Is This the Final Red Flag? Hotwife, Poly, and Possible Rectification

[tallbosguy]

I hope you are all safe, sane, and well... I need a little help from you "pros" out there on a situation.

A few years back I exchanged info with a couple who was in the hotlife style though I am much more polyamorous than I am a swinger, etc. I understand this is a spectrum, though when first messaged "C" and I did not plan any sort of relationship at all due to distance. Ironically our initial meet up never occurred but we kept talking. Since then we have become extremely close.

C struggled with jealousy early on, as we became close. I also have and still do, but I had been in similar relationships before I helped guide her through much of it. This is a big part of why we became so close. After 9 months of talking and having met in person several times we mentioned we preferred to keep close with one another even as I began dating down the line. I am in a very elite grad school program and frankly don't have the time for a primary partner at the moment. The only time I met anyone (before C) that appealed to me as a primary partner my conversation about polyamory went awful. C assured me after learning this that when I did find another potential primary candidate she would be supportive by giving me the space needed and emotional support We have now chatted for about 3 years just about daily. Coincidentally the best future city for me is about two hours away from from her and we plan to keep dating.

After a tense discussion about a year in where she withheld some information about others we discussed what we expect from one another in communicating and stepped back to evaluate what our "relationship" was. I am not one to institute a OPP (by nature there are at least 2 involved!), I explained I had dated and enjoyed couples before which were far more closed, I was just not used to the casual sex portion and it was new to me and I would need help with this. I reassured her importance to me. During this time though she did openly (and has said since) she cannot commit sexually to just her SO and I. Her primary partner is a swinger, and while I do not know him well we get along. I told her that this will be hard, but I will try my best to work through it provided we were all open in chatting about developments by any of us. She said she’d help me grow.

Months later during a special trip we planned it comes up drunkenly that her insecurity about losing me was raging as our time together came to a close. After a chat I told her again - I am not looking in the moment for a PP due to life, I was happy if she was, and we have time to work on reassuring her before I found any PP. I told her that a PP will need to understand I am poly in order to date me regardless if C was in the picture or not. She took solace in the fact I had traveled far a few times to see her and chatted daily. I asked if she was feeling out anyone else because of this and I would adapt to support her. She said no.

Now a bunch of trips later and months apart due to COVID it came up she had a random encounter with a stranger while back home. It sucked, but she had openly stated may happen and we had agreed to helped me work through. I worked through, but what bothered me however was that it came up that she had chatted with a few folks online despite what she said on our "very special" trip, and how we agreed to being open about other potential people coming into the overall relationship. She apologized, having understood "serious" searches for anything that had a planned follow through be it sexually or meeting up to weigh compatibility. I thought I was pretty clear but as our initial conversation on what were were (referenced in the first paragraph) was so long ago I wrote it off as maybe I wasn't clear that while again, no OPP policy exists, what my request on clarity was. She explained why she didn't typically mention chatting as in her eyes, as she said "like harmless flirting at the bar."

I re-explained these types of things made me the ironically newer-to-the-scene partner and how it was something I was not used to, I am more of a hierarchal poly person and how it hurt me that these chats were hidden. I reexplained my previous relationships closeness and intimacy and how sex came into the picture personally and for everyone involved. She apologized and we agreed to strengthen where communication was lacking. Things were... okay. I figured it was a long term issue I needed to work on as well as my stressful work regarding COVID and public health from my grad program spilling over to jealousy. I had discussed the hidden nature of them with her and she had said she was terrified of losing me. A few days later she apologized for the encounter saying how regretful she felt about it and how sad she was that it made me feel jealous and unwanted. A quick aside, but the few weeks before the encounter was tough on us due to personal, non relationship issues that caused us to have less time to chat and sext than we normally did.

This was a red flag for me but since then during some times of worry, where I aired my fears she was quick and seemingly truthful in shutting down any worries by telling me she wasn't looking for people. Are these jealousy spikes silly? Absolutely, but with COVID I felt lonely being on my own under high stress and it was very helpful to know I was wanted. She has had a few worries where I also restated my care for her.

Our conversations have returned to normal and since then we have chatted often about how we miss seeing each other in person.

Anyways, I woke up today to a stunning photo of her, but in it she has a never before seen hotwife ankle bracelet in a new outfit - an outfit she mentioned to me before but not what about. Anyways I know what these anklets are for, when I first was exploring what I was I learned about what they mean. I am unsure if this is from her SO, her, or what. Again, while I get jealous about these encounters I had been working on it and before this morning I felt that my jealousy had been diminishing, understanding with the distance I cannot give her this physical pleasure, but this one felt like a knife in the gut followed by acid dumped on the wound. There was no mention of this despite my requests to help me work through this by approaching these situations openly, it just appeared in the photo. I cannot bring this up today to C because they are on vacation and I do not want to ruin the little time her and her SO get together. But it is eating me alive.

So I hope that was clear to give context. Now my questions.

