Looking for advice on my situation

[redracoon]

Hi all,
I'm new here, I come to you because I'm in a tricky situation and would like some advice from this community.

TLDR: My wife, 29f, and I, 30m, have been married for 6 years and together for 11. We had a 6-month open relationship before we got married (at my request) and been monogamous since. She just asked me if I'd be okay with her dating her sister's boyfriend's brother. In general I think I'd be okay with her having a boyfriend, but I'm having a hard time with this guy in particular because he seems a bit unstable and he'll be around even if things end poorly. Also, this whole thing has been a bit too obvious from the start. People have already started making comments and getting involved and I'm already a bit embarrassed by the whole thing. Any advice on how to handle this?

More context:
- My wife has been nothing but loyal, so far. She's made the point that this would change nothing about her relationship with me. It would take too long to prove here, but for the purpose of this conversation, please assume this is true. She is abnormally loyal and has proven her unconditional love for me for 11 years. Even when we had an open relationship and I encouraged her to date, she refused and said she wasn't interested, that she had chosen me. Right now, I have no concerns about my marriage, and neither does she.
- The reasons she is attracted to this guy are (from her mouth): He is a musician, as is she. They've been spending a lot of time recording music together. This was how the attraction started. He is from her town (I am a foreigner) and she feels comforted by the familiarity of his personality and humor. He is a bit of a mess; I am a software engineer and I'm pretty high functioning. She says this disqualifies him as a long term partner but is somehow endearing or interesting.
- She has explicitly not asked to have sex or even kiss. She says she just wants permission to talk about her feelings with him and maybe be romantic. I'm afraid that this is a slippery slope. I'm also concerned he will not be satisfied with this and it will very quickly escalate.
- We are basically fully transparent with each other. She knows everything written here and much more. We've talk about this situation for 10+ cumulative hours at this point.

Her Pitch: "I love you unconditionally in a way that is not comparable to what I feel for this other guy. I'm just attracted to a part of him and would like to do this. But if you don't want me to, I won't. I'm just frustrated because the way I see it the only reasons for me not to are 1. societal pressure/norms, and 2. your insecurity, which is not grounded in reality. These are not really valid reasons."

PROS: For many years now, I've believed monogamy is a societal construct, together with sexual jealousy and most of the general feelings of possessiveness for one's partner. My wife agrees. Our main reason to be monogamous is that open relationships or polyamory seemed too complicated and time consuming, our relationship was fine the way it was, and we could focus on other things, like our careers. This all makes me want to tell her to go for it. She also stuck with me during my period of uncertainty before we got married, so I feel like I owe her, in a sense. Finally, I love her and want her to be happy and enjoy herself, if possible.

CONS: I have a bad feeling about this. His family and her family see each other basically every week. As mentioned above, he's kind of a mess and has not had a relationship in a while. I'm afraid he's gonna become very attached to my wife and start causing problems that will spill over everywhere, affecting our families and my sister-in-law's new relationship. My wife assures me she can handle him and the situation, but there is some evidence to the contrary already. I also feel jealous of this guy and I'm somewhat embarrassed for people to find out that my wife likes him and would be even more if they had a blown-out relationship. Again, she's promised to keep it under wraps, but I think that is very unlikely.

Should I go with logic and what I believe in theory. or my emotions and what my gut tells me?

Thanks for reading this massive post and for any advice you might give me.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

There's something in poly people call a "messy list". She should look into it.

 

[redracoon]

There's something in poly people call a "messy list". She should look into it.

Thanks! Great concept. He would definitely be in my "messy list".

Her counter is that she doesn't want to be with other people really, just this guy that happens to be in her life anyway. She doesn't even want to "date" him. Simply be romantic and maybe fool around whenever they are occasionally together.

I realize I'm getting very nuanced here. Anyway, appreciate the link!

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle.

I think you could thank her for being honest, then be honest back. Tell her you aren't opposed to her having a BF, having an open or poly relationship again. But this guy sounds like a hot mess, and you are not excited about her dating him, since he's a family friend. If things go haywire, there's no clear exit plan. He is her sister's BF's brother so he's gonna be around at the family things, as usual. His family and her family see each other basically every week.

