It shouldn't be this difficult, should it??

C

Chickadee

New member
Hey everyone!

Brand new to this site though me and my husband have been poly for the past 3 1/2 - 4 years (we've been together for 7.) We are also in a 24/7 D/s dynamic and have been since shortly after we got together. Previously he was the only one who dated outside our relationship however I've started seeing someone within the last couple of months. That is where my problem is. Any insight, thoughts, suggestions, etc., would be most appreciated.

And just a head's up...I'm super big on using bullet points, it's just the way my brain works 😁


First, the players (all fake names, btw):

  • Ralph - my husband and D
  • Todd - my husband's best friend
  • Carrie - Todd's wife
And some background:
  • Ralph previously dated Carrie, 3 or so years ago
  • Ralph and Todd have been BFF's friends for the last 2 years
  • Ralph set up Todd and Carrie's first date about 1 1/2 years ago
  • The 4 of us are co-quarantining together but in separate homes (me and Ralph, Todd and Carrie)
  • The 4 of us have a group text that we'll all talk on, send memes, and whatnot
  • Todd and Carrie fight a LOT - yelling, slamming doors, etc., and they have since the beginning
  • Carrie told me that they started discussing becoming poly sometime around August
Ok...so here's the deal...

Todd and I started talking about dating around the middle of November, and Carrie, while she is jealous, was ok with it. She just didn't want to know any details and has a temporary restriction regarding intercourse...Todd and I are fine with this. Between the end of November and beginning of December, we saw each other a few times. Somewhere around December 10th, Carrie decided she couldn't deal with it and told us that she needed us to stop dating until January. This would give her time to process everything and be ok-ish with it. So unless Ralph and/or Carrie are with us, we're not seeing each other until then.

Ralph isn't super crazy about us dating, for 2 reasons: 1 - Todd is *his* friend and 2 - he doesn't feel that Todd and Carrie's relationship is solid enough to add poly to the mix. My opinion, based on conversations we've had, is that it's more reason #1 and that he's jealous. He's said "He's MY friend!" more than once to me.

Within the last week or so, I caught Ralph trying to get into my phone to read texts. Needless to say I was really pissed because all he had to do was ask and I would have shown him everything...I don't hide anything from him. He said that he was trying to read them to make sure things weren't "getting out of hand." Which confused me, because Todd and I are dating so of course we're going to have personal conversations and told him this.

Most of the texting Todd and I is normal day to day stuff, which I told Ralph after he told me what he was looking for in my texts. He said that if it's normal day to day stuff, it should be posted in the group text...the only thing he texts to Todd separately is making plans to get together and hang out, and that's what I have to do as well.

Ralph's view of poly does not include having feelings for the secondary. He also feels that you should date someone that is somehow different than your primary. For example, if I like to go boating but he doesn't, then I should date someone who likes to boat as well.

Ralph feels that Todd may be more into me than what's healthy for his and Carrie's marriage and that I "just can't see it" or that I "just don't recognize it as a problem." Things with Todd and I are simple because we're each other's secondary. There's not any of the complexities that come with primary relationships like bills, work, house responsibilities, etc. Because of his feelings for me, Ralph thinks that Todd might stop trying to work things out with Carrie and just concentrate on being with me because it's an "easy" relationship.

Ralph doesn't understand why I started dating Todd when I "knew that he needs to work things out with Carrie and get their relationship to a stable place before they add poly to the mix."

Ralph thinks I should cut things off with Todd for the same reason above.

Poly was initially discussed when we got serious, probably after 6-8 months of dating. Ralph said that he wanted to open our relationship after we'd been together for 5 years. This was non-negotiable and if I didn't want that, then we needed to re-think whether we should stay together. But he found someone he wanted to date around 3 years into our relationship and that's when HE opened the marriage...I was not given a choice.

We agreed on rules that could be discussed/modified after 6 months, one of which was no intercourse, and he said he was fine with this. A year or so *after* he and my meta broke up, he told me that my rule "really put a cramp in my relationship with her because we really wanted to have sex" and that it wasn't fair to him to keep this rule in place...and he was VISIBILY angry when he said this. I told him, "Those are the rules that YOU agreed to, sorry not sorry if they cramped your sex life. We also agreed we could discuss & modify after 6 months so you could have just said something."

Ralph and I are having problems as well, mostly regarding him being very controlling, and they've been ongoing for a LONG TIME and I've initiated multiple discussions about them going back at least 2 years ago. (Obviously the discussions had no affect because we're still having the same exact issues.) These issues almost caused us to break up several weeks ago because I'm just tired of it, and tired of it not changing.

