@Rosalindsbaby No matter the outcome, you are being very brave.
Is my partner abusive?
- Thread starter Rosalindsbaby
- Start date
If you are on the edge about breaking up, I'm not sure it's a great idea to talk to the other woman who loves him and decided to stay. She's not going through the same process as you here. Her natural tendency would be to downplay the issues.
Talk to a therapist, an impartial friend who will be able to support whatever decision you make, or someone specializing in helping women out of abusive relationships.
I don't know if your partner is "abusive", I've only heard you describe bad behavior in one situation. A lot of people are not on their best behavior when their partner (re)starts to date. You have to know if these are patterns and themes throughout your (recent) history.
I'm so sorry you deal in this. It sounds super painful. 
Glad the resources help. I'm not sure you can talk to Max and get him to change if he doesn't think he has any problems and YOU are the problem.
Well, is HE the narcissist? And he flips it around on you so he looks good in his mind? Some of this may be narcissistic abuse. Talk to the counselor.
If he wants to break up? AGREE. Don't go kissing his butt just to hang on to him. He might be doing loyalty tests just to check how much bad you will tolerate or check how strong his hold is on you.
That’s basically the “you’re too sensitive” deflection to avoid taking personal responsibility for how his behavior affects you. You can google "emotional abuse sounds like" and look at the images that come up. Is any of that familiar?
Here is just one.
You’re worried you won’t survive the heartbreak of a break up —but how long can you survive someone slowly eroding you and treating you poorly?
Love is respect.
www.loveisrespect.org
You are not getting respectful behaviors here.
Healthy boundaries includes walking away if someone keeps on crossing them and won't respect them. Maybe you want to talk this out in with the counselor in individual session. Show them this whole thread.
ADHD problems don't mean you deserve to be treated poorly, hon.
He is flipping it around on you making you believe the problem is you. But ok, let's pretend you are the one doing hurtful things to him. Could break up. Then you aren't doing hurtful things to him any more. Right?
You asked what “hurtful behaviors” means. Here are some clear examples from your posts:
Maybe it helps you see it all in one list.
Control over your autonomy
Unclear and shifting expectations
Use of past mistakes
None of this is kind, loving, considerate, friendly or healthy behavior. This is not ok.
You are worried you won't survive a break up. What does that mean? Like he's going to go even more wacko? Go all stalker on you? You are scared of that? Or something else? The leaving time is the dangerous time. The whole "If I can't have you, nobody can!" thing. That doesn't mean you stay.
I do not think there's anything to fix or solve here. You can't beg or negotiate someone treating you nicely. They either do it or they don't. You don't date some future version of him or how you hope he will become. You date the person he is NOW and right now he's super unkind to you. He might not hit you (yet?) but this is emotional abuse/mental abuse.
It's not the first time people have told you this might be/is abusive behavior. You sought the board to ask for more input. You did the right thing in doing that and you are being very brave. Rather than push it out of your head, you are rethinking it.
Internet people might be able to help you with one or two things. They can validate this is weird and def NOT ok. But this is serious and it is a whole bunch of things. It needs a professional.
I think you could print the whole thread and show it to your counselor in individual session and ask for help. You could also call warm lines or hotlines. Be careful in case he spies on your devices.
en.wikipedia.org
Hon, I don't know you. You are an internet stranger. But I can tell when behavior is healthy sounding or not. I'm not the one in it slowly being gaslit or dealing in mind games. I'm no doc but you could tell your counselor you are worried about him calling you a narcissist and him saying that you get others to gang up on him. (But isn't that what HE does? He's flipping that behavior around on you too?)
outofthefog.website
Really it is strangers agreeing with you that "Yeah, things here are just not right." If even strangers can see it? Time to talk to professionals.
Dealing with the confusion of "How can someone I love so much treat me so bad?" is very disorienting. Please talk to counselor. Tell them what is going on.
Need a list of abuse tactics? Here is one.
You could circle and show the counselor the things you have experienced.
I'm very sorry. You deserve to be treated nicely in your relationships.
This is not it.
Galagirl
Glad the resources help. I'm not sure you can talk to Max and get him to change if he doesn't think he has any problems and YOU are the problem.
Well, is HE the narcissist? And he flips it around on you so he looks good in his mind? Some of this may be narcissistic abuse. Talk to the counselor.
If he wants to break up? AGREE. Don't go kissing his butt just to hang on to him. He might be doing loyalty tests just to check how much bad you will tolerate or check how strong his hold is on you.
That’s basically the “you’re too sensitive” deflection to avoid taking personal responsibility for how his behavior affects you. You can google "emotional abuse sounds like" and look at the images that come up. Is any of that familiar?
Here is just one.
You’re worried you won’t survive the heartbreak of a break up —but how long can you survive someone slowly eroding you and treating you poorly?
Love is respect.
Home
Healthy relationships for young adults can be confusing. Love is more than just the way you feel, and we're here to help.
www.loveisrespect.org
You are not getting respectful behaviors here.
Healthy boundaries includes walking away if someone keeps on crossing them and won't respect them. Maybe you want to talk this out in with the counselor in individual session. Show them this whole thread.
ADHD problems don't mean you deserve to be treated poorly, hon.
He is flipping it around on you making you believe the problem is you. But ok, let's pretend you are the one doing hurtful things to him. Could break up. Then you aren't doing hurtful things to him any more. Right?