I know she doesn't want to call it "dating," but don't split hairs.

She says this disqualifies him as a long term partner, but is somehow endearing or interesting.

If the dude is a mess and unstable, maybe has mental health issues, that all sounds kinda user-y. Taking up with him to get her jollies and then discarding him later sounds MEAN.

If she's hellbent on going there, you could say you aren't gonna stop her, but you don't want to hear about it and you won't help her clean up any mess afterwards. You aren't going to attend family functions if he's around, or at best, you'll just say a basic hello and then go mingle with other people. You will not interact with him. You expect her not to push him on you.

And depending on how strongly you feel about it all, you might prefer to step waaaaay back and have a trial separation while she gets this out of her system. And stand your ground on that. If he's THAT messy and unstable, and you have the sense to get out of the splash zone? Get out then. You don't have to keep her company if she's hellbent on chasing weird.

Her Pitch: "I love you unconditionally in a way that is not comparable to what I feel for this other guy. I'm just attracted to a part of him and would like to do this but if you don't want me to I won't.

Then say NO, you'd prefer she skip this one. Presumably she doesn't offer to do things she's not actually willing to do.

I'm just frustrated because the way I see it the only reason for me not to are 1. societal pressure / norms 2. your insecurity, which is not grounded in reality. These are not really valid reasons."

She can feel however she feels. She can also go right ahead and date him, if she doesn't think those are valid reasons. She just doesn't get to date YOU too, like you are just along for the ride and have no voice.

Your consent to participate in things or not belongs to YOU. So if you don't want to date her at the same time she's dating him, you don't have to. Step back. Trial separation.

She doesn't even want to "date" him. Simply be romantic and maybe fool around whenever they are occasionally together.

Some people enjoy "fuzzy boundaries" things with people. I do not. I certainly would not with a guy who is messy and unstable. She's wanting to play with fire, IMO.

I'm also concerned he will not be satisfied with this and very quickly escalate.

What does that mean? You think he won't leave it "casual" and "non-dating" and will want a full-on dating relationship? Or do you think that's what she's doing, selling it like it will be "casual," when really SHE wants a full-on dating relationship, and is just telling you whatever to get her foot in the door?

Do you think he's so unstable he would assault her? Get all creepy stalker? Something else?

To me, some things are just not worth pursuing. But I also know some people need to learn things the hard way.

She is free to choose. She is not free from the consequences of her choices. If this goes haywire, good luck to her repairing her relationships with you, her sister, the sister's BF, and the two families then.

You can say no, step back, and save yourself if you need to. You are not obligated to consent to this. That's all I have to say.

Galagirl

 

[redracoon]

I think you could thank her for being honest.

That is the first thing I did and I continue to do this! Our transparency and honesty with each other is paramount.

You think he won't leave it "casual" and "non-dating" and will want a full on dating relationship?

Exactly! I think he's going to want as much as he can get and do what he can to get that.

Say no, step back, and save yourself if you need to is all I can say.

Thank you for the advise. I think this is what I'll do, it's what I was leaning towards. Having the framework of a "messy list" also helped me a lot to articulate why in a simple but reasonable fashion.

---

Reading some more posts on this forum I also now realize the following:

1. I have it easy!! I'm lucky my wife was honest enough to bring it up before things escalated.
2. I'm being greedy with my approach. Trying to both figure out a way for my wife to get what she wants (since she deserves it!) but in a way that doesn't jeopardize our future relationship with him and his family. I'm realizing these might be mutually exclusive and we just need to cut our loses.
3. Still feel a bit guilty that cutting those loses falls "in my favour" hearing your opinion has helped me feel more okay with that.

Thank you!!

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad it helped you some.

I don't know where you are coming from with this "greedy" stuff. Being concerned about your own wellbeing and how things might affect you is not selfish. It is necessary. Even in a plane crash....You have to put on your own oxygen mask before you can help other people. If you go around helping other people first, and you pass out from lack of air because you neglected to attend to your own self first, how's that useful? How is that treating yourself well? And you can't help as many people that way, anyway.

