left out of the NRE

[purpleboots]

That could be, BG. Obviously, I can't call her on it. It's not something one would admit to if one were doing it. Whatever the reason, it's one thing to feel an irrational biological imperative to reproduce, another to act on it and enter a family of 5 (soon to be 6) after a few short months.

 

[BoringGuy]

As we have already agreed, for being the pregnant "hormonal" one, you are the one who sounds the most reasonable and rational in all this. I usually say, "Gee, I wish the other people would come here and give their side of the story," but I'm wondering what they could possibly say that would convince me that what they're doing is "right" for everyone all around (not that they HAVE to, obviously), short of calling you a liar.

 

[FullofLove1052]

Seriously, you are the most rational one in the bunch. You are still thinking more clearly than either of them. Pregnancy hormones and all. It seems like they are thinking with their organs and lust, and their brains have turned to mush. Did Garth forget how demanding newborns are? How would he balance relationships with the children that are there, a career, maintain your relationship, maintain their relationship, tend to a newborn, and tend to a pregnant girlfriend? Somebody is inevitably going to get a bum deal. There are only 24 hours in the day. I do wonder. Who would another new baby be best for? If she knew she was ovulating and proceeded to have unprotected sex, I have to say that it looks like she could very well be trying to conceive, especially if they had condoms right there.

 

[purpleboots]

I mean, I care about these people. I don't mean to demonize them. I'm just frustrated and upset and feel blamed for all the problems in the relationship.

At the moment, I feel calmer. Garth is making an effort to cheer me up and make me feel loved right now, and that's helping. I know this should all come from within, but having some help grappling with these heavy feelings is nice.

Helen just got home from work and is skulking around, so that conversation probably won't happen tonight. I tend to let everything out when I'm being emotional, and she doesn't say anything if she is in a mood. It feels very passive aggressive, but maybe I'm just projecting.

 

[GalaGirl]

While ECP is still an option, I don't feel like it's for me to even suggest, not my body and all that. And H probably wouldn't go for it. She wants his babies.

So? Nobody is saying don't have his babies. You can inquire about ECP options before the time window lapses and it's not even an option any more. You have 3 days to get on it after an oopsie, and the sooner the better. Condoms break. Things happen.

They could just not be having babies right now, like this, as an unplanned oopsie thing, when there are so many kids already, one on the way, and crowded living quarters.

Could you all move to a bigger space? Get the kids you have grown a bit more? Space the children out? Get your input and willingness to coparent on board first?

Do they just expect you to help raise this oopsie baby without asking? Maybe you are not willing to help like this. It's being presumptuous, entitled to the max, like this.

If nothing else, send the neighbor kid home and reduce your kid load, mama. You have enough going on. Something like "Just a heads up. Your kid is great. But I cannot watch neighbor kids at this time anymore, because I am moving along in my pregnancy and would like to hunker down." The neighbor doesn't need to know your extra reasons for wanting to de-stress and go into hunker-down mode.

The other thing you can ask is if they would consider changing living arrangements to two homes. Any of you could move out. It was too soon to move Helen in. There is not enough space to begin with, and that is adding to the problems. Could she (or you or him) live across the street? Could everyone move so you can be neighbors in another 2 places? Make more room for the people. It doesn't matter how. Get the conversation moving in that direction. "Neighbor-habit" rather than cohabit. Spread it around. Everyone needs privacy and their own space.

Start talking about solutions that meet all the people's needs here-- the easiest needs to meet first, so you can not just feel like improvements are being made, but know that improvements are being made.

But if you are thinking you don't even want to be in this arrangement anymore, that's another thing. Before all else, where does your willingness lie?

GG

 

[purpleboots]

I would love to have that conversation, GalaGirl. I would have liked for it to be tonight. Instead, Helen came home at 9, and sulked til midnight, at which point Garth and she went for a walk to talk. About 15 minutes later he called me and told me to try talking with her. She seemed upset I wasn't reaching out, which I didn't do, because usually I get shot down when I try, if she is in a mood like that.

Anyway, I was nursing the baby, so I said I would when I was done. Instead, when I was done, I found them in the bedroom, where she was naked and getting a back massage. I asked if I should go. Garth said yes. So now I'm sitting outside trying to avoid hearing them have sex because I just can't handle it right now.

Am I being selfish for feeling pissed off right now? I don't even know if I'm pissed off, or I'm just feeling sad and hopeless. Screw this.

 

[GalaGirl]

I would love to have that conversation...