You asked what “hurtful behaviors” means. Here are some clear examples from your posts:
Maybe it helps you see it all in one list.
Control over your autonomy
- Requiring permission before you can:
- go on dates
- kiss someone
- be physically intimate
- Wanting full control and approval over your other relationships
- Having veto power over who you can see
- Expecting your other relationships to progress only in small, pre-approved steps he gets to decide
Unclear and shifting expectations
- Changing rules after the fact (something was okay before, but suddenly isn’t)
- Calling expectations “common sense” without clearly communicating them
- Getting very upset and making you feel guilty when you don’t meet unrealistic expectations
- Acting "disappointed" in a way that makes you feel morally wrong and rush to "make it up" to him
- Shutting down or withdrawing instead of working through conflict
Use of past mistakes
- Bringing up old issues from years ago to justify current anger
- Using past mistakes to say you are still untrustworthy
- Calling you names like:
- “egoistic”
- “cheap”
- “asshole”
- "narcissist"
- "untrustworthy"
- Saying hurtful things and then:
- not apologizing
- or saying you should “just know” he didn’t mean it
- Fake apologies with eye rolls. Because he's not actually sorry. He wants "skip ahead" or wants to retain dating access to you or get things from you.
- Saying you should tolerate hurtful words "better" instead of changing how he speaks so he's not using hurtful words.
- Whooshing anger AT you rather than learning how to express healthy anger in a way that doesn't hurt you.
- He doesn't think he needs therapy for anything.
- He is a King Bee type. Quick to dismiss people who don't agree with him.
- Talking to others about your relationship in ways that make you look bad / oversharing info with others that you did not consent to
- Framing you as the problem to friends or other partners
- Maybe hoping that you will give into "peer pressure" since you aren't giving in to him fast enough. (That is called proxy recruitment. Where he gets other people to do his dirty work for him.)
- Expecting you to adjust a lot while not making the same effort himself
- Having multiple partners freely while restricting your ability to do the same
- Micromanaging you
- Treating your affection as a “reward” (Something HE gets to control or grant, you don't get to be in charge of you)
- Denying things he said or minimizing his violent words by saying he didn't really mean it
- DARVO stuff
- Refusing to talk about things that hurt you
- Ending conversations abruptly
- Acting like the victim
- Making you feel like:
- you’re always at fault
- you’re not trustworthy
- you’re “the problem” in the relationship
- you don't love him "enough" or "in the right way."
- You are in pain. You try not to think about it as a means of coping.
- That only works for so long. You ask others for help. They tell you this is not ok.
- On reflection, you remember all these kinds of pain from all over the years and in the last few months. It is uncomfortable to realize/sit with.
None of this is kind, loving, considerate, friendly or healthy behavior. This is not ok.
You are worried you won't survive a break up. What does that mean? Like he's going to go even more wacko? Go all stalker on you? You are scared of that? Or something else? The leaving time is the dangerous time. The whole "If I can't have you, nobody can!" thing. That doesn't mean you stay.
I do not think there's anything to fix or solve here. You can't beg or negotiate someone treating you nicely. They either do it or they don't. You don't date some future version of him or how you hope he will become. You date the person he is NOW and right now he's super unkind to you. He might not hit you (yet?) but this is emotional abuse/mental abuse.
It's not the first time people have told you this might be/is abusive behavior. You sought the board to ask for more input. You did the right thing in doing that and you are being very brave. Rather than push it out of your head, you are rethinking it.
Internet people might be able to help you with one or two things. They can validate this is weird and def NOT ok. But this is serious and it is a whole bunch of things. It needs a professional.
I think you could print the whole thread and show it to your counselor in individual session and ask for help. You could also call warm lines or hotlines. Be careful in case he spies on your devices.
List of domestic violence hotlines - Wikipedia
Hon, I don't know you. You are an internet stranger. But I can tell when behavior is healthy sounding or not. I'm not the one in it slowly being gaslit or dealing in mind games. I'm no doc but you could tell your counselor you are worried about him calling you a narcissist and him saying that you get others to gang up on him. (But isn't that what HE does? He's flipping that behavior around on you too?)
Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) — Out of the FOG | Personality Disorders, Narcissism, NPD, BPD
Introduction Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a serious condition which affects an estimated 1% of the population. Narcissism is characterized by an extreme self-interest and promotion with an accompanying lack of concern for the needs of others. Narcissism is named after the mythological Gree
outofthefog.website
Really it is strangers agreeing with you that "Yeah, things here are just not right." If even strangers can see it? Time to talk to professionals.
Dealing with the confusion of "How can someone I love so much treat me so bad?" is very disorienting. Please talk to counselor. Tell them what is going on.
Need a list of abuse tactics? Here is one.
You could circle and show the counselor the things you have experienced.
I'm very sorry. You deserve to be treated nicely in your relationships.
This is not it.
Galagirl
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Why are you oversharing stuff from (you +Max) over on to (you + Ron?)
You could have kept the date. Or you could have said, "Ron, I can't make it then. Can I call you next week with a better time?" instead.
Ron basically said that confirms all his worries, and that he doesn't want to come in between us, and is out. I can be "alone" if this is how it ends, but right now I'm just so angry that I am fucking things up again for myself, and not even because I'm enjoying forbidden fruits or anything like it!
Ron can see you are too tangled up in Max. He's chosen to step away from the weird.
Look at how you talk to yourself. I am worried Max has trained you to beat yourself with the "You are a big fuck-up" stick when he's not there to hit you with it.
