is to go on is what you read from me. So you can choose to ignore every word I type if you want. However, keep in mind how pointless it would be for me to lie. I have better things to do with my time than toy with people on a chat site. I'm here because I have serious dilemmas & concerns on my mind that need the perspective of people that I have a very difficult time identifying with. And in reality, I also will never truly know his thoughts/intentions. Not for lack of trying... Shoot, for nearly two months, I had to contend with him ducking & dodging virtually every attempt to reach out him. And even on during the couple of times I did get the chance to speak with him, they were mostly vague answers like "whatever she told you, is what it is". Fortunately, not only as I read most of the replies from people in the last 24 hours, but as I type this right now, I have come to realize that opening up the discussion to reconnect with him is an extremely bad idea. At least, in the foreseeable future.
I'm sorry that you had something similar happen to you. I don't know the details behind your circumstance, but don't ever assume that all instances like that have the same motivations. Sometimes they're justified, and sometimes they're not. By now, you know enough of my story to have your own opinion, but if you're going to assume that it's unjustified because you think I may be distorting anything... Well, I don't know what to tell you.
True. And that goes into the "con" side of the list. But, I think it's becoming more & more evident that opening up the discussion isn't the way to go for a while.
And another thing... How, exactly, am I "toying with" or "using" this guy? Let's get this straight. Worst case scenario - my wife & this other person seemed to have developed a relationship model that was a deal breaker in our marriage. Best case, she neglected her marriage in favor of someone who enabled her to act as though consequences did not exist (such as convincing her to quit her job, successfully). Neither or which, I was made aware of until after the fact.
Say what you want about our marriage... But correct me if I'm wrong, isn't one of the goals of any successful relationship to include the other partner in serious decision making? Suppose I had a friend who talked me into buying a second house, only to go bankrupt as a result. Would my wife have the right to be upset with that person? Or would doing so, be "toying with" him/her?
I could be wrong here.
But I think FallenAngelina might have meant that if you and wife have an agreement between you two (that she will dump him if it gets too close) and neither of you inform Dude? That is witholding information that affects him. He cannot give full consent if he doesn't know what he's getting into. That could be considered "toying" with him.
But to me you seem to mean that all three would be aware of what the consequence would be ahead of time BEFORE agreeing to this. That if it gets too close, they end it. And there's no "toying" because they are fully aware of what is expected. And if they don't like the terms, they could just not agree and stay apart.
I do not care for agreements like that but if I agreed to it? I cannot complain later I was toyed with. I went in with full knowledge.
To me that is a side trip. Where I think it is a bad idea? I wouldn't even make the offer! It relies on them a) being honest and reporting and b) following through. Which was some of the problem to begin with. He's a shady character and your wife is wonky in the head right now.
Thing is, he was never a metamour to you with all parties consenting to poly.
To me? Your wife had an emotional affair. The guy was trying to cowboy her off and had weird influence over her. She let him talk her into quitting her job. Or she says he did. Either way? That's messed up.
I know your wife wants to call it "just friends" but if that's the case, why was she going on about sleeping with him? To me it all read like an emotional affair she had for escapism from both her depression, her work, and dealing with you in mourning.
She just isn't ready to call it that or own her behavior at this time. Since it is now over anyway? Rather than press a point, just let her call it "friendship." Small price of admission to be rid of the Dude. And just encourage her to sort her issues out with her therapist.
I'm very glad you have decided to just let it be done with this Dude and not try to re-open anything there.
Yes, provided your wife is healthy. I have no idea why she was consulting Dude rather than you if she was unhappy with her job and wanted to quit. She lives with you and it would impact your shared household income. Maybe she's just blame shifting that part on to him. Who knows?
If she's dealing with depression and still not taking reponsibility for her behavior and being all wonky in the head? You may have to accept that you could have to make serious decisions without her for a time because her thinking is wonky right now.
Hang in there as you continue to heal and focus on rebuilding trust with wife. Encourage her to work with her therapist. You continue to work with yours. I hope you guys make it.
GL!
Galagirl
But I think FallenAngelina might have meant that if you and wife have an agreement between you two (that she will dump him if it gets too close) and neither of you inform Dude? That is witholding information that affects him. He cannot give full consent if he doesn't know what he's getting into. That could be considered "toying" with him.
But to me you seem to mean that all three would be aware of what the consequence would be ahead of time BEFORE agreeing to this. That if it gets too close, they end it. And there's no "toying" because they are fully aware of what is expected. And if they don't like the terms, they could just not agree and stay apart.
I do not care for agreements like that but if I agreed to it? I cannot complain later I was toyed with. I went in with full knowledge.
To me that is a side trip. Where I think it is a bad idea? I wouldn't even make the offer! It relies on them a) being honest and reporting and b) following through. Which was some of the problem to begin with. He's a shady character and your wife is wonky in the head right now.
Thing is, he was never a metamour to you with all parties consenting to poly.
To me? Your wife had an emotional affair. The guy was trying to cowboy her off and had weird influence over her. She let him talk her into quitting her job. Or she says he did. Either way? That's messed up.