You could make appointment to do so, then, like, "6 PM sharp," and not "When Baby is done nursing." Nurse Baby while you talk, if you have to. Gotta move this forward.

Am I being selfish for feeling pissed off right now? I don't even know if I'm pissed off, or if I'm just feeling sad and hopeless. Screw this.

I am sorry you hurt.

You were asked to give your time, you tried to make yourself available, and felt devalued because, instead of waiting for baby to be done nursing, watching TV or playing a board game or doing something neutral, they moved on to sex, and that's triggering to choose because...

a) they recently had sex with no condom and have not resolved this issue
b) you know right now he prefers having sex with her
c) you wish you were having more sex with her yourself

Maybe you do not appreciate walking in on them expecting talking time and getting an eyeful of nekkid.

So... yeah. It's annoying that they asked you for your time and you found them doing this triggering behavior instead. You don't trust either right now with boundaries. You do not feel emotionally safe.

Stop judging your feeling upset as "selfish." Just feel it with no extra labels. You could try to let it blow on through, so you get to the place where the "volume level" of your feelings is low enough to start addressing behavior done/not done and not have feelings distracting from the core issues.

If they are not willing to give you clear communication and conflict resolution, you could assess your willingness to keep signing up for more of this in the long run.

I wish I could tell you something different. I do see you struggle.

GG

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Since then, things have progressed to the point where threesomes are no longer happening, she and I haven't had sex in two weeks, G and I have had sex a couple times and I feel inadequate and boring compared to her, and like he'd rather be having sex with her, which he has acknowledged he would. They are caught up in crazy NRE right now, and I feel left behind and rejected. I know my envy/jealousy isn't rational, I'm trying to work through it but its HARD.

Whoever said jealousy/envy is never rational was a moron. In this case, your jealousy and envy is entirely rational. I was thinking this before I read down about their pregnancy attempt.

Yeah, I don't say this too often, but I think people should not be allowed to reproduce however they want.

Fucking rights. Humans should require breeding licenses.

Did Garth forget how demanding newborns are? How would he balance relationships with the children that are there, a career, maintain your relationship, maintain their relationship, tend to a newborn, and tend to a pregnant girlfriend? Somebody is inevitably going to get a bum deal.

"Forget" assumes he ever knew it in the first place. He's expressed that dealing with emotional women is tough. Boohoo. Poor him. So obviously the solution to one hormonal pregnant girlfriend is... another hormonal pregnant girlfriend!

 

[SchrodingersCat]

He seems like a dead-end in terms of communication. What about talking to her?

What about just asking her to move out? You need the space for the existing kids and the baby on the way. It's been admitted that she moved in too soon and clearly that's a mistake.

Explain to her that if she has a baby, you do not agree to be its stay-at-home caregiver. Her baby, her problem.

Seriously, these two should be helping and supporting you through your pregnancy, helping to create a positive and nurturing environment for the children in the home and on the way. Instead, they're making your life hell.

As for welfare, don't forget that he'd be financial responsible for child support on all three kids, even the one that isn't "his," and spousal support for you. At least, that's the law here. Might be different where you're from.

And heck, there are two other adults around (I almost wrote "grown-ups" but clearly that is not the case). What if you applied for a part-time job and informed them that they're responsible for childcare while you're away? Maybe being fully responsible for a house full of children might help them reconsider the wisdom of adding to the chaos.

 

[Magdlyn]

Gosh, you sound so much like a friend of my gf's. With a toddler and another on the way in a month or two, your husband is off trying to impregnate another woman?

Excuse me, is he insane??? Is she?

And he's gaslighting you, telling you you're the crazy one, blaming your pregnancy hormones? You've got a fetus in you, you're still breastfeeding your toddler, and he's off shagging the 20-something bareback? Your sexual needs and need for emotional and physical support in your pregnancy are totally neglected.

This whole situation sucks. They are being totally selfish pricks. I'd so be kicking her ass out on the street at this point. No way would I allow those two to be fucking, much less getting pregnant, in my living room. And excuse me, but you are the one that needs a massage, not her!!

This is 2013 and yet your situation sounds positively medieval. You probably need therapy to build your confidence. Your self esteem sounds low to be allowing people of this caliber to undermine you and the young children's needs.

My girlfriend's friend? All her friends dumped her, tired of supporting and advising her, because she kept putting up with the shitty behavior of her husband, off shagging others while she grew babies in her uterus. He didn't use protection with the others either. Several of his gfs got pregnant, but had miscarriages or abortions. Finally his wife saw the light. She left him over and over again until it finally stuck. Now she's got a decent bf, full custody of her biological children, is going to school and running a business with her bf.