It's ok to be angry. It's you starting to wake up to all this being not ok. But why self-bully on top?
Do not involve Sue. She may not be a safe person. She could go tell Max all you said in confidence and then Max could rain new doom on you.
A better person to talk with is the counselor, someone outside the dating system. Sue is another partner. She is inside the dating system. She cannot be impartial. If Max treats her same as you, she might also think this is okay or normal. It is not.
Try https://www.polyfriendly.org if you need a second-opinion counselor, a fresh set of eyes on the whole thing.
This isn't even about polyamory anymore, even though it is happening in a poly context. This is really poor behaviors/abuse.
You are going to need help and support getting out of this. I urge you to talk to a counselor.
Galagirl
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Yes. Healthy people can do that, separate like that, because they take personal responsibility for their part in the situation-making.
- They know how to say "When you do ___, that makes me feel unconsidered. That upsets me. I'd prefer you do __ instead."
- They do not say "You slut! You piss me off! You should know not to do ___!"
Of course that is how he sees it. It's not like he's going to admit "Yeah, I like to DARVO you a lot."
He's just going to start up a new DARVO about the first DARVO. He will make a big fuss so you get tired/confused and give it up/let him win the argument/let it go and don't press him for accountability.
You having a normal reaction/response to being treated poorly is not you being abusive. It's you being provoked by him in the first place.
I'm concerned you are being gaslit and cannot see straight when he starts to blow fog at you.
You could ask yourself-- when there is conflict, does Max:
Seek a greater understanding of each other?
Want to be in "right relationship"?
Want to work together to find solutions, to move things forward?
Or does he just wants to:
Be "right" and win the argument?
Project his stuff onto you?
Get himself off the hook and not be responsible?
Why does he need to see and accept you? So he will stop behaving badly and will start being kind to you? How is wanting to be treated kindly in your relationship unfair or unjust?
You might be at the "I love him and I want the poor behaviors to stop so I can keep staying with him" stage. You don't want to leave, but you know this isn't healthy, so you keep hoping he'll change behaviors. But he doesn't change. So you have to think about the thing you don't want -- breaking up.
Is that where you are at? Between a rock and a hard place?
Galagirl
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I'm sorry you are going through this. Thank you for sharing.
This jumped out at my from your posts:
The line you wrote above (italicized) is exactly what we mean here by Max seeming to be emotionally abusive toward you. He has convinced you that you are egotistical, selfish, "cheap," etc, and that his shitty behavior toward you is your fault because you "don't care enough about him."
I don't think you've actually engaged in any "hurtful behavior" toward Max.
I could understand if he was concerned you'd exposed him to Ron's cold by kissing Ron when he might be still contagious...but an emotionally healthy partner would just say, "I wish you'd waited to kiss him until he was 100% not contagious, please don't do that again," and then let it go.
In fact, Max keeps coming up with different reasons why your behavior is wrong...it becomes not about Ron's cold, but about you "rewarding" Ron when he overslept and missed your date. Max's interpretation of your behavior seemed twisted, unhealthy, and designed to punish you.
Question for you: Does Max need YOUR permission for every little kiss he engages in with his 2 other partners?
This jumped out at my from your posts:
I don't get that line though... What do you mean by hurtful behaviors? I am the one with the hurtful behavior by not caring enough about him.
The line you wrote above (italicized) is exactly what we mean here by Max seeming to be emotionally abusive toward you. He has convinced you that you are egotistical, selfish, "cheap," etc, and that his shitty behavior toward you is your fault because you "don't care enough about him."
I don't think you've actually engaged in any "hurtful behavior" toward Max.
I could understand if he was concerned you'd exposed him to Ron's cold by kissing Ron when he might be still contagious...but an emotionally healthy partner would just say, "I wish you'd waited to kiss him until he was 100% not contagious, please don't do that again," and then let it go.
In fact, Max keeps coming up with different reasons why your behavior is wrong...it becomes not about Ron's cold, but about you "rewarding" Ron when he overslept and missed your date. Max's interpretation of your behavior seemed twisted, unhealthy, and designed to punish you.
Question for you: Does Max need YOUR permission for every little kiss he engages in with his 2 other partners?
Of course not. With a narcissist, it's always: "Rules for thee, but not for me."
It's obvious to me that Max considers the OP an extension of himself and/or a possession and not a separate autonomous individual with agency over their own personhood.
Rosalindsbaby
New member
So many things I wish I‘d have answers for. Galagirl did sum it up after all:
I spent the night at Max‘s place and we cuddled and agreed the conversation about the „slut shaming“ just really went badly. We need to continue to talk about stuff. Today in the morning when asked about the plans for the rest of my day I said I’d like to see Ron again, as I haven’t so in a week and he’s leaving for another week town. Max was immediately super upset that I’m so casually dropping this, that I’m even thinking about continuing with Ron when we are still in troubled waters, and even accused me of sabotaging his day and capacities for concentration on his work schedule because I just dropped a bomb like this.
I stayed calm and pointed out that to me our issues of trust are not really connected to me being able or okay seeing Ron now, as this is a separate dynamic from ours. That I am just trying my best to be open and honest and am scared of getting in a position where Maxs trust issues are controlling my behavior. That I see it as imbalanced between us.