Has anyone successfully negotiated dating a hotwife/a person who assigns lesser emotional value to sex than themselves? This is my primary worry I would love outside commentary on. Any advice on bridging our emotional/sexual intimacy "distance" on the spectrum is helpful as I am unsure if this is possible. It has been three years and though it isn't quite the same I have overcome many difficult things in life - I figured I would be better along than where I am now. Part of me says dial this back to just a fun fling if we happen to be nearby, as I worry my emotional attachment will take hits as things currently stand.

Am I being "trickle truthed" here in your opinion? I feel like her revealing her online chats retroactively, followed by this non-mentioning of going out on vacation with such jewelry is something that may be of concern especially as shes consistently mentioned fear of losing me. I worry she will hide these things and that is not healthy nor what I had in previous successful relationships. However, I realize I am not in a normal headspace either.

Am I being ignorant, controlling, or incorrect in my behaviour some way? As I said, she was open about exploring herself sexually and while it is a struggle, I thought I was doing okay. I however, might be lying to myself and would love some critique - we all know sometimes we excuse our behaviour out of self preservation and ego.

I appreciate everyone taking time to read this, and thank you in advance.

 

[Marcus]

Has anyone successfully negotiated dating a hotwife/a person who assigns lesser emotional value to sex than themselves?

I agree with you that this is the central concern. You two must have some fun together, and have some comfortable and sexual overlap, but it certainly sounds like there is a critical piece of overlap missing.

I'm hearing lots of someone getting their feelings hurt, somenoe doing emotional damage control, and someone apologizing. It looks like it's happening over and over again and has been since the beginning of your relationship.

It seems clear enough that there is an incompatability here that is important to you, so you need to decide how much more of this same routine are you going to continue to take part in?

I worry she will hide these things and that is not healthy nor what I had in previous successful relationships.

Which there is clearly evidence to support, right? This isn't theoretical, this statement is summing up the issue with your relationship that appears to be ongoing and all consuming.

It makes sense too, that she would withold information. Think about it from her side, she's trying to live her life, she likes to be a flirt and doesn't like being tied down by someone else's restrictions. Then add that she has this long distance relationship that requires that she is basically a "status check in machine", and any time she misses an update she has to do damage control and apologize all over herself.

When people hide critical things from each other it's for one of a couple of reasons, they don't have the same value priorities, and they don't trust that you are emotionally stable enough to hear the hard truth. Thus, hiding.

Am I being ignorant, controlling, or incorrect in my behaviour some way? As I said, she was open about exploring herself sexually and while it is a struggle, I thought I was doing okay. I however, might be lying to myself and would love some critique

What do you think? Are you lying to yourself? Based on the evidence you have seen regarding this relationship, does it seem like it's a cohesive fit?

If you read what you wrote from someone else's perspective, what conclusion do you think you would come to?

Honestly it just sounds like you guys are doing two different things and it isn't a good match.

 

[telivan]

I'd like a few things clarified before I start offering advice.

OPP Policy

What do mean when you use OPP? I've seen many variations of that acronym and I'm not sure which one your using here.

I am more of a hierarchal poly person

Can you give me a rundown of the poly structure that you feel the most comfortable with?

From my first impressions on the post it seems like you two have very different views and needs sexually. You might just not be compatible despite your emotional closeness.

 

[tallbosguy]

I agree with you that this is the central concern. You two must have some fun together, and have some comfortable and sexual overlap, but it certainly sounds like there is a critical piece of overlap missing.

I'm hearing lots of someone getting their feelings hurt, somenoe doing emotional damage control, and someone apologizing. It looks like it's happening over and over again and has been since the beginning of your relationship.

It seems clear enough that there is an incompatability here that is important to you, so you need to decide how much more of this same routine are you going to continue to take part in?



Which there is clearly evidence to support, right? This isn't theoretical, this statement is summing up the issue with your relationship that appears to be ongoing and all consuming.

It makes sense too, that she would withold information. Think about it from her side, she's trying to live her life, she likes to be a flirt and doesn't like being tied down by someone else's restrictions. Then add that she has this long distance relationship that requires that she is basically a "status check in machine", and any time she misses an update she has to do damage control and apologize all over herself.

When people hide critical things from each other it's for one of a couple of reasons, they don't have the same value priorities, and they don't trust that you are emotionally stable enough to hear the hard truth. Thus, hiding.



What do you think? Are you lying to yourself? Based on the evidence you have seen regarding this relationship, does it seem like it's a cohesive fit?

If you read what you wrote from someone else's perspective, what conclusion do you think you would come to?

Honestly it just sounds like you guys are doing two different things and it isn't a good match.

Pardon my brevity as I'm on my mobile now, but you raised something i omitted above in a failed attempt to keep it brief. As part of our closeness we have referred to each other in semi romantic terms, which is something i think i need to examine as one - it says a certain expectation in my mind and two - i need to examine if i let her role in my life bleed into something more than perhaps is healthy given what she wants.

