If it ends for one, it ends for all?

A

AzPolyAnna

New member
Hello my fellow poly fam... Here is my dilemma...

I am married to my husband, my best friend. We've been together since 2002 and still going strong. We've had several experiences as "swingers" in the past and we opened our relationship about 5 years ago. It has been pretty amazing thus far. About 8 months ago, we decided to open our hearts as well. As we made so many friends in the lifestyle, we found ourselves wanting more substance in these experiences. More than friendship. So we decided to dip our toes into polyamorous waters.

We meet another couple and from the first meeting, it was just right. This other couple was smart, funny, loved close-by, had children as well. It just fit. But over the last couple of months, I've struggled with insecurity. This is not something I'm used to. My husband and his new partner have a bond that is truly something amazing. And I'm so happy for the two of them. But her husband is very different. He's quiet, reserved, not attentive or affectionate, not very sexual, doesn't talk much (there's no real substance to our convos), not flirtatious. He's been this way for the entire time I've met him. And I still managed to be smitten. He's handsome, educated, funny... Ugh, I'm crazy about him in that sense. I do love him. My husband and I are both in love with this couple. I realize that my insecurity comes from seeing how happy my husband is and knowing I'm really not. In further discussion with the other wife, she mentions to me that after being with him almost 12 years, this is all she knows and realizes now that she wants more from him too. My husband is amazing at making you feel like you're the most important Anna snagging person on the planet. And she has been lacking that for years. My issue is that I do not want to sacrifice my happiness anymore. The lack of attention and affirmation has given me a complex and hinders me from truly feeling compersion when it comes to my husband and his partner. The big question is, what do I do now? If I end things, it ends for everyone. But I'm too worried about hurting my husband and his partner. They are so madly in love, this would destroy them. I've spoken to my husband but he may tells me that I'm over thinking things. That being poly is about loving without limits and that I need to love my partner for who he is, not who I want him to be. My issue is that I believe my husband's advice is given by way of desperation to keep things enact for him and his partner. I don't want to hurt either of them. But I feel like I deserve to be loved. I want to feel the NRE (that feeling faded fast) that the two of them are still experiencing. I just want to be happy too. This is so confusing for me. I feel backed into a corner.
Any words of wisdom would be helpful. Thank you so much.
 
You are not required to be with the other man if you do not want to be. You are not obligated to date anyone. You can break up with him while still allowing your husband to date the woman. Their relationship decisions are theirs and yours are yours.
 
This is the problem when relationships depend on everyone being involved with everyone else. The most sensible strategy I think is for you to be free to find a lovely warm connection with someone outside of this quad. You are generally happy, you seem to want to support your husband and his new partner in their relationship, but you shouldn't have to be with someone who you are incompatible with in order to do this. I get that you are attracted and still like him, but if what you desire is someone more attentive, then there's no point hanging around hoping for him to change. If anything, you finding a connection elsewhere might even put your mind and heart at ease enough to just enjoy something more casual with this guy, without feeling like he has to be different, or needing THIS relationship to be something it is not.

You leaving the quad shouldn't mean that your husband and his girlfriend need to disband. If that is a rule that you have with your husband ('all of us involved, or none of us') then I can't imagine he would have a problem renegotiating that rule. If it's a rule the other couple has, then yes that makes things more complex, because it's something they would need to thrash out between themselves, and which you guys have no control over. At the end of the day though, if she chooses to leave your husband because her husband is unhappy that he no longer gets to be with you, then that is HER choice, and I would hope your husband would have the sense to see that.

Talk to your husband. Let him know that this arrangement is not satisfying you, but that as far as you are concerned, this doesn't have to be the end of him and her. Think about what you would need to change in your lives (childcare arrangements? physical dating space? ways to meet new people?) in order to allow you the opportunity to find something that works better for you, and allow him to still be able to see her. It might not be super easy, but negotiate. Work together. Try to think outside of the box. He might have to settle for seeing her slightly less, or you might need to ditch time you would have spent the four of you, or just with him, in order to strike out on your own and make it work. Most practical challenges can be overcome with a little ingenuity and goodwill all round though.

Of course, you aren't necessarily going to find something that blows your socks off right away. You might potentially have to deal with feelings of envy for a while - handle being 'single' in a sense, while your husband is double partnered - but if you don't effect some kind of change now, you are only going to feel more trapped and resentful over time. I'd advise you to make the break now, while you are all still all on friendly terms.
 
