Mental Illness and Abuse (could be triggery)

[LizziE]

Jessica's recent series (which I've been reading on her blog) have been making me wonder lately about my situation with my abusive, controlling, and dependent metamour.

I've had several major depressive episodes in my life. One in college had psychotic features - I was hearing voices, and at one point, I was convinced that Satan was telling me to kill myself. Which is how I ended up being institutionalized; I went to a friend who was Catholic (I was raised Catholic) and asked if she knew if local priests would perform an exorcism. I had self-harmed to try to drive Satan away, but it didn't work.

During the times when I was that mentally ill, I did some abusive things. When I was having paranoid and psychotic episodes, sometimes I would be convinced that my friends were out to get me. I'd sneak out of the dorm (like, out the window, creeping through the bushes), get to my car, drive off, and then call them and tell them that I KNEW they were out to get me, and that I'd escaped and that they'd never find me; I'd kill myself before I let them "get" me.

So...the mental hospital was a really good idea. Clearly.

I got treatment and medication. The episodes got better. I did cognitive behavioral therapy. Things got MUCH better. I started taking really good care of myself, getting exercise, eating lots of veggies, cut down on processed food, getting a lot of sleep. Over time, I got to where I am today, which is that sometimes I do have depressive episodes, but I haven't had any psychosis or hallucinations in years.

When I was getting better, I apologized to the friends that I was terrible to (the above is the only form of abuse that I ever committed). I told them that if they wanted nothing to do with me, I wouldn't blame them at all. Some people stayed my friends. Some dropped me. I'm incredibly grateful for the ones who stayed and bear absolutely no ill will towards the ones who didn't.

That is my personal experience as a person with mental health issues and being abusive.

Now, for Lora, she regularly blames her problems on her PTSD and anxiety. She will also say that having those things doesn't make what she does OK. But it is the fault of THOSE things that she acts abusively, controllingly, horribly.

How much merit does that have? Could there be any truth to it, or is it a scapegoat? Could it account for certain behaviors/thoughts, but not others?

I'm just wondering because mental health problems aren't exactly uncommon. I have bipolar friends, depressed friends, another friend with PTSD, friends with ADD/ADHD, anxiety...I've never seen any of them act abusively. Not that it's a "one size fits all" - but - I just wonder.

Thoughts?

Also, somewhat related, but not totally, it does bother me that Lora constantly cites PTSD and anxiety as causing problems for her...but refused to get therapy for years. It's like, something in my head says "no, sorry, you can't blame your mental illnesses and then refuse to get treatment for them". I know that that is a totally unfair thought (right?). It stems from the way that I handled my mental illness. I don't know where to "put" people mentally like Lora, who will complain about how mental illness limits them, but also refuse to seek therapy (other than take medication, which she at least does) to make those problems better. If I need a talking-to about that viewpoint, I am absolutely willing to take it.

 

[Kerala]

Who ever is not able to act properly and is refusing to take the blame AND improves over time but instead blames his illnes, is required to look for professional help.
Apart from that - you need to protect yourself. You might be able to learn how to handle her or seek distance, if certain behavior of her sets in.

 

[JessicaBurde]

How much merit does that have? Could there be any truth to it, or is it a scapegoat? Could it account for certain behaviors/thoughts, but not others?

I'm just wondering because mental health problems aren't exactly uncommon. I have bipolar friends, depressed friends, another friend with PTSD, friends with ADD/ADHD, anxiety...I've never seen any of them act abusively. Not that it's a "one size fits all" - but - I just wonder.

Thoughts?

Also, somewhat related, but not totally, it does bother me that Lora constantly cites PTSD and anxiety as causing problems for her...but refused to get therapy for years. It's like, something in my head says "no, sorry, you can't blame your mental illnesses and then refuse to get treatment for them". I know that that is a totally unfair thought (right?). It stems from the way that I handled my mental illness. I don't know where to "put" people mentally like Lora, who will complain about how mental illness limits them, but also refuse to seek therapy (other than take medication, which she at least does) to make those problems better. If I need a talking-to about that viewpoint, I am absolutely willing to take it.

One of my partners has been emotionally abusive in the past, and I very much believe the abuse was related to his mental illness. I wrote about the details here: http://qr.ae/fC6Wt

The vast majority of people I know with mental illness are not abusive, or are only self-abusive. Neglect is sadly common--when you are so ill you can't take care of yourself, taking care of other people just isn't happening--but abuse not so much.

That said, no it isn't one size fits all. Certain types of mental illness--especially those that come with paranoia and/or anger, but also others as well--do lend themselves to abuse. However not everyone whose illness includes paranoia or anger is abusive. Sometimes someone who is depressive will turn abusive as they lash out at people around them in a defensive reaction to the constant pain they are in.

So your metamour's blaming her illness may be just the truth of what is going on--PTSD is actually one of the mental illnesses most likely to lead to abuse, AFAIK, especially when the PTSD was caused by violence. A soldier who attacks his wife thinking she's an insurgent sneaking up on him is classic PTSD, after all.

That said if Lora is being abuse, no, you are not being at all unfair in your reaction to her. Here's the thing: If you are such a bad driver you get into an accident every time you get behind the wheel, it is your responsibility to stop driving or take a course to learn how to drive safely. If you don't, you'll lose your license.

If you accidentally stand on someone's foot in a crowded subway, you don't get to say "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see you there" and then refuse to move your foot.

Lora is aware that her behavior is hurtful and abusive, and from what you are saying is refusing to take steps to stop hurting the people around her. This is wrong. Period.

Now, just because therapy helped you doesn't mean it will help her. Maybe she's tried it and it hasn't helped. Maybe she had a shitty therapist who made her PTSD worse (They're out there). Maybe lots of things. But if therapy is not a "good" way for her to get help than she still has a responsibility to try to find other options. Meditation, support groups, 12 step programs, CBT, art therapy, horse therapy, service animals for mental illness (they exist, they are awesome), wilderness immersion, massage, acupuncture (not going to get into the quackery debate--whether it's valid treatment or placebo, for some people it fucking works), I could go on a while.

Being fair, it may be that she is so deep in the illness that she just can't believe anything will make it better. Been there, done that, got the shirt, as they say. That's a really sucky horrible place to be, and a sympathize. But end of the day, if you hurt someone it is your responsibility to:
A: do what you can to make restitution/make it right with that person
B: do what you can to ensure you do not repeat the harm you have done.

Mental illness doesn't let you off the hook on either of those. It does give you a starting point on how to address point B, while at the same time often making B fucking hard to achieve. But no one promised us life would be easy.


Hope you've enjoyed the blog series/found it useful!

 

[GalaGirl]

It's like, something in my head says "no, sorry, you can't blame your mental illnesses and then refuse to get treatment for them". I know that that is a totally unfair thought (right?)

Actually, she CAN blame and then refuse. She is doing that behavior.

I think what you are struggling to articulate is your personal boundary framed from your POV. If so?

To me that sounds like my personal boundary of "I do not hang out with people who are unmanaged." It is totally fair for me to have that boundary for myself. I get to pick my limit of tolerance. I get to pick my behaviors.

I have a friend "on pause." We are not active friends right now because I told him I cannot be around him when he chooses to go untreated. He wanted to use his illness as excuse to act out and not exercise self control. I get that having illness makes it harder for him to do, but it does not let him off the hook at this point in time.

