Just LR
- Thread starter LovingRadiance
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LovingRadiance
Active member
Children with ADHD
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/guidelines.html
AAP recommendations:
Diagnosis & Evaluation
The primary care clinician should provide initiate an evaluation for ADHD for any child 4 through 18 years of age who shows presents with academic or behavioral problems and symptoms of inattention, hyperactivity, or impulsivity.
To make a diagnosis of ADHD, the primary care clinician should determine that diagnostic criteria have been met based on Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders – Fifth edition (DSM-5, which replaced the Fourth Edition (DSM-IV) in May 2013). Making a diagnosis includes documenting that the child is impaired in more than 1 major setting (e.g., in school and at home). The primary care clinician should include reports from parents or guardians, teachers, and/or other school and mental health clinicians involved in the child’s care. The primary care clinician should also rule out any other possible cause.
• When evaluating a child for ADHD, the primary care clinician should assess whether other conditions are present that might coexist with ADHD, including emotional or behavioral (e.g., anxiety, depressive, oppositional defiant, and conduct disorders), developmental (e.g., learning and language disorders or other neurodevelopmental disorders), and physical (e.g., tics, sleep apnea) conditions.
The primary care clinician should recognize ADHD as a chronic condition and, therefore, consider children and adolescents with ADHD as children and youth with special health care needs. Care for such children and youth should follow the principles of the chronic care model and the medical home.
Treatment:
For elementary school–aged children (6–11 years of age), the primary care clinician should prescribe US Food and Drug Administration–approved medications for ADHD and/or evidence-based parentand/or teacher-administered behavior therapy as treatment for ADHD, preferably both. The evidence is particularly strong for stimulant medications and sufficient but less strong for atomoxetine, extended-release guanfacine, and extended-release clonidine (in that order). The school environment, program, or placement is a part of any treatment plan.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/guidelines.html
AAP recommendations:
Diagnosis & Evaluation
The primary care clinician should provide initiate an evaluation for ADHD for any child 4 through 18 years of age who shows presents with academic or behavioral problems and symptoms of inattention, hyperactivity, or impulsivity.
To make a diagnosis of ADHD, the primary care clinician should determine that diagnostic criteria have been met based on Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders – Fifth edition (DSM-5, which replaced the Fourth Edition (DSM-IV) in May 2013). Making a diagnosis includes documenting that the child is impaired in more than 1 major setting (e.g., in school and at home). The primary care clinician should include reports from parents or guardians, teachers, and/or other school and mental health clinicians involved in the child’s care. The primary care clinician should also rule out any other possible cause.
• When evaluating a child for ADHD, the primary care clinician should assess whether other conditions are present that might coexist with ADHD, including emotional or behavioral (e.g., anxiety, depressive, oppositional defiant, and conduct disorders), developmental (e.g., learning and language disorders or other neurodevelopmental disorders), and physical (e.g., tics, sleep apnea) conditions.
The primary care clinician should recognize ADHD as a chronic condition and, therefore, consider children and adolescents with ADHD as children and youth with special health care needs. Care for such children and youth should follow the principles of the chronic care model and the medical home.
Treatment:
For elementary school–aged children (6–11 years of age), the primary care clinician should prescribe US Food and Drug Administration–approved medications for ADHD and/or evidence-based parentand/or teacher-administered behavior therapy as treatment for ADHD, preferably both. The evidence is particularly strong for stimulant medications and sufficient but less strong for atomoxetine, extended-release guanfacine, and extended-release clonidine (in that order). The school environment, program, or placement is a part of any treatment plan.
LovingRadiance
Active member
Children with ADHD continued
Why is it that our primary doctor won't evaluate SourPea's behavioral issues to discuss WHAT may be the issue (theoretically could be something else)? The therapist who sees Maca, GG, me, SpicyPea, SweetPea, my mother AND my sister won't evaluate SourPea. She recommended another therapist.
I called them and the answer was "We can't see her because she's under 8, maybe you can call xxx or yyy." NO REFERRAL. Both offices are "not accepting any new patients."
I finally reached SpicyPea's old pediatrician (yes, it's been awhile since she was pediatric) and they agreed to see her and give me a referral. BUT HOLY SHIT! If a parent calls and says their child is exhibiting behavioral problems and they need help, blowing them off is ENDANGERING the child. What if her behavioral issues are caused by a fucking brain tumor? Cause god knows I am NOT A MEDICAL DOCTOR! Sheesh!!!!!
Why is it that our primary doctor won't evaluate SourPea's behavioral issues to discuss WHAT may be the issue (theoretically could be something else)? The therapist who sees Maca, GG, me, SpicyPea, SweetPea, my mother AND my sister won't evaluate SourPea. She recommended another therapist.
I called them and the answer was "We can't see her because she's under 8, maybe you can call xxx or yyy." NO REFERRAL. Both offices are "not accepting any new patients."
I finally reached SpicyPea's old pediatrician (yes, it's been awhile since she was pediatric) and they agreed to see her and give me a referral. BUT HOLY SHIT! If a parent calls and says their child is exhibiting behavioral problems and they need help, blowing them off is ENDANGERING the child. What if her behavioral issues are caused by a fucking brain tumor? Cause god knows I am NOT A MEDICAL DOCTOR! Sheesh!!!!!
LovingRadiance
Active member
LovingRadiance
Active member
Sneac, yes. I returned to school in the summer of 2011. That was 1 class. I then increased to 2 classes in the fall of 2011. I have done 2-3 classes every semester since, except last summer, this summer and this fall (no classes).
Before I took the first class, we spent about a year (Maca, GG and I) discussing the need for me to return to school (for long-term finances) and what would be necessary to make that POSSIBLE.
