Is it irresponsible to tell someone in a poly/mono relationship "it can work"?

[GalaGirl]

What I'm going through is hurting, badly.

I don't know your details but I'm sorry you are hurting.

"instead of giving advice to new posters wanting to start a poly/mono relationship, we start asking the difficult questions first. "Are you prepared for your relationship to end the day you drop the poly bomb?" "Are you mentally stable enough to handle your relationship (and that may mean being mentally strong enough to walk away) WHEN things go bad?" "Are you prepared, if your partner doesn't want to be part of this, to be the 'bad guy' for the rest of the relationship? What are you going to do when your partner throws out 'but you wanted to be poly and fuck other people' as a trump card in every argument you're going to have for the rest of your relationship?" "If you're married and have mutual assets or kids....do you know a good divorce attorney?"

Is that what's going on with you personally?

If so, that's not general discussion. You might want to have a different thread for that.

I think the question that needs to be asked is "is the possibility that poly/mono might work worth the potential damage to my life/relationship/mental health if it doesn't?" And to answer that question, we need to be honest about both the possibility it can work, and the potential damage it might do if it doesn't work.

I am confused with how you phrase this. Let me try putting this in my own words so I know I am getting this right. You correct me if I am not, ok? I quote just to visually block it off.

You are saying...

I, OnceAndFuture, think that original posters could ask themselves:

"If I choose to enter a mono/poly network? There will be these risks to my life/relationship/mental health if it doesn't work out. Am I willing to take the risk?"​

I think they need to be honest with themselves about the possibility that it might not work out. Not get all "tunnel vision" only seeing the outcome they wish for.

I also think is the responsibility of the forum people at large to point out to the OP when they seem to be jumping in with tunnel visions/unrealistic expectations/lack of preparation.

Is that what you are saying?

If so? Then I agree that the OP could be aware of their own preference bias blinding them to other possible outcomes. They could go with "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst" thing so they are not caught by surprise if it does not play out as they hope. If they find they are not willing to take the risk? Don't go there.

If an OP posts seeking opinions? They are going to get them. Some will read the post and think it has a chance of working out. Some will think it doesn't. Hopefully forum people also give them feedback they can use. (Whether the OP takes it on board or not is up to the OP.)

it feels like a lot of the advice I got and see here assumes that I'm going to lose $20 if I lose my bet. But to me it feels more like $1,000. To you it might feel like a million. That's why I think one of the first questions I'd ask someone considering a poly/mono relationship would be "how much do you think you can lose?"

To me, the first question to ask is "Does this go against my own grain?" Because if it does, there is no point in doing further analysis to me. I'm just not doing it. I am not willing to subsume myself to a relationship. If we are just not compatible, we are not compatible. I am not going bend myself into pretzels or shrink myself into a box just so I can be with somebody romantically.

I would like to think any OP would be asking themselves that first. "Would entering a mono/poly model go against my own grain? Does it bump against my personal preferences or personal limitations?"

If it doesn't go against my own grain, then I'll consider doing further situation analysis.

• "What are the pros and cons to doing this at this time?" at bare minimum.
• SWOT analysis if I want to think about it more deeply

I tend to assume adults know how assess a situation for themselves. And if they want help doing it, they can ask. There is nothing wrong in seeking more feedback or asking someone to check your thinking.

So, I mean, what are the chances of a poly/mono relationship succeeding? Even? Poor? Or really, really low? I think we all know the answer here to be honest.

I use these terms.

• monoamorous: person wants to love 1 sweetie
  
• monogamous: person wants to participate in networks of 2 people max. Them and the partner only.

If a person is monoamorous, but flexible about relationship shape? And they enter a mono-poly thing?

• I think they could do fine loving their sweetie in a mono-poly model. Maybe as a V-arm person in a "V."

The mono-poly model shape itself is not posing a big problem. So the "success" of the grouping would depend on the skills of the participants. So I think the chances might be about even -- as likely to work out as not.

If a person is monoamorous AND monogamous? If they choose to enter a mono-poly thing?

• I think they have gone against their own grain if they choose to participate in a mono-poly model when they KNOW they only like monogamous shaped ones.
• I think they might love their sweetie, but I don't think that love is enough to sustain them in a model they are not really into.

Does not matter what super skills the people bring to the table. The model shape DOES pose a big problem. The monogamous person is not shopping at the right store.

What are the odds that they will find "successful relationship" there? Almost zero. One must "shop at the right store" to up the odds for success.