• He is aware of his illness. It is not one where he does not even know he is ill.
• He is not in need of a medical guardian because he cannot make his choices for himself.

At this time, it is his responsibility to choose his behaviors and make his choices. He is simply using his illness to be exceptional....like he does not have to play by the same rules everyone else does. Some patients do that. Have this weird sense of entitlement. "I am sick, so I get a pass when I choose to behave like a jerk to people. "

Um...no. Not around me he doesn't. I did not sign off on that pass.

You sound like you have one that is partially treated, but that is not enough for you to feel safe and ok around her. She chooses behaviors you do not like. You cannot force her to change her behavior or how she approaches managing her illnesses. That is her job to do. Not your job.

You can change YOUR behaviors though...and that includes updating your personal boundaries to not be around her if she chooses to go partially treated or untreated. That IS your job to do.

You could have and set a personal boundary of "I do not hang around people who are untreated or under treated." Then you could obey your own limit.

I think it is fair for you to pick what you will and will not allow yourself to be around.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Liz,

Re (from OP):

"Jessica's recent series (which I've been reading on her blog)"

... for reference's sake can be found at: Polyamory and Mental Illness: New Blog Series.

Re:

"How much merit does that have? Could there be any truth to it, or is it a scapegoat? Could it account for certain behaviors/thoughts, but not others?"

I think that depends on the nature and intensity of the PTSD and anxiety, what kind of built-in resistance Lora has to stave off the PTSD and anxiety, and what other complicating factors may exist in or around her.

Could Lora be lying (to herself and/or others)? Of course. But an amateur perspective on an internet forum won't tell us if that's the case. Lora needs a professional diagnosis by a very good psychiatrist.

Re:

"It's like, something in my head says, 'No, sorry, you can't blame your mental illnesses and then refuse to get treatment for them.' I know that that is a totally unfair thought (right?)."

It depends. We need to know *why* she's refusing treatment if she knows she has a problem. Is it because she doesn't trust therapists? because she's comfortable acting out? because therapy makes her uncomfortable? some other reason? a combination of things?

In the past, I have certainly acted abusively towards other people, and while I think my own mental/emotional issues were partly at fault, I also have deep shame and remorse over the way I acted. Like Lora, I'm not in therapy but I take prescription meds ... and they do seem to help, a lot. Though I had to try a huge range of meds before arriving at the right type/dosage for me. Sometimes therapy has helped, but more often not, especially in recent times.

So there are abusively-acting people who can be treated with meds alone. However, from your description, for Lora the meds alone do not suffice. Even she admits that. Therefore, she probably needs therapy (and quite possibly some med adjustments as well). But she must be willing to seek the treatment. Otherwise it doesn't work.

Hope that's helpful,
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[LizziE]

.

You could have and set a personal boundary of "I do not hang around people who are untreated or under treated." Then you could obey your own limit

Here's the thing: I set that limit. Or rather, the limit of "I am not living with with someone who is abusive due to mental illness (as she claims), and not getting therapy for it and improving"

Really, to Jessica's point up-thread, I don't care if it's therapy that does it. It could be meds, animal therapy, acupuncture (I agree with you, Jessica - I have friends who swear by acupuncture and are the most grounded, logical, results oriented people I know), meditation, whatever...the point is that we cannot live together if she stays the abusive person that she currently is.

Not long after the blow-up happened a few months ago where I set that limit, Lora got a job, and so she was doing the job plus a full load of schoolwork. So Jon took over looking for therapists. To make a long story short, he found them a couples therapist, and she (and he) both took that as "enough". Turns out, we had a miscommunication during that fight. I said to Lora "You need therapy for your anger and abuse issues". She said "yes, and I know that Jon and I need couples therapy to work on our issues". I thought we all understood that while it was probably a good idea for her and Jon to get couples therapy, most of the problems are not couples problems, they are LORA problems, and she needs solo therapy for them.

Turns out, Jon and Lora both thought couples therapy would be "good enough".

Also turns out, couple therapy when one party is abusive is often actually a BAD idea:

http://www.psychotherapy.net/article/couples-abuse-assessment

(I sent that link to Jon).

Anyways, it's been 3 months, and Jon and Lora will be starting couples therapy soon. Lora and Jon will also each be starting solo therapy soon.

My gut now tells me that therapy isn't going to help Lora, in part because after agreeing to therapy, she then changed her mind and said she didn't need it (which is total BS), then agreed to it after both Jon and I said that she HAD to try, or (like I said three months ago) we wouldn't all be able to live together.

So we're clear, when I initially said to Lora that she needed therapy a few months ago, I did think it would help her. It as watching her (once the crisis was over) revert back to saying she didn't need therapy, watching her make absolutely no improvement in the last few months, and some of the things she's said in emails to me since ("couples therapy will improve my confidence in me and Jon's relationship" and "I have experiences in my life that I think therapy might try to bring up that I refuse to revisit for any reason" among others) that changed my mind.

But we are seeing if therapy (or anything) helps, because if she doesn't improve, like I said three months ago, we can't continue to live together. That is a boundary that I know I need to enforce at some point, if things don't improve. But since it's way bigger than just hanging out together (what with the need for moving to happen), it's, you know, a hard, scary, stressful thing for me to pull the trigger on.

I just realized, writing this, that it is possible that Jon might take me moving out because Lora isn't healthy enough as a "sign" that Lora isn't ever going to be healthy enough for him to have a healthy relationship with. I made it clear to him a number of times that me moving out doesn't mean the end of me and Jon's relationship - we can go back to living together part-time. But thinking about his reaction lately, I'm starting to wonder if a part of him is saying to him "If Liz can't hack this, that is a big sign that you (Jon) should walk away from Lora too". So I am definitely going to talk to him about that.

But an amateur perspective on an internet forum won't tell us if that's the case. Lora needs a professional diagnosis by a very good psychiatrist.

I know no one here can diagnose her. But anecdotally, I can at least see what experience others have had with this, and it can help inform my decision about how much latitude I'm willing to give her explanations/excuses.

Also, according to Lora, her psychiatrist has diagnosed her with ADD/ADHD, severe social anxiety, and PTSD. You're getting that thirdhand, and I'm getting it secondhand, so for both of us, it's an act of faith that Lora (and me) are reporting truthfully.

It depends. We need to know *why* she's refusing treatment if she knows she has a problem. Is it because she doesn't trust therapists? because she's comfortable acting out? because therapy makes her uncomfortable? some other reason? a combination of things?

First she said she'd never done therapy before, and she was afraid of it because it was unknown. They she said she'd never done therapy as an adult before, but she did it as a child and as an adolescent and it was terrible (though she hasn't said how or why it was terrible), so she didn't want to do it again. She also said she doesn't really need it. She also said it was too expensive to be worth it. Then she said that therapy often stirs up old wounds and that there were things in her that she refused to revisit under any circumstance.

The therapist that she is going to does emotionally focused therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy, so there isn't necessarily a DEMAND that she go into past painful experiences. Both therapies are centered around looking at behaviors that are happening NOW and are harmful, and then making a play to get away from those harmful behaviors.

So there are abusively-acting people who can be treated with meds alone. However, from your description, for Lora the meds alone do not suffice. Even she admits that. Therefore, she probably needs therapy (and quite possibly some med adjustments as well). But she must be willing to seek the treatment. Otherwise it doesn't work.