The fact of the matter is, I believe that would be a major issue for her and her husband. If things were to end between he and I, he would not be okay with his wife and my husband seeing each other while he is home by himself. That's just the way he is. He does not want to hear any details about the romance between his wife and my husband, whereas too I enjoy knowing how happy my husband is. My partner is very sexually conservative, and I am not. The fact that he has so many insecurities regarding his wife's relationship with my husband makes me question if he is really polyamorous at all. I have never in my life felt more like an option instead of a priority. And to me that is not ok. I am not necessarily worried about being single, nor would I be in a hurry to go out and find something again right away. But I know that ending the relationship with him would be a deal-breaker for my partner and his wife. He is not okay with seeing another couple and less they are seeing the couple at the same time. This being my first polyamorous experience, I know I have a lot to learn. And because I dove head-first into this relationship not knowing what to expect I've learned that they are going to be times and decisions that are tough. I communicate as much as I possibly can although that doesn't seem to make too much of a difference. I can't seem to get through to my partner, and from what I understand his wife can't either. I don't want to disrupt their happiness but I don't want to hinder my own. Swinging as it seems, is far less complicated. Although I know deep down that is not what I want. I am polyamorous and I am proud to be. My friends know my family knows and they are all supportive. I love this couple, I love everything that comes with it. The relationship with my partner's wife we are very very close. The relationship and love I have and feel for their children. I love our pod. And I suppose my fear is that if I continue this any longer it's just going to hurt everyone works. Namely myself.
 
Hmm. It sounds like someone needs to call a spade a spade though. He's not happy. He's not feeling secure. And you're not happy either. It seems like he's being reluctantly dragged into a polyamorous relationship that he doesn't quite have the skills to manage, and that is always going to end up blowing up in someone's face. This is something that they need to sort out in their relationship, preferably before involving other people. You already know yourself that nothing you can say or do with him will fix his insecurity. And to be honest, it sounds like he has reasons to be insecure. If his wife is all NRE gaga with your husband, and he is finding that both of the women in his life find him a little cold and unadventurous in bed, then I can see all the necessary ingredients there for some major comparison-making with your husband, resulting in lots of envy and jealousy.

You can't be the band-aid, or the one who 'takes one for the team' indefinitely. You say you love them both, so that kind of begs the question of what exactly is it that you want? I might be wrong, but to me it sounds like one of the key underlying issues here for you is that there is currently a mismatch between your expectations, of both the kind of polyamorous life you want to lead, and of the kind of man he is, and reality. You like this guy, love him (platonically?) even, but he doesn't make you feel special and desired. Could you not still be free to find someone who is willing to make you a priority outside the quad, and maintain a more honest 'I like you, I like hooking up with you occasionally, but I don't want to see you as often' kind of deal with him? It sounds like that would at least bring some balance into things. If it's the sense of obligation that's getting to you, a feeling that you have to put on a happy face and hook up with him just to give your husband and metamour time together, then you simply must put your foot down. It's okay for you and him to just be close friends. For you to spend time together whilst your partners are all loved up with each other, but you should never feel under pressure to be all romantic as well. Each relationship within the quad has to be allowed to find it's own level.

The real issue here is that he is not comfortable with his wife being with your husband. I hope you can see that. Don't feel guilty for calling out the elephant in the room. In the long run, everyone will be better for getting things out in the open, and if it means that he and his wife need to close their relationship while they work on stuff together, or if it means that he and his wife realise they are not compatible and need to divorce, well, rest assured in your own mind that those things would almost certainly have happened eventually anyway. Every single person needs to be able to withdraw their consent to participate in a relationship at any time, or else it's not a relationship, it's some fucked up kind of abusive servitude.
 
Are you and this other couple both new to poly and both coming from the swinging lifestyle? My understanding of swinging is that it's very common for couples to have to date other couples, where in poly that is generally not common. I'm wondering if you both are still forcing a lot of swinger rules/requirements onto your poly lifestyle. You mentioned that you think swinging was easier, but it actually sounds like you're making poly harder by trying to make it like swinging, which I personally think sounds harder due to all of the additional rules that so many couples seem to have (of course, I'm sure it all depends on the person/couple in both lifestyles).

Either way, you all really need to have a convo and come clean about what the expectations are and where to go from there. You definitely can't take one for the team, and if the husband has been this way for his entire marriage and he's also this way with you, then it's time to accept that it is just WHO HE IS. You can't expect him to change because he doesn't fit your dating style, nor can his wife. And if that doesn't work for you, it's time to move on. If you and your husband are ok with dating others who aren't couples, then your husband could express that he wants to keep seeing his g/f and the relationships shouldn't depend on both of them working (especially if you're not dating the other woman and the guys aren't dating!). The other husband can go out and get his own g/f if he wants. Or if he's not poly, he can stay mono and let his wife have a b/f. Or if he's not happy with any of that, then those 2 as a couple need to decide if they end everything or if she's going to fight to be able to keep her relationship with her b/f (your husband) and then her husband can choose to accept it or end the marriage.