I might be a great knitter. But if I go shopping for yarn at the auto parts store? I am not likely to find what I want to knit a soft green hat. I should go to the yarn store. My odds would be better. Now, the color I want might not be in stock. But at least I had a better shot finding yarn here than at the auto part store!

I think it is the responsibility of the monogamous person to avoid entering non-monogamous models. They know what model they prefer. Why go against their own grain? Not even for love of the Sweetie should the enter into or stay in things that go against their own grain. Love is not enough to sustain a relationship long term. There is more to deep compatibility than just loving the person.

I also think it is the responsibility of the poly partner to NOT agree. If they have come know their partner is (monoamorous AND monogamous)? If the poly person is not willing to be in a Closed model with them? Then they could do the loving thing and break up with them. If they see their partner offer to go against their own grain just to avoid a break up? The poly person could say "I see that you love me a lot. But not even for me should you go against your own grain. YOU might be willing to participate like that, but I am not. I love you. We still need to break up."

It would suck in the short term (because who loves breaking up?) but it is the loving thing to do in the long term for their monogamous partner who is suffering. Putting it off and extending their pain doesn't sound loving to me at all.

Galagirl

 

[Hannahfluke]

Also, you need to consider the opposite of what you pointed out when you said that the people who try to open up to mono/poly and fail are unlikely to stick around here. How many people are living successful mono/poly lives who don't have the desire to come to a poly message board and discuss things? Not everyone is going to want or need support on a message board. For example, in my polycule, which has about a dozen people just between the people my husband and I date and those people's partners (so three levels, I'm not going to go further than that because it gets exponentially larger quite quickly), as far as I know, I'm the only one that posts to this message board. I also have a fairly large circle of poly friends and none of them post here. So our sample is a bit limited anyway.

 

[Tinwen]

Galagirl, your giving excellent frameworks, which are so hard to apply in practice I admire your rationality when it comes to relationships - I'm not even close and I guess I'll never will be. Do you really do a SWAT analysis when you're handling an emotionaly difficult situation?

I tend to assume adults know how assess a situation for themselves. And if they want help doing it, they can ask. There is nothing wrong in seeking more feedback or asking someone to check your thinking.

I guess OnceAndFuture's question could be also reworded like this: If someone comes and does ask for help assessing their situation and/or the risks of making a bold move like coming out to their spouse, are forum people giving them useful help, or are forum people misleading them (as to how big the risk is)? Do we know our own bias?

 

[dingedheart]

You can't apply odds to opening a relationship, Once. It's not like a horse race where you don't intimately know the horses. You know your spouse (if you don't, then why the hell are you even married?) It IS like a horse race in that it depends on each individual horse, on the environment, on the jockey, on the horse's relationship to the jockey, on the track, etc, etc, etc. There is no good way to predict. It doesn't matter if 99% of mono/poly relationships fail, there's still 1% that don't. And, even if the marriage or relationship ends, the ending generally cannot be solely attributed to the poly/mono relationship. There are sooooo many other factors that come into play...the health of the relationship between the partners, the communication skills of each, the emotional maturity and ability to regulate their own emotions, etc, etc, etc. And, there's the fact that roughly half of marriages end in divorce anyway....and some of those that don't, probably should. People grow and change. Sometimes that growth and change brings more intimacy, more love, sometimes that growth and change pulls or drifts people apart. It's just part of life. It's sad, it hurts, but it can bring so much growth and happiness if we allow it. Or, it can turn into bitterness and anger, if we allow it. It's all up to us. Pain is inevitable, Once. It's just part of life. Trying to avoid pain just results in avoiding life.

ETA: On the odds thing, I had a reaction to an anesthetic many years ago....the anesthesiologist was really pissed off because he said that particular reaction happens in less than 1% of cases....I was that less than 1%....what happened with the other 99+% had no bearing on me. That's the point I'm trying to convey. Doesn't matter how it affects every other person, only matters how it affects me. And, I'm the best person to judge that.

Would you buy a ticket on an airline that had a 80-99% crash rate ?? Would the trill be worth it ?

 

[CTF]

Wow, this thread is just as busy as the the other one.

So much to address, yet so little time. I'll touch on what I can, and address the rest as time permits. First of all, we need to dispel the myth that half of all marriages end in divorce. Those stats are from the 80s, and have drastically changed since then. In any case, stats mean nothing to the individual circumstance. Not only are they difficult to obtain, since there aren't a whole lot of mono/poly success rate studies out there (although I'd be willing to bet that they fail well over 90% of the time), it does nothing to change the opinion of the individual's outlook on their preferred dynamic. Hell, you could have a 99% success rate & I'd still have no interest in trying it.