I have no doubt that I have not been as "silent" around Ralph as I could have been with regard to NRE. The main thing is that I've been reading and responding to texts when we're having our together time. But a qualifier to that: together time is *every* night between 7-11pm. I think this is excessive and overly restrictive considering it's at least 5 hours every night, and maybe a reason why I don't have friends but that's a different topic for a different forum. Ralph will ask who texted, what they said, what I'm saying in response. No matter who is texting me, my answers are generally "none of your business". I don't ask anything about his texts...they're his and, unless he shares, not my business.


Here are some my thoughts:
  • I don't feel that it's my responsibility to end things "for Todd's own good." He is working on their relationship, and has been all along.
  • With regard to Ralph saying that their marriage should be stable before adding poly...I feel that's kinda related to my previous question. He's the only one that feels this way...they were fighting at the same time they were talking about becoming poly...they're not fighting *because* of the poly. Again, I don't feel it's my place to tell them what to do "for their own good."
  • I don't believe Ralph really feels you shouldn't have feelings for whoever you date because I know how he was when he's dated others. Regardless, even if that's how he thinks, I don't "work" that way and I explicitly told him that. I truly believe that you can have feelings for, like, love, whatever you want to call it for more than one person....my love is not a pie where there's only so much to go around. And I'm not going to have a relationship with someone I don't have at least some feelings for...if you don't, that's just a friendship.
  • Because "feelings" are involved, I expect that Ralph will tell me to break it off with Todd...which I DON'T want to do.
  • All of the reactions from Ralph and the things he's said has really surprised me, and not in a good way. I'm really disappointed in him, particularly with the hypocrisy, and it's changed how I feel about him. I still love him, but it's made me think less highly of him.
  • I feel that Ralph is blaming problems we've been having recently on my and Todd's relationship, even though they're the same problems we've been having on and off for several years.
  • I have a feeling that Carrie will want us to extend our "pause" past the first of the year. And, if given the chance, will keep extending it. When is enough enough and we just say, sorry not sorry, we're going to date?
  • Todd knows some of this info, but I haven't told him a lot of it mainly because I don't want to hurt his friendship and how he feels about Ralph more than it already has. Should I tell him?
Like I said earlier, any input would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!
C
 
I hope you feel better airing some of that out. I mean this kindly, ok? I think you have to figure out what you are willing to put up with and what you are not. I would set aside stuff from the past that's popping up here but not really relevant to present issues.

  • Carrie told me that they started discussing becoming poly sometime around August. Somewhere around December 10th, Carrie decided she couldn't deal with it and told us that she needed us to stop dating until January. This would give her time to process everything and be ok-ish with it. So unless Ralph and/or Carrie are with us, we're not seeing each other until then.

Well, what happens in Jan if Ralph and Carrie are still not ok with you and Todd dating each other? What work was Carrie going to be doing? Reading books and website? Seeing a counselor? Something else? What about Ralph?

If you choose to date Todd BEFORE he squares up his house?

Have a limit in mind and be clear with Todd about that expectation. You are willing to try, but don't want Carie hitting the snooze tag over and over and doing no actual work. And Todd obliging her with endless extensions. Then your problem becomes YOU because you did not ask Todd to square things up at home BEFORE dating you.

Be clear to yourself that YOU will pull the plug if it ends up being a big foot dragging thing. Can't go blaming Carrie or Todd if you go in there knowing he was dating you prematurely and they hadn't done the prep work.

  • Ralph and I are having problems as well, mostly regarding him being very controlling, and they've been ongoing for a LONG TIME and I've initiated multiple discussions about them going back at least 2 years ago. (Obviously the discussions had no affect because we're still having the same exact issues.) These issues almost caused us to break up several weeks ago because I'm just tired of it, and tired of it not changing.

THIS is the headliner issue to me. You are on a break anyway til January. During the break, Todd can address his stuff with Carrie. And you use the time to finally end it with Ralph. I mean, you asked above...

"I have a feeling that Carrie will want us to extend our "pause" past the first of the year. And, if given the chance, will keep extending it. When is enough enough and we just say, sorry not sorry, we're going to date?"

Well, same thing here with Ralph. You have had these problems for YEARS and nothing. When is enough enough and you just say sorry, not sorry, I'm ending it with you? Could reflect on that during your break.

  • I feel that Ralph is blaming problems we've been having recently on my and Todd's relationship, even though they're the same problems we've been having on and off for several years.
Rather than take personal responsibility for his share of the past problems and for glossing it over? It might be easier for Ralph to blame the "new guy" for being around or blame you for "taking his friend and doing poly wrong" or whatever. Just to keep avoiding taking personal responsibility for his share of past problems and not trying to fix them with you. Like if he runs the other dude off or gets you to dump him? He can go back to comfortable coasting. Cuz he could do that before. You'd make some noise, but ultimately you would keep on staying with Ralph whether he did anything about problems or not. So he didn't really have to change any behaviors. He could keep on coasting.

