BoringGuy
Banned
Even if he was just doing it for attention, instead of trying to die, it's not a sign that things are going to get better without professional help.
Just LR
- Thread starter LovingRadiance
- Start date
Even if he was just doing it for attention, instead of trying to die, it's not a sign that things are going to get better without professional help.
LovingRadiance
Active member
Yes you read it right.
Yes he needs professional help.
No I can't get him admitted against his wishes. I can contact the courts to request that, then go to court in 30 days and argue my case, but, by that time, he can say he no longer feels that way and the case gets tossed out. (We've been through this with several people including teens who are now dead by their own hand-very asinine).
I've tried to get him to do therapy-he goes for a few weeks, then blows it off as "not going anywhere or doing anything significant".
The next real option is to walk away.
and I'm not sure if I'm there yet.
Yes he needs professional help.
No I can't get him admitted against his wishes. I can contact the courts to request that, then go to court in 30 days and argue my case, but, by that time, he can say he no longer feels that way and the case gets tossed out. (We've been through this with several people including teens who are now dead by their own hand-very asinine).
I've tried to get him to do therapy-he goes for a few weeks, then blows it off as "not going anywhere or doing anything significant".
The next real option is to walk away.
and I'm not sure if I'm there yet.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't? May as well DO then and at least try to save his life and get him to a healing place.
If you are done, break up. Notify his next of kin and get you to a safer place. That is STILL trying to make changes to get him to a healthier space -- just you not leading the charge and getting YOU to a different healthy place.
My dad played that game with me. I kept giving it right back. I had to clock 2 different attempts before I could petition a judge to give me a court order to bag my dad against his will and put him in for involuntary evaluation.
That's the last resort thing here. Doc refer first if you go willing, then 911 catch you in the act next but they have to actually CATCH you having a cow in the heat of the moment, THEN the judge petition is the last resort.
It was tense times wondering what wacky he'd get up to in the meanwhile but we made it. We bagged him and he got his dx and meds. He's still a handful elder running around but he's not being a danger to himself or others any more. Thank goodness for meds!
If your own people will not do this for you, who will? The neighbors? Strangers?
I know it is hard. But don't get paralyzed or go numb. Or if you feel like you are, turn to your other people to aid you. Around it, over it, under it - there is always another way. Find the way.
Hang in there.
hugs,
GG
LovingRadiance
Active member
I know its worthless to work on this mess while we are all sick. None the less I resent the delay. It just feels like one more lead in to sweeping it under the carpet so it can attack again later. It bugs the holy fuck out of me.
MrFarFromRight
Banned
Dear LR,
I've had too many things on my hands to be able to catch [as I promised] up on this thread from the last time that I was active here, but reading these latest posts today has been a mind-blower!
There are people who need to suffer. And some of those need to push the blame on their suffering on others... often on people who love them. ["The World hates me, but that I can deal with. It's the way you hurt me that's difficult to handle."] Perhaps this isn't exactly what Maca is doing, but asking for you to take responsibility for his life [TELL ME what to do] and then blaming you for nagging him is diseased. And telling you that he's moving out then being angry at your inability/unwillingness to respond at that time
YOU're the one to blame, LR! Can you live with that? Long term? Is this going to change?
Sometimes "suicide attempts" are one of the biggest guns in emotional blackmail. ["It was YOUR fault that I killed / TRIED to kill myself!"]
This is going to sound hard-hearted, but if it were me, I'd considering telling him: "Get your shit together by yourself; ask me honestly for help - then appreciate it; get professional help... or take more of those pills. It's not up to me, it's up to you."
[And don't blame me if he does it...]
I've had too many things on my hands to be able to catch [as I promised] up on this thread from the last time that I was active here, but reading these latest posts today has been a mind-blower!
There are people who need to suffer. And some of those need to push the blame on their suffering on others... often on people who love them. ["The World hates me, but that I can deal with. It's the way you hurt me that's difficult to handle."] Perhaps this isn't exactly what Maca is doing, but asking for you to take responsibility for his life [TELL ME what to do] and then blaming you for nagging him is diseased. And telling you that he's moving out then being angry at your inability/unwillingness to respond at that time
is a classic example of emotional blackmail.
YOU're the one to blame, LR! Can you live with that? Long term? Is this going to change?
Sometimes "suicide attempts" are one of the biggest guns in emotional blackmail. ["It was YOUR fault that I killed / TRIED to kill myself!"]