Do you tend toward "people-pleaser" stuff, putting others first so much that you end up doing self neglect?

Galagirl

 

[redracoon]

"people pleaser"

Yep! That's me

Greedy is probably the wrong word. I just meant that it sounds like in this case we both can't get what we want and I need to be more okay with that.

 

[Inaniel]

I am fairly tolerant of messy situations and perceived messy situations in general so I have no opinion about the situation itself.

But to say your concerns are not "grounded in reality"... Did your wife actually say that to you? Because at best it shows severe short sightedness, and at worse she is gaslighting you.

Your concerns ARE valid and grounded in reality.

 

[redracoon]

Did your wife actually say that to you?

Sorry, this was a bad paraphrase.

What she meant was I have nothing to be insecure about, she has chosen me as her life partner, and has always proven that in her actions and words. She meant my insecurity is not grounded in reality.

One of the takeaways from this whole experience is that I need to work more on my self-esteem in therapy, because part of my initial negative emotions towards this situation came from deep insecurities in my value.

I am fairly tolerant of messy situations

Could you elaborate a bit more? Do you have advice on how to make decisions about potentially messy situations? My main fear is that the situation will end poorly and we'll be stuck with this guy in our lives forever. So it's like, even if the chance of this happening is low, the outcome would be so negative that it's not worth the risk.

 

[GalaGirl]

What she meant was I have nothing to be insecure about, she has chosen me as her life partner, and has always proven that in her actions and words. She meant my insecurity is not grounded in reality.

You are worried about Dude getting weird and bringing problems. If he's messy and unstable, I'd say that's a reasonable concern.

Right now, if she does not date him, he's your partner's sister's BF's brother, 4 degrees out from you, that you maybe see at mixed family gatherings, if you even go to those. If he makes a mess over there, it will largely fall on his family first.

If she starts dating him and bringing him around, he would be your wife's BF, 2 degrees out from you, and coming around to your home. If he makes a mess there, it will be you and wife directly dealing with it, affected by it. It's okay for you not to love this idea.

Her dismissing your concerns like that, not being clear about how she will maintain a separate, parallel poly V-- I doubt it inspires any confidence in her skills and ability to "handle things," since she's acting blind to this concern and/or just waving it away, ignoring you.

One of the takeaways from this whole experience is that I need to work more on my self-esteem in therapy, because part of my initial negative emotions towards this situation came from deep insecurities in my value.

If that is true, work on yourself.

If it's that she's behaving poorly, and when you call her on it, flipping it around on you and dinging you where you are vulnerable, so you go off on some side quest wondering if it is YOUR problem after all, taking the spotlight off of HER behaviors-- that's weird gaslighting stuff. You may need to put your foot down about that.

If it is both things, deal with both accordingly.

My main fear is that the situation will end poorly and we'll be stuck with this guy in our lives forever.

"Forever" is kinda dramatic. You could walk away. You would not be dating him, she would be. And she said she would not pursue this if you didn't want her to. So SAY THAT. You don't want her to. There. Done.

If she insists on dating a guy who creates messes and poor situations, if she goes there anyway and won't end it with him, you can't control who she picks out to date. You CAN control who YOU pick. You can STOP picking her. You can end it with her, walk away from the whole thing and not deal with either of them anymore.

Honestly, I think she's being kind of dumb. You aren't saying "no." You are willing to do open/poly, just not with this messy dude in the mix.

A lot of spouses would just say "NO." Total dealbreaker. So to get hung up on this messy guy that she's not even interested in a long-term relationship with, rather than saying "Alright. He's just gonna be my music buddy, and the brother of my sister's BF. Let's discuss new agreements for open/poly instead--" this seems short sighted.

Or maybe she's just used to you being a people pleaser, so she's relying on that. She knows that you will go along with whatever in the end, even if you make some initial fuss. Is that happening here?

I'm not trying to be mean to you. I'm just genuinely concerned that maybe you are being too soft on this.

Galagirl

 

[Inaniel]

Could you elaborate a bit more? Do you have advice on how to make decisions about potentially messy situations? My main fear is that the situation will end poorly and we'll be stuck with this guy in our lives forever. So it's like, even if the chance of this happening is low, the outcome would be so negative that it's not worth the risk.

