Men vs. Women and "poly"

I hope to hear more from TL on this subject. Hopefully in this busy holiday week, he will come back and talk and not feel overwhelmed.

2ndly,..I don`t think partially paraphrasing me, made it 'clearer'. ...*shrugs*

3rdly - We are all judgemental. How we handle those judgements, and honestly assess them, is what allows us to think beyond our own scope. You don`t get through life without being judgemental as a regular part of being human. judgements protect and keep us safe, as much as they harm. Key is to know when you`ve gone to far, scale back, and adjust.
 
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I'm just wondering at what point it's ok for a man to indicate an interest in sex without being labeled an a-hole or a pig.
 
SourGirl said:
I hope to hear more from TL on this subject. Hopefully in this busy holiday week, he will come back and talk and not feel overwhelmed.

2ndly,..I don`t think partially paraphrasing me, made it 'clearer'. ...*shrugs*

3rdly - We are all judgemental. How we handle those judgements, and honestly assess them, is what allows us to think beyond our own scope. You don`t get through life without being judgemental as a regular part of being human. judgements protect and keep us safe, as much as they harm. Key is to know when you`ve gone to far, scale back, and adjust.
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Don't worry, I haven't left...Just in the middle of a move...so constantly pressed for time. ;)

Derbylicious said:
I'm just wondering at what point it's ok for a man to indicate an interest in sex without being labeled an a-hole or a pig.
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It's always ok to indicate that he's attracted to her, and that he wouldn't MIND having sex with her....but he needs to build the actual relationship with her...and show appropriate interest in her. If a man plays mouse more than he plays cat, it's highly likely he's a player and a user.....and therefore, an a-hole. If the woman is constantly finding herself calling him, and constantly asking HIM out...Then he's not really as interested as he purports to be. A truly interested man, will go after that which interests him.

And a truly poly man, will not simply mention sex every second of every conversation. ;)
 
TL4everu2 said:
It's always ok to indicate that he's attracted to her, and that he wouldn't MIND having sex with her....but he needs to build the actual relationship with her...and show appropriate interest in her. If a man plays mouse more than he plays cat, it's highly likely he's a player and a user.....and therefore, an a-hole. If the woman is constantly finding herself calling him, and constantly asking HIM out...Then he's not really as interested as he purports to be. A truly interested man, will go after that which interests him.
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Translation: Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Or, "All men are pigs".
 
TL4everu2 said:
It's always ok to indicate that he's attracted to her, and that he wouldn't MIND having sex with her...
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Haha, I would feel so offended if someone told me they "wouldn't mind" having sex with me. "Sure, go ahead, it doesn't bother me. Can I read my book/watch my game while you do it?". It sounds like a very poor way to phrase it, it sounds more like "I'm not too disgusted by you" than "I really like you".
 
Tonberry said:
Haha, I would feel so offended if someone told me they "wouldn't mind" having sex with me. "Sure, go ahead, it doesn't bother me. Can I read my book/watch my game while you do it?". It sounds like a very poor way to phrase it, it sounds more like "I'm not too disgusted by you" than "I really like you".
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I agree. However, it DOES fit right in with the "All (or most) men are pigs" mentality because "I believe men don't care about looks as long as they can stick their dick in a warm, wet hole (a tight one if given the choice)." Therefore, "most" men "wouldn't mind" having sex with any female human they meet. At least, that's the way it's been told to me by my pig-guy-friends. So, by that line of reasoning, I would be MORE put-off by someone who said they "wouldn't mind" having sex with me than by someone who said they "OMG Really Want" to have sex with me, or come to think of it - than by someone who said they absolutely did NOT want to have sex with me.

I get the sense that the OP and his wife simply prefer that the wife makes all the first moves, whether in words or actions, when it comes to initiating physical sex with another partner. AND THAT IS OK. But - call it what it IS, and don't make it out to be some sort of "screening process".