I don't believe you meant check in machine in a negative way, but i hope i didn't give that impression if it was. It is a mutual understanding that she actually asked for as we wanted to preserve our closeness even if it meant changing the relationship dynamic. That is why this is a confusing thing to me, that aspect is something I've only encountered in a different type of relationship before which we were all more for lack of a better term, closed off.

Thinking about it this morning i really am just most upset that she didn't tell me, while it would have bothered me a little i get stronger and feel just as close with a little reassurance from both sides. Theres no restrictions per se, just communication needs, is all.

Either way thank you for taking the time to read through it all, it means alot to me!

 

[tallbosguy]

I'd like a few things clarified before I start offering advice.

What do mean when you use OPP? I've seen many variations of that acronym and I'm not sure which one your using here.

Can you give me a rundown of the poly structure that you feel the most comfortable with?

From my first impressions on the post it seems like you two have very different views and needs sexually. You might just not be compatible despite your emotional closeness.

Opp is a one penis policy, meaning just that. It can be controversial - most couples I've dated have not been causal about sex regardless of whatever organs you have while other people see OPP as very controlling. I would do a quick search to see where you stand on the issue.

Previously the poly groups I've been involved in have been smaller and closed. The emotional attachment and her wishes have mirrored those, while the sexual nature has not though i am unsure if this is her, her SO, or a combination. That is the crux of my struggle and why i am looking to see if others have successfully done this.

 

[Marcus]

I don't believe you meant check in machine in a negative way, but i hope i didn't give that impression if it was. It is a mutual understanding that she actually asked for as we wanted to preserve our closeness even if it meant changing the relationship dynamic.

It was meant to be tongue in cheek to illustrate a real point, so I'm glad you didn't take offense. I described it that way because I was trying to present what I am speculating is her point of view. The reason I think she most likely has a resistant view of the whole check in thing is because she seems to continue to leave you out of the loop. The fact that she was in full agreement at the beginning isn't terribly surprising or informative, because most people are pretty bad at identifying what they actually need to be healthy.

It *sounds* good to say "yes, full disclosure and open communication, I'm totally on board", but is that really what she wants? By her actions I think that she wants more freedom and less detailed communication than you are interested in. My recommendation is to make decisions about your ongoing behavior based on what has been demonstrated, not by what has been said.

I would like to clarify that I don't think anyone has done anything wrong, from what you've described. It sounds like she made an agreement that she thought was a good idea, but in practice is not something she actually is in favor of, but beyond that everyone is just trying to live their lives (with people who have incompatible expectations).

 

[icesong]

Anyways, I woke up today to a stunning photo of her, but in it she has a never before seen hotwife ankle bracelet in a new outfit - an outfit she mentioned to me before but not what about. Anyways I know what these anklets are for, when I first was exploring what I was I learned about what they mean. I am unsure if this is from her SO, her, or what. Again, while I get jealous about these encounters I had been working on it and before this morning I felt that my jealousy had been diminishing, understanding with the distance I cannot give her this physical pleasure, but this one felt like a knife in the gut followed by acid dumped on the wound. There was no mention of this despite my requests to help me work through this by approaching these situations openly, it just appeared in the photo. I cannot bring this up today to C because they are on vacation and I do not want to ruin the little time her and her SO get together. But it is eating me alive.

OK, C had an anklet... yeah it's a symbol, but just because she's wearing a thing doesn't mean she's actually following up on any of the interest she might receive. I mean it may have been a present from her SO while they're on a (romantic?) vacation - because whether or not she is currently *practicing* from the sound of it she still *identifies* with the hotwife label, so it would be a fairly thoughtful gift. IMO you're *definitely* overreacting on insufficient information.

When people hide critical things from each other it's for one of a couple of reasons, they don't have the same value priorities, and they don't trust that you are emotionally stable enough to hear the hard truth. Thus, hiding.

I agree with this assessment - I wouldn't want to tell about any flirtations or casual encounters either, if I was dating someone who had that same kind of reaction. I suspect if she thought you had a reaction more in the "compersion" category or even neutral, you'd get a lot more information, because frankly being slutshamed by someone you love and care about their opinion? really sucks. (I've written about this before.) I think she might especially have a hard time with those opinions if she IS coming from the perspective of having another relationship that (I'm guessing from your description) cheers these encounters on.

I however, might be lying to myself and would love some critique

I'm not saying, despite my earlier comment, that you're slut-shaming on purpose. But it's how I'd feel if someone was reacting to my actions in the way you describe your reactions to C. I mean, this really is a case of when someone tell you who they are, believe them - and decide whether you can honestly be fine with that in the long run *assuming she doesn't change*. Given the described reactions to her even chatting, I'm not sure that you can.

 

[tallbosguy]

It was meant to be tongue in cheek to illustrate a real point, so I'm glad you didn't take offense. I described it that way because I was trying to present what I am speculating is her point of view. The reason I think she most likely has a resistant view of the whole check in thing is because she seems to continue to leave you out of the loop. The fact that she was in full agreement at the beginning isn't terribly surprising or informative, because most people are pretty bad at identifying what they actually need to be healthy.