What I find fascinating from some of you who disagree with my approach, is how so much of it was taken out of context, especially in regards to my "cruel/negative" remarks. First off, I am well aware that the bomb was already dropped. And while I was in part, trying to offer some insight into what his gf was going through, I was also touching on his own comment where he expressed that maybe he shouldn't have said anything at all. And based on his remarks where he said he felt pretty confident she'd be against it, I agreed with him. He probably shouldn't have said anything IF keeping his relationship together was MORE IMPORTANT than exploring poly.

Keep in mind, that it was my point where a mono partner does not want to know their partner is poly unless they believe that they have to pursue additional relationships, in which case, they're willing to end their current one if need be- which caused a few of the poly die hards to jump on me, that triggered this "spirited" debate. Yet, you folks act like I was seeking some newbie out to bash him over the head. This was not the case. While it's true that there were some strawberry no words & opinions, none were anything short of true, or at least probable in his case.

As for the topic in a general sense... personally, I don't see it as always being the right was to go about it. I see coming out as only being necessary if he/she is insistent on moving forward. Otherwise the only thing it accomplishes, is the severe wounding of a partner one claims to love. Like the Onceandfuture stated in regards to the symptoms, you're talking about potentially, a lifetime of emotional trauma. The only thing I've ever done, was stress how vital it is to take those into account, and be willing to accept the consequences.

 

[GalaGirl]

Do you really do a SWAT analysis when you're handling a emotionaly difficult situation?

Not for everything, but for the really hard things? That's how I get through the emotionally difficult situation.

First I figure out if I even want to go there/take the thing on. Because if I don't want to go there? I won't.

If I AM going to go there? Then I break it down into parts, figure out what order I am going to address it in, what tools I might need to address it, where to gather the tools, what other supports might be needed. Then check if I am still willing to go there. If so? I get on with addressing it.

If someone comes and does ask for help assessing their situation and/or the risks of making a bold move like coming out to their spouse, are forum people giving them useful help, or are forum people misleading them (as to how big the risk is)? Do we know our own bias?

I think forum people can only speak from their own perspectives and values. People all value different things. Whether or not the feedback is useful to the OP has to be determined by the OP against their full picture situation and against what they value.

Ex:

I'm ok and enjoy being on my own. So to me? Being on my own is valued and welcome. The idea that I would be on my own after a break up doesn't much upset me. I have a friend who HATES to be alone. She values being partnered. So she will stay partnered with someone even if they are not all that compatible as a means to avoid being alone. Being alone upsets her.

I don't get that. But I'm not her. I don't have to get it. I'm not esp nosy so I don't ask her how she came to be this way. I figure she knows her full picture situation on that. I just have to accept that this is how she is at this point in time.

When she was over here unloading all this relationship problem stuff, I told her if I were in her shoes, I would break up with the guy. Take a time out and date again when ready. Option 1.

But knowing that she hates to be alone? I guessed that maybe finding someone else to date first [/I ]before dropping the incompatible partner would be better for her. They weren't exclusive, so it wouldn't be breaking agreements. And then she wouldn't have to do the "be on my own" part. Option 2.

Or if she had another idea for a solution, I could try to help her map that out. Option 3.

I gave her three loose options figuring she could choose which way she wanted to go based on what was the most doable/realistic for HER. Because it is her in this situation, not me.

Galagirl

 

[AutumnLeaves]

To address the question in the OP, no, I don't think it's irresponsible to tell polyamorous people that being in a relationship with a monogamous person won't work, because it can. Sure, you can say you don't think it would be likely. You can say that it doesn't work 90% of the time in your personal experience. And you can say "I wish I hadn't been told." But you can't speak for monogamous people everywhere. No group of people with a single common trait are going to be monolithic. So sure, tell people that in your opinion it won't work and you hope they've considered that before telling coming out of the closet to their mono partner. Because they absolutely should consider that no matter what they do or say, it might not work.

But whether it's irresponsible to say it can work? No. Because it can work. The possibility exists. And there are ways to handle opening up that make it more likely, even if it won't work in every single case.

Beyond that, all this talk about probabilities and so on is just speculation. The plural of anecdote is not data.