As far as "doing something differently to attract the kind of people you want - You should probably say, in your dating-profile, first conversation, and first date, that SHE likes to make ALL the first moves when it comes to sex, and that you/she recognize that this is one of YOUR personal quirks, but that it's very important to you, and non-negotiable. I bet then that you will be writing off a lot fewer people as "pigs" because you will have given them a better idea of what your expectations are. People are not mind-readers.

OTOH, I wouldn't be the good pessimist that I aspire to be if I didn't also acknowledge that this gives the REAL "pigs" a chance to play along with you, but I think that REAL "pigs" won't want to wait through that and will just go somewhere else.
 
I never got the whole playing games thing, but I don't see why it SHOULD be the female initiating ABC or it SHOULD be the male pursuing XYZ. There is way too much individual variation to try to pin certain relationship roles on certain genders - even more so when you have more than two people involved.

I also don't think putting off sex is beneficial in and of itself. Many people will prefer that, and that's fine, but I don't think that putting it off when everyone involved is ready will necessarily improve the relationship.
 
rabbit said:
I also don't think putting off sex is beneficial in and of itself. Many people will prefer that, and that's fine, but I don't think that putting it off when everyone involved is ready will necessarily improve the relationship.
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It very much depends on the circumstances and people involved, I believe. I know that long-distance relationships are the only ones that I've worked for me so far, because you are forced to do a lot of more meaningful things first (talk a lot, get to know each other, etc). In my previous relationships I would have sex right away and it would get in the way of getting to know each other because when we saw each other that's the only thing we did.
It's a problem on my part, mind you, and has nothing to do with any men being pigs. I was always the one who initiated it. I guess it could be said I don't have a lot of willpower as far as men are concerned, and while I don't enjoy casual sex without a deeper connection, I still end up pursuing it. I think it's just easier and less risky...

So in my situation, putting off sex is a good thing for me, and I believe it might be for other people too. I don't think it works for everyone though.
 
Tonberry said:
It very much depends on the circumstances and people involved, I believe. I know that long-distance relationships are the only ones that I've worked for me so far, because you are forced to do a lot of more meaningful things first (talk a lot, get to know each other, etc). So in my situation, putting off sex is a good thing for me, and I believe it might be for other people too. I don't think it works for everyone though.
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^^these parts edited. Ditto.

Why ? : Casual sex bores the fuck out of me. If I were to engage in it, I would be the one doing the wham-bamming, because once I`m bored with someone, it`s pretty much finito.

As for TL, I think the intent is to protect the wife, and its gone off track. There is a whole lot of fear involved in the generalizing.

What Neonkhaos said about 'the real pigs'......very good point.
 
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NeonKaos said:
Translation: Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Or, "All men are pigs".
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Not true. If the man is interested in MORE than just a casual fuck, he will not mind waiting. He will enjoy going out on dates and not have any expectations of sex at the end of them or while on them.

And I believe I said MOST men are pigs. Not all. ;)
 
redpepper said:
I know what you mean about piggish men. I have a zero tolerance for them. I wish men would not perpetuate the stereo type of piggish men get the girl cause it just isn't true. They might get some pussy and they might get some cock, but they don't get quality and the joy that comes from a connection... sure it is rare, but is available and when a person is engaged in piggish behaviour they miss the doors that open completely.

Finding numb connections with others means that is all that is drawn to you. I fully believe that have experienced that. Have you seen my post on whole hearted people in my blog? it talks more of this idea. to have joy we must be willing to engage, rather than be numb.

Mindfulagony, please don't settle. You are worth more than that and seem to want more than a shallow, surface, looking good from the outside connections and depth.
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Don't worry RP, I'm not giving up. I'm not so sure about the notion that pig'ishness isn't successful though. It is far too successful at any rate.

I'll stick to just being me. Whatever the appropriate label for that happens to be, I don't know. I'm sure it will bring fulfilling relationships if not flocks of interest.
 