Exactly. I honestly think (to answer your question above) that she does feel comfortable acting out. I am starting to worry that she thrives on intense emotions, and it's easier for her to get a "hit" with the negative ones. If I talk to her about something that happened to me at work that was negative, for her, it turns into a "THOSE BASTARDS! YOU MUST GET EVEN WITH THEM NOW!" reaction, no matter how insignificant the negative situation that I mentioned was. She also (and this is something that I started really pushing back on her this weekend about) has a habit of TELLING people what to do - so I'm halfway through talking about something, and she'll interrupt me to say "Well, what you need to do is <this major overreactive behavior that will escalate the situation, not improve it".

She also jokingly says things like "well, I'm an angry person so I act that way because I just want to make people pay". That is a direct quote. She says that. I think she likes being like that. I think when she starts therapy and has a therapist who says "Ok, if you're going to tell yourself that you're an angry person who want to always get even with people, then that will inform ALL of your relationships and you won't have room in your heart for love and understanding", she's going to just...not be willing to let go of being that angry, revenge-seeking person, for whatever reason. Maybe because it's all she's known for years. Maybe because she does genuinely enjoy the way it makes her feel.

What we tell ourselves about ourselves has enormous potential to shape our experience - I know that from the cognitive behavioral therapy that I've had. I still use that as a tool for my own self-growth and self-management.

Here's a thing that happened awhile ago. Religious people left a pamphlet on our door with a note. The note said "we're sorry we missed you. we'll return on X date". On X date, when I got home from work, the pamphlet was taped on our door, and written in Lora's hand-writing on the note was "We're not sorry we missed you. Go fuck with someone else".

I could totally see leaving a note that said "Sorry, we are not interested. Please don't return, we don't want to talk". But leaving that note? Taking the time to hold on to it until the return date, write the note, and tape it back up? It's a level of petty maliciousness that I think does not speak well of her.

Anyways, to get back to the point - those are reasons why I don't think that she is going to get better. But on top of that, I d want to know - could having PTSD and severe social anxiety reasonable excuses for her behavior? I don't think either of those explains the meanness that often infuses her behaviors. But it would be helpful to hear if others who had partners with those diagnoses has feedback on what could be contributed to those things and what couldn't be.

 

[GalaGirl]

Here's the thing: I set that limit. Or rather, the limit of "I am not living with with someone who is abusive due to mental illness (as she claims), and not getting therapy for it and improving"

So why are you still living there rather than moving out? Or evicting her if it is your name on the lease/you own the house? Could leave Jon and Lora to their drama and reduce exposure/stress on your end of it. You don't have to be enduring YOUR home life being topsy turvy.

You could leave to get YOU safe. Then help him from a that safer distance if you are inclined to. Or end with him if not.

If he's still in "I know this is abusive. I just want the abuse to stop. I don't want to leave my partner" stage...

He / you could read the stages links in the middle of page here:

http://speakoutloud.net/articles

I find those helpful because they tell friends and family what to do for the abused in that stage. It may be you are too close to the situation at this time to be and effective guiding light for him though -- to encourage him to read things and encourage him to seek professional help for himself.

Your energy may be better spent helping yourself first. You get your own counseling and move out first, model how it CAN be done. Then try to encourage from there.

That is a boundary that I know I need to enforce at some point, if things don't improve. But since it's way bigger than just hanging out together (what with the need for moving to happen), it's, you know, a hard, scary, stressful thing for me to pull the trigger on.

I get that enforcing it is scary. But the problem with staying in a situation like that is that it is like quicksand. That is scary too. Because the longer you are there sinking, the harder it can become to get yourself out. You risk missing the boat -- to get out while getting out is still doable even though it feels yucky.

• Like you have stress at home. Don't sleep well. Oversleep. Miss work. Get fired. Now you can't get out even if you wanted because you have no money to get out with.
  
• Like you have weird at home. Your other friends don't come over any more. You are too run down to see them. You become isolated. Shit hits the fan. You have no friends to lean on and take you in because you let the friendships die.
  
• Like you have weird at home. It takes a toll. You become depressed from the situation. You lose the will/energy/ability to make changes to get you out because your are mired too deep in your OWN mental health problems losing hope. To get out, you have to get well first. But you cannot get well because you are there and need to get out first. Chicken-egg problem.

Simplistic examples from people I've known and observed in similar straits -- but you see what I mean? It can become a slippery slope thing if put off too long.

Could having PTSD and severe social anxiety reasonable excuses for her behavior?

I could be wrong, but I think you say "reasonable excuse" where you might mean "reasonable explanation."

Like...

could having PTSD and severe social anxiety be reasonable explanations for her behavior?

You seem to be trying to make sense of it all. I don't know if this could help you.

http://outofthefog.net

AFTER you move out though. Then you have time and space to mull on that. Don't use it for reason to snooze tag and linger living there (which is already ugh to you) hoping it will fix itself or go away... remember the slippery slope. Your first duty is to you -- putting your own oxygen mask on and getting YOU to safety. After that you can help Jon from surer footing. But not before. In his wonky attachment to her, he could pull you under. That is not good for you to allow.

Sometimes the best is for you to let go of the rope.

http://kevinmartineau.ca/would-you-let-go-of-the-rope/

Which may or may not wake Jon up so he attends to his first duty -- taking care of himself FIRST. When that is secured, then he can choose to help others from a place of sure footing.

it would be helpful to hear if others who had partners with those diagnoses has feedback on what could be contributed to those things and what couldn't be.

From the lens of my experience? Which is NOT professional and limited because I don't hang with lots of messed up people?

I would say "bipolar" or "borderline" could explain some of it. Maybe "histrionic" -- certainly one of those Cluster B's could explain some of that. Or even a Cluster B combo on top of the PTSD and social anxiety. I don't think you have a single thing person here. You sound like you have a combo pack of some kind.

The "lack of impulse" control and "hanging on to grudges" and "seeming to thrive on righteous anger/revenge stuff" came from unmanaged bipolar and unmanaged borderline in my persons.

Anyways, to get back to the point - those are reasons why I don't think that she is going to get better.

I agree with you. She sounds very wonky.

While it is human nature to want to know WHY and HOW and all that? I don't think this is the time to spend energy on that. I think your time energy is better spent getting YOU to safety first. Then once there, you can spend and much time as you want trying to sort out the WHYs and the HOWs.

Right now it seems to be a distraction. Like "Let's spend time thinking on (Whys and Hows of Lora's illness) so I don't have to be thinking about (me pulling the scary trigger and moving out.)"

Why can't the blind guy see? Cuz blind.
Why can't the deaf guy hear? Cuz deaf.
Why can't the wacky Lora do normal? Cuz wacky.

It's as simple as that. Focus on YOUR stuff at this time, not hers.

As gently as I can over internet? Hon, if you already have reasons to believe it won't get better, Lora will not take personal responsibility for managing her conditions effectively, Lora behaves too wacky for you to tolerate, and staying here in this situation is not great for you? You are not approaching limit of tolerance but well PAST it.

You could focus on getting out of the line of fire first, and then processing the experience second.

I think this is one of those times where each person could carry their own baggage. Everyone takes care of their own. That is fair.

You let go of the rope for carrying Jon's. Let him carry his. Jon has the same lesson right now -- to learn carry his own bag, and to let Lora carry hers.

Again... she has mental illness. But she is not so far gone she requires a guardian to make her medical choices for her. Jon is not her guardian. She is still responsible for making her choices. She chooses to go untreated/undertreated. She chooses to do do mean things.