This is going to sound hard-hearted, but if it were me, I'd considering telling him: "Get your shit together by yourself; ask me honestly for help - then appreciate it; get professional help... or take more of those pills. It's not up to me, it's up to you."
[And don't blame me if he does it...]
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LovingRadiance
Active member
In a nearly as hard-hearted manner, I did tell him that.
I'm in my 4th semester of school and this week I apply for acceptance to my degree program (pulling straight A's so far). My degree is Psychology, my focus is suicide.
I can honestly say-I was NOT and AM NOT impressed with this latest in his long line of using me as his scapegoat (which is one of two words I used when speaking to him-the other was whipping post) for every single thing that goes wrong in his life.
I am completely unimpressed with the pointed suicidal comments and my reaction to being told them was to tell him that was idiotic. I didn't yell or even open my eyes. I just replied "that was idiotic". He got his feelings hurt-but frankly at this point, what else is there for him to do? He needs to get his feelings hurt by his stupid choices and make different choices.
I don't know where it will go from here. I am waiting out the "everyone is sick as a dog" place-but I'm doing it from a distance. He's not happy about my distance, he's moody, needy, emotional. But, he did it all to himself and honestly-
all of the love in the world isn't helpful if he isn't willing to get his own head out of his ass AND MAINTAIN his commitment to fixing all that is wrong inside.
Today, GG and I are taking Sour Pea to town. They are going to the zoo while I'm in class. I have a few meetings after class, then this evening we're going to the game night with the lgbt club at school (that I unexpectedly became president of 2 weeks ago).
Tomorrow is Pride Conference and I am a speaker in one of the workshops (on suicide)and I am running another (on polyamory). I had previously invited Maca to go. But, I took back my invite after this latest episode.
I'm in my 4th semester of school and this week I apply for acceptance to my degree program (pulling straight A's so far). My degree is Psychology, my focus is suicide.
I can honestly say-I was NOT and AM NOT impressed with this latest in his long line of using me as his scapegoat (which is one of two words I used when speaking to him-the other was whipping post) for every single thing that goes wrong in his life.
I am completely unimpressed with the pointed suicidal comments and my reaction to being told them was to tell him that was idiotic. I didn't yell or even open my eyes. I just replied "that was idiotic". He got his feelings hurt-but frankly at this point, what else is there for him to do? He needs to get his feelings hurt by his stupid choices and make different choices.
I don't know where it will go from here. I am waiting out the "everyone is sick as a dog" place-but I'm doing it from a distance. He's not happy about my distance, he's moody, needy, emotional. But, he did it all to himself and honestly-
all of the love in the world isn't helpful if he isn't willing to get his own head out of his ass AND MAINTAIN his commitment to fixing all that is wrong inside.
Today, GG and I are taking Sour Pea to town. They are going to the zoo while I'm in class. I have a few meetings after class, then this evening we're going to the game night with the lgbt club at school (that I unexpectedly became president of 2 weeks ago).
Tomorrow is Pride Conference and I am a speaker in one of the workshops (on suicide)and I am running another (on polyamory). I had previously invited Maca to go. But, I took back my invite after this latest episode.
LovingRadiance
Active member
Pat on back commences!
I am proud of myself.
I wanted there to be a polyamory wirkshop at our local Pride Confernce. There wasn't one. So, I offered to do one and my offer was accepted. I asked for help from some online polygroups I am in and got some good suggestions.
I went today and did the workshop. It went well. I got compliments and constructive criticism too!! I am really happy with myself and lookijg forward to doing another!
I am proud of myself.
I wanted there to be a polyamory wirkshop at our local Pride Confernce. There wasn't one. So, I offered to do one and my offer was accepted. I asked for help from some online polygroups I am in and got some good suggestions.
I went today and did the workshop. It went well.
I got compliments and constructive criticism too!! I am really happy with myself and lookijg forward to doing another!
MrFarFromRight
Banned
Pat on back commences!
I am proud of myself.
I wanted there to be a polyamory wirkshop at our local Pride Confernce. There wasn't one. So, I offered to do one and my offer was accepted. I asked for help from some online polygroups I am in and got some good suggestions.
I went today and did the workshop. It went well.
LovingRadiance
Active member
Today GG and I took the kids and My sister to the NOH8 campaign photo shoot. It was so fun! It was so nice to do something meaningful AND fun as a family.
LovingRadiance
Active member
I met a lady at the Pride Conference. She attended my polyamory workshop. She was very helpful, gave me some great feedback.