We discussed that they would need to take over a significant amount of the load of responsibility I was handling, such as ensuring kids got chores done, maintaining kids routines/schedules for chores, schools, etc. (which is ESPECIALLY important because both kids are ADD & home schooled), grading of school papers, most of SourPea's school (because she is so young she still requires a lot of "teaching," whereas SweetPea is very independent and knows how to research anything he gets stuck on), house cleaning, maintenance, etc.
We came up with a plan. GG was going to school SourPea, Maca was going to help with grading SweetPea's papers, because GG wasn't able to identify right/wrong answers, or help with explaining parts that were wrong, so that SweetPea could correct them.
GG was going to maintain a 3-midnight schedule so he could do school with SourPea and maintain the kids' daily schedule (up at 7am, showers, chores, breakfast, medication for SweetPea, school). That would leave SweetPea watching SourPea from about 2:30 until Maca was home from work (usually about 4) on days I was gone.
I tried to manipulate my schedule by taking one or two classes in the EARLY morning (so I was out the door by 5:30am) in Anchorage (where most of my classes are, on the main campus) so I could be home by 3 and one evening class (after dinner) in Matsu, which has a few lower-level classes available, but very limited options, and all of them on only two days a week.
So for example: Monday/Wednesday-out the door by 5:30 to Anchorage, home by 3, back out the door at 6:30 and home by 9. No classes Tuesday, Thursday, Friday or weekends. I would work on home work as I could around SweetPea needing help (rare) and daily chores. Tuesdays I took the kids to piano lessons from 10am-11:30am. So that left GG free on Tuesdays.
HOWEVER, GG didn't stick to that schedule. He kept backing it up earlier and earlier. First I changed to only one class during the day and two in the evening. But it kept getting earlier, to the point where any classes during the day left SweetPea watching SourPea because GG was leaving by 12:30-1.
Then, when I returned home from my trip to Disneyland, he had changed his schedule to working 9 or 10am until 7 or 8 pm. So that would mean no daytime classes at all for me. Except I have only upper division classes left now and they are ALL on the Anchorage campus and primarily during the day.
This is the year I was going to have to start being on campus 4-5 days a week.
Before I took the first class, we spent about a year (Maca, GG and I) discussing the need for me to return to school (for long-term finances) and what would be necessary to make that POSSIBLE.
We discussed that they would need to take over a significant amount of the load of responsibility I was handling, such as ensuring kids got chores done, maintaining kids routines/schedules for chores, schools, etc. (which is ESPECIALLY important because both kids are ADD & home schooled), grading of school papers, most of SourPea's school (because she is so young she still requires a lot of "teaching," whereas SweetPea is very independent and knows how to research anything he gets stuck on), house cleaning, maintenance, etc.
We came up with a plan. GG was going to school SourPea, Maca was going to help with grading SweetPea's papers, because GG wasn't able to identify right/wrong answers, or help with explaining parts that were wrong, so that SweetPea could correct them.
GG was going to maintain a 3-midnight schedule so he could do school with SourPea and maintain the kids' daily schedule (up at 7am, showers, chores, breakfast, medication for SweetPea, school). That would leave SweetPea watching SourPea from about 2:30 until Maca was home from work (usually about 4) on days I was gone.
I tried to manipulate my schedule by taking one or two classes in the EARLY morning (so I was out the door by 5:30am) in Anchorage (where most of my classes are, on the main campus) so I could be home by 3 and one evening class (after dinner) in Matsu, which has a few lower-level classes available, but very limited options, and all of them on only two days a week.
So for example: Monday/Wednesday-out the door by 5:30 to Anchorage, home by 3, back out the door at 6:30 and home by 9. No classes Tuesday, Thursday, Friday or weekends. I would work on home work as I could around SweetPea needing help (rare) and daily chores. Tuesdays I took the kids to piano lessons from 10am-11:30am. So that left GG free on Tuesdays.
HOWEVER, GG didn't stick to that schedule. He kept backing it up earlier and earlier. First I changed to only one class during the day and two in the evening. But it kept getting earlier, to the point where any classes during the day left SweetPea watching SourPea because GG was leaving by 12:30-1.
Then, when I returned home from my trip to Disneyland, he had changed his schedule to working 9 or 10am until 7 or 8 pm. So that would mean no daytime classes at all for me. Except I have only upper division classes left now and they are ALL on the Anchorage campus and primarily during the day.
This is the year I was going to have to start being on campus 4-5 days a week.
SNeacail
New member
When my SIL went back to school, things with her husband went from bad to worse. When I started making more money than my husband, things started to really go down hill (I now make twice what he does). I've seen and heard this a lot, especially if the spouse/partner has no desire to go back to school themselves nor the ability to make more money or otherwise advance in their job. Many times, especially with the passive-aggressive types, they say they support you and tell everyone it's a good thing and they are proud of you, but their actions and behavior just makes your life more and more difficult, to the point you think your going to loose your mind and need to be committed to a mental facility.
My SIL's was much more in your face: "Why do you need to go back to school? Who are you trying to impress? You're just going to think I'm an idiot?" (He can be an idiot, but that's beside the point), etc. I just watched an 18 year old girl go through similar shit with her mother. She would do all sorts of underhanded shit to discourage her daughter from going to college, but only when the girl's dad wasn't around. That situation is so not ending well, now that the girl's dad has been duly informed (beat over the head) about stuff that was going on behind his back.
My SIL's was much more in your face: "Why do you need to go back to school? Who are you trying to impress? You're just going to think I'm an idiot?" (He can be an idiot, but that's beside the point), etc. I just watched an 18 year old girl go through similar shit with her mother. She would do all sorts of underhanded shit to discourage her daughter from going to college, but only when the girl's dad wasn't around. That situation is so not ending well, now that the girl's dad has been duly informed (beat over the head) about stuff that was going on behind his back.