It *sounds* good to say "yes, full disclosure and open communication, I'm totally on board", but is that really what she wants? By her actions I think that she wants more freedom and less detailed communication than you are interested in. My recommendation is to make decisions about your ongoing behavior based on what has been demonstrated, not by what has been said.

I would like to clarify that I don't think anyone has done anything wrong, from what you've described. It sounds like she made an agreement that she thought was a good idea, but in practice is not something she actually is in favor of, but beyond that everyone is just trying to live their lives (with people who have incompatible expectations).

Thank you, I'll think more on this because while she hasn't asked me about this other than moments of insecurity she has stated many times that she is afraid of losing me, and when i asked her about it she admitted being a little shy asking because of these fears. I'll tell her that with COVID and my exposure risk that i can't see anyone in any capacity and she gets really happy about it, so I'm not sure if i fully agree she wants to say one and do another, i think it is more along the lines of fear preventing her from asking.


She has said that she has no fear of this with her primary as they're married but as im not it is different. I agree with her, the future is not certain as I'm sure you'd agree as well, so I've made efforts to show her and tell her about how I'm close with previous couples even though the relationship with them changed. I also know she was completely adverse to hearing about any nights out her spouse had, and still is to an extent.

I'll also think about this because it is frustrating to me that I've been very open about anything since our first chat. My next step, and something I'll reflect on is that when i move she said that she wants to see me regularly. I think with clarifying that I'll be to get clarity on what she means and make a decision if this can be a temporary discomfort and she would like something more along what I'm used to, or I'll stick it out and learn to deal with this style she is looking for, or drop it. However, i have to first get my trust levels back up.


Thank you again for helping me

 

[tallbosguy]

OK, C had an anklet... yeah it's a symbol, but just because she's wearing a thing doesn't mean she's actually following up on any of the interest she might receive. I mean it may have been a present from her SO while they're on a (romantic?) vacation - because whether or not she is currently *practicing* from the sound of it she still *identifies* with the hotwife label, so it would be a fairly thoughtful gift. IMO you're *definitely* overreacting on insufficient information.


I agree with this assessment - I wouldn't want to tell about any flirtations or casual encounters either, if I was dating someone who had that same kind of reaction. I suspect if she thought you had a reaction more in the "compersion" category or even neutral, you'd get a lot more information, because frankly being slutshamed by someone you love and care about their opinion? really sucks. (I've written about this before.) I think she might especially have a hard time with those opinions if she IS coming from the perspective of having another relationship that (I'm guessing from your description) cheers these encounters on.


I'm not saying, despite my earlier comment, that you're slut-shaming on purpose. But it's how I'd feel if someone was reacting to my actions in the way you describe your reactions to C. I mean, this really is a case of when someone tell you who they are, believe them - and decide whether you can honestly be fine with that in the long run *assuming she doesn't change*. Given the described reactions to her even chatting, I'm not sure that you can.

Well we agreed that when we would actively venture out we would let each other know, and to me that anklet is actively seeking out. This isn't to dissuade, just to keep us informed, again something she asked for. And she says she hates the Hotwife label, instead referring to me as a boyfriend though my definition of the label is different to an extent, based on my internal policies on previous, but this is semantics. However you're right, it may be a different level of signaling to her.

As for the shaming part, i can't say that I've ever shamed her. You may disagree but I do not believe being jealous and talking out why is bad, in fact it is healthy, and I've had so many chats with her when she's said she is worried about me dating or seeing others providing her that support. I know we seek to free ourselves of envy, something C and i are actively working on, but to need some extra TLC... i really don't see how that is shaming anyone especially as i have honored her request in letting her know of anything that may change our dynamic. If i missed your point though please let me know!

Like i said when she resurfaced the previous chat on her own she mentioned it was the distance but wished i had been closer. It helped me feel valued over the stress and distance and isolation I'm currently in. That's what she's done to help me grow. I've never pressured her not to or change, only that we've mutually agreed to be supportive during times things like this happen. Like I've said, I've done the same for her as well, judgement free as always.

But i do think you nailed another piece, and it is something I've tried to bridge the gap in the triad. Her SO only knows this more open style and encourages it, while i have only really ever been in a relationship this long with a more stable dynamic. Hence why I'm asking how people have, or if one even can, bridge that gap. I'm used to a sort of deeper emotional connection to sex is all, like i said it is a spectrum.

Edit: forgot to say thank you for your advice and perspective. I'm going to read your linked post now!

Double edit, because your perspective is unique and reflecting on your points above - i think some of my jealousy here comes from the fact that she's been very worried about my dating, and like i said this is understandable as my personal life doesn't leave much time for it if i could even do it safely, but she has no reference point to seeing where she is in my life when I'm dating another. These insecure feelings from her make me feel like I need to be conservative and careful while she gets the freedom to do at she like, since while we know she'll be important to me she doesn't know that yet in practice. I'll write on this personally and reflect on it more, so thank you again for that.