 

[vinsanity0]

I'm not saying that nobody here has ever said "poly/mono might not work." I think the question that needs to be asked is "is the possibility that poly/mono might work worth the potential damage to my life/relationship/mental health if it doesn't?" And to answer that question, we need to be honest about both the possibility it can work, and the potential damage it might do if it doesn't work. Saying that something "can" work is meaningless. Do we mean "can" as in "you can buy a ticket to the latest action movie" or as in "you can win the lottery"? One is almost bound to happen (barring a blockbuster sellout), the other is almost impossible.

Say I made you a deal that if you correctly picked the winner of a random horse race, I'd give you $20, but if you picked wrong, you would give me $20. I further tell you that the horse "Poly Pocket" is a 1-4 favorite for the race (i.e., Poly Pocket is favored to win the race 80% of the time). You'd think, hey, that's a pretty good deal: 80% of the time I get $20, but only 20% of the time I lose 20%. After you make the bet, "Mono Nuclear Osis" wins the race. Although you lost, you're not too upset about it...then you read the paper and find out that it was actually Mono Nuclear Osis who was actually the 1-4 favorite, not Poly Pocket. When you confront me about the bet, I explain that "I never told you Poly Pocket was guaranteed to win" and that there was always a chance you'd lose. Needless to say, you'd still have the right to be upset with me. I wasn't honest about your chances of success. So, I mean, what are the chances of a poly/mono relationship succeeding? Even? Poor? Or really, really low? I think we all know the answer here to be honest.

It feels to me that sometimes the advice that's given to new people in a poly/mono relationship is like advice given by lottery winners to potential lottery players. They were successful, after all, so they're hardly going to tell people not to follow their example. They're associating with fellow lottery winners now, so they can point to a whole bunch of other people who were successful at the lottery. Lastly, they've stopped talking to lottery losers, so they have a mistaken view of proportionally few people actually win the lottery. And that's what seems to be going on here. If it seems like a lot of people here have a positive view on the possibility of success of poly/mono relationships, it's because those are the people who are most likely to stay here and keep posting. People who got hurt in a poly/mono relationship are not generally likely to stay on a board called "polyamory.com".

(Except, I guess, people like me who are trying to exorcise some demons and maybe help a few others on the way.)

I didn't remember your situation so I took a quick look at your blog. You came on here saying the Signal suggested poly to you. As I skimmed it I saw that she kept swinging wildly from yes to no. I also saw plenty of people telling you it wasn't going to work.

So now you are blaming a forum. The reality (as I see it) is that you wanted it to work so you ignored all the warning signs and advice that was contrary to what you wanted.

The thing about this forum is there are people with a lot of different perspectives. I'm not going to single people out by name. You have the guy who is mono and in a V. You have the woman who has two mono husbands. You have the anti-poly guy. You have a lot of people who have gone through a lot of different configurations. They all give advice based on their experience. This isn't a panel of professional poly counselors. It's up to the asker to sort through all that.

Most of the advice I see given out here is to do what feels right to you. "Be true to yourself", things like that. I don't think that's a bad thing.

 

[Shaya]

I feel that this thread started as an excellent question and is moving into territory that can feel threatening. I recognise we're all adults but we're also all human and some of us are hurting badly.

Let's focus on helping others. The opening poster, despite his massive recent hurt and hospitalisations, has come back to polyamory.com, essentially, to try to help others in his similar situation. In his words, "to balance the viewpoint" of happy polyamory so that others don't end up as hurt as he is. CTF is similar. I'm more of a middle ground though I started like that too. Many on this forum would be pro polyamory. All of us are here, reading posts from newbies, trying to help newbies.

Let's focus on our common goal of helping and refrain from drawing on other people's personal situations.

So, I want to propose a big project that will rival the Q&A page of morethantwo.com in terms of impact on new polyamorists. I'm really interested in making a list of things that would help our most vulnerable population of polyamorists - the ones attempting it for the first time. The ones brought up monogamous by society but identifying as polyamorous. A wealth of information online makes them so excited and yet equips them with so little life tools to do polyamory. "Aw hell, there's no road map" is a great saying that YouAreHere should totally copyright. I'm not sure I am in a position to do a road map. I'm not sure anybody is, given how diverse polyamory is. But we can at least do a "are you suitable for polyamory?"

So my big project proposal would be to create a list, as a forum, on what factors make you suitable for polyamory. My own personal interest would be in helping previously monogamous couples in a long term relationship consider whether they would be suitable to opening to polyamory and what factors might contribute to their eventual success or failure. I started a list earlier in this thread. Can anyone help me build on this list please given my inexperience with polyamory? I feel this is totally a project worth building, and we can just link people to this thread anytime a newbie asks "should I polybomb my partner?" If they are ticking all the "you're going to fail" boxes, we can kindly tell them that they should be rethinking their options.