Just caught up with this thread again. I feel the need to separate several different notions that are being comingled:
(1) the desire for sex early in a relationship (for arguments sake let's say that's about an hour into the first date)
(2) the desire for a primarily sexual relationship
(3) the willingness to feign interest in an emotional relationship to gain sexual access

From the OP first post, I thought the primary problem was of nature of (3) above. Which is a problem and, in my view, a fairly widespread one. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I believe it's widespread (note: I don't mean ALL or EVERY when I say widespread) because of a male-female dynamic. The stereotypes that we seem all too willing to play out: male as sexual aggressor and female as reluctant user of sex as bargaining chip for love, affection and whatever else (e.g., security, wealth, fame). Earlier someone else mentioned this same dymanic (Ariakas?) with less negative spin on it than my own.

This is the stuff of fairytales that have pissed me off since I was a wee lad. But, it is a powerful narrative that just gums up the works in so many unproductive ways. My - tentative - hypothesis is that this narrative underlies why strategy (3) is so widely used and its use generally accepted by men and women alike.

I see no particular problem with numbers (1) and (2) if they are up front and mutually agreed upon approaches to a particular relationship. Pig'ish labels need not apply.

I thought TL was primarily railing against situation (3). If he is, I would have to agree that there's far too many men who employ that strategy for one silly reason or another.

Agree with other comments that there's likely something about how they're approaching their search that seems to be disproportionately drawing the wrong kind of attention their direction.
 
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I don't really see the interest in casual sex so I'm not sure why men would feign interest just to stick their penis in a vagina. Seems like a little too much work to me?

I can understand puppy love or NRE but what do men get out of random casual sex? They might as well be sticking it in a fleshlight or something.
 
MindfulAgony said:
Just caught up with this thread again. I feel the need to separate several different notions that are being comingled:
(1) the desire for sex early in a relationship (for arguments sake let's say that's about an hour into the first date)
(2) the desire for a primarily sexual relationship
(3) the willingness to feign interest in an emotional relationship to gain sexual access

From the OP first post, I thought the primary problem was of nature of (3) above. Which is a problem and, in my view, a fairly widespread one. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I believe it's widespread (note: I don't mean ALL or EVERY when I say widespread) because of a male-female dynamic. The stereotypes that we seem all too willing to play out: male as sexual aggressor and female as reluctant user of sex as bargaining chip for love, affection and whatever else (e.g., security, wealth, fame). Earlier someone else mentioned this same dymanic (Ariakas?) with less negative spin on it than my own.

This is the stuff of fairytales that have pissed me off since I was a wee lad. But, it is a powerful narrative that just gums up the works in so many unproductive ways. My - tentative - hypothesis is that this narrative underlies why strategy (3) is so widely used and its use generally accepted by men and women alike.

I see no particular problem with numbers (1) and (2) if they are up front and mutually agreed upon approaches to a particular relationship. Pig'ish labels need not apply.

I thought TL was primarily railing against situation (3). If he is, I would have to agree that there's far too many men who employ that strategy for one silly reason or another.

Agree with other comments that there's likely something about how they're approaching their search that seems to be disproportionately drawing the wrong kind of attention their direction.
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DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!! #3 is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. TY ;)
 
I find it weird that anyone could be "jealous" and say pig-men are the one who get what they want. If you're not a pig, then what they want (and get) isn't something you would want anyway! It's sex without a connection and hurting other people. They might not care, but you probably would. Bottom line is, it's not for you, that's why you're not trying to get it.

It sounds to me like saying it's unfair that people who steal stuff get what they want. If you're not a thief, you wouldn't want what they get: stolen stuff. And you'd get a guilty conscience even if they don't.

Sure, it's easy to steal or to manipulate people, but the reason we don't do it is that there is nothing in it for us. I don't understand being jealous of that, I certainly wouldn't want to be in their shoes. They're not the ones who get the strong connection and everything you can get from having a life partner. And the "good guys", that's what they want, right? So no, the pigs don't get it any more than you do, they get something else that you're not interested in.
 