 

[icesong]

Oh, I definitely get that what feels like a double standard would make jealousy of her freedom a problem - and truthfully I worry sometimes that Artist will meet someone new and I'll have to deal with that, although given that hasn't happened in the past almost-six years I might be relatively safe AND the longer it is until it happens the more secure I will be in our relationship, I think. Or as secure as I ever am. But yeah him in NRE with someone else would be challenging, it definitely was for me with Knight the second time he fell for someone not-me. (The first time I was so wrapped up in my _own_ NRE I could ignore any jealous bits.)

One thing more thing you might want to ponder on this: from what you've said, her casual dalliances haven't made her relationship with her primary partner any less, so *she* does know how to navigate maintaining an important relationship while playing around with less serious people. It's a skill!

And sorry if I was overly harsh - because of the ridiculousness I described in that linked post along with some other incidents in the last eight years I have a *very* hard time with understanding why someone who was in a multi-partner relationship would want to "officially" close or even limit it, so I may have had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[tallbosguy]

Oh, I definitely get that what feels like a double standard would make jealousy of her freedom a problem - and truthfully I worry sometimes that Artist will meet someone new and I'll have to deal with that, although given that hasn't happened in the past almost-six years I might be relatively safe AND the longer it is until it happens the more secure I will be in our relationship, I think. Or as secure as I ever am. But yeah him in NRE with someone else would be challenging, it definitely was for me with Knight the second time he fell for someone not-me. (The first time I was so wrapped up in my _own_ NRE I could ignore any jealous bits.)

One thing more thing you might want to ponder on this: from what you've said, her casual dalliances haven't made her relationship with her primary partner any less, so *she* does know how to navigate maintaining an important relationship while playing around with less serious people. It's a skill!

And sorry if I was overly harsh - because of the ridiculousness I described in that linked post along with some other incidents in the last eight years I have a *very* hard time with understanding why someone who was in a multi-partner relationship would want to "officially" close or even limit it, so I may have had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.

Oh please, it is the internet! Tones are hard so i give everyone the benefit of the doubt - so no worries about feeling you were harsh. The unfortunate truth was that many groups impose rules out of jealousy so i think you're right to approach it with suspicion as well.

And it feels nice to know you struggle with archer like what i do with c, though i wish neither of us did. If i may ask, are you and him similar in your frequency of outsiders as c and i seem to be? Has he or you been able to bridge this emotional- sexual gap if you do think it is similar? But thank you for your empathy, it is nice to know I'm not alone in this. And please feel free to not respond if it is too personal to say to a stranger.

It is just so confusing to me to be in such a similar thing to what i was prior which everything, including her wishes most of the time, but the sexual portion being different. Like going from asking if she can help decorate when i move to this unannounced thing (though i keep your critique in mind! ) just gives me whip lash. Hence why if you have bridged this gap i would like to learn some of your lessons.

Edit: for the sake of all you wonderful folks helping me out it seems that i need to decide if i want to separate my emotional and sexual entanglement for this to survive, does this seem fair?

 

[Magdlyn]

I'm coming into this late, and everyone has covered a lot of points. It sounds like your gf (let's call her Mary) is married to or in a live-in relationship with... Joe? And she has had several casual sexual encounters over the years you have known her? Joe and Mary are into hotwifing. You are poly, and Mary's vixen nauture makes you anxious, envious and jealous. You live far from Mary, and while you talk every day, your studies and the distance make getting together irl hard. And you're too busy to date locally. And now Covid has made everything worse.

So, you and Mary agreed she'd tell you about every guy she talked to, either online or in a bar? And now she's finding that to be chafing. It does sound a bit excessive. Unless you were there to squee over every little flirtation, she finds it less than fun to tell you, since you just get envious and jealous.

OK.

Tell me this: is Mary going out into bars??? In a pandemic? And sitting right next to strangers, drinking, flirting, breathing on each other, and touching? Holy pandemic, Batman. Is she OK? You're not going out at all, even when you do get a free moment, except to classes, because of Covid, but she's hitting the bars and going on vacations with not you, not her husband, but some other guy who is enjoying her flirtations, her sexy outfits, her ankle bracelet signaling?

Unless she lives in New Zealand, I don't get this.

Do I have this right?

Ugh. So many horny people risking their lives and the lives of others. Where is their sense of self preservation and responsibility? So many men on Fetlife have asked me to meet them since last March. It's incredible.

 

[GalaGirl]

I could be wrong but here is how it sounds to me.

Let me repeat back what I understand in my own words. You tell me if I get it wrong. Blue just to visually block it off.

BACKGROUND

• You are super busy with grad school and while polyamorous, don't have a lot of time for dating. So kind of solo poly in the sense that your main focus is grad school.
• You are long distance dating a hotwife/swinger who is married to a swinger husband. Call her C.
• You aren't tight with him but get along ok enough with her husband.
• You talk almost daily with C. You visit her once in a while, though pandemic makes travel challenging.
• She is coming from the hot-wife swinger mindset. She fears losing you... to someone "more poly" than her who could be your primary partner. (She's married already, so it won't be her.)
• You are coming from a poly mindset. You struggle with jealousy over her other encounters even though she's told you that she's not going to promised a Closed thing with you and her husband. She likes her casual sex encounters and exploring her sexuality.

