LizziE Learning as She Goes

Right now, between rent and the money I have to pay for physical therapy, emotional therapy, medication, and doctor's visits, there truly is absolutely no way I could swing paying another rent. I am having Issi spend the night Friday (Jon and Lora are going out that night), and I am spending the night at Issi's on Sunday night. Tonight I'm crashing with my friend Jo.

So, I showed the email that I wrote to Jon on Monday. His immediate response was that Lora was going to be really shocked and unhappy, because he'd told her that I wanted to see if we could work out a way to all live together somehow.

I *did* say that. So did Jon. As in, when we were talking Saturday and scrabbling for something, anything that wasn't "we must move to separate homes immediately".

So I said to him, ok. Yes. I did say that. Unfortunately, because he had to work Sunday, we couldn't really do much talking. But I (and everybody else, of course) kept thinking all day Sunday, and that is what my thoughts concluded - that Lora and I can't possibly keep living together right now.

I said to him, I can break this up a bit, into smaller pieces. If it's helpful to start. Because here's the thing, no matter what happens with our living situation, I cannot, for the foreseeable future, have an emotional relationship with Lora. That is a full stop, no compromises, hard limit. It's actually beyond a hard limit - it's emotionally impossible right now. What that means, especially for the next week, as we're not going to stop all living together right this second, is that I'll generally keep to myself at home. I can have a civil conversation about if we need toilet paper or have I seen the scissors. But I cannot have conversations about my day and my life. I do not want to her anything about her day or her life. Ideally, I don't want to see her, or really be aware of her existence, other than remotely.

Which is why...you know...not living together seems like the only possibly long-term solution right now.

But, I said I'd try to think of a way for us to live together. So, I started doing that (more on that below)

Meanwhile, he started a "let's brainstorm ideas to figure out how we can all live together" email. Which Lora had a lot of say on.

The gist was that therapy was stirring up a lot of awful feelings for her, and that her and Jon drinking alone as long as they feel antagonistic towards each other is a bad idea, so they're not going to do it (Smart-Ass Liz says to herself "So, Lora's never going to drink around Jon again. Because just being around Jon when he's trying to do his own thing and not be controlled by her feels antagonistic to her").

She repeatedly emphasized that the fight was so incredibly bad because she and Jon were both drunk - unlike normal, when she's the only person who is drunk.

See, this is funny (not ha ha funny, just sad funny) to me, because drunk as Jon was, he didn't call her any names, he didn't curse her out, he didn't tell her that she ruined their date like she ruins everything (that was another thing she screamed at him). All he kept saying was that he was tired of her emotionally blackmailing him.

Also, I'm just sort of amazed that admitting that fights happen when you're drunk wouldn't be the focus of something like...stopping drinking entirely? Because maybe you either have a substance abuse problem OR an anger management problem that alcohol brings out. Or both? I mean, it could be both.

But I digress...

Most of Lora's email was about how terrible things were for her. She wanted to know if there was a way we could afford to put her up in a hotel for a night or two after each therapy session, because she feels stifled and oppressed in our apartment and needs some time to herself after those sessions. I guess going in her bedroom and shutting the door and saying "hey, could you both completely leave me alone unless say, the apartment catches on fire?" isn't enough? Actual separate living space must be procured?

Occasionally she mentioned how the fighting was just really "unfair" to all of us, especially me, as a bystander.

You know, if I were an asshole, I'd be really tempted to be like "hey Jon, I want to try an experiment. I'm going to say some things to you. But I'm actually going to mean the opposite of what I mean, so in your head, treat it like I said the opposite". And then I'd wait 'til Lora was with us, not explain the rules to her, and start telling Jon that he is the most horrible, fucked up, full of shit, incompetent, piece of asshattery of a human that I've ever known. And that I can't stand him. And that I want nothing to do with him.

Then I'd turn to Lora and say "Oh, sorry, that was really unfair to you. Do you want to go so that Jon and I can finish this talk in private?"

Because honestly, I think if she heard someone else saying the things that she says to Jon, she'd go apeshit at them.

Unfair. Fucking hell.

Anyways...I spent most of yesterday trying to figure out ways we could live together. And something deep inside me kept saying NOPE. Every time I had an idea: NOPE.