That said... why are YOU letting it drag on for years? What stops YOU from making a decision so this malaise can stop for YOU? No longer accept coasting?

REALIZATIONS

  • All of the reactions from Ralph and the things he's said has really surprised me, and not in a good way. I'm really disappointed in him, particularly with the hypocrisy, and it's changed how I feel about him. I still love him, but it's made me think less highly of him.
Understandable. Snooping in your phone, not address actual issues in the marriage, being controlling, and other behaviors? Not anything you can feel proud of Ralph for. Seems like an issue here... esp if you might be breaking up with him as a result of these behaviors.

Ralph may also be looking at you different as a result of your behaviors too. You are ok taking up with his BFF when he is not. You are ok taking up with a troubled couple when he is not. You wanting to be more of your own person and have some privacy and manage your time more balanced instead of putting Ralph first or being enmeshed with Ralph. Possibly you have changed over time as people.

SMALLER PROBLEMS YOU CAN SOLVE OR BECOME MOOT IF YOU BREAK UP WITH RALPH
  • Ralph phone peeking. (Put a pass code on it.)
  • Spending every night 7-11 pm with Ralph which you think is excessive. (Change your calendar so you get some time with Ralph and some time on your own. )
  • Ralph's view of poly is very different than yours. (He can have his views. They don't have to match yours. If they are SO mismatched it means you two are not poly compatible? Address this.)
  • Because "feelings" are involved, I expect that Ralph will tell me to break it off with Todd...which I DON'T want to do. (So don't break up. You want to share love with other partners. If Ralph only wants monoamorous and polysexual only? Where you want polyamorous and polysexual? You are not compatible. Address it. )
RALPH ISSUES WITH THE OTHER COUPLE THAT ARE NOT REALLY HIS BUSINESS
  • Ralph worries that Todd may be more into you than what's healthy for his and Carrie's marriage.
  • Ralph thinks that Todd might stop trying to work things out with Carrie and just concentrate on being with you because it's an "easy" relationship.
I think Ralph could focus on his own marriages issues with you and let Todd and Carrie deal with their marriage issues.

RALPH ISSUES WITH THIS POLYSHIP
  • Ralph worries you "just can't see it" and don't recognize Todd and Carrie marriage troubles as a problem.
  • Ralph doesn't understand why I started dating Todd when I "knew that he needs to work things out with Carrie and get their relationship to a stable place before they add poly to the mix."
  • Ralph thinks I should cut things off with Todd for the same reason above.
If basically Ralph doesn't want to be in a poly network when the other couple is having problems? Fair enough. He can have his preference, just like you can have yours. And his consent belongs to him. He gets to say what he will and will not participate in. Rather than be oblique about it, he could be more up front. "I do not consent to be in a poly network where the other couple has obvious marriage problems. You might be ok with that, but I am not. So if you want to go on ahead without me, we need to disband. You can go to that Poly Town, but I want to get off the bus."

PAST ISSUES
  • Ralph said that he wanted to open our relationship after we'd been together for 5 years. This was non-negotiable and if I didn't want that, then we needed to re-think whether we should stay together. But he found someone he wanted to date around 3 years into our relationship and that's when HE opened the marriage...I was not given a choice.

  • We agreed on rules that could be discussed/modified after 6 months, one of which was no intercourse, and he said he was fine with this. A year or so *after* he and my meta broke up, he told me that my rule "really put a cramp in my relationship with her because we really wanted to have sex" and that it wasn't fair to him to keep this rule in place...and he was VISIBILY angry when he said this. I told him, "Those are the rules that YOU agreed to, sorry not sorry if they cramped your sex life. We also agreed we could discuss & modify after 6 months so you could have just said something."

What does this have to do with today's problems?

BOTTOM LINE

  • Todd knows some of this info, but I haven't told him a lot of it mainly because I don't want to hurt his friendship and how he feels about Ralph more than it already has. Should I tell him?

I think you could tell Todd you want to date him on the level and not all wonky. You want to take this break time clear things up with Ralph first. And would like Todd to clear things up with his spouse too. Doing the prep work, and no endless snooze tags.

Then go do what you have to do. Like is this open marriage with Ralph or not? Renegotiate agreements. And if not open marriage, but you want to move forward with poly dating Todd? Then don't be married. Break up. Disband agreements. Clean up YOUR house. And expect Todd to clean up his.

My 2 cents,
Galagirl
 
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You want to date someone who is basically on your husbands messy list. Carrie seems to feel the same way about you.

Carrie could be even more opposed to you dating Todd after you leave your husband...

You and Todd may need to leave your existing relationships in order to date one another.

I actually understand your husbands opposition and it’s pretty common for best friends to be off limits in poly. You could always forget about Todd if you want to preserve your marriage and friendships.
 