I hope you find your power too.

 

[purpleboots]

I packed a bag. The kids are at their mom's until Saturday. The baby and I are going to go stay at a friends' for a bit.

Last night didn't go well, obviously. It seems all they care about is having as much sex as possible, and only care about my feelings insofar as they prevent that.

Garth tried to suggest that maybe poly just wassn't my thing. What a jerk. He subsequently uttered the words, 'We just want to have sex once a day, and I don't give a shit how you feel,' which pretty well summarizes why I am so stressed out. If they can't have sex every day they get moody and hostile.

Helen just keeps asking me, 'Well, when are we allowed to have sex?' but when I said the word schedule, she laughed and said that was a ridiculous suggestion. I have gone out with the baby several times to give them time and space without us around. I know it's not every day-- there isn't enough time!

She told me last night she would have an abortion if it would save my family, but when I mentioned she was still in the window for ECP, she shut the conversation down completely. So she was just being dramatic, I guess. She has every intention of getting and staying pregnant, it seems.

I'm so astounded at how unreasonable they are being, while acting like I am overreacting. Yes, I'm crying. I'm melting down. Is that so crazy in this situation?

 

[FullofLove1052]

I am glad that you are away from there, at least for now. All that stress is not good for you or the children.

Now, on to Garth. He is an inconsiderate prick. You know how he feels now. I would strongly encourage you to seek child support and stay away. He has made it clear that he could not give a rat's ass how you feel. For him to leave his pregnant girlfriend to go have sex with the new sulking girlfriend because she needed his attention shows that his priorities are jacked. Let him be her problem. You deserve better. I hope he learns that having multiple children does not make him a good father. It just means he thinks with his penis and nothing else.

This just pissed my skin off. No, you are not overacting. You have two selfish, inconsiderate people who are only concerned with having sex and tuning everything out, including the needs of small children.

 

[purpleboots]

I just sent this text: "I don't want to leave. I don't want to break up. But you guys want to have sex every day, and that is too much for me to handle right now. I suppose we are at an impasse. I don't know what else to do."

To which he responded, "We can stop having sex. Just tell me. "

I don't get it. It just has to be me who vetoes, I guess. I'm still leaving for the night, but wtf?

 

[GalaGirl]

This is hard for you. I am so sorry it is getting beyond your limit of tolerance-- not just at it, but way beyond.

I am glad you packed the kids up and are going elsewhere. Choose self-respecting behavior. These people are just not interested in forming and living in a healthy polyship.

You could agree that it is true. You are not cut out for polyshipping like this with them -- all ugh and nasty and so disrespectful! Well, you respect yourself, then.

He subsequently uttered the words 'We just want to have sex once a day, and I don't give a shit how you feel.'

Helen just keeps asking me, 'Well, when are we allowed to have sex?' but when I said the word schedule, she laughed and said that was a ridiculous suggestion.

Both of them put you down. You are not ridiculous to want to have some of your own wants, needs, and limits respected in polyshipping. You are not ridiculous to want to spend time with Garth alone. He does not want to share his time with you. She does not want to share his time with you. You get what?

You cannot force him to spend time with you, but if this is unsatisfactory, you don't have to stay. Sigh.

She told me last night she would have an abortion if it would save my family, but when I mentioned she was still in the window for emergency contraception, she shut the conversation down completely.

You took her up on her offer, and came to find it was a false offer. Given her behavior, you can expect nothing there.

I'm astounded at how unreasonable they are being, while acting like I'm overreacting. Yes I'm crying. I'm melting down. Is that so crazy in this situation?

You are at max frustration. I see that. You are not crazy to have to express that extreme frustration through tears and upset. Better than holding it in!

I am glad you have packed up the kids and are removing yourself from such a volatile psychological environment. I hope being away helps you decide what the next steps could be for you. It is okay not to have the whole plan. Just take it one thing at a time. But in the cloud of frustration, make sure you are thinking clearly. Be careful.

Don't leave a device trail for them to snoop and end up at this thread and know what you're planning.
Don't leave a paper trail.
If you do not already have your own finances, but have them all in joint accounts with Garth, this could be a good time to hit the bank and remove half of everything and put it in an account under your own name only. It's half yours. Protect your investments there. You have kids to care for. If he decides to go for the gold in jerk-ness, you have at least that much secured. Setting up a new flat, groceries -- the kids and you need stuff.