Either way, there is some basic lacking in compatibility and trying to get anyone to change who they are and dragging things out while waiting for that is probably only going to end in even bigger heartache in the long run. Sorry that the response isn't a happier one :(
 
Thank you for all your feedback. I think it's difficult because with my partner, he definitely likes the convenience of having a "stable" relationship with me. In the beginning we all decided that since this was a first poly experience for us all, we would refrain from seeing anyone else. I think I'm beginning to regret that. I know that deep down I love him. But I also know that I am not getting what I want from this. I do not expect him to change who he is. I sat down with my husband today and tried to talk about this. He said that he isn't going to be without her (not that I ever expected him to) but he thinks I'm being unfair in wanting to move on. I think it's because he knows that will end things with my partner's wife (their rules). He claims they've spoken about this scenario in depth, and decided that they are too in love to be without each other. Not sure what that means exactly for me. I don't expect him to stop seeing her. But I do know that her husband will not allow that relationship to continue if he is not with me. It's a bit of a clusterfuck. I'm feeling very torn.
 
Unless a couple agrees that each other has veto power, which most people in poly are also very against, it's not really the husband's decision whether his wife and or can't continue to see your husband. She can do so if she wants, all the husband can do is choose to accept it or decide that he won't stay with her if she continues the relationship (which would then prompt her to decide is she'd rather continue to date your husband or her husband). Point being, you can only make decisions about your own relationships, and shouldn't dictate your partner's.... That's the collective "you" since I know you specifically aren't doing that.
 
The big question is, what do I do now? If I end things, it ends for everyone. But I'm too worried about hurting my husband and his partner. They are so madly in love, this would destroy them.
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I think you could believe in their ability to handle stuff in Life. Not predict doom things.

YOUR STUFF

Keep it to facts at hand:

  • You care about this partner, but he's not a person you want to keep dating.
  • He doesn't meet your needs as a dating partner.
  • You want to stop dating him. So stop.

I think you could break up with him gently but firmly. Could let the relationship shape change and be his friend if he's willing. Otherwise, be a polite ex. So you can be free FROM this dating situation you do not like.

Then tell your husband and his GF that you are willing for them to keep dating and you are supportive.

It is not your job to sacrifice your happiness for other people. I think you know that deep down. I also think you could have some faith. Have the confidence that acting in good character will yield the best outcome even when you cannot see how. Because to keep on dating this guy you don't want to date any more? That yields what? You stay unhappy. Because you sell yourself short, and that behavior is not in keeping with good character. You also sell him short -- he deserves to be with a partner that really wants to be with him and gets him and his reserved style.

Why sell him or your own self short? You don't seem to want that, so stop the behavior. Stop dating him. Then wait and let others adjust to the change. Even if you don't quite see how those changes will be right now. Trust that they can handle changes and deal with their own set of problems/stuff.

You being afraid that they cannot handle their set of problems? That's NOT a reason or an excuse for you to not be dealing with YOUR set of problems. I encourage you to deal with your stuff and be up front about it. Then let the others handle their stuff.

OTHER PEOPLE STUFF

Your husband stuff

I sat down with my husband today and tried to talk about this. He said that he isn't going to be without her (not that I ever expected him to) but he thinks I'm being unfair in wanting to move on. I think it's because he knows that will end things with my partner's wife (their rules). He claims they've spoken about this scenario in depth, and decided that they are too in love to be without each other.
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Your husband sounds like he wants you to keep dating Other Husband because then he doesn't have to deal with HIS set of problems.

When it is totally fair for him to have to deal with his own problems. If he were not married at all, and this situation were a poly V? And then the husband decided he wanted to Close now for whatever reason? He would have to deal with this then. He would have to ask his GF what she wants to do. Break up with him or end it with her husband. And then respect her decision. Or he could break up with her in order to spare her having to make a tough decision.

It is no different now. Your husband could still deal with his own problems. Rather than try to avoid dealing with them or recruit you to enable him to avoid them.

He claims they've spoken about this scenario in depth, and decided that they are too in love to be without each other.
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Since they are too in love to be without each other? It sounds sorted out already. If asked to choose, she's sticking with Open. She does not want Closed marriage.

So why is your husband guilt tripping you into continuing something you no longer want? It sounds like they already know their Plan B. And as your spouse, I would think he would want you healthy and happy, not unhealthy and unhappy doing things you really don't want to be doing. What's up with that? :confused:

The Other Husband Stuff

But I do know that her husband will not allow that relationship to continue if he is not with me.
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I think you mean the other husband would not likely want to poly any more. He could then ask his wife to Close or divorce him. Which is fair for him to ask. He is in charge of his own consent and what he does and does not participate in. If he now wants Closed marriage? He can choose that for himself.