And then something dawned on me. The whole reason I'm now trying to figure out a way for us to live together is because Jon told Lora I would, and she's going to be *upset* if that isn't true. According to Jon, it would really hurt her. Really? I mean, really? I'm sure it would.

I'm also sure that listening to Jon be verbally and emotionally abused for months has really hurt me. It's been horrible. I'm kind of a nervous wreck. Living with her, and knowing that whenever she's home, a fight could start, OR, she could just have some kind of meltdown and then Jon has to drop everything to go comfort her...it's been horrible.

There have been times when I've been crying about something, and Jon and I were talking, and then suddenly (through two closed doors) we've heard insanely loud sobbing from Lora. This has happened several times when she tried to interrupt us, and Jon was like "this isn't a good time, Liz is having a difficulty, and we need to go over it". And like, ten minutes later, Lora is like, sobbing at the top of her lungs and told Jon that she was trying to interrupt him because she was having a crisis. Twice, said crisis was about not having a job. Once, it was about (I'm not kidding) how she's aging (at 26) and the new product she bought isn't helping her skin texture and she's going to get old and ugly and Jon isn't going to love her anymore. Several times, it was just that she was sooooooo sad she couldn't help but sob.

Anyways, I digress. Point being, I had an "aha" moment. I've been so fucking brainwashed by Lora for the past year, that I'm buying her bullshit too. Because when I said to my partner "I can't live with your other partner anymore, because she verbally abuses you and hearing it is killing my soul" and he said "well, she's going to be really upset to hear that, and I said we were going to work it out, so it's just going to be too deeply upsetting and hard for her to find out that we can't find a way to live together. we need to figure something else out" my response was "oh, ok, well, let me see what I can figure out". when it should have been "are you fucking kidding me? I'm telling you that listening to you be abused is causing me serious emotional harm. And you're worried because your ABUSER is going to be UNHAPPY if we don't figure out a way to keep living together? Are you fucking nuts?"

No, for the record, I don't think he's nuts. I think he's been so abused for so long that he literally cannot think of any terms beyond how things will make Lora feel.

I have a shitton of work this week, so I responded to the emails about how we can all live together by just saying 1) I have a shitton of work this week, and I need to focus on that instead and 2) It's a no-go on getting Lora a hotel room after couples therapy so she can process her feelings.

My current plan: tonight, I'm spending the night at Jo's, with my friends, having fun.

Tomorrow night, Jon and I are going out with half a dozen friends for a birthday thing.

Thursday, when I get out early for the 4th (but Lora doesn't), I'm going to have another talk with Jon. The subject of this talk will be that no, we cannot continue to live together. I can't risk staying in a situation where I'm going to have to watch him be abused. I've written him a letter, which I want to read to him. The current working version of it will be in the next post.
 
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I need to tell you something else that is going on in my head. It's what my gut tells me, and it is causing an enormously painful moral and ethical dissonance inside me.

I am afraid that part of why us not living together anymore is so upsetting to you is because you know, deep down, that Lora isn't going to get better, and if I wasn't there to provide some kind of buffer and immediate support, you wouldn't be able to handle staying in a relationship with her.

When you talk about how you've become introverted and afraid, my gut tells me it's because you've been being abused for a really long time, and you're slowly retreating into yourself as a coping mechanism, as a result.

When I say that Lora abuses you, I need you to understand that I am not putting her into a cookie-cutter template of a human, where all humanity is stripped away, and she is simply An Abuser. She is a person who has also been abused. She loves you. She's funny. She's smart. She's passionate. She's trying. She's a complicated spectrum of a human being. But she is also someone who abuses you, and has been abusing you for years. I think you're getting to the point where your psyche won't be able to handle it much longer. I worry that if I left, you wouldn't be able to handle it any more.

If I stay, I may be enabling you to stay and enabling her to abuse you. You may just keep wearing down, as you have been wearing down. Into being more fearful, more self-contained. More exhausted. Less alive. Watching the way you flinch when things that may upset Lora happen (It happens fairly regularly. You have this little jerk that you do sometimes. It's heart breaking to watch). Watching these things happen to you is doing the same to me.

Is it morally wrong for me to stay, if I believe that is what's happening?

If I leave, will that break us?