In summary, the answer to "is it ethical to..." depends on what the answer you're giving them is, and on whether that individual has a good, average or poor chance of succeeding. I admit exact probabilities are unknown, but we all know that there are certain starting conditions in a monogamous relationship that would make a transition to polyamory improbable. Let's do something with a high impact. Let's make this list. I don't have the experience to do this alone. Would anyone like to help me?

 

[Hannahfluke]

I don't think we're moving into dangerous territory, I think we're trying to make sure that we don't paint anyone with a broad brush. Both CTF and OnceandFuture seem to be of the opinion that if you're poly, every viewpoint you offer is only going to be positive and we're never going to say that poly is a bad idea. I don't like broad generalizations about people based on a single label, whether that label is poly or mono.

I pointed out the fact that I remember people telling OnceandFuture that it was probably a bad idea for him to continue poly while his wife refused to take responsibility for her own emotions not to hurt but to point out that people didn't just tell him that poly is wonderful and perfect and will work for everyone, which seemed to be his basic premise for this post.

I also don't like CTF's assertion that no one who is poly can possibly understand the horrible rejection he feels from his wife just telling him she's poly. He's just plain wrong. Being poly doesn’t protect you from heartache, it often opens you up to it. And if you want to talk about a feeling of rejection, how about when your husband of over 20 years tells you that he'd rather you were more like his girlfriend he's been with for 5 years. How about the feeling of rejection you feel when a few years later, your husband, who you've been with for 24 years of marriage and two years of dating before marriage decides that his girlfriend is the most important person in his life, he moves in with her, and starts to break everything you ever thought would be a constant in your life into little pieces? Just because I also have a boyfriend doesn't mean that any of these things that have happened to me are any less painful than they'd be if we were still monogamous. Sure, my boyfriend provides support, but it's not like he's interchangeable with my husband, which would be the only way I could see that I wouldn't feel any loss at the change in my marriage, and since that's not true, I do feel lost and rejected. Relationships can be hurtful to the people in them regardless of whether both people are poly, both are mono, or one is mono and one is poly.

And, for the record, I think I've seen everyone who posts regularly give advice at one time or another that it doesn't seem like opening up a relationship is a good idea. Even Kevin has given that advice and he tends to be Mr. Switzerland most of the time.

 

[Tinwen]

Let's do something with a high impact. Let's make this list.

Shaya, here is a great article as a contribution to this question.
I suggest if you want to go down this road, create a new thread. This one is starting from the assumption that something is wrong (nothing bad with discussing that), not from and intention to build.
However, I think it's also important to stress that 1) no-one's gonna check all the boxes for a perfect nonmonogamist, and 2) it should be people searching for their own relationship style, not changing (too much) to fit a relationship style. Some people are already trying to hard to live up to ideals.

 

[Marcus]

I feel that this thread started as an excellent question and is moving into territory that can feel threatening.

I think this thread started as one board member telling other board members (as a group) how they ought to be responding to questions. I disagree fully, from top to bottom, with the assertion that the members of this board are presenting information in an unhelpful, inaccurate, or dangerous way, let alone from a unified front.

The OPs assertion is coming from one very specific set of experiences, fortunately this viewpoint is completely inaccurate. There are far too many varied approaches and personalities on this board for the assertion that "you poly folk" are giving advice wrong. It is impossible for that to be true, as we can't agree on anything, including what a poly/mono new person ought to do. So what happens is several people chime in, most of them are constructive and helpful, and the new folks need to be adults and take the information for what it is... free advice from a bunch of strangers on the internet.

Let's focus on helping others... All of us are here, reading posts from newbies, trying to help newbies. ... Let's focus on our common goal of helping and refrain from drawing on other people's personal situations.

I would like to point out that this is not why everyone is on this board. That might be why *you* are on these boards, but outside of that is just projection.

I am not here to be the counselor for married people whose spouses just cheated on them and told them they are "poly" (which is the primary reason new people come to this board). I come here to discuss relationship dynamics - I also give guidance where I think I might be helpful, but that's not my primary concern. I see most people who come through here as lost causes who are heading down a painful road where they will soon discover that they never knew their partners to begin with, and that will be the easiest of the lessons they will need to learn.

I suppose if I follow the OPs and our resident anti-polyamory posters advice, I should tell every new person exactly what I just said; I should pour as much gloom on them as possible. I just don't think it's constructive and I certainly couldn't fool myself into thinking I'm doing them a favor by doing that.