On Sunday, she ended up at an ADD meeting a friend of mine runs. They ended up figuring out that they were both talking about me. LOL!
We're working out details to meet up and talk.
------------------------------------------------
Maca and I talked some last night.
Things remain unresolved with the other girl.
She is struggling to accept that the reason for the boundaries we have aren't "just to protect LR" but in fact those boundaries were created to protect Maca and that as the CURRENT boundaries stand-they are what WE BOTH want for our dynamic.
He reiterated his need for her to sit down with both of us and go over things. She wanted to know what I wanted to talk to her about (as if it remains just ME).
He told her we need to discuss the boundaries, time constraints, expectations.
Her response was that it is all "too complicated".
On Sunday, she ended up at an ADD meeting a friend of mine runs. They ended up figuring out that they were both talking about me. LOL!
We're working out details to meet up and talk.
------------------------------------------------
Maca and I talked some last night.
Things remain unresolved with the other girl.
She is struggling to accept that the reason for the boundaries we have aren't "just to protect LR" but in fact those boundaries were created to protect Maca and that as the CURRENT boundaries stand-they are what WE BOTH want for our dynamic.
He reiterated his need for her to sit down with both of us and go over things. She wanted to know what I wanted to talk to her about (as if it remains just ME).
He told her we need to discuss the boundaries, time constraints, expectations.
Her response was that it is all "too complicated".
LovingRadiance
Active member
"Too Complicated"
"too complicated"
While I understand that there are people who like the freedom of being able to come and go as they please-and I respect that FOR THEM-
I find it INCREASINGLY irritating that people can't fathom that this is UNREALISTIC in my life.
I pointed out to Maca last night-in response to this comment from the other girl-
Even as a single man after his divorce:
He had a time limit, becuase he had a 2 year old at home and was a single dad. He DID NOT HAVE TO TELL the people he dated that was WHY his time was limited-
but it didn't change the fact THAT his time was limited.
He didn't have to tell that his $$ was limited-but it remained limited.
There WERE boundaries in his life-even as a single man-and while people he dated didn't necessarily have to be told WHY any given boundary existed-they did run into those boundaries.
So it's NOT "more complicated" that we have boundaries now.
We had them when we were single.
We have them now as married's.
We will ALWAYS have them-even if we divorce.
What may change is the specifics of those boundaries and/or the reasons for them.
The truth is that asking to be able to STATE what our limits are for what we can offer someone is actually a KINDNESS and a sign of respect for THEM.
The other option, is what he and she have done for the last year; which is to NOT state those limits clearly, so that she continuously finds herself hurt and upset AND hurting and upsetting him and/or I and/or GG and/or the kids
BECAUSE SHE HAS NO CLUE WHERE THE BOUNDARIES ARE and so she inadvertently steps on them.
Ouch. How disrespectful to ask someone to play a game with you and then not tell them the rules until after they break them! Talk about setting them up for failure.
Her ideology that it is "too complicated" could be restated as
"I prefer to find out the hard way what the rules of the game are."
or
"I enjoy the pain and misery I suffer and I cause by continuously breaking rules I have no intention of learning about."
I find this... disturbing.
"too complicated"
While I understand that there are people who like the freedom of being able to come and go as they please-and I respect that FOR THEM-
I find it INCREASINGLY irritating that people can't fathom that this is UNREALISTIC in my life.
I pointed out to Maca last night-in response to this comment from the other girl-
Even as a single man after his divorce:
He had a time limit, becuase he had a 2 year old at home and was a single dad. He DID NOT HAVE TO TELL the people he dated that was WHY his time was limited-
but it didn't change the fact THAT his time was limited.
He didn't have to tell that his $$ was limited-but it remained limited.
There WERE boundaries in his life-even as a single man-and while people he dated didn't necessarily have to be told WHY any given boundary existed-they did run into those boundaries.
So it's NOT "more complicated" that we have boundaries now.
We had them when we were single.
We have them now as married's.
We will ALWAYS have them-even if we divorce.
What may change is the specifics of those boundaries and/or the reasons for them.
The truth is that asking to be able to STATE what our limits are for what we can offer someone is actually a KINDNESS and a sign of respect for THEM.
The other option, is what he and she have done for the last year; which is to NOT state those limits clearly, so that she continuously finds herself hurt and upset AND hurting and upsetting him and/or I and/or GG and/or the kids
BECAUSE SHE HAS NO CLUE WHERE THE BOUNDARIES ARE and so she inadvertently steps on them.