I don't know what the right thing is to do. I don't know what the ethical thing to do is. I don't know if telling you this is ethical. I don't know what to do when my gut is screaming to me that this is NOT going to get better. Being afraid of making the wrong decision is tearing me apart. And not sharing this with you has been tearing me apart, even as I worry that writing this to you is going to tear you and me apart.

Writing all that, I realized something. If I truly believe Lora is abusing you (which I do) and I truly believe that it is slowly wearing you away and seriously harming you (which I do), then I am ethically bound to tell you so. Even if it damages our relationship. Because the highest thing that I should be striving towards is helping those people who I love stay safe. I cannot force you to leave your relationship. You have to make your own decision to stay or go. I can offer you support if you choose to go. But ethically, I cannot continue to stay silent and not address the repeated emotional and verbal abuse that I have personally overheard.

Ethically, I also cannot continue to live in a situation where someone is being abused, for fear of my staying being construed as tacit acceptance, or it potentially helping to enable the abuse.

I realize that this is a reverse from what I said earlier. I also realize that it will upset Lora. And that, right there, that is kind of the crux of things. I'm telling you, I have told you repeatedly that living in this situation and hearing you be verbally and emotionally abused is damaging to you and to me. I have told you how deeply disturbing it is. It is HARMING ME. But your concern, upon hearing that I couldn't handle watching you be abused anymore because it is damaging me was to be worried that Lora was going to be surprised and upset that I wasn't trying to figure out a way for us all to live together.

Jon, this is beyond bad. If I wasn't certain with every atom in me of your love for me, I would think that you didn't care about me at all. You are putting the upset feelings of the abuser who you love above the feelings of another person who you love, who is being terrorized and abused herself, by having to hear you be abused, and watch you disappear a little bit more every day.

Being a part of this is killing me. I believe it's killing you too.

I have to get out. Even if you don't, and I have to keep watching you die by slow degrees, I need to get out.

If you are going to stay with Lora, because you truly believe that she is going to get better, then I deeply and sincerely hope that you are right, for both your sakes.

But I cannot apologize for walking away myself.

I just realized that I've been more concerned with Lora getting upset, more afraid of her anger, of her taking things out on you, of her feelings getting hurt than taking care of you or advocating for me. I can't do that anymore.

Some of it is the positions that we're in. I know you love her. I wanted to give her every chance. And I did. I've been silent while she has said and done things to you that I would NEVER condone in a friend. If I judged her behavior by the same criteria that I judge the people I allow to get close to me (including you), I would have stopping being her friend a very long time ago.

But I know how very much you love her, and because of that, I overlooked so many troubling behaviors of hers. I excused so many things that I'd find inexcusable in any other person. Things that I would find inexcusable in YOU, if YOU did them to me, I excused in her. For you.

That is madness. It's a double standard that has brought me misery, and despair, and depression.

I love you so much. But I cannot do this any longer.

******

And then I guess we'll see what happens when he reads that. This may be the one, and only, time that I ask him to break up with her. I don't want to. It feels wrong to do. But in a way, not at least asking also feels wrong. There is so incredibly much wrong here. Maybe I don't actually need to ask him to break up with her. Maybe I just need to ask him to look me in the eye, and tell me that staying with her is worth all the emotional harm that has come to him and come to me. Maybe I just need to hear him say it, that he is aware of how badly he's hurting himself, and how badly I've been hurt, and he still wants to pursue this anyway. He still thinks it's worth it.

At least then, I'll know where things stand.

And then we can start making plans for them to find a separate apartment nearby, and we can go back to what we did before, where he spends half his time living with me, and half his time living with her.
 
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Good letter.

Re:
"And then we can start making plans for them to find a separate apartment nearby, and we can go back to what we did before, where he spends half his time living with me, and half his time living with her."
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Good plan.
 
Jon emailed me earlier to let me know that Lora's work gave her off Sunday too. So maybe he and I could switch our date night back to Friday, and the three of us could go see the fireworks together Saturday?

Because yes, when my partner says to me "I cannot live with your other partner anymore, because I can't handle her emotional abusing you. Also, I cannot have any kind of emotional relationship with her, because of how badly she abuses you" the answer is to suggest that we all go see the fireworks together.