AGREEMENT

• You both made an agreement to tell.
• Being open about other potential people coming into the overall relationship -- like if she got a new serious partner or you got a new serious partner.
• On the casual lovers front, the agreement was to _____?

PAST PROBLEM

• Some weeks happened that were tough on both due to personal, non relationship issues that caused you both to have less time to chat and sext than you normally did.
• In that time? She had a random sexual encounter with a stranger while back home.
  • That bugged you because for you, sex is not a "getting you know you" casual kind of activity. It's a serious one. To her, it's more casual.
  • Her having casual sex with a stranger made you feel jealous and unwanted. Like "Here she is making time for this stranger. What about making time for me?"
• She also chatted with a few folks online without mentioning it to you.
  • To her it was like "harmless flirting at the bar." Not even "news worthy" because it's not serious.
  • But to you, online chatting IS "newsworthy"
• When you aired your fears she was quick and seemingly truthful in shutting down any worries by telling you she wasn't looking for people. You are wanted.
• She also had a few worries where you also restated your care for her and reassured her.
• You both felt better sharing this emotional/mental intimacy after weeks of no time together. Plus clearing up stuff.
• (Did you clarify or update ageements? "What is it you want to know? What is actually newsworthy? " along with "When do you want to know it by?")

NEW PROBLEM

• This morning you woke up to a stunning photo of her. (Where? On her social media?) She was in a new outfit and a hotwife anklet you haven't seen before.
• You don't know if her husband gave her the jewelry.
• You thought _____. (That's she's out looking for new people? Something else? )
• Seeing the pix and thinking ____ led to feeling like a knife in the gut followed by acid dumped on the wound.
• There was no mention of this to you before the vacation. (If she IS out looking for a new partner or casual encounters while on vacation vs just dolling up for her husband.)
• You have requested she help you work through stuff by approaching these situations openly and giving you a heads up if she IS actually seeking.
• You cannot bring this up today to C because she is on vacation with her husband.
• It is eating you alive.

META PROBLEM

• You both view sex differently.
• After three years of dating, you thought you would be further along with becoming ok with this difference.
• It still bothers you a lot though.
• What to do?
• EXTRA: Is pandemic safety being observed? Would visiting her put you at risk? Or does her pandemic behavior put you off/not put you off?

Is that about it?

I think you could wait for her to come back from vacation and ask for the reassurance you seem to want/need.

And also reflect.

If you are dating a hotwife/swinger person, who has told you up front that she likes casual sex and exploring her sexuality? She's going to do hotwife, swinger, casual sex things.

That is what you get here. It's on you to figure out if you are ok with this or not.

Am I being "trickle truthed" here in your opinion? I feel like her revealing her online chats retroactively, followed by this non-mentioning of going out on vacation with such jewelry is something that may be of concern especially as shes consistently mentioned fear of losing me. I worry she will hide these things and that is not healthy nor what I had in previous successful relationships. However, I realize I am not in a normal headspace either.

She sounds like she's been up front with you in the past, including about her fears. You have been together 3 years. She's been with the husband X years.

Sounds like she's demonstrated that she is able to be committed to serious partners (a husband and a steady boyfriend) while balancing more casual lovers who might come and go.

She might even be responsible about her hotwifing/swinging stuff -- like online variations in pandemic. Or maybe you all live in a country that has it better under control.

Am I being ignorant, controlling, or incorrect in my behaviour some way? As I said, she was open about exploring herself sexually and while it is a struggle, I thought I was doing okay. I however, might be lying to myself and would love some critique - we all know sometimes we excuse our behaviour out of self preservation and ego.

That's where you have to do your soul searching to me. I get you love her, are attracted to her, etc. And she's been up front about exploring her sexuality and not being able to promise you a "Closed" relationship to just you and her husband.

But if at CORE? You just don't like that she sometimes does hotwife/swinger things? Has casual sex with other people? Then you might have to end it because you are incompatible. And also decide NOT to date any more swinger/hotwife people. Because you view or value sex like a "sacred thing" rather than a "casual thing."

Neither view is wrong so long as the sex partners are on the same page and consent. But these views/values don't always match well enough so the two people can be ok in "an open on my side, poly on your side" kind of relationship.

You don't use these words, but do I guess right?

• She fears losing you to someone who can actually give you the "real poly" you like and can be your primary partner.
• And you worry about losing her to some "real swinger" person who can deal with the swinging thing better.

Exactly how long do you have to be together before something reaches gravitas? For me it is somewhere around 5 years. That's a serious relationship to me. It's def not NRE at that point.