LovingRadiance
Active member
To be honest, I can't even begin to guess as to what is going on in GG's mind or what has been. He flat checked out of the family as a whole. It wasn't just me or just the kids or just the household responsibilities he bailed on. He quit having anything to do with anyone or anything outside of work. Period.
I talked to his sister yesterday (because she's the one who has just started a daycare in our area). She told me she saw him this last weekend. Asked how things were going. I didn't elaborate. Our personal issues aren't hers. But I asked if she had his new number and she said no. Mind you, this is the ONE sibling he gets along with well. She's maintained close relationships with all of the kids and all of us.
So he saw her over the weekend, and didn't tell her he has a new number (his previous cell was a company phone). He didn't tell her he lost his job. He didn't tell her ANYTHING, even though they hung out and "caught up."
*eyebrow raise*
I contacted her to inquire about the daycare as a possibility for SourPea. She says "Why are you looking for before/after school care? Isn't GG home schooling her?"
Um... not anymore, it wasn't going well.
"Oh yeah, because of how many hours he works? That's a bummer. I hope he gets a new job soon."
Um... he doesn't work there anymore.
"WHAT?"
Yeah, he lost that job a couple weeks ago.
I don't even know what to think. But it's not new.
His best friend was in a couple of my classes at the college. REGULARLY he would ask me how things were going. He would tell me he had emailed/texted/facebook msg'd GG and not heard from him at all.
At this point, I can't really talk to him. I have nothing nice to say and every conversation ticks me off.
This weekend, SourPea was in trouble, big trouble. He gets on the phone and plays Mr. Buddy with her. Saturday evening, I sent him a DETAILED email letting him know that it pisses me off when he chooses to be her "buddy" instead of her "parent," but simultaneously expects parental privileges. Sunday I got a message telling me he loved me and hoped I was having a good day. I told him I was waiting for a reply to my message.
Monday he replied "Are you saying you think I don't parent her?" I responded "Yes."
He then elaborated that he knew he had been lackadaisical about parenting responsibilities because he was always thinking about work, but that had changed and wouldn't happen again. I replied that I wasn't TALKING about "back when he was working" that, AS I SAID in my message, I was referring to THE CURRENT conversations (and I re-iterated the EXACT circumstances). I finished by telling him I was far too frustrated to continue the conversation, but he CLEARLY wasn't understanding the problem and to please call Maca so they could discuss it. (Maca knew all of this, including what I had written from the beginning, and what the issue is. We are all coparenting, so it is his business as, well. This isn't a "personal relationship" topic.)
He did not call Maca. I continued to wait him out. In the meantime, I have to continue working on HOW I'm going to make everything work with our lives, and that includes figuring out school/meds/etc. for Sour Pea.
Yesterday he gets upset because he didn't know about the decision to put her in public school and he doesn't like it. I snidely (yes, I know, not mature) responded that IF he had called to talk to Maca about the issue we were discussing MONDAY, that could have been resolved, and then we could all have continued discussing the decisions being made.
So he texts Maca and asks why public school, and goes on about why he thinks its a bad idea (which is lovely, not one of us thinks it's a great idea, it's a matter of figuring out what WILL WORK, and saying that is a bad idea doesn't in any way suggest what might be a good one.)
Anyway, they have a conversation about the school BS. But NOTHING is addressed about the continued "friend" behavior with the child. At that point, which was late last night, I was FURIOUS. I sent him a text saying that he needs to freaking figure out the friend vs parent issue before moving on to the next damn topic.
He evidently sent Maca a text asking something regarding that and Maca responded with the example (same one I gave) of this past weekend. Nothing more was said.
OK, that STILL does not tell me or anyone that you UNDERSTAND the problem. Nor does it address WHAT you intend to do about it. In point of fact, it's actually non-communication.
I say, "This is an issue."
You say "I'm sorry."
OK... SO WHAT?!?!!
For it to be communication there would need to be something to the effect of
"This is an issue."
"I hear you saying xxxxx is an issue. Is that what you meant?"
"Yes/no."
If no, clarification of meaning and repeat above.
If yes, "Oh. Well I was thinking [...], but I can see how that would be a problem."
Followed by EITHER asking, "Did you have a suggestion for a better idea?" or, "I am thinking it would be better if [...]. What do you think?"
THEN, when both parties agree on, "What would be better..."
"Ok, so I am going to probably struggle to remember xxxx at yyyy times. Would you be willing to remind me by saying X or doing Y at those times, if I am not on track?"
Or
"I am going to do [...] to be sure I stay on track."
OR SOME PLAN OF ACTION.
But that never happens. Literally never happens. If I try to carry the conversation out, he gets pissed and says he can't focus and ends the conversation. He NEVER EVER tries to carry it out. If I don't make the concerted effort to INSIST on the responses, then he says "I'm sorry" and goes back to messages like the following post...
I talked to his sister yesterday (because she's the one who has just started a daycare in our area). She told me she saw him this last weekend. Asked how things were going. I didn't elaborate. Our personal issues aren't hers. But I asked if she had his new number and she said no. Mind you, this is the ONE sibling he gets along with well. She's maintained close relationships with all of the kids and all of us.
So he saw her over the weekend, and didn't tell her he has a new number (his previous cell was a company phone). He didn't tell her he lost his job. He didn't tell her ANYTHING, even though they hung out and "caught up."
*eyebrow raise*
I contacted her to inquire about the daycare as a possibility for SourPea. She says "Why are you looking for before/after school care? Isn't GG home schooling her?"
Um... not anymore, it wasn't going well.
"Oh yeah, because of how many hours he works? That's a bummer. I hope he gets a new job soon."
Um... he doesn't work there anymore.