This is why I think I'm insane sometimes. Because something in this situation is insane, and if they're both acting normal, then maybe it's me.
 
I think Jon is trying to bury his head in the sand, and pretend like nothing's wrong, and he wants you to help him.
 
kdt26417 said:
I think Jon is trying to bury his head in the sand, and pretend like nothing's wrong, and he wants you to help him.
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ITA. I think your best bet, Lizzie, is to just keep being firm that no, you do not want a relationship with Lora period. That you intend to split your homes as soon as feasible & that you do not wish to be around her because you do not wish to witness her emotionally and verbally abuse him. It's traumatizing and injurious to you. No discussion. Just be firm, be concise, and be consistent. It'll sink in eventually.

You're doing great, Lizzie! (even if it doesn't feel like it.)
 
Thank you both so much.

I feel physically ill from this, and scared, and I keep thinking "I don't have to do this. I don't have to be the person who ruins everything. Maybe I should just drop the whole thing"

I would guess Jon probably feels this way even more often than I do.

I am so grateful that I have a therapy appointment tomorrow, and that I can talk to my therapist about what I'm going to do. Not to say that the validation I'm getting here isn't important. It's just...she knows even more details and is a therapist, so she can put the therapists seal of approval on it or something.
 
LizziE said:
I feel physically ill from this, and scared, and I keep thinking "I don't have to do this. I don't have to be the person who ruins everything. Maybe I should just drop the whole thing"
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You keep being coerced (as does Jon) into maintaining the status quo. If everyone walks on eggshells, things are fine. If you step out of line, she erupts and it's your fault for stepping out of line.

Except, it's not. You're being held hostage to Lora's emotions. Every interaction, every date, every motion, every action - it's all able to be turned upside down at Lora's whim.

You're doing the right thing. Definitely get that validation from your therapist, but here's a little more from this end too.
 
Re (from LizziE):
"I would guess Jon probably feels this way even more often than I do."
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It's fine to feel compassionate towards Jon, but you still don't have to go along with his ideas. Jon is suggesting things that are bad for Jon. And for you. And even for Lora.

I hope your therapy appointment goes well.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
LizziE said:
I feel physically ill from this, and scared, and I keep thinking "I don't have to do this. I don't have to be the person who ruins everything. Maybe I should just drop the whole thing"
Click to expand...

LizziE, I went through something similar (though far less extreme, and not live-in) this past winter. The dynamic in my V had gotten extremely unhealthy overall, with my partner being so willing to say/do anything to keep his more jealous, more manipulative partner happy that he had actually ditched me on Christmas (after convincing me not to fly home to see family) to placate her. And her reaction to hearing that I was hurt by that was to delight in my pain.

I would try to open a dialogue with her so that she could see my humanity and not see me as a mere competitor over whom victories should be won, and she'd throw a fit about it to him and refuse to ever talk to me directly.

I struggled for a long time with not wanting to be the bad guy, the "ruiner" of this V that he so enjoyed being in. I struggled to the point where I was compromising my own boundaries and staying in the situation just because I love him so much and I knew it would hurt him savagely if I left. I knew he loved us both, and I didn't want to say "her or me." But, in the end, I had to tell him that I would have to leave FOR ME, to find a better life FOR ME, if he maintained his toxic relationship with her that he also let affect me.

It was the right decision, and he decided to end things with her. But even if he had chosen to stay with her, and I had been the one to walk away, I know that that would have been the right thing: to act with integrity and to protect myself first, because it was stressing me out so much to just keep to the status quo for the sake of not rocking the boat.

You have to be true to yourself. Even if it is panic-making and terrifying. I have come to believe that it is the only path to peace.
 
Reverie said:
I would try to open a dialogue with her so that she could see my humanity and not see me as a mere competitor over whom victories should be won, and she'd throw a fit about it to him and refuse to ever talk to me directly.
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The thing is, I did do that. I did that months ago. I have spent MONTHS excusing her behavior because I wanted to have compassion for her (and genuinely did). I wanted her to get better. I wanted to figure out what level of support I could offer her. I talked to her about my feelings. I was vulnerable with her.

And what she did in return was take and take and take and take and ask for more, or just assuming she could take more and things got worse and worse and worse until we're in the place we are now.