Max kept wanting to stop this conversation again immediately and walled himself in, ending on the note of „then I don’t want to be in a relationship like this“. I am tired, twisted, torn. I am desperate for acceptance and loving trust. I am scared of a toxic dependency of my emotional sanity. Maybe I shouldn’t communicate so much with Max how I feel as everything come across as narcissistic. But that’s simply not how I know this person under „normal“ conditions! I don’t want to break up. But do I have to?
I spent the night at Max‘s place and we cuddled and agreed the conversation about the „slut shaming“ just really went badly. We need to continue to talk about stuff. Today in the morning when asked about the plans for the rest of my day I said I’d like to see Ron again, as I haven’t so in a week and he’s leaving for another week town. Max was immediately super upset that I’m so casually dropping this, that I’m even thinking about continuing with Ron when we are still in troubled waters, and even accused me of sabotaging his day and capacities for concentration on his work schedule because I just dropped a bomb like this.
I stayed calm and pointed out that to me our issues of trust are not really connected to me being able or okay seeing Ron now, as this is a separate dynamic from ours. That I am just trying my best to be open and honest and am scared of getting in a position where Maxs trust issues are controlling my behavior. That I see it as imbalanced between us.
Max kept wanting to stop this conversation again immediately and walled himself in, ending on the note of „then I don’t want to be in a relationship like this“. I am tired, twisted, torn. I am desperate for acceptance and loving trust. I am scared of a toxic dependency of my emotional sanity. Maybe I shouldn’t communicate so much with Max how I feel as everything come across as narcissistic. But that’s simply not how I know this person under „normal“ conditions! I don’t want to break up. But do I have to?
Decide the conditions you need to be able to date freely and insist on those no matter what. Like no, you are not cancelling dates, and no, you are not asking permission to schedule one. You can give him reassurance, you tell him as soon as your date is scheduled so that he isn't surprised next time (I totally do think that's a fair thing to ask, especially if he was under the impression, that you are not dating anymore). But you're not compromising on the basics.
He's got other partners. Keep yours - that is, if Ron is still willing to date you.
Be selfish enough to demand equality.
See if he means his "I don't want to be in a relationship like this" (and breaks up with you), or if he adjusts.
It's not even "selfish" to demand equality! It's being self-respectful.
The times when women were jailed for demanding equal rights, back in say, 1899, are long past! Women have been battling for equal rights since the 18th century (i.e., the late 1700s, the time of the American and French revolutions, when woman and people of color also dared to get the idea we deserved freedom and equality; it wasn't just reserved for land-owning white men).
Women got the vote in the US in the 1920s. We got the right to have a credit card of our own, without needing our husband to co-sign, in the 1970s.
Now Trump is trying to pass a bill whereby if a woman marries and takes her husband's last name, and it no longer matches her last name on her birth certificate, she can't vote. What the bloody hell? Anything, any trick, to take away women's power and "keep us in our place." Bitch, please.
Rosalind, you said:
You are coming across as desperate.
Ask yourself: WHY am I so desperate to cling to this controlling disrespectful man? (Suggestion: it's usually from childhood, having had an emotionally distant, authoritative father.)
I once dated a narcissist for 2.5 years. He was extremely charming the first year, everything I could want in a man. Turned out he was just "mirroring" my tastes and preferences to "get me hooked." After the first year, when he knew he'd hooked me, he lost interest in that game, and me, and started to devalue me and demote me, and even discount, disregard and partially discard me, by quickly falling for someone else, treating her like gold, and treating me like a servant, no longer giving me positive attention or sex, engaging in these weird endless "word salad" arguments, and worse. It became very frustrating to talk to him. He made no sense.
He was treating me like I was a lab rat in an experiment. He had absolutely no empathy. One time I was in such pain, I was crying, and he quite literally laughed at my pain. He didn't seem embarrassed or remorseful to have a share in causing me pain. He seemed to find my pain entertaining.
The change in him was gradual at first, and then escalated. Boy, was he mad when I broke up with him, though. He destroyed a bird feeder on my deck in his rage. Kinda scary. He also tried to lure me back in 40 days after I dumped him, but showed such gross behavior I was just further repelled.
If you're scared, get support. A counselor. Friends and family. A good counselor can recommend support orgs for those being abused.
You mean he sounds narcissistic, right? Because you certainly aren't. Narcs target kind, caring, successful people as their victims, because you are a status trophy for them, and more likely to cut them some slack out of your empathy. But I think you're seeing his true colors, as I eventually did with my ex.
And if you can't tell a partner your true feelings, the relationship is based on mistrust and lies by omission, and is pointless and unfulfilling.
I think you are going to have to set emotions aside and look at the actual behaviors.
That may have been the case in the past. But lately Max is not nurturing. He's very controlling and moody and basically bad for your mental health.
This is your goal -- developing healthier boundaries.
Those are the "fake roses" of the honeymoon period in the cycle of abuse.
en.wikipedia.org
After his last blow-up, he got his cuddles, like he wanted. He's feeling good, he basically got his way, so he can be "generous" and agree to everything in the moment.
It's just blahblahblah. I doubt he actually means it.
Totally normal in poly relationships. Max dates other people. So do you. It's totally normal in all relationships to ask about your plans for the day, and to just state it.
The missing part is hearing the plans and saying, "That's nice, honey. Have a good day." He does not do that. He blows up.
Boom.
There's the new coercive controlling weirdness. See? He didn't mean it about working on things to get better. He's right back at the behaviors that make it bad, making a great big fuss about normal life stuff in order to get you to do what he wants -- to not see Ron.