3 years? Well, is that gravitas to you? Could you be trusting her more to deal with her open side of things responsibly? Do you really need to hear about every encounter like a play-by-play or do you only want to check in on sex health before you actually visit and share sex with her? When do you want to hear if someone is becoming "serious boyfriend"?

Or is it that you just don't want to be doing open-poly at all? Or only up for it for now. Like kinda doing the solo-poly thing and enjoying a steady partner in C while you are in grad school... but after grad you want to reevaluate?

Maybe something else to think about.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

Hehe, GG, you repeated just about what I wrote, in your own inimitable style!

 

[tallbosguy]

I could be wrong but here is how it sounds to me.

Let me repeat back what I understand in my own words. You tell me if I get it wrong. Blue just to visually block it off.

BACKGROUND

• You are super busy with grad school and while polyamorous, don't have a lot of time for dating. So kind of solo poly in the sense that your main focus is grad school.
• You are long distance dating a hotwife/swinger who is married to a swinger husband. Call her C.
• You aren't tight with him but get along ok enough with her husband.
• You talk almost daily with C. You visit her once in a while, though pandemic makes travel challenging.
• She is coming from the hot-wife swinger mindset. She fears losing you... to someone "more poly" than her who could be your primary partner. (She's married already, so it won't be her.)
• You are coming from a poly mindset. You struggle with jealousy over her other encounters even though she's told you that she's not going to promised a Closed thing with you and her husband. She likes her casual sex encounters and exploring her sexuality.

AGREEMENT

• You both made an agreement to tell.
• Being open about other potential people coming into the overall relationship -- like if she got a new serious partner or you got a new serious partner.
• On the casual lovers front, the agreement was to _____?

PAST PROBLEM

• Some weeks happened that were tough on both due to personal, non relationship issues that caused you both to have less time to chat and sext than you normally did.
• In that time? She had a random sexual encounter with a stranger while back home.
  • That bugged you because for you, sex is not a "getting you know you" casual kind of activity. It's a serious one. To her, it's more casual.
  • Her having casual sex with a stranger made you feel jealous and unwanted. Like "Here she is making time for this stranger. What about making time for me?"
• She also chatted with a few folks online without mentioning it to you.
  • To her it was like "harmless flirting at the bar." Not even "news worthy" because it's not serious.
  • But to you, online chatting IS "newsworthy"
• When you aired your fears she was quick and seemingly truthful in shutting down any worries by telling you she wasn't looking for people. You are wanted.
• She also had a few worries where you also restated your care for her and reassured her.
• You both felt better sharing this emotional/mental intimacy after weeks of no time together. Plus clearing up stuff.
• (Did you clarify or update ageements? "What is it you want to know? What is actually newsworthy? " along with "When do you want to know it by?")

NEW PROBLEM

• This morning you woke up to a stunning photo of her. (Where? On her social media?) She was in a new outfit and a hotwife anklet you haven't seen before.
• You don't know if her husband gave her the jewelry.
• You thought _____. (That's she's out looking for new people? Something else? )
• Seeing the pix and thinking ____ led to feeling like a knife in the gut followed by acid dumped on the wound.
• There was no mention of this to you before the vacation. (If she IS out looking for a new partner or casual encounters while on vacation vs just dolling up for her husband.)
• You have requested she help you work through stuff by approaching these situations openly and giving you a heads up if she IS actually seeking.
• You cannot bring this up today to C because she is on vacation with her husband.
• It is eating you alive.

META PROBLEM

• You both view sex differently.
• After three years of dating, you thought you would be further along with becoming ok with this difference.
• It still bothers you a lot though.
• What to do?
• EXTRA: Is pandemic safety being observed? Would visiting her put you at risk? Or does her pandemic behavior put you off/not put you off?

Is that about it?

I think you could wait for her to come back from vacation and ask for the reassurance you seem to want/need.

And also reflect.

If you are dating a hotwife/swinger person, who has told you up front that she likes casual sex and exploring her sexuality? She's going to do hotwife, swinger, casual sex things.

That is what you get here. It's on you to figure out if you are ok with this or not.



She sounds like she's been up front with you in the past, including about her fears. You have been together 3 years. She's been with the husband X years.

Sounds like she's demonstrated that she is able to be committed to serious partners (a husband and a steady boyfriend) while balancing more casual lovers who might come and go.

She might even be responsible about her hotwifing/swinging stuff -- like online variations in pandemic. Or maybe you all live in a country that has it better under control.



That's where you have to do your soul searching to me. I get you love her, are attracted to her, etc. And she's been up front about exploring her sexuality and not being able to promise you a "Closed" relationship to just you and her husband.

But if at CORE? You just don't like that she sometimes does hotwife/swinger things? Has casual sex with other people? Then you might have to end it because you are incompatible. And also decide NOT to date any more swinger/hotwife people. Because you view or value sex like a "sacred thing" rather than a "casual thing."

Neither view is wrong so long as the sex partners are on the same page and consent. But these views/values don't always match well enough so the two people can be ok in "an open on my side, poly on your side" kind of relationship.