Last night didn't go great. I went OK. I think both the birthday guys had fun. But they were both disturbed when I started taking anti-anxiety medication as we were getting ready to leave, because I literally was unable to go home, unless I medicated myself. When I thought about that earlier in the day (going home) I straight up became hysterical. I locked myself in the bathroom and whimpered "please don't make me go back there. please don't make me go back there" over and over until I convinced myself that I wouldn't be going home for HOURS, and that I would take my pills, this one time, I'd take as many as needed to get through this night.

Jon and I did some talking, because he could see how upset I was all night. Any time we were alone, I couldn't keep the mask of "having a great time" up. And he mostly sat there and listened with this sort of blank look on his face. I don't know what that means.

I do know that Lora woke Jon up early again today, to fight with him (he and I had been sleeping together, so she came into the room, to get him up and into the other bedroom, so they could fight), like she's done nearly every other day since Friday.

So I left without seeing him or kissing him goodbye. In the two+ years we've been dating there have been 2 times when I didn't kiss him goodbye before work, if we were in the same home. The first was when I got an emergency call from work, and pretty much had to roll out of bed and go immediately.

My heart is breaking. I just want to get this over with today. Do work, see therapist, read him my letter, and leave.
 
Jon 10:12 AM: You went to work?

Liz 10:13 AM: I had to. and you were woken up early to talk/fight again, like nearly every day since last Friday

Jon 10:50 AM: I'm going to come by and pick up green stuff (our code for pot, which I buy for us, and Lora uses most of. It also helps me with my chronic pain)

Liz 10:55 AM: That's all you have to say to me? That's it? Gotta go help Lora get her needs taken care of. Gotta get up whenever Lora demands you get up to talk.

Jon 11:05 AM: I broke up with Lora

Liz 11:06 AM: What?

Jon 11:06 AM: I broke up with Lora

Liz 11:07 AM: I don't know what to say
 
LizziE said:
The thing is, I did do that. I did that months ago. I have spent MONTHS excusing her behavior because I wanted to have compassion for her (and genuinely did). I wanted her to get better. I wanted to figure out what level of support I could offer her. I talked to her about my feelings. I was vulnerable with her.

And what she did in return was take and take and take and take and ask for more, or just assuming she could take more and things got worse and worse and worse until we're in the place we are now.
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Sorry, I think I phrased what I said ambiguously. I was talking about myself, as in "when I would do this, she would do that," not offering any particular advice for your course of action—only support. I have been following your story and, believe me, I see that you've done everything that you possibly can and still remain sane. HUGS!

ETA: Just saw last post. I hope that this sticks!
 
He just picked up the green stuff.

We had a stilted talk. I asked if this was really, for sure, absolutely happening. He said yes. I asked again. He looked me in the eyes and very firmly said yes.

Because I am a moron, I said the thing that was actually the first thing that pooped into my head when I first read those words "I just want you to know, that if she sticks with therapy, and gets better, and wants to try again in a year or two, that is not off the table."

He broke down a little at that, and said it was too soon to think about that. And I apologized, and felt horrible, but...I don't know what's wrong with me.

I asked him why. Which is kind of a funny question. I mean, there's so many whys. And he stared at me and said, do you remember anything about our conversation last night? And I said yes. And he said, it was what you said in the end.

What I said was "Can you look me in the eyes, and tell me that, in the end, this is going to be worth all the pain, and misery, and abuse that we've both gone through. Can you look at me and tell me that?"

He stared at me. And said he needed to go for a walk. But then changed his mind. And went to sleep. But that was it.

I still don't quite believe it. I don't think I'll be able to, until she and her possessions are gone.

I am so unbelievably grateful that I have therapy today.

I'm still in shock. I still don't believe it. I'm afraid to hope. But seeing him just now. I don't think he'd lie about this. He knows the pain I was in. I think he wouldn't tell me it's definite unless it was definite.

Thank you so much, those of you who have been supportive and pushed me to do the right thing for myself. Thank you so much. From the bottom of my heart, with all my soul, thank you.
 
Oh, Lizzie, I so hope this sticks! Jon will know he did the right thing when Lora's gone and he has a calm, peaceful home. When my ex moved out, the difference was immediate. No tension, no fear, no walking on egg shells. When my teens stopped hiding in their bedrooms, I knew I'd made the right choice. I even noticed a difference in my pets' behavior.
 