Worry about future child support in the future. Get your TODAY support secured! I would not rely on the unreliable people to start meeting those needs of yours. should they arise. You think ahead for your own and the kids' needs.

Sometimes people get ugly and try to "punish" you through cutting off the finances, or worse. They do not perceive it as, "I was ungrateful for the gifts I was given and took her work for granted." They think instead in entitled ways like "I am not as comfortable as I used to be. The witch did this to me!" So, be careful.

I just sent this text: "I don't want to leave. I don't want to break up. But you guys want to have sex every day, and that is too much for me to handle right now. I suppose we are at an impasse. I don't know what else to do."

To which he responded "We can stop having sex. Just tell me."

I don't get it. It just has to be me who vetoes, I guess. I'm still leaving for the night, but wtf?

Do not respond at this time. Or if you do, respond with:

Last night, you said, verbatim, "We just want to have sex once a day. I don't give a shit how you feel." So I do not trust you with my feelings at this time. I do not trust you to stop if I said to stop at this time.
Do not contact me for 48 hours. I need a break from this crazy. Then we'll see what we see.

And then hold your own limit and do not contact him for 48 hours. See how they handle this emergency birth control question, and you leaving. If they whoop it up some more, just have a bunch of unprotected sex while you're gone, thinking only of themselves, there ya go. Your desire to talk things out fell on deaf ears. Their behavior continues to be about their pleasure and not about honoring their responsibilities in healthy, ethical ways.

Again, you could just agree with him. You are not cut out for polyshipping under these poor conditions. So you choose not to polyship with them in these conditions. These conditions are unhealthy!

Taking a time out, stepping away from the madness, gives you the opportunity to think of yourself and your children, and to gather yourself together for whatever comes next.

Maybe they'll change the conditions, start behaving like sane people, and the poly relationships will become healthy.
Maybe you'll give up on trying polyamory with Helen, and work on forming a healthier relationship with Garth.
Maybe you give up on the relationship with Garth.
Or maybe something else.

But choose self-respecting behavior even if it feels gross and hard. You are a person of value, worth, and dignity, even if others treat you poorly.

• YOU treat yourself like you value yourself.
• YOU treat yourself like you are worth something-- to yourself.
• YOU treat yourself well and regain your dignity.

GG

 

[purpleboots]

I am only taking my biological child, the toddler. I really don't want to leave the kids. But despite being in their life for the last 3 years, they aren't my children. They are his. (They are 5 and 7)

My finances are nonexistent. I haven't had a job since before I got pregnant the first time. My parents are close by and can probably help me out for a bit. I have to borrow money from my dad today just to put gas in the car.

Garth is now suggesting that they can just stop having sex altogether. When I asked him to just tone it down a bit, he said that won't work. But stopping completely will? What?

 

[GalaGirl]

I am glad you have family. Go to your parents with your toddler. Ask them for advice.

Are you saying this household is set up so you have to ask him for money? You have no actual access to the shared finances? It is all in his name? Take note. That is a tactic.

Note how when you actually leave (behavior), and he has to deal with the other children, and running the house over there, he starts wanting to negotiate. Why? Because of your needs and feelings, and a desire to honor them? Nope. Because now there's work not being done for him at home, like the childcare for his other kids. He has a desire to meet his own needs-- his need to be free of doing the work you normally provide! "What is in it for me?" motivates him more than "The needs of other people."

Again, do no contact for 48 hours. Then sit back and listen to the sing-song as it comes. I have doubts he will honor your request to leave you be for 2 days. Note more limits of yours not being respected if this happens.

If if helps you learn more about his tactic-hopping and mind games more clearly, look here: http://www.speakoutloud.net/domestic-violence/mens-tactics Click the little picture to get the full PDF list.

Print it out. Then watch Garth and see what he does. He's already gaslighting you. If one tactic doesn't work, he will probably hop to another. You could write the date next to each tactic change, if you note him doing these things to you.

This may be hard to hear, and I apologize, but I kind of expect increased volume on the "Sweetie-pie honey-bunch" stuff next, applied lavishly just to get you to return to less than stellar conditions.

Beware of empty talk and empty promises. Talk is cheap when it comes from someone who is not a person of their word. He has not kept his word to you before. You could focus on actions done/not done instead, to make sure he delivers.

Be cautious of empty words, up to and including an offer of breaking up with Helen, whom he's just maybe gotten pregnant. It won't be "I broke up with her," like an action already taken. It will be this offer-- "Come back! I'll even break up with her if you want me to!" Talk is cheap.