"WHAT?"
Yeah, he lost that job a couple weeks ago.
I don't even know what to think. But it's not new.
His best friend was in a couple of my classes at the college. REGULARLY he would ask me how things were going. He would tell me he had emailed/texted/facebook msg'd GG and not heard from him at all.
At this point, I can't really talk to him. I have nothing nice to say and every conversation ticks me off.
This weekend, SourPea was in trouble, big trouble. He gets on the phone and plays Mr. Buddy with her. Saturday evening, I sent him a DETAILED email letting him know that it pisses me off when he chooses to be her "buddy" instead of her "parent," but simultaneously expects parental privileges. Sunday I got a message telling me he loved me and hoped I was having a good day. I told him I was waiting for a reply to my message.
Monday he replied "Are you saying you think I don't parent her?" I responded "Yes."
He then elaborated that he knew he had been lackadaisical about parenting responsibilities because he was always thinking about work, but that had changed and wouldn't happen again. I replied that I wasn't TALKING about "back when he was working" that, AS I SAID in my message, I was referring to THE CURRENT conversations (and I re-iterated the EXACT circumstances). I finished by telling him I was far too frustrated to continue the conversation, but he CLEARLY wasn't understanding the problem and to please call Maca so they could discuss it. (Maca knew all of this, including what I had written from the beginning, and what the issue is. We are all coparenting, so it is his business as, well. This isn't a "personal relationship" topic.)
He did not call Maca. I continued to wait him out. In the meantime, I have to continue working on HOW I'm going to make everything work with our lives, and that includes figuring out school/meds/etc. for Sour Pea.
Yesterday he gets upset because he didn't know about the decision to put her in public school and he doesn't like it. I snidely (yes, I know, not mature) responded that IF he had called to talk to Maca about the issue we were discussing MONDAY, that could have been resolved, and then we could all have continued discussing the decisions being made.
So he texts Maca and asks why public school, and goes on about why he thinks its a bad idea (which is lovely, not one of us thinks it's a great idea, it's a matter of figuring out what WILL WORK, and saying that is a bad idea doesn't in any way suggest what might be a good one.)
Anyway, they have a conversation about the school BS. But NOTHING is addressed about the continued "friend" behavior with the child. At that point, which was late last night, I was FURIOUS. I sent him a text saying that he needs to freaking figure out the friend vs parent issue before moving on to the next damn topic.
He evidently sent Maca a text asking something regarding that and Maca responded with the example (same one I gave) of this past weekend. Nothing more was said.
OK, that STILL does not tell me or anyone that you UNDERSTAND the problem. Nor does it address WHAT you intend to do about it. In point of fact, it's actually non-communication.
I say, "This is an issue."
You say "I'm sorry."
OK... SO WHAT?!?!!
For it to be communication there would need to be something to the effect of
"This is an issue."
"I hear you saying xxxxx is an issue. Is that what you meant?"
"Yes/no."
If no, clarification of meaning and repeat above.
If yes, "Oh. Well I was thinking [...], but I can see how that would be a problem."
Followed by EITHER asking, "Did you have a suggestion for a better idea?" or, "I am thinking it would be better if [...]. What do you think?"
THEN, when both parties agree on, "What would be better..."
"Ok, so I am going to probably struggle to remember xxxx at yyyy times. Would you be willing to remind me by saying X or doing Y at those times, if I am not on track?"
Or
"I am going to do [...] to be sure I stay on track."
OR SOME PLAN OF ACTION.
But that never happens. Literally never happens. If I try to carry the conversation out, he gets pissed and says he can't focus and ends the conversation. He NEVER EVER tries to carry it out. If I don't make the concerted effort to INSIST on the responses, then he says "I'm sorry" and goes back to messages like the following post...
LovingRadiance
Active member
"I love you and Maca and SourPea and SweetPea and our family... OUR family. I'm not willing to let it go. My life isn't worth anything unless I can be trusted and relied on. I'm working to make that happen again." Which he put in the middle of his explanation about how it was only because of his job that he was being a "friend" to Sour Pea and not a "parent."
Or
"I love you, hope you are having a great day. XO"
OR
My favorite: clicking "like" on all of my FB posts, posting random shit on my page (as of yesterday I started deleting those), or writing little cutesy "love you so much" or "this is so cute" shit on pics I post. As if saying "sweet nothings" for everyone to see is going to somehow address the issue.
In the meantime, I'm left wondering, "Um... did you FORGET we were having a discussion about a serious issue that we need to resolve, or do you just not give a shit?"
If I ask, he says things like "No. But I thought we'd finished that conversation. I said I was sorry."
And finally, when he gets tired of me not dropping the UNRESOLVED TOPIC, I get the poor pitiful me: "Why can't you love me for who I am? You are always so angry and nothing I do is good enough" messages.
Can you say, "I don't do sweeping or rugs?" Fucking deal with it or fuck off, but don't sweep it under the rug and expect me to get over it.
Or
"I love you, hope you are having a great day. XO"
OR
My favorite: clicking "like" on all of my FB posts, posting random shit on my page (as of yesterday I started deleting those), or writing little cutesy "love you so much" or "this is so cute" shit on pics I post. As if saying "sweet nothings" for everyone to see is going to somehow address the issue.
In the meantime, I'm left wondering, "Um... did you FORGET we were having a discussion about a serious issue that we need to resolve, or do you just not give a shit?"
If I ask, he says things like "No. But I thought we'd finished that conversation. I said I was sorry."
And finally, when he gets tired of me not dropping the UNRESOLVED TOPIC, I get the poor pitiful me: "Why can't you love me for who I am? You are always so angry and nothing I do is good enough" messages.