So my big project proposal would be to create a list, as a forum, on what factors make you suitable for polyamory.

I'm with Tinwin, include a preface that the traits listed are pulled from specific relationship approaches and no one person can or should try to "fit" into this model.

 

[OnceAndFuture]

I'm sorry I haven't been able to respond here--yesterday was a mess (I really have to start rejecting unpaid work) and today I've been called out of town. I'll be leaving in less than an hour, so I'm afraid I don't have much time now either.

I guess I've got a lot of questions and charges to answer, and I apologize I don't have the time to answer them now. I will answer one thing though: I'm not in any way "against" poly or any other form of relationship. After all, I came to this forum having been in a poly relationship six years ago, and while it was a very emotionally draining time for me, that was almost entirely because our partner The Star was a very emotionally draining person. I don't doubt it could have worked out under other circumstances, and I know from experience (and this board!) that polyamory can be healthy and positive. I'm just not convinced that poly/mono relationships are generally viable. Yes, they may work once in a blue moon, but I don't see the value of trying to claim otherwise. I just feel it's dangerous to try to give a false impression about that.

And I'm not angry at this forum. I think anybody who reads my blog here will realize that most of all I'm angry at myself, and at the circumstances largely beyond my control (the autism diagnosis, losing my job and the depression which followed from that) that led me to where I am now. I realize that anger has colored what I've posted here--I don't like the fact that anger is part of my life to some extent now, and I apologize for that.

 

[Hannahfluke]

I don't think we're moving into dangerous territory, I think we're trying to make sure that we don't paint anyone with a broad brush. Both CTF and OnceandFuture seem to be of the opinion that if you're poly, every viewpoint you offer is only going to be positive and we're never going to say that poly is a bad idea. I don't like broad generalizations about people based on a single label, whether that label is poly or mono.

I pointed out the fact that I remember people telling OnceandFuture that it was probably a bad idea for him to continue poly while his wife refused to take responsibility for her own emotions not to hurt but to point out that people didn't just tell him that poly is wonderful and perfect and will work for everyone, which seemed to be his basic premise for this post.

I also don't like CTF's assertion that no one who is poly can possibly understand the horrible rejection he feels from his wife just telling him she's poly. He's just plain wrong. Being poly doesn’t protect you from heartache, it often opens you up to it. And if you want to talk about a feeling of rejection, how about when your husband of over 20 years tells you that he'd rather you were more like his girlfriend he's been with for 5 years. How about the feeling of rejection you feel when a few years later, your husband, who you've been with for 24 years of marriage and two years of dating before marriage decides that his girlfriend is the most important person in his life, he moves in with her, and starts to break everything you ever thought would be a constant in your life into little pieces? Just because I also have a boyfriend doesn't mean that any of these things that have happened to me are any less painful than they'd be if we were still monogamous. Sure, my boyfriend provides support, but it's not like he's interchangeable with my husband, which would be the only way I could see that I wouldn't feel any loss at the change in my marriage, and since that's not true, I do feel lost and rejected. Relationships can be hurtful to the people in them regardless of whether both people are poly, both are mono, or one is mono and one is poly.

And, for the record, I think I've seen everyone who posts regularly give advice at one time or another that it doesn't seem like opening up a relationship is a good idea. Even Kevin has given that advice and he tends to be Mr. Switzerland most of the time.

I hope Kevin knows the last line was said in jest and knows I like and respect him.

As for the rest of it, I came back to this feeling like I had posted like Marvin the paranoid android from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy "life, don't talk to me about life." I hadn’t meant to but apparently yesterday was a day I felt like I needed to speak up about untrue assumptions and sharing my story, or part of it anyway, seemed like the way to do that. We're all imperfect people, relating to other imperfect people, and, no matter what our relationship configuration looks like, this can lead to hurt feelings, rejection, etc. On the flip side, it can also lead to joy, connection, etc. It all depends on the people interacting the most, while the relationship style tends to be the background that relating happens against.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

So my big project proposal would be to create a list, as a forum, on what factors make you suitable for polyamory. My own personal interest would be in helping previously monogamous couples in a long term relationship consider whether they would be suitable to opening to polyamory and what factors might contribute to their eventual success or failure. I started a list earlier in this thread. Can anyone help me build on this list please given my inexperience with polyamory? I feel this is totally a project worth building, and we can just link people to this thread anytime a newbie asks "should I polybomb my partner?" If they are ticking all the "you're going to fail" boxes, we can kindly tell them that they should be rethinking their options.