"If a man is open to more than a casual fuck, he will not mind waiting." True. And suppose he gets to the sex (because he didn't mind waiting), and comes to realize "we're not compatible." What does it take for him to not be a pig at that point? How long did it take you to find a compatible girlfriend in high school? How long did it take your wife to find a compatible boyfriend? How many things looked promising, but didn't last? Relationship fizzles are far more common than successes. You shop in a market filled with hope, but no satisfaction is guaranteed.
 
Tonberry said:
I find it weird that anyone could be "jealous" and say pig-men are the one who get what they want. If you're not a pig, then what they want (and get) isn't something you would want anyway! It's sex without a connection and hurting other people. They might not care, but you probably would. Bottom line is, it's not for you, that's why you're not trying to get it.

It sounds to me like saying it's unfair that people who steal stuff get what they want. If you're not a thief, you wouldn't want what they get: stolen stuff. And you'd get a guilty conscience even if they don't.

Sure, it's easy to steal or to manipulate people, but the reason we don't do it is that there is nothing in it for us. I don't understand being jealous of that, I certainly wouldn't want to be in their shoes. They're not the ones who get the strong connection and everything you can get from having a life partner. And the "good guys", that's what they want, right? So no, the pigs don't get it any more than you do, they get something else that you're not interested in.
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Jealousy is not exactly the right word here. Let me extend your analogy to try to better communicate what I mean. Thievery doesn't make me jealous, it pisses me off. Or more precisely, I get frustrated with people who choose to steal when what they want can usually be obtained through patience and hardwork (and a little luck too). My frustration not only arises when they steal my stuff but when they steal other too. Theft erodes trust. I'm also angry when they're selfish, uncaring acts hurt other people.

The same thing applies to pig'ish men. It is upsetting not because I want what they get. It is upsetting because it is disingenous and erodes trust. It is upsetting because it is hurtful.

Because of that hurt, some women put up a security fence (he says, hopefuly not taking the analogy a bridge too far). That (emotional) fence then creates a barrier to genuine connection when someone like me rolls around the corner. If TL's words are a reflection of the intensity and tone of his wife's feelings, I would venture to guess that her defenses are pretty well built at this point.
 
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After 40 years of dating I have come to know that it is best to make men wait, regardless of pigishness or not. Now that I know what I am made of in the casual sex arena, I would have no problems waiting until I am sure they are worth a relationship or not. I would hope they would do the same with me. I wouldn't want them to be involved with me if they are not a good match. Now that I have experienced what waiting creates in terms of really seeing what a person is like beyond lust I am content with what I have discovered. Most of the time they are not a good fit for me and I am glad I didn't go there. There is often something that doesn't fit with my values really. I am finding that this whole waiting thing takes the edge of it all for me. I don't have anything but enjoyment of moments with people rather than the dance of romance/sex that I used to have... like birds in a dance to mate. I am glad to be out of that thing whereby the male bird prances around like a testosterone idiot, while I decide if they are fuckable... only to find out that I was just a casual fuck more often than not... of course, as you all know if you have been following my life story that is, I don't have a casual sex bone in my body it seems, so I am talking from that place of course... if I did, I am thinking it would be a different story. That dance might be more interesting and cause more pigish behaviour from men. I dunno...I just have not ever been interested in involving myself really. I just walk away thinking of it as a complement and don't find out how it would end if I actually gave the man the time of day. Is that mean? I mean, I'm sure at some level it hurts their feelings as that is way a lot of men have been trained to pursue women...women have taught them that because they accept it... am I in someway damaging their ego by not engaging them? Should I stop and explain to them why I am about to walk away from them? What is a woman's responsibility here?

mindful,,, glad you are keeping it real by being you ..that is attractive to me. :) ..... if men can be pigish though... what if that is being themselves though?
 
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