Can you say, "I don't do sweeping or rugs?" Fucking deal with it or fuck off, but don't sweep it under the rug and expect me to get over it.
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LovingRadiance
Active member
But mostly I don't hear from him at all, and I've quit trying to contact him. I can't see the point in talking-when he doesn't understand what I'm talking about & isn't motivated to continue talking until he does. So why bother?
Uh yeah, he definitely uses lip service to get himself out of trouble. Don't want to parent? Smooth it over with lip service. Don't understand what parenting is? Smooth it over with lip service.
It's good that you're not contacting him much. He's only going to make you feel like a bi-otch for not accepting his lip service offerings.
I don't suppose there's any way to prevent the kids from talking to him when they're being disciplined?
It's good that you're not contacting him much. He's only going to make you feel like a bi-otch for not accepting his lip service offerings.
I don't suppose there's any way to prevent the kids from talking to him when they're being disciplined?
LovingRadiance
Active member
Yes, there is, which is what I have been doing. I quit letting her talk on the phone to him. He is upset because it's a "parental privilege." I want to see PARENTAL RESPONSIBILITY if he wants PARENTAL PRIVILEGE. She hasn't been allowed to talk to anyone but Maca and me.
The kicker is he doesn't understand what he's doing that is a problem, and therefore feels like I'm being unfair.
As far as what I "can" do, he has absolutely no legal rights over any of the children, period. Therefore, his options for contact with the two who are left at home is completely at Maca's and my discretion.
The three of us AGREED to coparent. But coparenting requires PARENTING in the first place. His argument is that he deserves to talk to her. Mine is that he needs to operate as a parent. If he's going to act like a friend, he gets friend privileges, which doesn't include talking to or seeing her when she's in trouble.
If he wants parental privileges (regular visitations and contact without disruptions), then he has to uphold the rules, enforce the consequences, etc. If I have to TELL HIM to do the work, that's me parenting him, the same way I would tell SweetPea what I expect him to do while he's babysitting. If you are a damn babysitter, you aren't a parent, and you aren't going to get the guaranteed contact.
The kicker is he doesn't understand what he's doing that is a problem, and therefore feels like I'm being unfair.
As far as what I "can" do, he has absolutely no legal rights over any of the children, period. Therefore, his options for contact with the two who are left at home is completely at Maca's and my discretion.
The three of us AGREED to coparent. But coparenting requires PARENTING in the first place. His argument is that he deserves to talk to her. Mine is that he needs to operate as a parent. If he's going to act like a friend, he gets friend privileges, which doesn't include talking to or seeing her when she's in trouble.
If he wants parental privileges (regular visitations and contact without disruptions), then he has to uphold the rules, enforce the consequences, etc. If I have to TELL HIM to do the work, that's me parenting him, the same way I would tell SweetPea what I expect him to do while he's babysitting. If you are a damn babysitter, you aren't a parent, and you aren't going to get the guaranteed contact.
Re:
Well, look. Suppose your child was in a burning house, and he kept yelling at her to save this or that toy and toss it out the window. Meanwhile a ladder has been set up to her window, and is waiting for her so she can climb out. The flames are raging on the roof over her head.
So, you tell GG to shut the hell up so you can direct your child to save herself and step onto the ladder. GG's feelings are hurt. "I was only trying to help her," he says. "I said I was sorry, why are you complaining?" he says. "Why can't you just love me for who I am?" he says.
In the meantime, the roof is about to collapse on your daughter's head. My point is, there are certain priorities here, and in this parable, the first priority is saving your daughter's life. GG's cluelessness and hurt feelings will have to be dealt with later; there isn't time to try to reason with him right now.
The same thing is happening with respect to parenting. He is causing damage (to Sour Pea's maturity level) that will take years to undo. As the adult, he has to accept second place in line after the child. He may not understand why and it may hurt his feelings, but you only get one shot at raising Sour Pea. You don't have time to try to reason with GG right now. Because reasoning with him would be an epic undertaking. His therapist would certainly have to be involved.
Re:
And he's wrong. He doesn't deserve to talk to her. Because he damages her upbringing when he talks to her. A concept that will have to be explained to him at some other time, because there just isn't time and opportunity to attempt it right now. I guess he'll have to pout and throw a fit. That's too bad. He doesn't get favored status over Sour Pea. He's the adult. She's the child.
Re:
And you know, friend privileges aren't all that bad. You're not telling him he can *never* talk to her -- just that he can't talk to her when she's being disciplined. Is it really going to kill him to butt out from time to time? I don't think so.
I hope I'm not being too harsh or assertive here. I just think it's important for GG to distance himself from the family right now, at least in proportion to what he can appropriately handle. I'm sorry he doesn't understand why things have to be this way, but you can't just wave a magic wand that will make him understand. He has a lot of work ahead of him before he'll understand. Meanwhile, a child is in need of responsible, consistent parenting *right now.* She has a right to that.
Well, look. Suppose your child was in a burning house, and he kept yelling at her to save this or that toy and toss it out the window. Meanwhile a ladder has been set up to her window, and is waiting for her so she can climb out. The flames are raging on the roof over her head.
So, you tell GG to shut the hell up so you can direct your child to save herself and step onto the ladder. GG's feelings are hurt. "I was only trying to help her," he says. "I said I was sorry, why are you complaining?" he says. "Why can't you just love me for who I am?" he says.
In the meantime, the roof is about to collapse on your daughter's head. My point is, there are certain priorities here, and in this parable, the first priority is saving your daughter's life. GG's cluelessness and hurt feelings will have to be dealt with later; there isn't time to try to reason with him right now.
The same thing is happening with respect to parenting. He is causing damage (to Sour Pea's maturity level) that will take years to undo. As the adult, he has to accept second place in line after the child. He may not understand why and it may hurt his feelings, but you only get one shot at raising Sour Pea. You don't have time to try to reason with GG right now. Because reasoning with him would be an epic undertaking. His therapist would certainly have to be involved.