So I wasn't going to come back to this site, but it is Xmas and I've had a few fruity drinks and what the hey.

I have to ask you some questions. You say Ralph is your D, your 24/7 D, yet you seem really quite resentful of him overpowering you. For me, a kink dynamic is really a unique thing. I could say that Partner X is my 24/7 slave but there has to be this almost intangible connection between us where their crave my power over them. They want me to take more control, not less.

Personally I find it confusing if someone says they want that with me but seem hostile to my presence in their lives that way but I think it is a common conflict for people and it isn't often intended to be purposefully manipulative, even if it ends up being that way due to the mixed messages.

I agree with Ralph that objectively, starting a poly relationship with someone who is content to communicate through verbal violence with his closest person (his spouse) is naive. You've literally got an example of how this guy operates in a long term relationship and the level of toxicity he is willing to tolerate is evident in the marriage you criticize so readily, yet you're still making love heart eyes at him. I'm not surprised your 24/7 D has something to say about it.

Then as Inaniel pointed out, and Galagirl often does (not sure why it isn't in this extended post), lots of people have a "messy list" of people they wouldn't want their partners to date. Best friends are often on that list along with parents, siblings and bosses. So when you couple the existence of a "messy list" with 24/7 D, in my world, someone saying "stop dating my best friend who has marriage issues" isn't really an unreasonable stance to take.

I think you need to admit to yourself and Ralph that why you enjoy kinky sex, you aren't his 24/7 sub. You just don't have the right feelings for him for that. That might clear up the boundaries because you're saying he is your D but expecting him to act like your vanilla poly spouse. It is confusing. Next, I think just end the marriage. You're not feeling the guy and you don't like how he operates in a relationship. That would clear the lane for you and you and Todd. Hopefully he will leave his toxic marriage and you can figure something out between you at that point.
 
Chickadee said:
Ralph's view of poly does not include having feelings for the secondary.

Ralph feels that Todd may be more into me than what's healthy for his and Carrie's marriage and that I "just can't see it" or that I "just don't recognize it as a problem." .....Ralph thinks that Todd might stop trying to work things out with Carrie and just concentrate on being with me because it's an "easy" relationship.
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Healthy relationships are easy and involve minimal drama. Doesn't matter if they are marital, queer, poly, casual, romantic, familial, monogamous, whatever. Healthy relationships operate on a foundation of ease and peace. Secondary relationships can be just as toxic as nesting relationships. There is no magic in being a type of relationship. People who are not being true to their values, constantly compromising themselves or trying to control others are what make for turmoil. People, not structures, make relationships peaceful or problematic.

If Ralph truly believes everything in your post here, what the heck are you all doing in polyamory? He doesn't value polyamory nor want it. You seem to not only believe in poly, but want it very much. Why are you compromising your values? Drama happens when individuals constantly compromise themselves in efforts to keep other people "happy," but this never works - as you're experiencing.
 
Then as Inaniel pointed out, and Galagirl often does (not sure why it isn't in this extended post), lots of people have a "messy list" of people they wouldn't want their partners to date.
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Because talking about Todd being on the "messy list" and not taking up with him may be too late. Chickadee already took up with him and says she doesn't want to break up.

I could be wrong, but neither Carrie nor Ralph sound "joyful yes" about it all.

And if this is the main headliner...

Ralph and I are having problems as well, mostly regarding him being very controlling, and they've been ongoing for a LONG TIME and I've initiated multiple discussions about them going back at least 2 years ago. (Obviously the discussions had no affect because we're still having the same exact issues.) These issues almost caused us to break up several weeks ago because I'm just tired of it, and tired of it not changing.
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I think that could be addressed first. A lot of the rest becomes moot if Chickadee breaks up with Ralph. Chicakdee could make the changes herself by ending it.

Chickadee, you have a lot going on. But in the end? If you are finding you have outgrown Ralph? Look at him different now and think less highly of him now? Wanted to break up a few weeks ago because of chronic issues that were there before you started dating Todd? You find Ralph controlling rather than a healthy Dominant? Tired of same old thing, different day? Ralph doesn't want to do anything to change? Then it is on you to accept this is all you get here and change it by bowing out.

I think you could sort all that out first before going deeper into poly dating with Todd.

Have the talks you need to be having with Ralph and part ways.

Galagirl
 
I can feel myself getting sucked back in here. I will resist!

Look, I can compare it to this... one time I was at this poly group and this guy came in, I'm pretty sure the young ones would refer to him as a "dudebro" today and he was giving this story about how the women (including his wife) are super controlling and he was "poly" so that meant having as many partners as he wanted while being as secretive as he needed to be to keep that up. Just an asshole basically. So hearing that many of us who were everything from promiscuous poly swingers to polyfidelious actually do have some form of agreements, check ins and information sharing between us and these baseline expectations were not "anti-poly" was a big wake up call for him.