Well, Jon chooses to date her this way.

And you choose to date Jon and live there while he's doing that. It's time for choices to change, and the only ones you can change are the ones that belong to you. You can change where you live, or change who you date, or both or none. I don't think you want to pick changing none.

It's all hard to pick from what it left on the table. I know. You still get to pick your hard. So pick rather than postpone. I think decisiveness is what will pave the way out of here for you.

In your shoes, I would pick move out. See how that works for a time. And at the end of the time if things still don't improve? I'd pick stop dating Jon after that. Sad as it is, if he is hell bent on going down with the Lora ship, you do not have to join him.

HTH!
Galagirl

 

[LizziE]

Thank you for the abuse links, GG. I'm definitely going to read through them and send the relevant ones to Jon.

Though I would ask - if you have any - a lot of the writing is slanted towards women abusing men. I've been looking all over for sources that deal with woman abusing men and what to do. I worry that the gendered nature of a lot of the articles may reinforce to Jon that this really ISN'T abuse, because man abuse women. Women are just sometimes...difficult. But not abusers.

(I don't KNOW that he feels that way, but...he's having a really hard time admitting it's abusive, and I think part of that is gender-related)

I agree with your slippery slide into bad things happening. That is all totally true. Some of that has happened here.

My name is the only name on the lease.

I initially gave Lora a chance because I know what it's like to be in a bad place and need a little time to get my shit together. At the time that I said "you need to get therapy and get better, or we can't live together anymore", we had (the three of us) lived together well for about eight months, then hit a really rough patch of two months. Things hadn't been amazing for those first eight months; there had been some things that occurred that concerned me, but they were all small enough that they didn't add up to a huge red flag. They more added up to a "Lora could use some therapy to improve on those things" flag.

Then, in mid-Dec, when Lora quit her job, things steeply went downhill. Problems with time and attention management that we'd had when Jon and I first started dating came back (problems that had been quiescent for at least ten months). New problems started.

So we had our big "Lora needs therapy" talk in Feb. At this point, I am looking at eight months of us living together well and four months of things going well before we all moved in together (so a year of relative smoothness) versus two months of things going badly.

Things going well for so long would indicate that we could get back to there. It's just going to take a little time. I'm willing to give Lora that time, based on the prior year of things going pretty smoothly.

Now, three months have gone by since the talk in February. Lora IS starting therapy soon. In the meantime, things haven't improved, Lora has continued to be abusive towards Jon at times, be controlling, and generally behaves negatively in ways that raise more and more red flags to me. This makes me wonder how much of that ten months of smoothness while we first lived together was Lora masking her true behavior for months on end.

I am not someone who does that. I don't believe on being on my "best behavior" when I meet someone. I want to be on my NATURAL behavior - the person they see on day one is the person I always am.

Jon, I discovered, is the same way. The person I met the day I met him is the same person he is now. I know him better. His behavior hasn't significantly changed due to "best behavior" falling away after the first few months.

I don't know if I could say the same of Lora. Maybe most of that earlier good behavior was a mask. This actually just occurred to me now, because like I said, I'm not like that. The people I make friendships with aren't like that either - the people I meet who are, as their "true self" comes out, I move away from them naturally.

It didn't occur to me just now to question how much of that good behavior was Lora hiding her true self. Fuck.

In theory, I could wait to initiate us breaking up the apartment until I see how therapy does for Lora. I feel pressure to wait and see - pressure from Lora, pressure from Jon, pressure from myself. Having dealt with my own mental illness, I feel guilty about the idea that Lora getting better could be hindered by me "abandoning her" doing her process when she's *finally* about to get help.

Intellectually, I know that's BS. Emotionally, I know that I need to take care of myself; that has to come first. And leaving for my own health isn't DOING something to Lora - it's doing something FOR ME. How Lora interprets it is up to her, and not my problem, though I'm sure Lora would make me mine/Jon's problems.

Also, we're now looking at move like five months of things being badly, versus a year of things going well. So it's evening out time-wise. It's also setting up a pattern which I can see and discern, and I pointed out to Jon - a pattern of things improving for a bit, but always sliding back down eventually.

Also, FTR, for the year when things went "pretty well", that's my take on it. I have no idea what may have been going on behind the scenes, and if it wasn't as good as I thought, but that the bad things were being hidden. I don't THINK that Jon would do that, but I'm not 100% sure.

Moving along...

Then there's the money/time aspect of moving out, which also makes things hard.

I know that if I told Lora she couldn't live with us anymore, Jon would also move out partway. If Lora couldn't live with us, she simply would not be able to get another place to live. She doesn't have the saving or the means or the ability to take care of herself. She would have to move back with her family. They live far enough away that she wouldn't be able to commute to the job she now has, so she'd have to quit her job.

So I know, for absolute certain, that if I told Lora that we can't live together anymore, Jon would also partially move out. I know that the task of finding a new place, paying application fees, hiring movers, etc, would all fall on Jon.

I know that it's Jon's choice that things are linked together like that.

But I know that having Lora move out entirely and having Jon move out partially would be emotionally traumatic for all of us, and right now, it feels like that would be more traumatic than continuing to see what happens once Lora gets therapy. I could be wrong, but I have (in the past) had a pretty good sense of...how to say this...of weighing two options and correctly picking the less painful one. Which doesn't always mean that I followed the less painful one - but it did seem like I had a good sense of how each thing would go.

I am currently putting an oxygen mask of sorts on, to take better care of myself during this process. I gave Jon a list of things that I need in order to keep living with Lora and seeing how therapy works for her, because yes, we are still going with the "I will try to live with Lora and see if she gets better" scenario.

I just gave him that list on Friday, and started implementing those things this weekend. I do feel an improvement mentally and emotionally, having done so.

Oh, and also, I wanted to say that I like the Out of Fog site, and I sent Jon back a link to the Dependent Personality Disorder one, because of all of them, I feel like that describes her behavior the best:

http://outofthefog.net/Disorders/DPD.html

It actually covers every negative behavior of hers, though she hasn't (to my knowledge) been diagnosed as such by a psychiatrist.

TLDR - I know moving out would be the most emotionally healthy thing for me to do. I'm not there yet. I don't think I'm 100% ready to give up on Lora yet. I have started taking steps to take care of myself better mentally, while I see how Lora does. And I continue to look into things myself, that will help inform my decision to cut Lora out of my life totally (if it comes to that). I also look for those things to show them to Jon (like the out of fog link) so that he's more informed, whether he chooses to leave her or not. But either way, he will see the many reasons why I have decided that living with/being around Lora isn't good for me.

It's also...I don't quite know how to put this. GG - I'm like you, in that I don't tolerate people who use mental illness as an excuse for bad behavior. I've dropped a lot of friends and romantic interests when it became clear that someone I was getting to know behaved in that manor. I knew, before moving in, that Lora had SOME problems - but my impression (from both her and Jon) was that they were generally under control. I have let Jon know that I am extremely angry with him about how things went downhill and how I felt like he didn't tell me how bad it could get. He has (reasonably) pointed out that he and Lora living together had its ups and downs, but the four months they lived together before moving in with me all were much better AND the first eight months that we lived together went well enough to be totally livable. So, given those things, I'm not totally sure what we could have done better, up front. The only thing I can think of is that during the prior huge fight that happened (which was December 2013), that Jon should have broken up with Lora then, because it turns out that they have a huge fight like that nearly yearly, and it was their second such fight, so maybe that should have been enough to call it a pattern that isn't going to get better?.