Re:
And he's wrong. He doesn't deserve to talk to her. Because he damages her upbringing when he talks to her. A concept that will have to be explained to him at some other time, because there just isn't time and opportunity to attempt it right now. I guess he'll have to pout and throw a fit. That's too bad. He doesn't get favored status over Sour Pea. He's the adult. She's the child.
Re:
And you know, friend privileges aren't all that bad. You're not telling him he can *never* talk to her -- just that he can't talk to her when she's being disciplined. Is it really going to kill him to butt out from time to time? I don't think so.
I hope I'm not being too harsh or assertive here. I just think it's important for GG to distance himself from the family right now, at least in proportion to what he can appropriately handle. I'm sorry he doesn't understand why things have to be this way, but you can't just wave a magic wand that will make him understand. He has a lot of work ahead of him before he'll understand. Meanwhile, a child is in need of responsible, consistent parenting *right now.* She has a right to that.
LovingRadiance
Active member
Agree.
I'm laughing because I know you don't have children, and it cracks me up that some of the most clear-headed people in regards to the priorities of children don't have them.
LovingRadiance
Active member
I just figured out how to copy those from a thread on here from years ago. THAT is what IS NOT happening in my communications with GG.
LovingRadiance
Active member
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255&highlight=communication&page=5
Post 48 by Redpepper:
I went to an afternoon course last week on Compassionate Communication or Non-violent Communication (NVC). It was a work thing, but as usual, translated nicely into my real life. The facilitator was a local woman that had just written her master's thesis using the theories of NVC with the movie "The Wizard of Oz."
The movie starts with Dorothy getting into a dispute over Toto, her dog, and a neighbor woman who wants to impound him. Toto is considered a symbol of Dorothy's self being threatened. Dorothy is very upset and goes to look for someone to talk to about it. All her regular support systems are not available (auntie and uncle) and she begins to spiral into herself-- the tornado.
When Dorothy lands on her feet again, everything has changed. She begins a journey on the yellow brick road to discover herself, and in doing so, discovers how to take care of her own needs.
First she meets Scarecrow, who is looking for his brain. Oftentimes when we go through a trauma, we only seem to have emotions and our brain doesn't click in. Sometimes it makes us feel stupid and as if we should pull ourselves together in some way.
Then Dorothy meets Tin Man, who is looking for his heart, another part of the self that feels as if it goes missing, as we are unable to empathize with others and be in the world with other people. We are also unable to love ourselves sometimes.
In the scary forest Dorothy meets Cowardly Lion, who is her inner self feeling afraid and unable to face anything because they feel so damaged and crazy with their situation.
The Wicked Witch of the West comes onto the scene several times and is a reminder of what happened to get her into this state in the first place. She is constantly trying to lure Dorothy back to her trauma state, where she will not be on her road to discovery anymore and re-live the experience over and over again.
The poppy field where the group of friends fall asleep is where addictions come in to play. Sometimes it's easier to avoid the path and just sleep through life... Addictions can be anything from drugs and alcohol to over-working or filling one's life up with things to do so as to avoid discovering ourselves.
When Dorothy and her friends reach the Emerald City, which is symbolic of the ever-elusive material gift that some people think they will get if they could only achieve better things in their lives, she discovers the Wizard. Much to her disappointment, the Wizard is just an old man behind a curtain. He is also an illusion of someone that will take all her pain away and magically get her home.... or make her understand herself, feel safe and wanted in life.
The Wizard says to her, "I am a bad wizard, but a good man." Sometimes people think that it is a person that will make us be better. When it is discovered that they are only human, too, there is anger and resentment there.
The Good Witch is that constant reminder that we have people in our life that will stay by us while we discover ourselves. Sometimes that can manifest in having a favorite place or activity to do. The Good Witch suggests to Dorothy that she click her heels together in her ruby slippers and get herself home. She had the power to do anything she wanted all along. She just needed to realize that for herself.
Wow. This was so moving, and has made me think of my own tornados in life. I have them every day in small ways... some of them are much bigger. I seem to be on several yellow brick roads all at once, too.
I hope this gives others food for thought. Of course, I haven't done it all justice, and I am sure that the facilitator's thesis is very thorough.
Post 48 by Redpepper:
I went to an afternoon course last week on Compassionate Communication or Non-violent Communication (NVC). It was a work thing, but as usual, translated nicely into my real life. The facilitator was a local woman that had just written her master's thesis using the theories of NVC with the movie "The Wizard of Oz."
The movie starts with Dorothy getting into a dispute over Toto, her dog, and a neighbor woman who wants to impound him. Toto is considered a symbol of Dorothy's self being threatened. Dorothy is very upset and goes to look for someone to talk to about it. All her regular support systems are not available (auntie and uncle) and she begins to spiral into herself-- the tornado.
When Dorothy lands on her feet again, everything has changed. She begins a journey on the yellow brick road to discover herself, and in doing so, discovers how to take care of her own needs.
First she meets Scarecrow, who is looking for his brain. Oftentimes when we go through a trauma, we only seem to have emotions and our brain doesn't click in. Sometimes it makes us feel stupid and as if we should pull ourselves together in some way.
Then Dorothy meets Tin Man, who is looking for his heart, another part of the self that feels as if it goes missing, as we are unable to empathize with others and be in the world with other people. We are also unable to love ourselves sometimes.
In the scary forest Dorothy meets Cowardly Lion, who is her inner self feeling afraid and unable to face anything because they feel so damaged and crazy with their situation.