I think this is comparable in that ok, OP doesn't want to break up with Todd and they've already started out and that's her choice to make BUT hearing that actually, those of us with more experience might have had Todd on an exclusion list all along for "best friend" and "rocky marriage" reasons if we were her spouse might make her see this in a totally different light. So where it lookED like a "veto" of Todd, it now could arguably be "why the fuck are you dating your husband's best friend? When has that EVER been a good idea?!". It shares accountability for a shitty situation and that is often more reflective of truth.
 
So when you couple the existence of a "messy list" with 24/7 D, in my world, someone saying "stop dating my best friend who has marriage issues" isn't really an unreasonable stance to take.
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This!

OP, it seems like you're actually looking for a "soft exit" from your current relationship agreements, be it to transition to vanilla, or to divorced, and Todd is your excuse.

Just take off those rose tinted glasses, the grass certainly isn't greener on the other side of this fence.
 
Thanks everyone for the thoughtful and thought provoking responses. I posted here in hopes that I would get honest and, frankly, direct/blunt responses and greatly appreciate the fact that's what was done.

I did want to add some additional info. Obviously, we do not have a messy list and nothing like it was previously discussed. For the past year or so, the 4 of us have talked about becoming a polypod in the next couple of years. This, combined with the fact that Ralph encouraged Todd and I to get together, made me assume that he wouldn't have an issue with Todd and I dating.

@GalaGirl :
Well, same thing here with Ralph. You have had these problems for YEARS and nothing. When is enough enough and you just say sorry, not sorry, I'm ending it with you? Could reflect on that during your break.
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This is something that I have been doing.
  • I feel that Ralph is blaming problems we've been having recently on my and Todd's relationship, even though they're the same problems we've been having on and off for several years.
Rather than take personal responsibility for his share of the past problems and for glossing it over? It might be easier for Ralph to blame the "new guy" for being around or blame you for "taking his friend and doing poly wrong" or whatever. Just to keep avoiding taking personal responsibility for his share of past problems and not trying to fix them with you. Like if he runs the other dude off or gets you to dump him? He can go back to comfortable coasting. Cuz he could do that before. You'd make some noise, but ultimately you would keep on staying with Ralph whether he did anything about problems or not. So he didn't really have to change any behaviors. He could keep on coasting.

That said... why are YOU letting it drag on for years? What stops YOU from making a decision so this malaise can stop for YOU? No longer accept coasting?
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I don't really have a simple answer as to why I'm letting this drag on for years. I love him and I keep hoping that he'll stop? That I don't want to hurt him? I'm aware that those aren't *good* answers, but that's what I have right now.

I think you could tell Todd you want to date him on the level and not all wonky. You want to take this break time clear things up with Ralph first. And would like Todd to clear things up with his spouse too. Doing the prep work, and no endless snooze tags.

Then go do what you have to do. Like is this open marriage with Ralph or not? Renegotiate agreements. And if not open marriage, but you want to move forward with poly dating Todd? Then don't be married. Break up. Disband agreements. Clean up YOUR house. And expect Todd to clean up his.
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This was one of the things that was hard to hear/read, but I appreciate you for saying it. I know that this is absolutely something I need to do, I just hate that I need to.

@SEASONEDpolyAgain I have to ask you some questions. You say Ralph is your D, your 24/7 D, yet you seem really quite resentful of him overpowering you. For me, a kink dynamic is really a unique thing. I could say that Partner X is my 24/7 slave but there has to be this almost intangible connection between us where their crave my power over them. They want me to take more control, not less.
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I think you need to admit to yourself and Ralph that why you enjoy kinky sex, you aren't his 24/7 sub. You just don't have the right feelings for him for that. That might clear up the boundaries because you're saying he is your D but expecting him to act like your vanilla poly spouse. It is confusing. Next, I think just end the marriage. You're not feeling the guy and you don't like how he operates in a relationship. That would clear the lane for you and you and Todd. Hopefully he will leave his toxic marriage and you can figure something out between you at that point.
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I was purposefully vague with the D/s details just because I wanted to keep this about poly. Yes, I am resentful of some of his controlling...I feel like I have another parent ordering me around to do things. I'm expected to work a full time job, take care of the house, the yard, picking up after him when he leaves trash behind, make appointments....not all of this was on me earlier on, it's been added to along the way. Now I'm responsible for 95% of everything and he pursues hobbies. I'm tired, and I can't physically keep up with all this. I don't expect him to act vanilla...unless you count being responsible for helping to maintain our home/life.

There's also him telling me to do the things I already know I have to do..."clean the litter box" "put the dishes in the sink" "put the clothes from the washer into the dryer" "turn out the light when you're done"....I could go on. If he didn't tell me to do them, I'd still do them and always have. It's just for whatever reason he feels compelled to tell me this with most everything, every day..