Ouch. How disrespectful to ask someone to play a game with you and then not tell them the rules until after they break them! Talk about setting them up for failure.
Her ideology that it is "too complicated" could be restated as
"I prefer to find out the hard way what the rules of the game are."
or
"I enjoy the pain and misery I suffer and I cause by continuously breaking rules I have no intention of learning about."
I find this... disturbing.
SNeacail
New member
I see this attitude a lot in the single, kid-free 20 something crowd. They can't understand why you can't just drop everything and go to the movies during the week. The kid-free 30 somethings, seem to have a better understanding of time constraints. I don't know if that's due to the fact that more and more of their friends have kids and they are just now used to it, their jobs are more stable and demanding, or they have just matured enough to not be so selfish.
I have a few friends that most of the time, I forget are only 23ish. Then they will say something and I go (to myself) "Oh, just you wait! Lets see what you have to say on this in 5-10 years".
I have a few friends that most of the time, I forget are only 23ish. Then they will say something and I go (to myself) "Oh, just you wait! Lets see what you have to say on this in 5-10 years".
BoringGuy
Banned
Nope. Not feeling accountablity in any way shape or form is sociopathic. It's not an age thing. 20 somethings understand accountability, they just may be avoiding it for the time being. To not accept that accountability exists is pathological and disturbing, as LR put it.
I can't continue to elaborate because i find this infuriating as well.
LR, if you are thinking that it is ultimatum time, i'm right there with you.
I can't continue to elaborate because i find this infuriating as well.
LR, if you are thinking that it is ultimatum time, i'm right there with you.
LovingRadiance
Active member
The ultimatum has been dropped by me-as of last night when the discussion happened.
I laid it out as
this is non-negotiable.
I compared it to BDSM.
There is no room for play until negotiations of soft and hard limits has been established AND AGREED TO.
These boundaries are the soft/hard limits of our polydynamic. No agreement to them-no play. PERIOD.
He is devastated.
But-he understands BDSM negotiation well and agreed that it did make sense.
He also clearly grasped that the "it's too complicated" crap was CRAP after I gave the examples regarding the fact that EVERYONE has boundaries and limits-even singles and monos.
MOST don't state them and thus end up ruining relationships with unnecessary toe stomping-but the boundaries and limits exist none-the-less.
Everyone has time constraints, everyone has financial limitations, everyone has safer sex limitations (even if their limit is a free for all-that is their limit), etc.
Asking that someone be AWARE of ours before playing on our game board isn't "too complicated" it's actually respectful and considerate of THEM. I elaborated here:
http://aafteota.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/playing-by-the-rules/
I laid it out as
this is non-negotiable.
I compared it to BDSM.
There is no room for play until negotiations of soft and hard limits has been established AND AGREED TO.
These boundaries are the soft/hard limits of our polydynamic. No agreement to them-no play. PERIOD.
He is devastated.
But-he understands BDSM negotiation well and agreed that it did make sense.
He also clearly grasped that the "it's too complicated" crap was CRAP after I gave the examples regarding the fact that EVERYONE has boundaries and limits-even singles and monos.
MOST don't state them and thus end up ruining relationships with unnecessary toe stomping-but the boundaries and limits exist none-the-less.
Everyone has time constraints, everyone has financial limitations, everyone has safer sex limitations (even if their limit is a free for all-that is their limit), etc.
Asking that someone be AWARE of ours before playing on our game board isn't "too complicated" it's actually respectful and considerate of THEM. I elaborated here:
http://aafteota.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/playing-by-the-rules/
LovingRadiance
Active member
He's an emotional basketcase. It's all the more distressing for him because he is forever bent that I have someone else and he does not.
Of course there is a lot of work involved in building a relationship. GG has had to do a LOT of bending to have a relationship with me. He has had to let go of much more than this lady would need to because I don't have the same inscurity issues as Maca and am more willing to make allowances for someone else's comfort, pleasure and benefit.
BUT-I do expect clear and DIRECT lines of communication. Thats no longer negotiable.
I feel for Maca in terms of having a desire for someone. But I can't understand it. I have never dated out of a desire to 'find someone'. I have found people along my path that became partners. The idea of searching for a partner baffles me. I can't even fathom how that works.
Of course there is a lot of work involved in building a relationship. GG has had to do a LOT of bending to have a relationship with me. He has had to let go of much more than this lady would need to because I don't have the same inscurity issues as Maca and am more willing to make allowances for someone else's comfort, pleasure and benefit.