But he didn't, and it "got better" again, until December 2014, where once again things went downhill and then exploded in February.

But my point - right - I haven't made this bad a misstep in living with someone in years. In my personal life, all my friends are emotionally mature people who sometimes have Shit. But they Handle Their Shit. They are healthy. This is like the only way that an unhealthy person could get in so close to me. And in the future, I am still mulling through steps to take to make sure something like this doesn't happen again. The smartest thing I have figured out is maybe if Jon or me finds a love that we want to live with, we do something like all of us live in the same building for a year and do our best to practically live together for a year before actually all MOVING in together. That way, if things go south, there are separate apartments to retreat to, which would make a HUGE difference.

 

[GalaGirl]

Same website has a guy section.

http://speakoutloud.net/men

Glad the links help.

"Quiet waif borderline" also has a lot of "make myself your dependent" to it. But if you think its dependent PD as the "main flavor" here that is entirely possible.

You cannot dx, but hopefully it gives you a new perspective for what you might have on your hands.

I know moving out would be the most emotionally healthy thing for me to do. I'm not there yet. I don't think I'm 100% ready to give up on Lora yet.

Interesting you choose to frame it this way.

I would say me giving Lora back her rope and the reins to her life is me being confident that she can hack it without my input. That is not giving UP on her.

SHE might say she is not confident she can hack it and people abandon her and waaaaah!

But take a step back. See clear. She IS hacking it already.

IME, PD people (of whatever flavor their personality disorder dx is) are very resourceful and find a new source to glom on to. It's not a healthy way of living, but hey! They hack it successfully.

That is hard for healthy people to get their heads around. Because healthy people want healthy things. They cannot imagine wanting unhealthy.

Sometimes the PD might put in the hard work and time to get their wacky under management and learn new HEALTHY ways of going.

But it is one or the other. They either do or do not. You have a "do not" living in your house.

In theory, I could wait to initiate us breaking up the apartment until I see how therapy does for Lora. I feel pressure to wait and see - pressure from Lora, pressure from Jon, pressure from myself.

What do each get out of it if you postpone?

• You = still living in hell
• Jon = still living in hell, but don't have to find place to live.
• Lora = Does not have to find place to live, or go live with her family. Can live in your home still glomming on you. Works for her. Yay!

What do each get if you follow through?

• You get new flat without crazy in it. Works for you. And you did your job of finding you place to live.
• Jon = has to find a place for him to live. (Which is his job.)
• Lora = has to find a place for her to live. (Which is her job.)

What is horrible about everyone doing their job that you are unwilling to allow it?

Having dealt with my own mental illness, I feel guilty about the idea that Lora getting better could be hindered by me "abandoning her" doing her process when she's *finally* about to get help.

I wonder if Lora knows about your mental illness in the past and uses it to her advantage?

GUILTY is a word used for crimes you did. This is not a crime.

You chose to feel RESPONSIBLE for Lora. How come? Is she your dependent? Nope.

You seem to confuse "support her in her process" with "enable her to AVOID doing her actual process while she's talking like she's doing it."

Or rather, it started as you giving her time and space to get her act together. You were trying to support her in her process. But because she is not following through on her end of the deal, it has BECOME you being her enabler.

Do you like it? Nope. So stop.

You do not have to feel guilty. You held up your end of the stick. She did not hold up hers. You might be disappointed in that, but that is not GUILT. That is disappointment.

You not being up for more of that? She might call it "abandonment" but is it really? Nope.

IME, some PD people go on about how people always "abandon" them because it makes for a nice sob story to hook the new victim. Saying it like it is?

"I do not like taking personal responsibility, and following through. I want people to super respect my boundaries. I want to overstep others' boundaries so I can glom on, mooch, and suck them dry. I want them to give me the special pass to do it too."

That is not as good a hook. Telling a good "Poor Lil ol' me" story is part of their stock in trade.

That doesn't mean you lack compassion. It means you don't buy a second ticket for that ride.

I knew, before moving in, that Lora had SOME problems - but my impression (from both her and Jon) was that they were generally under control.

That was then. Maybe they were even under control... then. How is it TODAY? Not under control.

It didn't occur to me just now to question how much of that good behavior was Lora hiding her true self. Fuck.

You have new thought... but it doesn't change your position much.

• My name on lease.
• I don't like living like this.
• Now what?

Whether "she faked her way in here" in there or not...

That's your line item right now.

I haven't made this bad a misstep in living with someone in years.

Well, how can you decide well when you don't have all the data? Especially if now you suspect she was fronting a good front at first just to get in there? A lot of the PDs can be smoothie talkin' at first. Cluster B's can be super duper charming when they want.

Don't blame yourself and get stuck. Keep moving it forward.

Don't hop around tending to other people's bags. Tend to your own.

In the future, I am still mulling through steps to take to make sure something like this doesn't happen again. The smartest thing I have figured out is maybe if Jon or me finds a love that we want to live with, we do something like all of us live in the same building for a year and do our best to practically live together for a year before actually all MOVING in together. That way, if things go south, there are separate apartments to retreat to, which would make a HUGE difference.

Bingo. Or if homes are owned, rent one but NOT sell it. Just in case. But that is future.

Try to be in the present moment, even if it sucks right now. Get grounded.

Stay out of Lora stuff. Don't spend energy trying to "mega understand" her illnesses and her motivations. It's enough for now to go "Why wacky lady not do normal? Cuz wacky." You do not have to understand it at "therapist level" to make decisions about who you want to hang out with and where you want to live.

Right now you also sound like you are putting energy into getting Jon to decide to set his limits rather than enforcing your own. Stay out of Jon stuff. Share the links, but don't be making him read them or "become his therapist" with all these talks trying to convince him to do behavior (set and enforce limits) that you yourself are not doing right now. Encourage him to take the link and see his counselor and then STEP BACK. Lead by example.

Stick to managing your own stuff.

• Become willing to experience "hard feelings" while doing your jobs. Let the feelings happen. Do the job in front of you anyway.
• Follow through on enforcing your previously set limit.
• Get your OWN flat without these people in it so YOU get peaceful times and breaks.
• Get your OWN counselor to help you if you cannot tell what else is in your bag of responsibilities and what is just not your job.

I think you are on the right path here:

I just realized, writing this, that it is possible that Jon might take me moving out because Lora isn't healthy enough as a "sign" that Lora isn't ever going to be healthy enough for him to have a healthy relationship with.

Sometimes it takes physically leaving abuse and being out of that "noise" before the rest of a person can hope catch up, begin to think clearly again, heal, and then reintegrate. "Mind and heart" come back later on. But they cannot come at all if the person is still living there in the FOG.

STOP talking to him about how horrible Lora problems are. Do not be creating the "little unit" of (him + Lora) vs the World That Just Doesn't Understand. That just shoves him tighter with her.

He may have some "White Knight" thing going on. That's for him and his counselor to resolve, not you. Encourage that instead. For him to seek outside professional help. You are not a professional.

I think the best thing you can offer? Is a different home to be in.

Then it really becomes clear for him to see.

• Living with Lora is like this.
  
• NOT living with Lora is like THAT.

Enabling him to better be able to see what healthy environment is and what healthy environment is not.

And you get you out of the Lora crazy either way. Look for the wins for YOU. Let Jon carry his own bag.