As for not seeing Todd, Ralph has never come out and said, "I do not want you to date Todd anymore." If he did, then I would have to make a decision.

@FallenAngelina If Ralph truly believes everything in your post here, what the heck are you all doing in polyamory? He doesn't value polyamory nor want it. You seem to not only believe in poly, but want it very much. Why are you compromising your values? Drama happens when individuals constantly compromise themselves in efforts to keep other people "happy," but this never works - as you're experiencing.
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Ralph was fine with poly, until I started dating Todd and didn't do poly the "right" way...which according to him is that there's no emotional attachment. I don't believe that's what he really believes because I know how he was with one of my meta's and there was definitely emotions involved when they were together. Regardless, I understand and agree with what you're saying about compromising myself...I know I do this, yet it's difficult to stop because I don't want to disappoint/hurt him. And I know that's bad.


@GalaGirl Chickadee, you have a lot going on. But in the end? If you are finding you have outgrown Ralph? Look at him different now and think less highly of him now? Wanted to break up a few weeks ago because of chronic issues that were there before you started dating Todd? You find Ralph controlling rather than a healthy Dominant? Tired of same old thing, different day? Ralph doesn't want to do anything to change? Then it is on you to accept this is all you get here and change it by bowing out.
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I hear what you're saying, it's just difficult to internalize.


@SEASONEDpolyAgain I can feel myself getting sucked back in here. I will resist!
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I'm sorry you feel getting sucked back, but I do appreciate your comments :)

I think this is comparable in that ok, OP doesn't want to break up with Todd and they've already started out and that's her choice to make BUT hearing that actually, those of us with more experience might have had Todd on an exclusion list all along for "best friend" and "rocky marriage" reasons if we were her spouse might make her see this in a totally different light. So where it lookED like a "veto" of Todd, it now could arguably be "why the fuck are you dating your husband's best friend? When has that EVER been a good idea?!". It shares accountability for a shitty situation and that is often more reflective of truth.
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I agree that I am also accountable for this situation. Based on the additional info I added at the beginning of this post, I didn't think dating him would be an issue.

@Evie
OP, it seems like you're actually looking for a "soft exit" from your current relationship agreements, be it to transition to vanilla, or to divorced, and Todd is your excuse.

Just take off those rose tinted glasses, the grass certainly isn't greener on the other side of this fence.
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Ralph and I have issues that existed before we met Todd, and if there's any change or end to our relationship it'll be because of those issues...Todd does not factor into my decision-making process.
 
Chickadee said:
Thanks everyone for the thoughtful and thought provoking responses. I posted here in hopes that I would get honest and, frankly, direct/blunt responses and greatly appreciate the fact that's what was done.

I did want to add some additional info. Obviously, we do not have a messy list and nothing like it was previously discussed. For the past year or so, the 4 of us have talked about becoming a polypod in the next couple of years. This, combined with the fact that Ralph encouraged Todd and I to get together, made me assume that he wouldn't have an issue with Todd and I dating.


This is something that I have been doing.

I don't really have a simple answer as to why I'm letting this drag on for years. I love him and I keep hoping that he'll stop? That I don't want to hurt him? I'm aware that those aren't *good* answers, but that's what I have right now.


This was one of the things that was hard to hear/read, but I appreciate you for saying it. I know that this is absolutely something I need to do, I just hate that I need to.



I was purposefully vague with the D/s details just because I wanted to keep this about poly. Yes, I am resentful of some of his controlling...I feel like I have another parent ordering me around to do things. I'm expected to work a full time job, take care of the house, the yard, picking up after him when he leaves trash behind, make appointments....not all of this was on me earlier on, it's been added to along the way. Now I'm responsible for 95% of everything and he pursues hobbies. I'm tired, and I can't physically keep up with all this. I don't expect him to act vanilla...unless you count being responsible for helping to maintain our home/life.

There's also him telling me to do the things I already know I have to do..."clean the litter box" "put the dishes in the sink" "put the clothes from the washer into the dryer" "turn out the light when you're done"....I could go on. If he didn't tell me to do them, I'd still do them and always have. It's just for whatever reason he feels compelled to tell me this with most everything, every day..

As for not seeing Todd, Ralph has never come out and said, "I do not want you to date Todd anymore." If he did, then I would have to make a decision.


Ralph was fine with poly, until I started dating Todd and didn't do poly the "right" way...which according to him is that there's no emotional attachment. I don't believe that's what he really believes because I know how he was with one of my meta's and there was definitely emotions involved when they were together. Regardless, I understand and agree with what you're saying about compromising myself...I know I do this, yet it's difficult to stop because I don't want to disappoint/hurt him. And I know that's bad.