BUT-I do expect clear and DIRECT lines of communication. Thats no longer negotiable.
I feel for Maca in terms of having a desire for someone. But I can't understand it. I have never dated out of a desire to 'find someone'. I have found people along my path that became partners. The idea of searching for a partner baffles me. I can't even fathom how that works.
IndieSolo
Active member
I have to just say, I do understand a bit abut the gf's resistance and her saying "it's too complicated." To me, it's not really about her age (thoughit may be about her experience - or lack thereof - with relationships), but simply about the choice between a high-maintenance relationship or a low-maintenance one. Obviously someone who has a spouse and several children will likely be more high-maintenance than someone single. Add to that a poly dynamic with a comprehensive list of rules, such as you have, LR, of course it's freaking complicated! I think I would say the same thing she did. It would be far too complicated for me. But then... knowing that, I WOULD WALK AWAY.
The problem is that she says "it's too complicated," but does nothing. She still expects Maca to be with her anyway. She still wants it, even though it's too complicated for her to be involved with him because she doesn't want your boundaries to affect her. What she should do is stop getting his hopes up and say goodbye instead of trying to ride it in the middle and still keep stringing Maca along as if she is going to abide by the rules, when she clearly doesn't wish to. I feel for him, but I hope he doesn't misdirect his resentment at you (because I do have a feeling he will grow resentful about it), when she is the one who is not playing fairly by wanting to eat her cake and have it too, and he is just being too desperate to see that.
The problem is that she says "it's too complicated," but does nothing. She still expects Maca to be with her anyway. She still wants it, even though it's too complicated for her to be involved with him because she doesn't want your boundaries to affect her. What she should do is stop getting his hopes up and say goodbye instead of trying to ride it in the middle and still keep stringing Maca along as if she is going to abide by the rules, when she clearly doesn't wish to. I feel for him, but I hope he doesn't misdirect his resentment at you (because I do have a feeling he will grow resentful about it), when she is the one who is not playing fairly by wanting to eat her cake and have it too, and he is just being too desperate to see that.
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SkylerSquirrel
New member
Just wanted to add that everyone does have limits, but some people's limits are more complicated than others. My personal reaction when I read through your boundary list was "whoa ... too many rules." That doesn't mean that rules are bad. That just means that I know my own preferences - I like a few simple, commonsense, broad rules instead of hammering out a bunch of details. I know what I'm looking for in a relationship, and that is not it.
So I basically agree with everything nycindie said.
So I basically agree with everything nycindie said.
JaneQSmythe
Well-known member
THIS I completely understand. I have never "looked for" anyone in my life (friend, lover, partner). I have "fallen into" any relationships (friend, lover, partner) that I have ever had. To be fair though, I never actually dated, I did go one a few "dates" when I was young - they were uncomfortable, I didn't like it, I decided to never do it again.
For me (I relate this to personality type, as I recently discussed in my "Notebook" blog on this site) - either you are a nice person that I will talk to again should the opportunity arise but have no extra interest in seeking you out, or you are one of "my people" that clicks from the onset and our relationship goes deep right away. (If you are not a nice person then I have no need to talk to you again...ever.)
I guess I view it - would I rather spend time relating to you or being alone? (I like myself, I have interesting ideas that I wouldn't mind contemplating further, I am perfectly happy having a discussion with myself if there is no-one more interesting to talk to). To be in a relationship with me (friend, lover, partner) - you have to add something to the conversation.
JaneQ
LovingRadiance
Active member
Nyc-that would be great, if she didn't hallen to be married with a live-in bf and child AND expect that THEIR boundaries. E respected and honored (like Maca can't go there when bf is home because bf doesn't like it).
It's not a matter of more or less boundaries, she has a whole series too. It's a matter of wanting things her way ONLY. Which-would be fine IF she wasn't also complaining that she wAnts to go on OUR family activities.
If he wants a fuckbuddy-he can do that, just can't bring them to our house or around me and the kids.
SHE wants the privilege of being at our family gatherings and activities as his gf-without the responsibility of respecting the rest of us (not just me).
It's not a matter of more or less boundaries, she has a whole series too. It's a matter of wanting things her way ONLY. Which-would be fine IF she wasn't also complaining that she wAnts to go on OUR family activities.
If he wants a fuckbuddy-he can do that, just can't bring them to our house or around me and the kids.
SHE wants the privilege of being at our family gatherings and activities as his gf-without the responsibility of respecting the rest of us (not just me).