I am really sorry you deal in this.

It's on you to get you out of it.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from LizziE):

"First she said she'd never done therapy before, and she was afraid of it because it was unknown. Then she said she'd never done therapy as an adult before, but she did it as a child and as an adolescent and it was terrible (though she hasn't said how or why it was terrible), so she didn't want to do it again. She also said she doesn't really need it. She also said it was too expensive to be worth it. Then she said that therapy often stirs up old wounds and that there were things in her that she refused to revisit under any circumstance."

Well, then, she needs to propose some other method by which her behavior will improve. If she doesn't "need" therapy, she obviously needs something in place of therapy (and in addition to the meds). Wouldn't she herself admit that that's true?

Re:

"Well, I'm an angry person so I act that way because I just want to make people pay."

That certainly sounds like someone who's comfortable acting out.

Re:

"*Could* having PTSD and severe social anxiety reasonable excuses for her behavior?"

I don't think so. They could be partial explanations for her behavior, but I doubt they explain all of it, let alone excuse all of it. If what you're saying is true, then she isn't trying very hard to improve. Without that effort, she doesn't have any excuse for her behavior.

Re:

"It would be helpful to hear if others who had partners with those diagnoses have feedback on what could be attributed to those things and what couldn't be."

I haven't *had* partners with those diagnoses, I *was* a partner with them -- or with PTSD, and that I had anxiety as well kind of went without saying. I still have a lot of anxiety today, but at least it doesn't prod me into treating people badly like it used to.

And I think that PTSD and anxiety partially explained why I acted the way I acted, but not completely. The fact that I had "those excuses" also didn't entitle me to the cooperation of my victims.

For instance, if I went too far off the deep end, it didn't matter how much pain I was in or how desperately I needed her company, my partner Snowbunny would cut me off: leave, walk away, hang up, whatever. Not that she'd give up on me in toto; she would then attempt an email that said, "You're being abusive," or, "You're being an asshole," and, "I'll come back over if you can act more reasonable."

In my case, getting that email, in combination with her leaving which would hit me like a bucket of cold water, was almost always enough to convince me to calm the fuck down (and apologize). Not that I wouldn't have a new meltdown (x) days later; I would and the process would repeat. Snowbunny had a lot of patience with me over the course of months and years. And she had sympathy and compassion towards me for my own sufferings. But she didn't just let me "get away with it." I had to accept therapy, accept meds and med adjustments, and show that I was making the best effort I could to improve myself and, perhaps most importantly, show that I wasn't trying to excuse myself.

I had to show deep remorse for how I acted. I certainly wouldn't have gotten away with congratulating myself. "I'm just an angry kind of person, because I like to make people pay." If those kinds of words had spewed from my mouth, I don't think Snowbunny would have let me stay in her life for long.

Don't know if that helps, but that's some of my experience.
Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[LizziE]

You cannot dx, but hopefully it gives you a new perspective for what you might have on your hands.

Exactly. Which was part of the point of this thread. Hoping other people who know people who act like Lora have a different perspective than mine on how to handle it. Maybe I'm missing some things that - if I knew them - would help me to understand how to interact with her or deal with her.

Interesting you choose to frame it this way.

I would say me giving Lora back her rope and the reins to her life is being confident that she can hack it. That is not giving up on her.

SHE might say she is not confident she can hack it and people abandon her and waaaaah!

You're absolutely right. I frame it that way in part because Lora will see it as giving up on her.

But more than that, really, what it actually behind that thought is that I'm now willing to give up on living with Jon full-time. Because living with Jon full-time (instead of part-time) means living with Lora full-time. And living with Lora full-time means living with her abusive, controlling behaviors. Hence, the problem.

I would say me giving Lora back her rope and the reins to her life is being confident that she can hack it. That is not giving up on her.

SHE might say she is not confident she can hack it and people abandon her and waaaaah!

Before Lora lived with Jon, she lived with her mom. Who, as far as I can tell, took care of nearly everything for her. There was a period of Lora's life (where the PTSD comes from) that she lived with an abusive, drug-addicted ex. She has talked about that. I'm not sure how bad it got (as in, I don't assume I heard all the worst things). After she got away from him, she moved in back with her mom and didn't leave the house for two years. She says this is because of her PTSD.

I am not sure if I believe her about that (which I wouldn't say to her, it's just trying to further my understanding of her). As in, I'm not sure if she didn't leave the home due to PTSD or because she's a dependent person and didn't want to leave the home and her mom didn't push her enough for two years to get her out of her home.

Now that I know that Lora has has a life-long difficulty with anger and anxiety and a lot of failed therapy as a child and adolescent, I'm not sure how much is PTSD and how much is Lora wanting to be dependent and do as little as possible to take care of herself.

To get back on track, as far as I know, if Lora and Jon break up, Lora will move back in with her mom. Based on past experience, her mom will become her enabler again. Or maybe her mom will refuse to take her back (yes, I'm aware that I'm speaking of Lora passively, as a person unable to care for herself, as that is how she presents it herself), and tell Jon that if he kicks her out, she'll end up homeless.

I going to guess that you'll say not his problem. Rationally, I agree with you. Emotionally, I also agree with you but also see how much that knife of "I'm going to be homeless and it's all your fault" would twist into Jon.

She IS hacking it already.

I would say she's not hacking it, she'd getting other people to hack it for her. Which is maybe a semantics difference between the two of us, but when I evaluate her behavior, I see someone who either cannot handle life, or refuses to handle it and gets other people to handle it for her.

This is an important distinction for me, because before I got myself in better shape with my mental illness, there were things that I could not hack for myself. I was able to ask friends to help, and in some cases, I just didn't do things until I could hack them - so there was a period in time where I had some nasty bill collectors out make me pay for things I had defaulted on, but I just ignored it because I couldn't handle it. To me, that wasn't hacking life; it was cobbling something together that was enough to not end up homeless until I could handle all of life.

• My name on lease.
• I don't like living like this.
• Now what?

...

Here's another option if the lease is up soon -- like a month or two. Just decide you don't renew it. Then everyone has to move out. And you quietly move elsewhere on your own. Everyone holding their own rope, making their own plan.

Unfortunately, the lease was recently resigned, although there may be reasons to move out sooner rather than later. It's a long story. But it involves problems with the landlord that may need to be resolved by moving out.

Right now you sound like you are putting energy into getting Jon to decide to set his limits rather than enforcing your own.
...

Stick to your own stuff. Get your OWN counselor.

I think I am getting out of that. Not entirely, but as I said, I just laid down some new boundaries for what I need, and this weekend felt much better, as a result.

Though the things I laid down are temporary solves, for while we still all live together with Lora being the way she is now. If she doesn't improve, then she's out.

And I see my therapist on Thursday. Who is probably mainly going to tell me to move out. I know that.

I think the best thing you can offer? Is a different home to be in.

Then it really becomes clear.

• Living with Lora is like this.
  
• NOT living with Lora is like THAT.

Enabling him to better be able to see.

And you get you out of the crazy either way. Look for the win-wins for YOU. Let Jon carry his own bag.

I think one of the things I really need to do is set a "How long am I willing to see if Lora improves from therapy?" deadline for myself and an exit strategy.

To be clear, I'm not yet willing to stop living full-time with Jon. I know I'm not there. I'm not disagreeing what you're saying, but I can feel that I'm not yet there. Your words have logic that my emotions are not yet ready to latch on to.