He has to sort out if he and his wife still line up or not -- so he could sort out his stuff. ASK her. Does she want Open marriage or Closed? Do they still have compatible wants?

The GF Stuff

And then GF would have to give her answer. What's unfair about that? If someone asks her a question, she could answer it.

And since she's so in love with your husband she doesn't want to break up with him? She could choose to end it with her husband. She can keep dating your husband. Her ex-husband can now pursue Closed marriage with someone else who wants that model. To me it sounds sorted out... just not laid out plain on the table.

  • First best choice -- be with husband and BF
  • Second best choice -- be with BF and divorce so her ex can pursue Closed marriage with someone else.

She could get on with sorting her stuff.

QUAD STUFF: CLEAR COMMUNICATION

And I suppose my fear is that if I continue this any longer it's just going to hurt everyone works. Namely myself.
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I think it would be to everyone's benefit to lay all cards out plain in the table and give clear communication rather than keep floating along uneasily and not saying anything. People are not mind readers. It is your job to make them aware of what's going on with you.

If you have to be the first one to lay your cards down on the table? Lay them down then. Then at least you are holding up YOUR end of the stick and being up front with your quad.

Galagirl
 
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At this point, I'd feel like my body was the fee my husband paid this woman's husband for time with his wife. For some people, this might be their kink. But if it was, they'd be happy in it and you don't sound like you are. That needs to matter to your husband too. He may just be too love buzzed up to see what he is really asking of you.
And if you say no and this guy insists on vetoing them - that isn't your fault. You don't control him. You might however, want to find out what this woman and your husband have in mind as a contingency plan should her husband throw on the breaks.
 
It does sound like your husband is pimping you out to his GF's husband to placate him, and thus keep everyone happy but you. You have the right to your own body, and your husband has no right to insist you date someone you don't want to.
 
Hi AzPolyAnna,

It seems to me that the four of you have agreed to rules that are suffocating you. If it were not so, you could at least date outside the quad in addition to being involved with your partner and your husband. Could a new set of rules be negotiated?

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of you being used against your will, which is what I think is happening. You do not want to be involved with your partner, but here you are, involved with him so that he won't veto his wife's relationship with your husband. Surely this can't be a good thing?

Unless something changes, you will be a participant in this scenario for the rest of your life. My suggestion is to see that something changes. If they won't change (and I don't think they will), enact changes of your own.

Not that it's your (or my) call to make, but I feel that your partner's wife should divorce him. Just my 2¢ ...

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
If it were not so, you could at least date outside the quad in addition to being involved with your partner and your husband. Could a new set of rules be negotiated?
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(Date a new person outside the quad) would not solve the problem of (I don't want to date Other Husband any more). The problem still remains.

(Stop dating Other Husband) it what solves (I don't want to date Other Husband.)

If I were the Other Husband?

  • I would not want my wife staying with me in marriage out of pity or something. Like she needs her BF to "endure" marriage with me. If we've grown apart, I rather accept, and sort that stuff out and divorce. Have it be cleaner.
  • I also would not want my GF staying with me out of pity or something either. Like she dates her own husband, and her non-quad partner for fun. But dates me from pity so I don't get "left out" or something. Or dates me from obligation to her husband so that her husband gets access to my wife. That's not good feeling or "clean."
  • I would want my partner to be with me because they want to really be with ME... not be tossing me scraps. It's not dignified.

I think this quad is best off laying all cards on table and lining up what lines up and ending what simply doesn't work any more. Be more honest with selves and each other and treat each other with dignity and respect as they sort it out.

Galagirl
 
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I am not so naive normally. This being my first poly experience, I tried to keep a very open mind. But I feel as though I need to draw the line. I need to feel like he (my partner) wants me around, is happy to see me and genuinely wants me to be with him. A random text here and there is about the extent of him explaining his feelings. And I know now, that I need, want and deserve more. I need attention and affection. Without it, I know it is waring on my self-esteem. (and by no affection, I mean we hold hands on occasion) I've got to make some tough decisions.
 
You and your hubby deccided that, as a couple, you must date another couple. Well, you got stuck with the dud and now you want out. This reminds me of high school, when the cute guy who had a nice car wouldn't take me to the drive-in unless I brought someone along to fix up with his dud of a best friend.

Why the fuck does hubby think he has any say about whom you want to be in a sexual relationship with? You're not his whore who is expected to keep his girlfriend's dud of a husband occupied while he diddles her - who does he think he is to even complain about the fact that you are unhappy with the situation? Not very compassionate of him.

You keep saying you love this guy, even though you haven't spoken about him very lovingly. I wonder if you really do love him, or have you convinced yourself that you do because that's what's expected in poly. Look, you are an autonomous human being who can make your own choices in life - even if you are married. Dump the dud and let the chips fall where they may.

Welcome to grown-up polyamory!
 
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