He's isolating you from other people who would tell you his behaviors are weird.
It's good that you were calm, but maybe not great that you told him you now see through his ways.
It sounds like he didn't like that, or it surprised him, so he's changing to a new tactic-- the silent treatment, and a threat of ending the relationship, to see if that shuts you up and makes you fall in line.
Rather than keep repeating this whole thing on a loop, I think you could have said, "Okay, then we break up." Be done.
He basically wants poly for him and not for you.
It's understandable to feel twisted and torn. You've recently realized you are being abused. It's a shocker. You will go through the stages of grief like, "I can't believe this is happening to me!" and other things.
You don't sound ready to leave just yet. And that's okay, if you need time to line up a counselor for support first and make a safety plan for leaving, so leaving can actually be safe and successful.
You don't have to say where you live online -- in fact, don't. But in private, on a safe device, start reading about safety plans.
I know it sounds dramatic, but some of these abusers increase the violence. That whole, "If I can't have you, no one can!" thing, if you try to get out.
Please see a counselor. Maybe this helps you find someone:
You tell them you are being abused inside a poly relationship, where the partner wants poly for them and not for you. You are worried you are emotionally/mentally dependent on him. You are scared of breaking up, and if he'd actually let you go, or get even weirder and harass you more.
And while waiting, think about reading materials from www.coda.org and/or www.adultchildren.org. Both teach people how to have healthy boundaries. It might not be the right fit, but it might patch a gap to get you to your counseling appointment.
Yes. You've seen this performance already. Any time you tell him you are doing normal things, like having a date, he has a cow. So don't tell him anymore. Just live your normal life in the parts that you can live it.
The parts of your life with him are not normal or healthy. You do not exist to be his verbal punching bag, where he just whooshes all this temper at you. That is not okay.
I'm no doctor. I cannot diagnose him. But he does sound narcissistic and controlling to me. It's just not healthy for you here.
Yes. You have to break up if you wish to be free of these poor behaviors. He's not going to change them.
The "old normal" is gone and you are now dating the "new normal." The "new normal" is full of turbulence. This new Max is... ugh, not changing, and basically abusive towards you. That's hard to deal with, and you will need help to leave. If you are not ready to leave yet, if you need time to figure out a safe leaving plan, I get it. Just be careful and stop telling him so much.
Start seeing a counselor, though, so you have guidance and support.
This is not okay. He is doing very poor behaviors towards you.
You deserve to be treated well in your relationships.
Galagirl
That may have been the case in the past. But lately Max is not nurturing. He's very controlling and moody and basically bad for your mental health.
This is your goal -- developing healthier boundaries.
Those are the "fake roses" of the honeymoon period in the cycle of abuse.
Cycle of abuse - Wikipedia
After his last blow-up, he got his cuddles, like he wanted. He's feeling good, he basically got his way, so he can be "generous" and agree to everything in the moment.
It's just blahblahblah. I doubt he actually means it.
Totally normal in poly relationships. Max dates other people. So do you. It's totally normal in all relationships to ask about your plans for the day, and to just state it.
The missing part is hearing the plans and saying, "That's nice, honey. Have a good day." He does not do that. He blows up.
Boom.
There's the new coercive controlling weirdness. See? He didn't mean it about working on things to get better. He's right back at the behaviors that make it bad, making a great big fuss about normal life stuff in order to get you to do what he wants -- to not see Ron.
He's isolating you from other people who would tell you his behaviors are weird.
It's good that you were calm, but maybe not great that you told him you now see through his ways.
It sounds like he didn't like that, or it surprised him, so he's changing to a new tactic-- the silent treatment, and a threat of ending the relationship, to see if that shuts you up and makes you fall in line.
Rather than keep repeating this whole thing on a loop, I think you could have said, "Okay, then we break up." Be done.
He basically wants poly for him and not for you.
It's understandable to feel twisted and torn. You've recently realized you are being abused. It's a shocker. You will go through the stages of grief like, "I can't believe this is happening to me!" and other things.
You don't sound ready to leave just yet. And that's okay, if you need time to line up a counselor for support first and make a safety plan for leaving, so leaving can actually be safe and successful.
You don't have to say where you live online -- in fact, don't. But in private, on a safe device, start reading about safety plans.
I know it sounds dramatic, but some of these abusers increase the violence. That whole, "If I can't have you, no one can!" thing, if you try to get out.
Please see a counselor. Maybe this helps you find someone:
Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory
Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory
www.polyfriendly.org
You tell them you are being abused inside a poly relationship, where the partner wants poly for them and not for you. You are worried you are emotionally/mentally dependent on him. You are scared of breaking up, and if he'd actually let you go, or get even weirder and harass you more.
And while waiting, think about reading materials from www.coda.org and/or www.adultchildren.org. Both teach people how to have healthy boundaries. It might not be the right fit, but it might patch a gap to get you to your counseling appointment.
Yes. You've seen this performance already. Any time you tell him you are doing normal things, like having a date, he has a cow. So don't tell him anymore. Just live your normal life in the parts that you can live it.
The parts of your life with him are not normal or healthy. You do not exist to be his verbal punching bag, where he just whooshes all this temper at you. That is not okay.
I'm no doctor. I cannot diagnose him. But he does sound narcissistic and controlling to me. It's just not healthy for you here.
Yes. You have to break up if you wish to be free of these poor behaviors. He's not going to change them.