While I'm sure a lot of newbies would certainly appreciate a section like this, I think it's VERY hard to predict who is "suitable for polyamory". People are complicated, relationships are complicated.

My real concern, though, it how we would even begin to define success and failure. Is an established couple attempting polyamory only successful if they remain primary/nesting partners and continue to practice polyamory for the duration of their relationship? There are soooo many possible outcomes when opening a relationship, and most of them fall between "nesting couple living poly happily every after" and "marriage falling apart, leaving both partners miserable forever".

Maybe one or both tries polyamory, but then the couple decides to be monogamous again. Maybe both love being poly, but end their original relationship and move on to other partners. Maybe the poly bomb destroys the marriage, but eventually the two individuals are happier apart, one living poly, the other mono. Maybe they stay together, in a mono/poly relationship, but one or both is unhappy and staying out of fear or guilt.

I tend to see transitions and changes as successful if they improve the happiness of the people involved. But I would guess a lot of new visitors to the forum would assume the end of their existing relationship should be considered failure, even if it's the option that would bring happiness eventually.

Just something I think we should all think about before having conversations about the odds of success.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from Hannahfluke):

"I hope Kevin knows the last line was said in jest and knows I like and respect him."

No worries Hannah, we're cool.

@ GFT ... I tend to agree with you, it would be hard or impossible to tabulate success or failure in relationships, much less put together a one-size-fits-all list that can predict success or failure in any individual.

@ Shaya ... I will suggest one thing to be added to this prospective list, the one thing I can think of right now. "Can you temper your feelings, thoughts, and actions in the midst of NRE?" Getting too carried away with NRE is arguably the most common reason why things go badly in polyamorous relationships.

@ OAF ... I have no idea how rare/common it is for mono/poly relationships to "succeed" (whatever that means); I tend to think mono/poly relationships are one of the most difficult kinds of relationships in most cases. I don't think I am overly positive about the advice I give, although I do temper it by the possibility that the person asking for advice has already decided what they're going to do.

 

[WhatHappened]

You can't apply odds to opening a relationship

Why in the world not?

.... There is no good way to predict. It doesn't matter if 99% of mono/poly relationships fail, there's still 1% that don't.

It seems to me that if we know the vast majority of X fails, that's a fairly good predictor in and of itself. As dinged heart says...would we fly on an airline with a 90% crash record? No, because we can safely predict THE ODDS ARE...they have a crash coming up very soon, given that record.

Pain is inevitable, Once. It's just part of life. Trying to avoid pain just results in avoiding life.

Pain is inevitable, sure, but that doesn't mean we make a habit of jumping off cliffs or flying airlines with disastrous records, saying, "Oh, well, pain happens." We certainly don't jump off a cliff saying, "Oh, well, pain happens in life and maybe I'll grow from it."

how we would even begin to define success and failure. Is an established couple attempting polyamory only successful if they remain primary/nesting partners and continue to practice polyamory for the duration of their relationship?

...

I tend to see transitions and changes as successful if they improve the happiness of the people involved.

You bring up an excellent question and a good start to answering it. You mention possible outcomes in your post...but they all center around the couple. Poly by definition involves more than the couple.

In XBF's case, he's hurt a number of other women. He caused me a great deal of pain rather than remind his wife they'd agreed to multiple LOVES and expect better behavior from her.

But the damage doesn't stop with partners. Their poly-related choices have hurt my children, the other people in the arts group where he and I met, and people who had gotten peripherally involved in the business he and I started. Their choices have caused problems with other people, too. (I'm skipping details only to try to keep this readable length.)

So his marriage is fine, because he'll always back his wife no matter what. But a circle of people--who don't even know he's poly--have been directly hurt by his poly life.

So are they 'successful?' They have a 30 year marriage, 20 of it poly. They're the poster children for 'successful poly.' Does it count as success if you repeatedly hurt people with no concern to what you're doing to others?

 

[PinkPig]

Why in the world not?

Because there are many, many, many factors that influence whether a marriage continues or ends. Poly is only one small piece of the puzzle. It's not like flipping two coins where the event is pretty similar (though, given, it could be different depending on who flips, how they flip, if there's any interference, etc.) In the case of marriages, you can NOT say that the marriage that was limping along when one spouse had an affair and declared themselves poly to have the same odds as the strong, healthy marriage with great communication that was flourishing when one partner declared themselves poly. Both poly/mono marriages. Two different marriages, two very different odds when they start. How do you compensate for that??