I know your wife wants to call it "just friends" but if that's the case, why was she going on about sleeping with him? To me it all read like an emotional affair she had for escapism from both her depression, her work, and dealing with you in mourning.
She just isn't ready to call it that or own her behavior at this time. Since it is now over anyway? Rather than press a point, just let her call it "friendship." Small price of admission to be rid of the Dude. And just encourage her to sort her issues out with her therapist.
I'm very glad you have decided to just let it be done with this Dude and not try to re-open anything there.
Yes, provided your wife is healthy. I have no idea why she was consulting Dude rather than you if she was unhappy with her job and wanted to quit. She lives with you and it would impact your shared household income. Maybe she's just blame shifting that part on to him. Who knows?
If she's dealing with depression and still not taking reponsibility for her behavior and being all wonky in the head? You may have to accept that you could have to make serious decisions without her for a time because her thinking is wonky right now.
Hang in there as you continue to heal and focus on rebuilding trust with wife. Encourage her to work with her therapist. You continue to work with yours. I hope you guys make it.
GL!
Galagirl
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vinsanity0
Active member
Dagferi
Well-known member
No your wife should only be upset with you in that scenario. Your friend didn't hold a gun to your head and force you to buy a second house. You chose to buy that house even though it could be financially disastrous. You're a big boy and can think for yourself.
Just like your wife is a big girl and can make decisions for herself. A marriage certificate doesn't give you license to be involved with all your spouse's choices in life.
FallenAngelina
Well-known member
Yes, that's what I'm getting at. Thank you, GG.
This guy seems to be taking an awful lot of blame for what's unsavory in the marital relationship, for what's unsaid and dark in the individual married individuals. Who can make someone else quit her job or buy a house?? If your wife is that unstable, CTF, then she needs serious and constant mental health care and all of this is way beyond what you or this other man can influence. You're heaping all sorts of blame on what you keep calling "a certain someone" who in your view has superhuman powers to enter your wife's head, ruin your marriage and ruin both your lives. This isn't about him at all, it's about your wife's mental challenges and it's about you and it's about your marriage. Stop blaming this guy for who the two of you are.
Just to go a bit meta about being mono... My ex h was that way, not admitting to ever "lusting after another in his heart." He also denied ever masturbating. It was all in an effort to control my sexuality, to "set a good example."
He knew I was "poly," not that we had a word for it back then. We practiced monogamy and I never literally cheated, never touched another. But I would get crushes on others. I felt guilty and bad, and always tried to hide it. He always knew though, and he resented it and punished me passive aggressively, to the point where I lost attraction to him because I felt constantly surveilled and judged.
After 25 years he finally accepted my nature as bi and poly. Then he admitted to mentally undressing and fucking every attractive woman he saw on the street, every celebrity, every friend of ours...
He knew I was "poly," not that we had a word for it back then. We practiced monogamy and I never literally cheated, never touched another. But I would get crushes on others. I felt guilty and bad, and always tried to hide it. He always knew though, and he resented it and punished me passive aggressively, to the point where I lost attraction to him because I felt constantly surveilled and judged.
After 25 years he finally accepted my nature as bi and poly. Then he admitted to mentally undressing and fucking every attractive woman he saw on the street, every celebrity, every friend of ours...
Fair enough... But of course all parties would have to be in agreement before proceeding. Even him. It would be pointless to consider reestablishing contact under false pretenses. Like it or not, and at the risk of sounding harsh, his place as low man on the totem pole would have to be acknowledged by him as well. But alas, this doesn't appear that this will happen any time soon, so it's probably a moot point right now. But the fact is, I'm not into playing games, and I would see "toying" with someone as just as much a disservice to me, as it would be to him, and my wife for that matter.
My wife never "went on" about sleeping with him. Yes, we've had the discussion. The closest we came to her stating that she had those desires, were once during a conversation when I asked her if she would, assuming I'd be okay with it (which was an attempt to find out her desires beyond just not wanting to hurt my feelings), and a couple of times when she'd say things like "not yet", or "not now". She still insists that it was "just friends", and that she had never had any romantic feelings towards him. But sometimes, romance is in the eye of the beholder. Some may view identical circumstances under completely different contexts & view points.
She never blamed him for her quitting her job. And I don't specifically blame him for it either. It's true, she is an adult, and the final say ended with her. The problem was, and where I take issue on the subject, was that in her fragile state at the time (important note, she quit her job only a month after my dad died), she chose to listen to him, because he didn't bother to help her see the consequences. Simply put, she gravitated towards his telling her what she wanted to hear, as opposed to my adding concern over the financial fallout. She had wanted to quit for over a year before she finally did. And I made it perfectly clear that I supported her desire to not want to work for that company anymore. I just typically would mention finding another job & quit, as opposed to quitting & staying home.
I think, in the end, that was why she chose to consult him, rather than me. With him, there was never any "this may be a bad idea". He had always treated her that, no matter what choice she made, she was right in doing so... Because, apparently, all that matters, is if you're happy. Responsibilities be damned. And this behavior was rubbing off onto the kids. Of course happiness is a good thing, but when my oldest two (19 & 21) are allowed to sleep until 1-2 in the afternoon, and spend the rest of the day goofing on the internet or hanging out with their friends, I shouldn't be viewed as the bad guy for pushing them to get jobs.