The "old normal" is gone and you are now dating the "new normal." The "new normal" is full of turbulence. This new Max is... ugh, not changing, and basically abusive towards you. That's hard to deal with, and you will need help to leave. If you are not ready to leave yet, if you need time to figure out a safe leaving plan, I get it. Just be careful and stop telling him so much.
Start seeing a counselor, though, so you have guidance and support.
This is not okay. He is doing very poor behaviors towards you.
You deserve to be treated well in your relationships.
Galagirl
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Rosalindsbaby
New member
Dear strangers on the internet, your empathy and advice have become a guard rail through the fog of this past week. I keep rereading these posts and looking into the resources that have been shared. Not all of the conclusions about the levels of abuse are as tough as sometimes assumed here, for example I'd never be afraid of the consequences of a break-up other than my mental health and the loss of a future together. I do not believe he would do anything to damage me. He'd certainly badmouth me among common friends, but apart from that I am certain he wouldn't want to do damage.
So I am not sure whether to end things not because I am scared of the consequences, but because I somehow still have hope that we might be able to drop all these charades of fear and finally see, if a true mutual love is possible. I feel like we haven't tried everything yet and leaving now would forever haunt me with the "what-ifs."
Asking for mutual understanding and trust and building more and more rules did certainly NOT help to get there. We did agree on a meeting on Monday to talk. Try a different approach. Max would certainly expect and need some more apologies from me before considering opening up towards me again. I will be careful for what I actually think I want to apologize for and stand accountable for. I would like to have a very basic conversation about how we wish to be treated by partners, how we have behaved in past relationships, how we think we behave in this one, and how an ideal future relationship would look. Each person should answer for themselves. Basically, these questions haven't been addressed in the longest time! We talk a lot about what we want to do, where to live, goals in life and plans for the future together as well as in the now - but I have come to realize there has been very little of this BASIC relationship ideas talking.
Question: Do you think this is a good idea from my side?
I am aware I could have phrased that better in that moment, but I was really swallowing a lot right there. I wanted to draw the focus back on the issue between Max and me and not let him expand his rage onto Ron. But now this sentence (What has Ron to do with this?) is the hooking point for Max and sole proof how delusional I am.
Then there's my other problem: The fucking biggest hit of NRE I ever experienced. Because of Ron. I also first thought he does not want to see me anymore after he let me know he doesn't want to be a wedge between Max and me. But well... Since we've met, we've talked almost every day on the phone for an hour. So he decided he still wants to see me again, to talk about exactly these fears.
A friend of his kept him in check yesterday though, and told him to maybe take some time for himself before continuing to become infatuated with me. So it was actually Ron who cancelled our plans of meeting yesterday. This I did not tell Max. I simply said I won't see Ron today anymore anyhow.
My problem is that I am questioning everything I always thought about how I want to be with someone - if that makes any sense? I'm sure some of you must have experienced an NRE phase like this at least once in their life. One that challenges everything. When I think of Ron, I want to leave Max if he is in the way of being with Ron! (Which scares me and might be reason why I am fighting even harder for fixing my relationship with Max) And further: I never wanted kids in my life - and suddenly I can imagine myself being in a parent situation with Ron and even wanting kids?! Like wtf!! That's so not me! Or so I thought? I'm in my thirties, I thought I knew myself!
And now Ron is pulling away, of course, and I am yearning for him, and hurting from Max, and am scared of falling into a scheme of leaving one guy for another, resulting in broken hearts galore one year later down the road.
I wish I could sober up, and at the same time I want to drown in this energy. Ron is not in town until Wednesday evening. I guess we won't talk until he's back.
So I am not sure whether to end things not because I am scared of the consequences, but because I somehow still have hope that we might be able to drop all these charades of fear and finally see, if a true mutual love is possible. I feel like we haven't tried everything yet and leaving now would forever haunt me with the "what-ifs."
Asking for mutual understanding and trust and building more and more rules did certainly NOT help to get there. We did agree on a meeting on Monday to talk. Try a different approach. Max would certainly expect and need some more apologies from me before considering opening up towards me again. I will be careful for what I actually think I want to apologize for and stand accountable for. I would like to have a very basic conversation about how we wish to be treated by partners, how we have behaved in past relationships, how we think we behave in this one, and how an ideal future relationship would look. Each person should answer for themselves. Basically, these questions haven't been addressed in the longest time! We talk a lot about what we want to do, where to live, goals in life and plans for the future together as well as in the now - but I have come to realize there has been very little of this BASIC relationship ideas talking.
Question: Do you think this is a good idea from my side?
I don't want a relationship where I can't tell what I'm up to and how I feel about it. I won't change telling him because it's not who I am. It would feel like lying.
Or it would feel like I'm avoiding Max's reactions... I am also not sure he specifically wants me to stop seeing Ron. He has revealed he feels like he's not getting enough attention and care from me and that not considering to ask him about how he would feel about me seeing Ron again is a huge red flag for him, and proof that I am egoistical. Which is why when last Thursday Max got upset and said something nasty and affectively accusing me and Ron, I simply frowned and asked, "What has Ron to do with this-- you being upset?"
I am aware I could have phrased that better in that moment, but I was really swallowing a lot right there. I wanted to draw the focus back on the issue between Max and me and not let him expand his rage onto Ron. But now this sentence (What has Ron to do with this?) is the hooking point for Max and sole proof how delusional I am.
Well, Magdlyn, you're absolutely correct with your suggestion.