One of the things that I do need, in order to get there, is an exit strategy. Because I know that as long as I don't have one, moving homes is going to seem like too much to handle.

So I think that's the next thing that I'm going to do. As I said, there is some funny business going on with my rental right now - I think I need to see where that is going to go, in part because it might necessitate needing to move out in the next few months anyway. So if that is necessary, then (to your point), that would be an ideal time to split homes.

Also, to be totally honest, one of the things that stresses me out ENORMOUSLY about moving is...I've written about this before. I'm currently partially disabled. I'm in PT. I've been trying different therapies for several years now, and it either gets worse or stays the same. There has been no improvement.

That means that, in order to move, I need to hire full-service movers, which is extremely expensive. On top of that, I am unable to do any kind of furniture rearrangement on my own right now. I also wouldn't be able to unpack in any kind of reasonable time-frame. And I grew up in a hoarded home, so moving is one of the few things that is ever triggery to me, because once things start going into boxes that are piled everywhere, I start constantly being extremely stressed and upset (which is why normally, when I need to move, I plan REALLY well, and purge REALLY well, and do all the actual packing and unpacking in an extremely well-organized and athletic frenzy that I am completely incapable of now and for the foreseeable future).

The point in mentioning all of this is that when I think about moving these are all of the things that crowd into the pack of my mind and contribute to me saying "no, not yet. I can't handle this yet" and why I also need to make a good exit strategy.

This is part of why I decided to go back to therapy, and am also considering looking into a support group specifically for people who are partially disabled, but "look" perfectly healthy. There is a lot of stress associated with that, which is part of why I had a think about compartmentalizing Lora's issues more (with my new boundaries). I did post here, out of a desire to understand if anybody else knows about these things, but I'm alternating the days that I focus on this, and the days that I focus on my stuff. Like - I took the weekend to focus on my stuff. I'm responding a lot to this thread today, and I'll continue to read it, but after today, I'll probably spend the next two days focused on my stuff again. Make sense?

 

[LizziE]

It helps a lot, Kevin. It really does. Thank you for writing all of that. Honestly, it is comforting to me, to read from the perspective of someone who does have PTSD and anxiety that it CAN be improved, and what it took to get there. Which isn't to say that I'd expect her to follow your path, but it's still...getting an inside look a way through.

I feel the same way about mental illness myself. When I was having hallucinations and psychotic episodes, having that (to me) didn't excuse my behavior, and I was desperate to get better, because I didn't want to be that way, both for myself and for the people who I love.

So I'm totally flummoxed by this. To GalaGirl's point about unhealthiness getting her what she wants, maybe that's it. She's got what she wants, being unhealthy. She'll mouth the words of wanting to get better, because she recognizes that she needs to do something to give us a reason to stay around.

That is part of why I wanted to hear about people who have death with this kind of thing before - from either side, really. It gives me an idea of what expectations are realistic for me to have. And then I can decide if there's anything in there that I can work with.

 

[GalaGirl]

I hope writing helps you sort. We are both posting at the same time, so I apologize if quotes get wonky, though since both of us are editing.

I am glad to hear you are going back to therapy to help yourself. That's a good thing to be doing right now.

I would say she's not hacking it, she'd getting other people to hack it for her. Which is maybe a semantics difference between the two of us, but when I evaluate her behavior, I see someone who either cannot handle life, or refuses to handle it and gets other people to handle it for her

Semantics. I agree with you.

I think she chooses to get others to do her stuff for her. Which is an unhealthy way of going about life. But does is it work for her? Yup. It works for her. She's hacking it her own way. Do I think her way is awesome or something I aspire to? Nope. Even if it works for her I still think it is messed up way of going.

You may have to leave her to it and back away.

You being afraid to disengage with Lora because you do not want to stop living with Jon full time? It seems to keep you feeling responsible for getting her to change so that you CAN continue live with Jon.

Those are not good reasons for you to throw YOU under the bus.

You don't have the spoons for this to go on much longer.

Even with the hurdles that moving with a physical disability may bring... I think you are right to focus on mapping out

• Decide the time limit for how long you want to deal in Lora wacky before pulling the trigger
• Decide the plan for moving so when you do pull trigger, it's just execute the moving plan. Rather than create the moving plan and then execute it.

I get that you have conflicting wants right now:

• I want to be free of Lora wacky.
• I want to live with Jon full time.

With internal conflict like that, If you cannot have both, then you are the only one who can decide which comes first. Then answer to the higher one you value.

To get to the place of (living with Jon full time without Lora) again in future? That may require a run of living on your own first so Jon gets space/time to SEE what a mess it is and to decide he's no longer up for living with Lora. Ultimately that part of it is his choice though.

But for sure (you living with Jon full time with wacky Lora) right now sounds like a PITA for you.

Could deal with the job in front of you in the present moment. One thing at a time.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from LizziE):

"She's got what she wants, being unhealthy. She'll mouth the words of wanting to get better, because she recognizes that she needs to do something to give us a reason to stay around."

I don't understand people who (are hurting other people and who) don't want to get better. I don't understand people who (are hurting other people and who) spin their condition in a rosy light. Like it's "cool" to be an angry person or something. I don't think it's cool at all.

If anything I went too far in the other direction. I beat the tar out of myself for every little mistake I made. Unfortunately, this kind of "guilt therapy" only pushed me deeper into the pit of despair, which made me feel all the more like a trapped animal and like I had to lash out to defend myself.

I'm sure there is a sensible middle ground, where you say, "I sympathize with myself because it is so hard to act right when I'm suffering from this mental illness. Nonetheless, the way I'm acting is intolerable; I must find a way to change it and improve."

Is Lora actually suffering, or is she enjoying the drama? One has to wonder.

 

[LizziE]

You being afraid to disengage with Lora because you do not want to stop living with Jon full time? It seems to keep you feeling responsible for getting her to change so that you CAN continue live with Jon.
Galagirl

This is part of why I've started stepping away from Lora (and giving myself certain days to focus on how I'm dealing with her, and other days that are no-Lora-ruminating days).

I don't feel responsible for getting Lora to change. Likewise, I don't feel like moving out is giving up on Lora. Listening to the way she says things and being around her is infecting me with some of her thinking that I completely disagree with.

I told Jon and Lora both that moving out doesn't mean the end of any relationships. While I was dating Jon, I actually had an extremely amicable moving situation split because I and my metamour (we lived with our shared partner) found we couldn't live together. We're just too different. We enjoy each other's company HUGELY, he and I do, but we just could NOT work out a living situation that felt comfortable for both of us. It was a completely amicable split. Our shared partner is no longer my partner, due to other things. At this point, he and I are actually closer than she and I are. But anyways, it was proof-positive that I can do amicable living-situation break-ups that Jon and Lora saw firsthand (I've had other amicable living-situation break-ups. They happen, ya know?).

I feel responsible for making sure that Lora understands when she does/says things that are dealbreakers for me in a living situation. That way, she can make an informed decision about if those behaviors can change. If they cannot change, we can't live together. No harm, no foul.

The abuse creates more dimensions than a simple "we're too different to live together". I think you and I have both said a lot about that already.

I know that I cannot force Lora to change. But I can remind her that the status quo doesn't work for me, and if it doesn't change, them I'm out.