Me too. The hardest thing right now is NOT texting him "you're still broken up, right?" Seriously might give my phone to my coworker (who knows what's going on) and say "Can you hold this for me, so I don't do something stupid?"
 
Here's hoping it sticks.
 
Oh Liz, I am glad to hear that he made that choice. I hope he and Lora can get through the break-up without too much pain and that you take care of yourself during the process. Best wishes to you! <3
 
Yes, please take care of yourself, keep seeking a calm haven away from the tension. From what you have said I suspect she is going to try to jerk him around emotionally like a terrier with a rabbit and you will do neither yourself nor Jon much good if you let her drag you back into the fray. If you can continue to find your own way to mental and emotional balance you will be in a better place to either help Jon or make your own way if he cannot extricate himself. (I have a small hope, based on a similar situation, that she will go off in a huff).

Leetah
 
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Thank you all, so much.

"I hope it sticks" is the most popular (by far) comment that I've gotten, and I hope it sticks too. I think it's more and more likely that it will with each day, especially since he finally opened up a bit to two people (his dad, and an ex who remains a very good friend) about the abuse aspect of it, which I hope would also have the consequence of (if he was consdering getting back with her) two people (besides me) asking "Why are you going back to an abusive relationship?", which might make a difference.

This weekend was exhausting, but also necessary (in terms of it being exhausting).

One thing I learned this morning was that Lora is emailing him every day to tell him how sad and lonely she is, and how hard it is for her, and either how much easier it would be for her if he just took her back OR is making it clear that it would be so much better for her, but not saying it directly (the way Jon worded it, I couldn't tell if she was overtly pushing for a reconciliation or just loading on the guilt).

I asked if he wanted my thoughts about that and he said "I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. Yes". So I tentatively proceeded to point out that he wasn't the best person for her to be venting that pain too. He agreed and said "but she doesn't really have anybody else". I pointed out 1) not his responsibility and 2) she has her mom, her aunt, and at least two online friends that she appears to talk to a lot (one of them was in our area a few weeks ago, and Lora met up with her to hang out in person). So she does have some people.

(one interesting side note: when I commented about Lora having two other people, at first he thought that one of the ones I was talking about was her coworker, who she was going out with a lot a few weeks ago. And he said "I don't know how much Lora has Coworker. I think they had a falling out or something" and I thought "of course they did. because Lora probably eventually did something shitty or controlling or generally not socially acceptable, and Coworker backed away")

The other thing I pointed out gently is that he might need to tell her at some point that their communication needs to be centered on getting her things, and ONLY getting her things. He said he knew. I'm hoping that Marian (Jon's ex who he opened up to, and has been a close friend since they both got closure after their (mostly) mutual break-up six years ago. She's also the person he has had the longest relationship with, around five years) will also be gently pointing things like that out.

The thing that gives me the most hope for this break up sticking is that he seems 100% convinced that Lora will continue to be abusive and controlling to him if they were together. And when he said something about how he just couldn't handle being in a relationship anymore where, when he didn't want to do something she wanted, it always turned into Lora acting like now the entire day is terrible and ruined and that he's a horrible boyfriend who obviously doesn't care for her, he got really choked up.

I think, if nothing else, as long as he's convince she'll continue to treat him that way (and she will), he really isn't going to be able to get back together with her, no matter what promises she tries to make.

That said, I realized this morning that I need to make it clear to Jon that, even if he did get back together with Lora, she is not moving back in with us under any circumstance. This is necessary for my mental health, and should be obvious, given that I was saying we couldn't live together anymore, just before the break up.

But I love spelling things out and making them crystal clear, so I think I'm going to write him something to give him tonight when he gets home from work that basically says that, and that even if they reconciled on July 31st (She has a sublet until July 31st), she's still going to need to get a new sublet for August, while they decide what they're going to do about her living situation. I assume the options would be either if they get another place together OR if she lives in a different place, a new apartment with roommates, that she's subletting, and he stays with her some nights there, and stays some nights here with me.

Whatever the options are, one of them is NOT her coming back and staying in the apartment I live in. Not under any circumstances. I cannot handle that.
 
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