... And also with this here. But I fear breaking it down to a fight on equality would do more harm than justice.
He really isn't isolating me from anybody - apart from my dating interests of course. Quite the opposite is true, actually. Most of the time, I feel too drowned energy-wise to reach out to anybody - but when I manage to, and mention to Max that I had a good talk about our problems with someone, he is really glad for me that I found someone to talk to. He really does not think in the slightest that his behavior is problematic, and therefore sees no threat in me talking openly with anyone.
Half of this is true. The last part I don't identify with. But the resources were helpful, I have never looked too much into detail on what codependency can look like, and after reading through an extensive checklist with many subcategories, I have found that both my partner and I are checking off a lot of the issues. My take is we are both codependent in sometimes similar and sometimes contrasting patterns - and these resulting behavior patterns are super toxic. I wouldn't call it abuse though, as I don't believe anyone of us is doing it with harmful intentions. I would ideally love to find ways out of this codependency together which does not involve going cold turkey by breaking up or hurting each other further. (Yes, both ways: Because no matter if you guys think my behavior and words are sane and normal, they still hurt Max on a very real level.)
Then there's my other problem: The fucking biggest hit of NRE I ever experienced. Because of Ron. I also first thought he does not want to see me anymore after he let me know he doesn't want to be a wedge between Max and me. But well... Since we've met, we've talked almost every day on the phone for an hour. So he decided he still wants to see me again, to talk about exactly these fears.
A friend of his kept him in check yesterday though, and told him to maybe take some time for himself before continuing to become infatuated with me. So it was actually Ron who cancelled our plans of meeting yesterday. This I did not tell Max. I simply said I won't see Ron today anymore anyhow.
My problem is that I am questioning everything I always thought about how I want to be with someone - if that makes any sense? I'm sure some of you must have experienced an NRE phase like this at least once in their life. One that challenges everything. When I think of Ron, I want to leave Max if he is in the way of being with Ron! (Which scares me and might be reason why I am fighting even harder for fixing my relationship with Max) And further: I never wanted kids in my life - and suddenly I can imagine myself being in a parent situation with Ron and even wanting kids?! Like wtf!! That's so not me! Or so I thought? I'm in my thirties, I thought I knew myself!
And now Ron is pulling away, of course, and I am yearning for him, and hurting from Max, and am scared of falling into a scheme of leaving one guy for another, resulting in broken hearts galore one year later down the road.
I wish I could sober up, and at the same time I want to drown in this energy. Ron is not in town until Wednesday evening. I guess we won't talk until he's back.
I spent my life not wanting kids. Right up until I met someone who felt like the absolute perfect fit for me in parenthood. But I was already perimenopausal and, given everything else, we chose to not pursue medically supported fertility treatment. We just lamented that we didn't meet in our 30s, or 20s.
I was sure I knew myself as childfree. Now I feel like a fraud when I claim that. But had I never met that person, I would never have wanted parenthood. Sometimes, it really is true that you just haven't met the right person - until you do.
You could date neither Ron nor Max. Be on your own for a while. See what the peace of being on your own as a healed person feels like.
You've been dating Max 7 years, and if you are in your 30s now, were you in your early 20s when you started dating Max? Is he your first young adult relationship? You don't really know who you are as a young adult without Max in the picture?
I think you need counselor support to sort through these intense feelings and patterns— especially because it seems like Max is using control and emotional pressure to keep you in the relationship. Now that he sees his favs not working as well as they used to, because you've started waking up, I think he's going to increase pressure and hop around tactics to see which ones do work to squish you back down.
Making you “apologize” when you haven’t done anything wrong is him testing if he still has control over you. In a healthy relationship, both partners naturally cool off and check in to repair and restore. They do not use apologies as ego strokes or “loyalty tests.”
You are basically saying "I’m thinking about staying in this unhealthy relationship, because I'm still hoping it might somehow work.”
That's the bargaining stage of grief. It's normal. Like, "I don't want to leave unless I turned over all the rocks and did everything I could do." But that feeling may keep you there longer than necessary while you take on new damages.
What did you do that is "wrong" that actually needs apology?
To me, it sounds like he is "punishing" you because you dared to have an independent thought and pushed back a tiny bit. You "apologizing" to him before he "becomes open to you" is him checking to see that he still has control over you and will do what he says.
No. I think meeting him alone is a bad idea. He plays mind games with you. He knows how to pull at your heart to get you to do things.
I see two options at this point in time:
OPTION 1: Spend time healing with a counselor before dealing with the state of this relationship.
OPTION 2: End this relationship. Then spend time healing with a counselor.
If you are certain he won’t become violent, you could break up with him completely and be done. You could decide you have given him enough second chances; you’ve had enough and will not invest further.
You still go see a counselor for support, especially if he tries to manipulate you with begging or guilt afterward, trying to get back together.
You still go check out the healthy dating class.
Protect yourself, reclaim your autonomy, and invest in your well-being.
Galagirl
You've been dating Max 7 years, and if you are in your 30s now, were you in your early 20s when you started dating Max? Is he your first young adult relationship? You don't really know who you are as a young adult without Max in the picture?
I think you need counselor support to sort through these intense feelings and patterns— especially because it seems like Max is using control and emotional pressure to keep you in the relationship. Now that he sees his favs not working as well as they used to, because you've started waking up, I think he's going to increase pressure and hop around tactics to see which ones do work to squish you back down.