To which he responded, "We can stop having sex. Just tell me."
I don't get it. It just has to be me who vetoes, I guess. I'm still leaving for the night, but wtf?

It's very simple, hon. If it happens with some other offer, like, "Tell me if you want me to break up with her," and not just "Tell me if you want me to stop sex" stuff, it's on the extremes. When you want to discuss a middle ground, and he offers extremes to get you to go, "No, I don't want that!" it's for him to get his way. You don't want that means, to him, then I can have this, sipping the middle entirely, which is what you want to talk about, and what he does not want to talk about, because it could mean changes in his behavior he is not willing to make.

The other way that plays-- note how it is not him taking actions and responsibility, just offers of action that want to make you responsible for his choices and actions again. Then that gives him a handy scapegoat to blame later if he actually executes the offer and takes action:

"YOU made me do it!" to you.
"SHE made me do it!" to Helen.

If either of you has a cow, he's off the hook. He is blame-shifting away from his behavior done/not done and putting the spotlight elsewhere. He's not sounding like he is into responsibility or accountability in relationships. He is not sounding like he is into taking responsibility for his own actions and words.

And, even if he does break up with her, talk about being irresponsible and treating people like disposable things! She's just there to be a daily sex toy? She's got her share in helping to create the wackiness, but she doesn't deserve to be treated as less than a person. Nobody does. He cums in her, maybe promises whatever to get to do that, and then he ditches her once he's used her up? Ew.

Sigh.

Be careful. This whole thing smells of shenanigans.

I don't know if you want to try to work on this, or cut your losses and run at this point in time. Maybe you do not know yet either, but taking a time out to discern could be useful. So do that.

Watch for him not letting you have that time out in peace and quiet. If he can keep broadcasting static over your channel in various ways, it keeps your attention on him rather than on taking care of yourself.

You are a person of value, worth, and dignity, even if others treat you poorly. Treat yourself so. I cannot tell you that enough.

Galagirl

 

[purpleboots]

The other way that plays? Note how it is not him taking actions and responsibility. Just offers of action that want to make you responsible for his choices and actions. again. Then that gives him a handy scapegoat to blame later if he actually executes the offer and takes action.

I know. I can see what he's doing.

He isn't quite as textbook abusive as you are assuming, but I'm not saying that to minimize the way I am being treated right now, or how he treats me in general. Acting like I'm overreacting, and creating problems, when they've just done something as irresponsible as try to bring a baby into this shaky situation, is definite gaslighting.

Last night Helen jumped right on the bandwagon, telling me how tired she is of my 'constant' bad moods, and when I pointed out that she is also very moody, albeit in a different way, she just shifted the blame for that back on me. It's my fault she's moody, because she's tired of all the angst.

When two people are agreeing it makes me feel even crazier.

Anyway, I don't expect him to harass me while I'm gone.

 

[Livingmybestlife]

I would text and say this is about your total lack of care and respect for me. Try to stay gone longer.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am glad that you can see when he is/they are being over the top with their behaviors.

I'm not saying he's textbook abusive. I can only guess that he's employing some tactics. I could guess wrong. Only you can tell what degree this is going out to, and if it hits that level, and just how many tactics you encounter. You actually live there.

But some of his behaviors are definitely less than polite and respectful. Ditto her. For sure, it is being all kinds of FRESH!

If it hits abusive levels -- be careful. Get out, but use every means to stay safe.

As you discern how you want to be treated in polyship, and in general how you want to proceed through this situation, I hope you taking a time out brings you some quiet and a break from the wacky. You do not deserve poor treatment.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

This situation is only going to get worse and worse. Neither one of them has one ounce of respect for you or your feelings. If she gets pregnant and you're still around, it's going to be a disaster.

You can make it on your own. I know it won't be easy, but at least you'll know what to expect. Right now, it's all up in the air.

He's got a track record. The mother of the other two children can probably tell you all kinds of stories. If Helen is so eager to parent his children, let her take over baby-sitting responsibilities for the 5 and 7 yr olds. Let them see how much fun it is to support a bunch of kids on one income. Let him see that her moodiness has nothing to do with you, because it will continue when you're not around.

They're obviously both full of shit. You don't go from wanting to have sex every day, whether or not you approve, to being willing to cut themselves off completely. They're trying to manipulate you. He wants a live-in nanny for his kids and she wants a housekeeper. If they really cared about your feelings even a little bit, they wouldn't have put you in this position in the first place.