The Wicked Witch of the West comes onto the scene several times and is a reminder of what happened to get her into this state in the first place. She is constantly trying to lure Dorothy back to her trauma state, where she will not be on her road to discovery anymore and re-live the experience over and over again.
The poppy field where the group of friends fall asleep is where addictions come in to play. Sometimes it's easier to avoid the path and just sleep through life... Addictions can be anything from drugs and alcohol to over-working or filling one's life up with things to do so as to avoid discovering ourselves.
When Dorothy and her friends reach the Emerald City, which is symbolic of the ever-elusive material gift that some people think they will get if they could only achieve better things in their lives, she discovers the Wizard. Much to her disappointment, the Wizard is just an old man behind a curtain. He is also an illusion of someone that will take all her pain away and magically get her home.... or make her understand herself, feel safe and wanted in life.
The Wizard says to her, "I am a bad wizard, but a good man." Sometimes people think that it is a person that will make us be better. When it is discovered that they are only human, too, there is anger and resentment there.
The Good Witch is that constant reminder that we have people in our life that will stay by us while we discover ourselves. Sometimes that can manifest in having a favorite place or activity to do. The Good Witch suggests to Dorothy that she click her heels together in her ruby slippers and get herself home. She had the power to do anything she wanted all along. She just needed to realize that for herself.
Wow. This was so moving, and has made me think of my own tornados in life. I have them every day in small ways... some of them are much bigger. I seem to be on several yellow brick roads all at once, too.
I hope this gives others food for thought. Of course, I haven't done it all justice, and I am sure that the facilitator's thesis is very thorough.
LovingRadiance
Active member
Believe me, for as obnoxious as it might sound, it freaking works. After 11 years together we suddenly found happy doing this. And I do mean SUDDENLY. The DAY we started doing the step I outline below, our whole life changed. I'm sharing it here, as Ceoli asked me to after I shared some of it on another thread.
IF you want a RELATIONSHIP you have to COMMUNICATE. Not talk. COMMUNICATE. Name calling, yelling, walking out aren't helpful in communicating.
FIRST
Slow down!
TAKE ONE PERSON'S SINGLE SUBJECT For example, YOUR take on safe sex. You say ONE sentence, he repeats it back in HIS OWN WORDS "If I understand you correctly you are saying _____. Is that correct?" If so, you say yes. JUST YES. Then he can ask "Is there anything else?"
You get THREE sentences. THAT'S IT.
Then it's his turn, and you do the SAME THING.
Once he gets his three, you switch again. KEEP GOING until you BOTH understand each other's point of view. THEN GO HOME and digest it.
[This step is easily skipped. BAD IDEA!! Each step was designed for its ability to benefit YOU and YOUR relationship. Don't waste time by skipping around. The steps work TOGETHER.]
THEN come back and do it again about dealing with it.
Example:
"I don't feel I can have a sexual relationship with you, because I don't feel safe with your terms for safe sex."
"If I understand you correctly, you aren't feeling safe, and therefore you want to stop having sexual relations with me. Is this correct?"
"Yes."
"Anything else?" [no sarcasm, be sincerely interested]
"Yes. I love you very much and I want to be friends, but I don't know how to change the dynamic of our relationship without hurting you/me."
"If I understand you correctly, you love me, and even though you don't feel safe enough to have sex with me, you want to remain friends, but aren't sure how to get from where we are to being friends without causing damage. Is that correct?"
"Yes"
"Is there more?"
"I am scared that you don't love me as much as I love you, and therefore you won't care about how important it is to me to have you in my life."
"If I understand you correctly, you are afraid I don't love you enough to work through this with you so we can remain friends. Is this correct?"
"Yes."
"Okay, so, to paraphrase, you love me and want to keep me as an important part of your life, but you aren't able to feel safe having sex with me due to my choices in regards to safe sex. This makes you feel hurt, frightened and disappointed. I can understand why. I would feel hurt if I thought you didn't love me as much as I love you, and I feel frightened just thinking that there is a chance we can't find a way to remain friends, at the very least. I imagine it's disappointing to you to think I wouldn't care about these things like you do."
At this point, nothing has been "solved," but a connection has been made with your partner, and understanding has been achieved about what the issue REALLY IS for your partner.
Now you switch, and maybe it goes like this...
IF you want a RELATIONSHIP you have to COMMUNICATE. Not talk. COMMUNICATE. Name calling, yelling, walking out aren't helpful in communicating.
FIRST
Slow down!
TAKE ONE PERSON'S SINGLE SUBJECT For example, YOUR take on safe sex. You say ONE sentence, he repeats it back in HIS OWN WORDS "If I understand you correctly you are saying _____. Is that correct?" If so, you say yes. JUST YES. Then he can ask "Is there anything else?"
You get THREE sentences. THAT'S IT.
Then it's his turn, and you do the SAME THING.
Once he gets his three, you switch again. KEEP GOING until you BOTH understand each other's point of view. THEN GO HOME and digest it.
[This step is easily skipped. BAD IDEA!! Each step was designed for its ability to benefit YOU and YOUR relationship. Don't waste time by skipping around. The steps work TOGETHER.]
THEN come back and do it again about dealing with it.
Example:
"I don't feel I can have a sexual relationship with you, because I don't feel safe with your terms for safe sex."
"If I understand you correctly, you aren't feeling safe, and therefore you want to stop having sexual relations with me. Is this correct?"
"Yes."
"Anything else?" [no sarcasm, be sincerely interested]
"Yes. I love you very much and I want to be friends, but I don't know how to change the dynamic of our relationship without hurting you/me."
"If I understand you correctly, you love me, and even though you don't feel safe enough to have sex with me, you want to remain friends, but aren't sure how to get from where we are to being friends without causing damage. Is that correct?"
"Yes"
"Is there more?"