I think people in general are terrible at predicting outcomes and prone to catastrophizing predictions when it suits their own anxieties.

I think messy lists are just another way to try and control and manipulate people. That is not to say concerns are invalid, concerns are valid, but that’s not an excuse to control and dictate.

I think if the efficacy of a “messy list” could be studied the whole idea would fall flat on its face. It’s just another method of control and manipulation based on individual anxieties, and while the community has largely discarded many of these ideas the messy has stuck around and I just shake my head when I hear it…

You are in a monogamous relationship. My only advice is to decide for yourself if you want to participate in a poly relationship at all. If your just doing this shit to appease someone else, I would say there is more than a 50% chance you will end up in poly hell.

As far as agreements like messy lists, OPPs, mono/poly, and so on… It doesn’t really matter what I think. Adults can consent to whatever relationship configurations they feel best suits them. What works and what doesn’t is a personal journey and will sort itself out over time.

I did agree to a messy list once upon a time. And when I imagine how different my life would look right now if it had stuck; it blows my mind to think about what I could have missed out on…

 

[kdt26417]

Hello redracoon,

You ask if you should agree to your wife's request, and my answer is that you should do what feels right to you. You have concerns about the particular guy she is interested in. I do not think that you are okay with her getting involved with this guy, and I definitely don't think you want her getting involved with someone who will still be around if things end poorly. For this reason, I suggest you tell her, "We can have an open relationship, but not with this guy."

Of course, there is the complication that if you tell her, "No, not with this guy," that she may come to resent that. I guess you should figure that into the equation. But I don't want to be responsible for telling you to say yes to someone on your messy list. Do what you think is best. I stand by that advice.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[redracoon]

Thank you all. You've helped me a lot.

I spoke to my wife, and for now the answer to her request is no. I said I'll continue to think about it, and might re-evaluate it in the future.

While she disagrees that this guy would be "messy," she understands my apprehension (and her sister's!) and is okay not pursuing anything/being purely platonic with him.

Thanks to all your advice I have more peace of mind with my decision, knowing that my concerns are not crazy and that this is a common issue.

It was a very nice welcome to this forum, to have so many people reply thoughtfully to my questions! I can't thank you enough!

 

[dingedheart]

Hey red, I see that the situation sort of resolved itself, but if you don’t mind entertaining a few questions:

What was the idea/motivation to open, prior to getting married? To sow oats, or some sort of love and commitment test? Why and how did you decide to close? Was it considered temporary at the time?

 

[redracoon]

What was the idea/motivation to open prior to getting married?

The story is a little complicated, but here's a summary: Before we met, I had only had one serious relationship (of one year), and she had had 0. We met and started dating in college in Country A. After college, I moved to Country B for grad school and she came back to the US.

At the time I felt like I had two choices:
1) Do long distance for two years, at which point I saw that as basically deciding she would be my life partner.
2) Break up, get more relationship experience before making such an important decision, and then get back together.

I chose the second, as I felt neither of us had had enough dating experience to know if we should be life partners.

She was very upset, said she was sure about me, and suggested that we just have an open relationship, while I figured out what I wanted. In that time she did not date anyone. I did, but after about nine months, I decided that she was indeed the right person to be with.

Why and how did you decide to close?

The marriage itself was in part for legal/tax purposes. We are not religious or believe in the "institution of marriage," but we had chosen each other as life partners by that point.

We've always said that we don't think monogamy is objectively "right," but we agreed that we were satisfied romantically, just the two of us, and that having more relationships was basically unnecessarily complicating our lives and taking away time and energy from things we cared about more, like family, hobbies and career.

Finally, our families and friends were not okay when we were open (mostly with me as I was the only one "using it"), and while that was not the determining factor, it was just easier to do the standard thing. If we opened up again it would need to be secret to our families and friends, as it would be a source of constant fighting.

That happened again this time. Some of her family realized what was happening and they are still pretty upset at her at merely suggesting having this fling or opening the relationship.