And no, I don't blame him for my kids doing that, but I don't view anyone who supports that kind of behavior as anything but destructive.
The truth is, that the "Dude" had to be set aside completely before we could begin to work on it in the first place. If the poly discussion had come into play before there was a face to the circumstance, then accepting it may have been more possible. Instead, it came at the heels of death in the family, a mental breakdown, being emotionally abandoned for 6 months in the wake of it all. Had there not been so many other things on the plate, who knows how the conversation would have gone. Not that I'd have been willing to share our bed with another person, but I certainly wouldn't have felt nearly as threatened.
As to accepting her BEING poly, I actually do. I've known about her bisexuality since forever, none of that bothers me. Nor do I feel it even matters if it's something one is born with, or chooses. The fact is, that we are still responsible for whether or not we act on any of it. I can accept who she is, but I don't have to accept what she does.
Of course she'd have the right to be upset with me. I never said that she wouldn't have. But you know as well as I do, that the friend that I chose to listen to over her, is going to get his/her share of the scorn... And rightfully so.
GreenAcres
New member
You are still blaming him for *her* behavior. People have other people in their lives die all the time. It sucks. Been there. It makes people emotional, and can cause poor behavior. But, in healthy people, those behaviors tend to be small. Your wife clearly already had issues, and the real problem here is not controlling her actions, not thinking through consequences, and not seeking out advice from responsible people. I get bad advice from people all the time, that doesn't mean I follow it. She's responsible for her choices to follow whatever path she chooses.
If you believe her choices in friends (or partners) is such that you have to control it because she allows those people to have devastating effects on your life and those of your children, there are much bigger issues than this guy, and poly wouldn't even be on my radar at that point. Therapy would. Or removing myself from the relationship. I couldn't live with a partner whose friendships and decisions I had to monitor like a child's. Talk about wearing (not to mention anti-trust-building, and definitely passion killing).
Forget about this guy for now. Forget opening contact with him. You guys clearly have other, much bigger, issues to work through.
Not once did I say he "made" her quit her job. This has NOTHING to do with whether or not anyone was forced into anything. This is about whether or not someone who - in a fragile mental state - will gravitate towards what they want to hear, rather than maybe something that they need to hear.
She actually is under serious mental health care, and the fact of the matter is, that I'm trying to protect her from people like him, who appeared to only have one thing on his mind. And even if that wasn't the case, he was doing her a disservice by blindly approving of every thought she had. As long as she was "happy", it didn't matter who else had to endure the consequences.
And just so we're clear, this has less to do with the romance/not romance, sexual/not sexual aspects, but rather, as to whether or not this is a negative influence on an impressionable, mentally ill woman. Sure, the romance/sex parts are something that are/would be painful to think about, and would be completely out of the question whether mentally stable or not... But this goes far beyond that. He is not blameless. He gets his share because he knew she was sick, he knew she would listen as long as she believed he cared strictly about what she wanted.
Now, you keep eluding to the notion that things must have been troublesome on our marriage without him. The truth is, things were really, over all pretty great. Of course we had our share of problems - who doesn't? But we've actually had a wonderful marriage. We knew each others buttons, but were always respectful enough not to push them. We were partners in running our household, and raising the kids. We were there for each other. She had always had friends, that was NEVER the issue. If she was unclear on whether someone gave her bad advice, we would talk about it. She accepted the fact that I was going to - sometimes - tell her if she was making a bad choice, and vice versa. And it's true, maybe he was just more of a contrast, and she realized that she preferred his methods as opposed to mine... But does that mean that I have to become a yes man to her from now on? No. He's not fully to blame, but it was an odd coincidence that his entering the picture marked the moments that we began to drift apart. Choose to believe it or not, but he WAS a factor, and it was my choice to not have him in my life, even by extension. So either he left, or I was going to. I was even willing to keep covering her health insurance, and give her the house.
I guess, in a moment of weakness, I thought that perhaps a fresh start, and everyone knowing where each other stands, and exactly how far it was/wasn't able to go, a friendship was possible with him... But I truly don't think that I can ever some to trust his intentions.
Well, I'm not going to speak for him. As for me, I don't deny masturbating. I'm just extremely private about sexual activities. I don't deny noticing attractive women. However, my mind simply never went farther than that. I don't mentally undress or fuck everyone I encounter. I see no need to. And to tell you the truth, I don't even find fault in people who do. I am just not like that. It has nothing to do with setting a "good example", although, I do have to say that I was raised to believe that the thoughts that motivate our actions are every bit as important as whether or not we act on them.
Like a lot of kids, I was punished for cursing. But there was more. I was also punished for using similar words. I couldn't replace "shit" with "shoot", for example. Because I was taught that, no matter the words I use, the INTENT is still the same. By the same token, expressing a desire to hit someone who made me angry, was punished just as severely as if I actually did hit them. In our house, the phrase "it's the thought that counts", didn't just apply to showing gratitude for a gift you received.