You don't use these words, but do I guess right?

• She fears losing you to someone who can actually give you the "real poly" you like and can be your primary partner.
• And you worry about losing her to some "real swinger" person who can deal with the swinging thing better.

Exactly how long do you have to be together before something reaches gravitas? For me it is somewhere around 5 years. That's a serious relationship to me. It's def not NRE at that point.

3 years? Well, is that gravitas to you? Could you be trusting her more to deal with her open side of things responsibly? Do you really need to hear about every encounter like a play-by-play or do you only want to check in on sec health before you actually visit share sex with her and hear if someone is becoming "serious boyfriend" too?

Or is it that you just don't want to be doing open-poly at all?

Kinda doing the solo-poly thing and enjoying a steady partner in C while you are in grad school... but after grad you want to reevaluate?

Maybe something else to think about.

Galagirl

I'm going to give you the high honors grad, and you made me relieved as you nsiled this down exactly. Good lord if i had your formatting skills i would have my degree by now! I'll reply once i read through your questions and clarify anything.

But seriously, kudos for taking my ramblings and being so cohesive and involved. It is touching how everyone in here has been.

 

[GalaGirl]

Hehe, GG, you repeated just about what I wrote, in your own inimitable style!

Yup. We were cross posting. I just read yours.

Galagirl

 

[tallbosguy]

Yup. We were cross posting. I just read yours.

Galagirl

So i think your above post is just about right on the money but I'll change the two worries with caveats. I would love to be okay with this, the previous pangs of jealousy and such were becoming less scary each time and that was great. I would say she is worried losing me too someone who demands monogamy, a real fear as like i said before - my life precludes dating so she has no relative point to rely on. Promises don't put food on the table, you know?

As for the second part, yeah i guess i do worry too but to a lesser degree. I more worry that i feel that the relationship in my mind is lessened by it. This is the frustrating part because i know that isn't true, but it feels that way. Hence why i was exploring if anyone had explored that divide.


As for solo poly open poly etc, that's something i have to work on deciding. But like i said above, these decisions are ones requiring openess which is why i was seeking outside council on if i was overreacting with my worry seeing the photo.

Thank you all very much.

 

[Magdlyn]

To be honest, when you're asking for other people's opinions, I will say you can't change your feelings just by hearing how this or that other person dealt with their feelings. You can't just magically make feelings go away.

I could be wrong, but I think you'll both continue to feel insecure until you graduate and move to be nearer your gf, and get to see her more often.

As for her worries that you'll leave her for a mono woman, she might have issues. Hotwives are exhibitionists. It's a strong kink. Does she worry you'll tire of dating her, this kinky person, because you secretly desire a mono, vanilla wife? With all your insecurities about her exhibitionism, it might seem that way.

Long distance relationships are ALWAYS hard, and semi-unfulfilling, at the very least. If one of your love languages is touch, it feels worse.

 

[tallbosguy]

To be honest, when you're asking for other people's opinions, I will say you can't change your feelings just by hearing how this or that other person dealt with their feelings. You can't just magically make feelings go away.

I could be wrong, but I think you'll both continue to feel insecure until you graduate and move to be nearer your gf, and get to see her more often.

As for her worries that you'll leave her for a mono woman, she might have issues. Hotwives are exhibitionists. It's a strong kink. Does she worry you'll tire of dating her, this kinky person, because you secretly desire a mono, vanilla wife? With all your insecurities about her exhibitionism, it might seem that way.

Long distance relationships are ALWAYS hard, and semi-unfulfilling, at the very least. If one of your love languages is touch, it feels worse.

Very true! I know there is no silver bullet - not often- from folks. I was just looking to see if anyone had successfully navigated similar, or if I was (pardon the pun) going on a unicorn hunt here with no real end.

And yes, I think you are right that this as an LDR and being inconsistent is tough.

She has mentioned that her fear is that she'll feel inadequate compared and more that I will be forced to be monogamous by this future personal partner.

I also again cannot say thank you enough to all in the thread. I think this is not as bad as I first freaked out about, and thanks to each of you for your thoughts and guidance. It helped make this problem seem much smaller and in perspective.

 

[tallbosguy]

So, you and Mary agreed she'd tell you about every guy she talked to, either online or in a bar? And now she's finding that to be chafing. It does sound a bit excessive. Unless you were there to squee over every little flirtation, she finds it less than fun to tell you, since you just get envious and jealous.

No not quite, just that she would be doing so. I do not want to know the intimates, I think that would be inappropriate and controlling. And to be frank, I hate that jealousy popping up, it isn't right to have to have her get involved with it as it limits what she wants and her fun. That is what kicked off my research here, I was just looking for suggestions on how to tackle that myself.

I admit, somedays I am feeling good and I do feel okay saying "it is just sex." But then days like today where work and stress are piling up it compounds.

As for the safety, yes it is a concern as I work on front line COVID issues where several crisis have resulted in deaths. However where she is indeed "safer" relative to where I presume all you fine folks are.