"I am scared that you don't love me as much as I love you, and therefore you won't care about how important it is to me to have you in my life."
"If I understand you correctly, you are afraid I don't love you enough to work through this with you so we can remain friends. Is this correct?"
"Yes."
"Okay, so, to paraphrase, you love me and want to keep me as an important part of your life, but you aren't able to feel safe having sex with me due to my choices in regards to safe sex. This makes you feel hurt, frightened and disappointed. I can understand why. I would feel hurt if I thought you didn't love me as much as I love you, and I feel frightened just thinking that there is a chance we can't find a way to remain friends, at the very least. I imagine it's disappointing to you to think I wouldn't care about these things like you do."
At this point, nothing has been "solved," but a connection has been made with your partner, and understanding has been achieved about what the issue REALLY IS for your partner.
Now you switch, and maybe it goes like this...
LovingRadiance
Active member
"I feel like you don't trust me to ensure that I use safe (enough) sex practices with my other partners."
"If I understand you correctly, you feel like I don't trust in your safe sex practices. Is that correct?"
"Yes."
"Is there more?"
"I feel like I'm using the best option I know of, but that's not good enough for you."
"If I understand you correctly, you believe you are using the safest practice available. Is that correct?"
"Yes."
"Is there anything else?"
"I wish, if you had better ideas, you would share them with me so that could take them into consideration, because I love you and I respect your opinions."
"If I understand you correctly, you love me and respect me and want me to share my ideas for safe sex so that you can decide if they are agreeable to you. Is that correct?"
"Yes."
"So to paraphrase, You feel like I don't trust your safe sex practices, you think you are using the best options available, but are interested in hearing any other ideas I have so that you can consider them as possibilities, because you love me and respect my opinion. This must make you feel hurt and discouraged thinking that I don't trust you, frustrated that I might be keeping from you a solution that would be agreeable to both of us, and disappointed that I seem to not approve of you, even though you are trying so hard. I can understand that, because I would feel the same way if I thought you didn't trust me or approve of me and thought you were keeping solutions from me that could help us. I'm going to go home and think about this conversation. I think we can find an amicable solution. Can we talk again tomorrow about it?"
THIS is the point where you GO HOME and THINK about it. Then come back tomorrow with ideas and DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN!!!
Our counselor says all the time: "Connect before correct."
Connect-- make sure you understand, then correct misunderstandings so you can make adjustments, and finally you can make EDUCATED decisions about what to do in order to ensure you meet all parties' needs.
"If I understand you correctly, you feel like I don't trust in your safe sex practices. Is that correct?"
"Yes."
"Is there more?"
"I feel like I'm using the best option I know of, but that's not good enough for you."
"If I understand you correctly, you believe you are using the safest practice available. Is that correct?"
"Yes."
"Is there anything else?"
"I wish, if you had better ideas, you would share them with me so that could take them into consideration, because I love you and I respect your opinions."
"If I understand you correctly, you love me and respect me and want me to share my ideas for safe sex so that you can decide if they are agreeable to you. Is that correct?"
"Yes."
"So to paraphrase, You feel like I don't trust your safe sex practices, you think you are using the best options available, but are interested in hearing any other ideas I have so that you can consider them as possibilities, because you love me and respect my opinion. This must make you feel hurt and discouraged thinking that I don't trust you, frustrated that I might be keeping from you a solution that would be agreeable to both of us, and disappointed that I seem to not approve of you, even though you are trying so hard. I can understand that, because I would feel the same way if I thought you didn't trust me or approve of me and thought you were keeping solutions from me that could help us. I'm going to go home and think about this conversation. I think we can find an amicable solution. Can we talk again tomorrow about it?"
THIS is the point where you GO HOME and THINK about it. Then come back tomorrow with ideas and DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN!!!
Our counselor says all the time: "Connect before correct."
Connect-- make sure you understand, then correct misunderstandings so you can make adjustments, and finally you can make EDUCATED decisions about what to do in order to ensure you meet all parties' needs.
I wouldn't normally weigh in on a personal blog but...
I had a child with my first husband. He was/is an alcoholic and a narcissist. When we split, there were many aspects of who he is and how he behaved I would have loved to never deal with and eliminate from my son's life. Where his safety was concerned, I did restrict time.
But this asshat was my son's biological parent. I could not go back and undo that. I could not undo that my son loved his dad. When he was living a life that was not conducive to caring for a child, I didn't allow visitations; it just wasn't safe.
But I didn't block phone conversations! It's his kid too. He no longer had legal rights to visitations, but that changed nothing, in that my son wanted to talk to his dad. And I had enough faith in my own ability to guide and parent my son to not act like his dad's words through the phone had some immense mind-control ability. This guy you're talking about can't even influence his own actions, but he is somehow a super-powered villain through the phone? I don't see it.
I see you wanting him to change, which I totally get, but you want it to the point of using this kid to punish her dad for not being who you want.
I had a child with my first husband. He was/is an alcoholic and a narcissist. When we split, there were many aspects of who he is and how he behaved I would have loved to never deal with and eliminate from my son's life. Where his safety was concerned, I did restrict time.
But this asshat was my son's biological parent. I could not go back and undo that. I could not undo that my son loved his dad. When he was living a life that was not conducive to caring for a child, I didn't allow visitations; it just wasn't safe.
But I didn't block phone conversations! It's his kid too. He no longer had legal rights to visitations, but that changed nothing, in that my son wanted to talk to his dad. And I had enough faith in my own ability to guide and parent my son to not act like his dad's words through the phone had some immense mind-control ability. This guy you're talking about can't even influence his own actions, but he is somehow a super-powered villain through the phone? I don't see it.
I see you wanting him to change, which I totally get, but you want it to the point of using this kid to punish her dad for not being who you want.