It's both Lora and Jon who have put a far more dire spin on all of us not living together being a horrible thing. Don't get me wrong, it will suck and hurt like a motherfucker to not live with Jon full-time (not even counting moving stress and money stress). There will be a really painful period. But I am getting impressions that there is something more going on beyond that part of reality. Maybe Jon has decided, somewhere deep in his subconscious, that if I say I can't live with Lora any more, that's a "sign" to him that he needs to pull the plug. Maybe a part of him realized that he won't do it for himself, but if doing it is the only way that he an I can keep living together full-time, then he'll do it. I honestly don't know. But I do know that it seems like there is something even darker and more fraught inside both Jon and Lora when I've broached the idea of us no longer living together.


As for Jon having a safe place to go, if we no longer all live together, this is why I don't put a lot of credit into Jon having a safe place to go being helpful, AND why I started bringing up my concerns with Jon more:

Jon and I dated for a year and a half before we all moved in together. During some of that time, things got REALLY contentious between them. Jon was *this close* to breaking up with Lora around Christmas 2013.

I probably could have nudged him enough that he would have, but I view that as extremely morally wrong. I didn't have enough information yet, to feel comfortable doing much past being a neutral listening and pointing out the abusive things she was saying/doing (I now think he may have been not telling me all the things she was saying/doing). It wasn't yet clear that these problems were long-term between them. I was worried that me pushing him to break up with her would have been mainly centered in selfishness on my part instead of coming from a place of being concerned for Jon's emotional safety and health.

Anyways, during the time that we lived apart, and he had a safe space to go to (my place), I now wonder if that helped him stay in the relationship. He had a place to escape to. He could relax, let his guard down, recharge. And then head right back into the crazy.

Likewise, I've been bringing my concerns up more because 1) There are things she says and does that I do not want someone I'm living with to say/do and 2) I think that Jon tries as much in his own head to downplay the harmful things she says and does.

I think that I owe him and Lora (and myself) to speak up on the things that I can't live with, and make it clear that I can't live with them. It gives them both fair notice that it needs to change, if we're going to keep living together. Also, if something that Lora says or does is *really* bothering me, I'm resisting my natural inclination to try to let them roll off my back and stay happy because that fosters the appearance that things don't bother me when they do bother me.

My normal MO for life is to brush off the stressful things as long as they're not hurting something inside me, because life is too short to let every little thing get to me. Usually, that's a really healthy thing and helpful too - if I enjoy someone's company but they have a few grating (but not harmful/abusive quirks), I can brush off the things that bother me, and focus on what I like about them.

In this case, though, I think doing that is fostering a false sense of things being more OK than they really are.

Does that make sense?

Is Lora actually suffering, or is she enjoying the drama? One has to wonder.

I wonder that too. Given the way that she's bounced back from some of the drama that has happened in our home, I really do wonder.

 

[GalaGirl]

Maybe she gets off on Chaos Manufacture?

One of my wonky people enjoys that. Makes them feel "powerful" to bark and have everyone scurry. I don't bat an eye, and will not allow it around me. But it doesn't stop them from trying it on others.

I feel responsible for making sure that Lora understands when she does/says things that are dealbreakers for me in a living situation. That way, she can make an informed decision about if those behaviors can change. If they cannot change, we can't live together. No harm, no foul.

I think we sometimes have a semantics thing. Because I think you cannot MAKE Lora understand something she doesn't want to understand. Ergo you cannot be responsible for her understanding.

I think you express it better later down when you frame from your POV like this:

I think that I owe him and Lora (and myself) to speak up on the things that I can't live with, and make it clear that I can't live with them.

Those are the actions YOU can do. I perceive that as "I have to speak up and tell Lora what my deal breakers are. If she keeps crossing my line, we cannot live together. I will stop living with her."

If so, then yeah.... Set, articulate, and enforce your boundaries with both of them. Speak your truth.

My normal MO for life is to brush off the stressful things as long as they're not hurting something inside me, because life is too short to let every little thing get to me. Usually, that's a really healthy thing and helpful too - if I enjoy someone's company but they have a few grating (but not harmful/abusive quirks), I can brush off the things that bother me, and focus on what I like about them.

Yup. One can be easy going. But I am glad you see that it will not work in all situations.

Esp this one -- where you are bumping into abusive behavior.

Galagirl

 

[LizziE]

That is totally true, I can't actually MAKE her understand that anymore than I can MAKE her understand that moving out doesn't necessarily mean everything is over and totally fucked up.

But I can keep expressing the things that are deal-breakers. If it comes to the point of me saying "Sorry, too many deal-breakers" and she says "But, I don't understand, I thought things were fine" then I can say "But I told you on this day and that day and those days they weren't. If you didn't understand what that meant, I'm not sure what to say, as I clearly expressed it. But it doesn't matter anymore; we need to start making plans to move apart". and then go from there.

 

[GalaGirl]

I can say "But I told you on this day and that day and those days they weren't. If you didn't understand what that meant, I'm not sure what to say, as I clearly expressed it. But it doesn't matter anymore; we need to start making plans to move apart". and then go from there.

Yup. You can say that. Doing your side of the job and moving it forward. Good for you! Planning ahead to not let it go to circle conversation land.

Part of the reason I might sound adamant on that my stuff - your stuff thing is because I have wonky people. When I will not do their jobs for them and hold them accountable that it is their job? They will try to play that "I don't understaaaaaand" game to get themselves off the hook and to just to keep me there. They don't seek to understand, they seek to hog my time and attention. Negative or positive attention. It is all "attention supply" to them. I will not play.

I'm glad you see that in some cases, there just has to be a firm limit that you set with your people. Otherwise the shenanigans continue and that's not healthy for you to be around.

Take some time reading the Out of the Fog website, esp the toolbox. I hope things improve for you.

Hang in there!

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from LizziE):

"I think [brushing things off] is fostering a false sense of things being more okay than they really are."

You are proactively thinking about a future where Lora says, "But you never warned me!" You want to make sure you did warn her. You want to be sure within yourself, even if she refuses to be sure. I can appreciate that.

 

[LizziE]

It's a really good thing to be nitpicky on! That's part of what I meant by Lora's twisted thinking creeping into my thinking - I'm very much a person who takes responsibility for her part, and I did have a battle in therapy to learn what was my part and what is not my part and not take too much on to myself. I need to remember all those things and make sure that I'm not letting her (or Jon) push responsibilities onto me that aren't mine.

Yup. You can say that. Doing your side of the job They don't seek to understand, they seek to hog my time and attention. Negative or positive attention. It is all "attention supply" to them. I will not play.

I want to show Jon that link and also mention this to him. Because thinking about a number of the conversations that I've heard them have, I wouldn't be surprised if she was doing this to him. She's quite the smart person, but either has remarkable blind spots, or she might be is using "I don't understand" as a way to get more time and attention.

Re (from LizziE):


You are proactively thinking about a future where Lora says, "But you never warned me!" You want to make sure you did warn her. You want to be sure within yourself, even if she refuses to be sure. I can appreciate that.

Exactly. I'd had people in my life try to do that before, which caused me to learn that at some point, I had to get confident that I DID explain things in a way that most people would understand. If there is further misunderstanding, there has to be a point where, instead of keeping on trying, it's time to say "You know what? If you don't understand, then we must have such enormously different ways of communicating that this can't possibly work. So that's another reason to end this - our styles of communication are too difficult to work together"

Funny how the last time I said that to someone, they amazingly understood what I was saying. And didn't understand how that sudden understanding didn't make everything OK. Hmmm...