It seems to me that if we know the vast majority of X fails, that's a fairly good predictor in and of itself. As dinged heart says...would we fly on an airline with a 90% crash record? No, because we can safely predict THE ODDS ARE...they have a crash coming up very soon, given that record.

You're comparing different animals. In the first example, you're wanting to apply general odds to determine whether a specific marriage
will succeed or fail. In the second example, you're applying the safety rating of a specific airline, and determining whether to fly that airline. I'd agree with the choice not to fly that airline. If however, the overall odds of a plane crashing were 90% but this one airline has a great safety rating, I'd consider flying it, regardless of the overall odds of planes in general.

Same with the marriage. If my marriage isn't great, we don't communicate well, and I have an affair partner that I want to transition in to my poly partner, YES the odds of failure are probably really high. On the other hand, if my marriage is otherwise strong, we're great communicators, and I'm asking my partner to consider opening....and I'm willing to take the time and effort to do it right, then the odds of my marriage continuing are much greater than the first example. That is the kind of advice I see offered here all the time. I think the forum members do a great job of offering advice specific to the posters' situations.

Pain is inevitable, sure, but that doesn't mean we make a habit of jumping off cliffs or flying airlines with disastrous records, saying, "Oh, well, pain happens." We certainly don't jump off a cliff saying, "Oh, well, pain happens in life and maybe I'll grow from it."

No, we don't jump off random cliffs. But, we also don't avoid doing something just because it could result in pain. We know a high percentage of all marriages end in divorce, that vast majority of romantic relationships do not continue for a lifetime, and yet we continue to date and get married. We do so knowing there will be pain (because any time two people are in a relationship, there will be times that one or the other hurts or disappoints the other, it's inevitable.)

My point is that we shouldn't avoid doing something just because there will be pain involved. To do so, limits our life and our happiness.

I also agree with Claire's point about how we define success of a relationship. Just because a romantic relationship ends does not mean it was unsuccessful!

ETA: My point is that general odds do not mean anything to a specific relationship. They're meaningless and not helpful. Much like the scenario I mentioned in my previous post: Didn't matter that the odds of that anesthetic not having that side effect were 99:1. I was the 1; therefore, what mattered to me was that this anesthetic would cause this side effect for me. That's the kind of advice that's given here. I frequently see people post that transitioning from an affair to poly is unlikely to work, that you need to go very slow in opening, that you need to consider how you'd feel if your (supposedly) mono partner decides to date, and that you need to consider whether you can be happy staying mono if your partner declines to open. That kind of information is helpful in my opinion because it's specific advice. General odds are not helpful, imo.

 

[PinkPig]

Another thing about this 'odds' thing that's bothering me is that it doesn't consider the odds of the marriage continuing if the couple doesn't open, or the poly person doesn't come out to their partner. Forgetting the case where there's already a third person involved in some fashion (whether a crush or affair partner), just considering the cases where the poly person has slowly come to the realization that he/she is poly. If that poly person has determined that they do not wish to be mono for life, then it doesn't matter if the odds a poly/mono relationship will fail are 90:10. 90:10 odds are better than the 100/0 odds that the poly person will remain monogamous.

Or, in the case of the airline. If I'm just going on vacation, I'm not going to fly if the chance is 90% that the plane will crash. I'll find another way to get there. But, if I've been sentenced to death with no hope of stay, I know with 100% certainty that I'll be executed, chances are really good that I'll get on the plane if it's the only way to avoid execution.

 

[dingedheart]

When I thought up that airplane analogy I was think of the orginal posts analogy on odds and track betting of 20 bucks. To most of us 20 bucks is nothing. Not much pain / loss. Loss of life is too extreme but they say divorce is up there in the trauma department. Also I wasn't thinking of this from the point of view of the poly persons coming out party but rather the original idea of the poly bomb blast victim ( the odds from the short side ) maybe that's a habit from my old career and how we/I did risk analysis.

I think we are conflating lots of things here ....poly mono relationships that were set up that way from day one from those log mono couples that had the bomb dropped on them and the mono partner has NO interest in expanding the romantic horizons. Lumping those that start with affairs emotional or physical just adds another level of complications and mess and makes the odds longer. That also couples the want to try poly " together " and for one reason or another one of them has very discouraging luck and decides to pack it in because they can't handle the rejection and failure.

All that said I don't think it's crazy or irresponsible to suggest that in a sharply defined poly mono dynamic that a positive outcome is a logshot in most cases. And likewise it's also not irresponsible to suggest that such a dynamic can work.
I think gala is right when she suggests an enthusiastic yes is the preferred set point.