I hear what you're saying, it's just difficult to internalize.



I'm sorry you feel getting sucked back, but I do appreciate your comments :)


I agree that I am also accountable for this situation. Based on the additional info I added at the beginning of this post, I didn't think dating him would be an issue.


Ralph and I have issues that existed before we met Todd, and if there's any change or end to our relationship it'll be because of those issues...Todd does not factor into my decision-making process.
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One of my friends, Ivy, is a poly therapist. She says that most of the poly people she sees are served just by remembering basic rules that apply in the "mono" world.

So think back to when poly wasn't even a concept on your horizon. Imagine if a friend said that she this thinking of dating her ex husband's best friend. She is amicable with her ex, will still be present in his life (maybe as a co-parent), and he is never specifically stated that she shouldn't date one of his friends. What would your advice to her be?
 
Hello Chickadee,

To me it sounds like Ralph and Carrie are both pushing you around, they are bullying you. I know that's probably not how you feel, but it's the impression I get from reading your description. Perhaps you're too close to the problem to see that aspect of it? If I were to give any advice, it would be to move forward with your relationship with Todd, and if Ralph and Carrie are going to respond negatively, well, that's on them. I know Ralph is your Dom, but he is taking that role too far. I know you still love him, but sometimes love isn't enough in a relationship. There has to be mutual respect too, and I am getting the impression that Ralph doesn't respect you, at least not in that area. He thinks he knows better than you in your relationship with Todd.

I think one pause is enough. When January rolls around, I suggest you inform both Ralph and Carrie that you and Todd are going to start dating again. You know that you are an adult, and are capable of making your own relationship decisions.

Anyway those are my thoughts.
Regards,
Kevin T.
 
Thank you for more info.

Obviously, we do not have a messy list and nothing like it was previously discussed. For the past year or so, the 4 of us have talked about becoming a polypod in the next couple of years. This, combined with the fact that Ralph encouraged Todd and I to get together, made me assume that he wouldn't have an issue with Todd and I dating.
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Well, if at first Ralph was encouraging it? And later he is all "you took my friend" or "they have a rocky marriage -- that should concern you" like putting all responsibility on you? I'd have to wonder why wasn't he concerned about it before?

That said, you could have declined because taking up with his best friend and the wife (who is your spouse's ex) may have been too weird for you even with your Dom pushing you toward it.

In the end though? It happened.

Right now? It seems to be about whether or not you still want to be with Ralph and whether or not the 24/7 D/s thing with him actually works.

And having been in a D/s thing for so long... you may have some struggles with detaching from that dynamic. Actually thinking about your OWN well being and not relying on him to do it. And evaluating if he's a healthy Dom for you or not from a clear head.

I was purposefully vague with the D/s details just because I wanted to keep this about poly. Yes, I am resentful of some of his controlling...I feel like I have another parent ordering me around to do things. I'm expected to work a full time job, take care of the house, the yard, picking up after him when he leaves trash behind, make appointments....not all of this was on me earlier on, it's been added to along the way. Now I'm responsible for 95% of everything and he pursues hobbies. I'm tired, and I can't physically keep up with all this.
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All I can say is a Dom exists at the consent of the sub.

If Ralph is giving you mixed messages where he encouraged you to date Todd and now doesn't want you to because you have "feelings" developing for Todd and Ralph wants it to be sex only? And Ralph also very controlling and wearing you down to the nubbins? Not looking out for his sub's well being? Not esp good at being a Dom or not a healthy Dom? There have been issues between you and Ralph for YEARS and no changes?

It still goes right back to square one.

Could set the poly stuff aside for a minute. Do you still want to be involved with Ralph any more? Or are you basically done here?

If the answer is yes, you are done? Just sad about it, struggling with anticipatory grief, and not quite ready to pull the plug? But you see the writing on the wall? Could get to the place where you ARE ready to pull the plug and ready to make changes.

Like finish with old business before starting up new business.

I don't really have a simple answer as to why I'm letting this drag on for years. I love him and I keep hoping that he'll stop? That I don't want to hurt him? I'm aware that those aren't *good* answers, but that's what I have right now.
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It sounds like you wish he'd stop because you love him. But he's NOT stopping... so you have to stop. You have to be able to say "I love you, but not even for you will I do stuff or stay in stuff that hurts me."

You choose to end it. Which sucks. No break up is FUN, and contemplating one isn't fun either.

But if it's ALREADY been wonky with Ralph for years? Piling on poly is just going to add more stress, not take away stress. You don't get a win/lose choice. You get a "this stinks" and "this also stinks" choice and you just pick the least stinky choice.

When you factor in that it's poly with Ralph's BFF and Ralph's ex who the BFF married? Who also have a rocky sounding marriage? I think slowing this down and cleaning up your own house first is reasonable.