Making you “apologize” when you haven’t done anything wrong is him testing if he still has control over you. In a healthy relationship, both partners naturally cool off and check in to repair and restore. They do not use apologies as ego strokes or “loyalty tests.”
You are basically saying "I’m thinking about staying in this unhealthy relationship, because I'm still hoping it might somehow work.”
That's the bargaining stage of grief. It's normal. Like, "I don't want to leave unless I turned over all the rocks and did everything I could do." But that feeling may keep you there longer than necessary while you take on new damages.
What did you do that is "wrong" that actually needs apology?
To me, it sounds like he is "punishing" you because you dared to have an independent thought and pushed back a tiny bit. You "apologizing" to him before he "becomes open to you" is him checking to see that he still has control over you and will do what he says.
No. I think meeting him alone is a bad idea. He plays mind games with you. He knows how to pull at your heart to get you to do things.
I see two options at this point in time:
OPTION 1: Spend time healing with a counselor before dealing with the state of this relationship.
- Cancel the Monday meeting. Don’t try to sort anything, explain anything, or negotiate. You don't break up with him. You don't do this talk either. You do... nothingness.
- Start individual counseling. Focus on yourself, your emotions, and your boundaries. Learn to recognize patterns of manipulation and control. You could also check online for healthy dating classes, which are offered to people coming out of domestic violence/abuse. (Back in the day I used to drive a [formerly abused] friend to a class sponsored by the women's shelter. It was held in a mall meeting room. By now there are probably online options, as well. Taking this class helped her see when she would gaslight her own self with, "Oh, it's not THAT bad..." and make excuses for his poor behaviors: "Oh, he didn't mean it... Oh, he had a bad day...")
- Observe Max's behavior, not words. If you do interact, take note of what actions he does, not what he promises or says.
- Set and enforce your personal boundaries. You do not need to apologize for standing up for yourself, having independent thoughts, or living your life. Don’t let him test your compliance. Or... be ok "failing" his weird tests. Do not comply and cater to him and his unrealistic and unreasonable demands. Just live your ordinary life.
- Do not meet him alone. Only in public spaces, if at all. If any discussions happen in the future, only do so with a counselor present. This is for your safety and to prevent manipulation.
OPTION 2: End this relationship. Then spend time healing with a counselor.
If you are certain he won’t become violent, you could break up with him completely and be done. You could decide you have given him enough second chances; you’ve had enough and will not invest further.
You still go see a counselor for support, especially if he tries to manipulate you with begging or guilt afterward, trying to get back together.
You still go check out the healthy dating class.
Protect yourself, reclaim your autonomy, and invest in your well-being.
Galagirl
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Rosalindsbaby
New member
Thanks Evie, you put it right into the words of „feeling like a fraud“, haha, glad I’m not alone or going insane.
Galagirl, do you do counseling or something like that professionally? Your advice is always so well structured and laid out with a lot of care and precision- the people in your life are sure lucky to have someone that empathic and levelheaded like you!
Well, I am already in individual therapy. Unfortunately we didn‘t have a session this week, but I’ll see my therapist again by the end of next week and definitely talk about this. Hmmm, I’ve gotten another idea, as you people agreed on it not being a good idea to talk to my metas about my fears with being controlled by Max, I‘m asking myself now if it would be ethical to ask for a private session with our couples therapist to address my doubts and get her feedback? She certainly has a good picture of us and how we emotionally respond to each other.
Lately our fights have gotten easier to overcome. We learned to deal with the symptoms of our patterns better. So we have been deciding on not needing the therapist anymore at the moment - and the last session lies now three weeks in the past. Our therapist said that often when the symptoms are becoming manageable and a sort of plateau balance phase is reached, often the source of the toxic patterns, the real problems, come to surface. I think that’s exactly what’s happening right now. But would it be against the trust of our therapist agreement to ask for a conversation without Max?
Galagirl, do you do counseling or something like that professionally? Your advice is always so well structured and laid out with a lot of care and precision- the people in your life are sure lucky to have someone that empathic and levelheaded like you!
Well, I am already in individual therapy. Unfortunately we didn‘t have a session this week, but I’ll see my therapist again by the end of next week and definitely talk about this. Hmmm, I’ve gotten another idea, as you people agreed on it not being a good idea to talk to my metas about my fears with being controlled by Max, I‘m asking myself now if it would be ethical to ask for a private session with our couples therapist to address my doubts and get her feedback? She certainly has a good picture of us and how we emotionally respond to each other.
Lately our fights have gotten easier to overcome. We learned to deal with the symptoms of our patterns better. So we have been deciding on not needing the therapist anymore at the moment - and the last session lies now three weeks in the past. Our therapist said that often when the symptoms are becoming manageable and a sort of plateau balance phase is reached, often the source of the toxic patterns, the real problems, come to surface. I think that’s exactly what’s happening right now. But would it be against the trust of our therapist agreement to ask for a conversation without Max?
Rosalindsbaby
New member
Oh and I forgot to answer this one:
So I’m 34 now, been dating Max since 27. I have had two other serious relationships before. Both lasted about four years and there was always a two year gap in between relationships. Of course I thought I knew myself as a young adult between 25 and 27, but I certainly would find to get to know myself differently would I be alone now, with 34! That’s only natural. I also changed a lot in my life during these seven years with Max. I am not scared of potentially being alone. I am scared of making the wrong decisions though…
Your therapist will tell you, this is HER professional etics to hold.