I think you could tell Todd you want to date him on the level and not all wonky. You want to take this break time clear things up with Ralph first. And would like Todd to clear things up with his spouse too. Doing the prep work, and no endless snooze tags.

Then go do what you have to do. Like is this open marriage with Ralph or not? Renegotiate agreements. And if not open marriage, but you want to move forward with poly dating Todd? Then don't be married. Break up. Disband agreements. Clean up YOUR house. And expect Todd to clean up his.
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This was one of the things that was hard to hear/read, but I appreciate you for saying it. I know that this is absolutely something I need to do, I just hate that I need to.
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I could see where it is hard and you hate having to do it. But could do it anyway.

You don't sound like you want to keep on doing wonky with Ralph and pile on new wonky with Todd on top of it.

You sound like you want LESS wonky in your life, not more.

You may even decide you want to poly but without ANY of these people with links to Ralph. Just so you can have a cleaner slate to start from.

Galagirl
 
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Chicakdee, this is what jumped out at me from your first post:

The main thing is that I've been reading and responding to texts when we're having our together time. But a qualifier to that: together time is *every* night between 7-11pm. I think this is excessive and overly restrictive considering it's at least 5 hours every night, and maybe a reason why I don't have friends but that's a different topic for a different forum.

I don't have any experience with 24/7 Dom/sub stuff so I can't comment on how the above relates to that. But even so, it sounds exhausting and excessive; and also impossible to do any type of poly with your time being so restricted.

And yes, it's probably related to why you don't have time to develop friendships.

I don't feel that your husband's best friend would necessarily be off-limits. It sounds like you & Ralph & Todd & Carrie are a pretty intertwined group, and are also the only people in your pandemic bubble. I don't think the "messy people list" applies to your situation JUST because Todd is Ralph's BFF.

However, I agree with Ralph's assessment that you shouldn't date Todd because his relationship with Carrie is too messy. Ralph doesn't want to lose Todd as a friend if things blow up. Also, Carrie doesn't sound okay with poly, and you don't seem too concerned about her feelings. Is she your friend?

In addition, if people need to have so many rules around not being allowed to have intercourse, poly is not going to work very well. People who aren't okay with their partner having intercourse with another partner are flat-out not ready for poly. Adults generally want to "be allowed" to have intercourse; they aren't teenagers. Or, if they don't care about intercourse because they prefer other sex acts, then a rule against intercourse is just silly because they'll be having plenty of orgasms and doing other sexy stuff, so would be the point of a rule against one particular sex act?
 
FallenAngelina said:
Healthy relationships are easy and involve minimal drama. Doesn't matter if they are marital, queer, poly, casual, romantic, familial, monogamous, whatever. Healthy relationships operate on a foundation of ease and peace.
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I couldn't agree with FallenAngelina more.

What you decide to do is 100% your decision, of course, but I run towards relationships that are peaceful and away from ones that involve conflict after conflict. I don't personally have the time or energy to push a relationship (of any sort - platonic, romantic, etc.) into being something it's not. Life is too short for that in my experience.

I wish you luck and peace as you decide what to do with this situation. :)
 
Chickadee said:
I'm expected to work a full time job, take care of the house, the yard, picking up after him when he leaves trash behind, make appointments....not all of this was on me earlier on, it's been added to along the way. Now I'm responsible for 95% of everything and he pursues hobbies.

There's also him telling me to do the things I already know I have to do..."clean the litter box" "put the dishes in the sink" "put the clothes from the washer into the dryer" "turn out the light when you're done"....I could go on. If he didn't tell me to do them, I'd still do them and always have. It's just for whatever reason he feels compelled to tell me this with most everything, every day..
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I don't know anything about Dom/Sub lifestyles but It sounds less like an arrangement of mutual respect and more like you are just being taken advantage of.
 
Chickadee said:
I was purposefully vague with the D/s details just because I wanted to keep this about poly. Yes, I am resentful of some of his controlling...I feel like I have another parent ordering me around to do things. I'm expected to work a full time job, take care of the house, the yard, picking up after him when he leaves trash behind, make appointments....not all of this was on me earlier on, it's been added to along the way. Now I'm responsible for 95% of everything and he pursues hobbies. I'm tired, and I can't physically keep up with all this. I don't expect him to act vanilla...unless you count being responsible for helping to maintain our home/life.

There's also him telling me to do the things I already know I have to do..."clean the litter box" "put the dishes in the sink" "put the clothes from the washer into the dryer" "turn out the light when you're done"....I could go on. If he didn't tell me to do them, I'd still do them and always have. It's just for whatever reason he feels compelled to tell me this with most everything, every day..
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Sooo... the people I know that like that kind of D/s *like* that level of control. Clearly you do not. Were expectations discussed before you became 24/7?
 
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